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Larry Williams Million Dollar Challenge

  1. Anyone had brought the Larry Williams Million Dollar Challenge Video Seminar? Any feedback from the video practical trading application?
  2. Do you have a link to that product ?
    What does it cost ?
  3. 1.Please read NFA "... deceptive statement " about Larry Williams result .

    2. Compare with another result*s .It is not correlated

    (Larry Williams 1987 year)

  4. please see actress michelle williams 1997 performance.

    is this evidence of a conspiracy OR simply good trader teaching daughter how to do it?

    what makes sense?

  5. From author point of view -to be very carefully ..

    With high chance that is only propaganda , Larry Williams
    won through multiple loss in offset client's accounts .
    Loss by client's accounts was more as win by L.Williams account .
  6. Tks for the feedback. Do any guys brought the mdc video (Adest or other source). Would like to have feedback from people who has brought the mdc video. Tks.
  7. There's a damn good chance that there's more "deception" or "propaganda" in your statements in this thread than there was in Larry Williams trading account.

    I guess you're aware that Williams trading account was thoroughly investigated by the CFTC and the NFA. They found no wrongdoing as you suggest.

    In fact, as I understand Williams was operating a "pool" at the time. He wasn't managing any individual accounts. The reason this is important is that in order to have done what you suggest, he would have had to always be right in his own account, and always be wrong in the pool account. Now what do you suppose the odds of that are.

    Conversely, if he made trades which he did not specify the account (illegal by the way), he would have had to involve Robbins...the broker. Now don't you suppose that when the CFTC investigated this, they would have been able to detect this? And again, let's assume that he guessed the market direction and was wrong. So now he has to place this in the pool account. But he would have nothing in his own account. LOL!

    What's more likely is that your information is just plain wrong. Doesn't change the record. Williams was written up for not publicizing an accurate record, which would have included the results of the pool account. The pool account records were terrible.

    If you're going to charge Williams with fraud, then perhaps you ought to cite something a little more factual. Because the CFTC didn't charge him with that.

  8. old - do not attempt to reason with sssss... This person is on a trading contest vengeance with no real arguments to support their case.

  9. How do you explains his daughters success then in 97'?

  10. nicely said, OT. thanks!

  11. wouldn't it be better if ssss would practice some sssst ? :)
  12. Please read my post and then draw your own conclusions:


    In view of all the information that is available on Larry Williams, I believe that thinking people can draw their own intelligent conclusions. As for those who are naive enough to to buy into his schtik, I think that they well and truly deserve anything and everything that they have coming to them. The only question I have for the latter group is: just how funky does something need to smell before you decide not to eat it?
  13. Thunderdog:

    I read your post. Note that I didn't post that Williams was a great trader. I don't really know whether he is or he isn't. What bothers me though is when someone starts to make allegations which seem to be unsupported. Especially those which would be quite serious if true...like those made above about Williams.

    Now, I note that in your post you make a series of what you call "hypothesis". In other words, to you it evidently is not believable that a guy could make money in his own account, and then lose money in a pooled account that he was managing. And therefore you come up with an "hypothesis" which in essence indicates tlhat Williams somehow put the losing trades in the pooled account, and the winning trades in his own account.

    The problem I have with your post is that it a "hypothesis". It was not something the CFTC or the NFA charged Williams with. Or, for that matter, Robbins Trading, the broker.

    Let me explain something to you. One of my early jobs in this business was first as a stock broker, both retail and later institutional. And at one point I was a commodity broker. I also was on the floor briefly. Now, I mention this because I do have an insight on how brokerage is done, how accounts operate, etc etc. I have seen every shabby little trick (I think), to include trades put into different accounts, etc etc.

    So let's start there. My understanding is that Williams managed a pooled account at the same time as he was trading his own account. One of your facts is that this pooled account was not segregated. Frankly, I find that difficult to believe. I would need to see some type of proof of that, and I note you did not provide any evidence. I would say that Williams own account and the pooled account would by definition be segregated. In any case, provide me the proof of that statement. It makes no sense at all.

    What might have been the case though is that Williams could have lumped orders together when he placed the order with the broker. In other words, perhaps he wanted 10 contracts for himself, and another 100 for the pooled account. So he might place an order for 110 contracts with the broker. Now let me tell you one thing....a broker can accept orders like this, but would want to have some prior agreement on how the split would work. The don't execute an order and then let the customer dictate a split of some type.

    As a commodity broker I time stamped all of my orders. I had a time clock sitting on my desk next to the order line. Orders were not necessarily time stamped in the pit. But you better believe they were time stamped at the broker level. Floor brokers might be able to play some games with an order, and did. Alot of guys were caught doing that.

    OK, so your hypothesis is that Williams gives an order to Robbins for 110 contracts, which Robbins timestamps, and then call Williams back with an execution. And you think then that Williams doesn't specify the split and Robbins willingly agrees to this, so that the execution sits there unallocated until enough time goes by to decide whether this will in fact be profitable or not??? I gotta tell you my friend, this would not have happened at the firms I worked with, and it would not have later happened with the firms that I traded with.

    Further, you're claiming this took place not just once, but for an entire year! And that later, the NFA and the CFTC were not able to sift through records and find any evidence of such an action.

    I gotta tell you. Your hypothesis does not hold water with me. I do understand where you're coming from. But the fact that an hypothesis gives you one possible reason for the events that transpired, does not make it true.

    I can't tell you why Williams had such a good record in his own account, and such a poor record in his managed accounts. But I feel no need to come up with any reason either, especially a reason that in essence accuses someone of fraud, when he was already investigated and not charged with that.

    I have managed other peoples money. I didn't like it. I traded my own money differently. I was too cautious with managed money. I cared more about there money than my own. And guess what...my record with managed money was not as good as my own because I was way too careful.

    In any case, again, I understand your hypothesis. I just don't think that based on the way brokerage accounts work, that it is very likely to have happened that way.

    As far as I know, Williams was charged with not disclosing his track record fully, as it applied to the managed accounts. That's what they fined him for.

  14. Not "then" but simultaneously.
    Hypothetically speaking, how could any outsider prove anything if Williams and the broker were in collusion with one another? Together, they were in charge of all the paperwork. The best you could do in such a case is consider the smell of the outcome: his account flourishes while client accounts are simultaneously decimated. We are talking about a black and white contrast in outcomes here. Both Williams and the broker were charged with minor misconduct together, so we do know they were not above holding each other's hands.

    Did they ever prove Al Capone killed anyone? As I understand it, the best they could do was convict him of tax fraud. (Oh, my...) In Larry's case, the best that could be done was for the NFA to to take full notice of a particularly unusual discrepancy in performance, as I noted in my post in that other thread. Of course, these are all hypotheticals I raise, eh?

    If you think that serious time stamp irrregularities were not an issue in those days, then I invite you to contact an enforcement attorney at the NFA. Apparently, the hypothesis that I presented in that other thread is not that novel. It is something that the agency had to deal with on a number of occasions with a number of different people. This is not pie in the sky stuff.
    The fines were in connection with certain disclosure documents and pieces of promotional material. The complaint against Williams was that he allegedy violated NFA Compliance Rules 2-9, 2-13, 2-29(b)(1), (2) and (3) and 2-29(e) in connection with certain disclosure documents and pieces of promotional material. He paid a fine of $13,000. Robbins Trading Company was alleged to have violated NFA Compliance Rules 2-29(b)(1), (2) and (3) in connection with promotional materials used by that company. It paid a fine of $15,000. Hypothetically speaking, I'd say someone(s) got off cheap.

    OldTrader, I appreciate your considered response, but when all is said and done there is an undeniable odor that seems to follow Mr. Williams wherever he goes, metaphorically speaking, of course. I just find it surprising that otherwise thinking people would not raise their guard to someone with his colorful history.
  15. First and last post in this neverending idiocy...

    1. Larry was actually in a 50% DD when the year ended. Why didn't he cheat the same way, or was he just messing with us, showing that he could lose too???

    2. His daugther's record is still #3 overall best, achieved years later. Was the defective system still in place?

    Oh, nevermind...
  16. Pekelo, you couldn't smell a flower garden if your nose was immersed in it. You and Larry deserve one another.

    You readily swallow his daughter's performance at face when it is clear that she is at best a trading dilettante, whereas there have been articles posted on ET wherein devoted students of his who had been to several of his seminars and devoted years of their lives to his methods and teachings and were in the hole for tens of thousands of dollars. True, it comes down to a question of acumen, but come on! Where's your judgment?
  17. Larry Williams has a mixed reputation on this board to say the least.

    The irony of course is that after his all time % return in Robbins cup which is speculated upon ad nauseum, the second greatest return was done by his daughter following her fathers bond hotline. In fact alot of guys followed the same hotline trade for trade as she did but dont have a chalice on their mantle.

    Why not? Think about it. More to trading results than just taking signals

    Indeed, Larry's results while impressive are also an object lesson. He did not take 10k to 1.1 million in 12 months. He took 10k to 2.4 mil in 10 months than lost 1.7 mil in 1 month then finished up Nov/Dec up another 400k. He let more than 100 % of his equity slip through his fingers unrealized.

    Remember this was 1987. October ring any bells? This is when his/clients accounts were decimated. In fact I think he was in Africa of all places on Black Monday. After that kick in the nuts what equity they still had in their accounts they swept out. Scared money. Typical behavior. Larry stayed in.

    There is no magic to Larry Williams. He'd be the first to tell you he's no guru. But at least he trades. I've learned a lot from him and Im grateful for it.

    Would I use any of his techniques? No.

    Is there a little bit of PT Barnum in him? Yes.

    Does he have some interesting ideas you can use as a starting point in your own thinking? Absolutely

    Caveat emptor.

    To the OP, did you have a specific question regarding MDC? I attended the very first MDC seminar so while I do not know anything about this cd, I can comment on the seminar.
  18. Against my best intentions...

    I appreciate the tender personal attack. I take it you didn't have a valid argument...

    Where's your judgment?

    Obviously I left it behind, because I lowered myself to debate you... :eek:

    Now have a great day, sunshine! :)
  19. Tdog, with all due respect, your agenda and bias here is very clear. please post FACTS instead of bizzare correlations between LW and AL Capone.

    I know you you know the facts, and KNOW that they don't match up with your conjecture. Classic bias case.


  20. :D :D :D

    i used to think highly of LW, now he is just another salesman
  21. OldTrader
    02-20-08 07:05 PM
    Quote from ssss:

    From author point of view -to be very carefully ..

    With high chance that is only propaganda , Larry Williams
    won through multiple loss in offset client's accounts .
    Loss by client's accounts was more as win by L.Williams account .
    There's a damn good chance that there's more "deception" or "propaganda" in your statements in this thread than there was in Larry Williams trading account.


    Dear Sir

    1. Author suspect ,that you reseived refferal fees from Larry Williams ... For each statements in this board about Larry Williams .Or from persons related to Larry Williams

    2. Please provide CFTC ,NFA,SEC,Court statement's
    that Larry Willimas have not any offset account's
    in time of contest in 1987 . Not with he's name ,not with name
    he's client's

    From all goverment agencie's


    If you can not perform that ,than statement of NFA (it was public on ET) is true

    Through this statement Larry Williams trading record
    have not any matter ,is only decpetive statement .
    fine of NFA is true

    3. Through method ,with which you try to defend
    Larry Williams -accusation shift in propaganda and deceptive
    statement from Larry Williams to the author

    exist folloving suspect's

    1. You are payed agent of Larry William's
    2. You are belong to some kind of sectancy ,as example -Scientology .

    Activities of Scientology not forbidden in USA ,but essentialy
    closely monitored /forbidden in Europha.

    From standpoint USA law you can provide this
    kind of "religion" in USA ,but that is forbidden in Europha
    through High Court .

    One of Ground is that Scientology sectancy used "fictional religion " ,VIP's persons in media with ob'jective -to take peoples money's

    Larry Williams person and method propaganda is related
    to ob'jective's to take foreign money -through teaching ,book selling,account management &

    All statement's of the author(ssss) are not direct ,not indirect
    are not related to ob'ejctive to take foreign money.
    Author is individual ,which performed participation in multiple
    paper money (to date) contest's in Europha and USA

    If you have any doubt ,you can complaint by USA court

    Best wish ...
  22. I started trading in 1995. after receiving some LW literature in the mail. ( I was a little more gullible back then LOL) I think it was the British America set that he was selling back then. Anyways I had mixed results for about a year and a half.In 1997 I heard he had a bond only hotline but that it was limited to a low number of subscribers. Now in my life I have never known that to be true when it come to any hotline etc. So I called and tried to subscribe and much to my surprise (I talked directly to Larry) he said it was closed and that if people cancelled etc. they would open up a few more slots. About 2 months later in the commodity timing newsletter he announced there were a few spots open. I went right from the letter to the phone and was again told that the spots had already been taken. (this time by his secretary I think Jennifer was her name. Off the subject but she was a very nice person with a great sense of humor) So a few weeks later (Sept. 1997) I decide to try again and without any questions Jennifer signed me right up. I was a little surprised and kind of wondered if she made a mistake but that was okay with me! Well between Sept and Dec were 3 months of fantastic trading. I prob have the confirmations slips buried deep in a box somewhere but I remember there being 1 loser right at the start and then there was winner after winner. And big winners not4-6 ticks but more like 1.5 pts (48 ticks). I believe my account did close to 60% in 3 months. Then Larry set up a deal with Robbings in Dec of 1997 that was based off of a very similar but slighty different bond only hotline. You deposited 10K in a Robbins account and they would do all the trades from this second hotline plus his opton expiration trade on a Dow Futures (which had just started trading at the time) A quick funny story there the option expriation trade was based on an bias the Friday before option expiration and and if I remember correctly was simply buy Friday before option expiration at a percentage of Thursday's range added to Friday's open on a stop. Exit using bailout(first profitable opening) there may have been a bond filter but I don't think so. Well since not many people who traded the hotline could afford to hold an SP over the weekend they decided to use the Dow Futures instead. Now the Dow had just started trading maybe only a month or so before and it opened a half hour before the SP and in the beginning this halfhour was VERY thin volume. Well apparently no one at Robbins or Larry thought about this and the first time we did the options expiration trade our buystops to enter got triggered during the halfhour before the SP opened. I don't know how many of us there were but lets say we redefined the defintion of slippage that day. LOL Okay back to the second Robbins bond only hotline. So you paid 150 a month per contract that you traded and you would increase or decrease using Larry's money management technique. I still remember that Dec. I had the two accounts going and money was rolling in, I was only 19 so you can imagine my state of mind and feeling of invincibility. ahh the memories. So in Jan. or early Feb I am trading 2 bonds contracts in each account and the wheels fell off the choo choo train. By April all profits were gone and then some. A good lesson. I guess. That's the thing with Larry He has monster years every 10 years or so (73 87 97 04) which generates publicity etc. but then he goes into a drought for 3-4 years. Hard to follow and make money.

    Regarding the MDC video I can't speak to what is on it and how good it is as I have not seen it. I did however attend the Nov 2001 MDC in person. We got a lot of information and alot of SP pattern trades. Unfortunately other than OOPS which I believe is still holding up I found most of the pattern trades to be a product of over optimization. He would optimize 5-7 variables DayofWeek Bond Market overall market trend as well as chart formation. So you end with a signal like this, "bonds >bonds 6 days ago and it is not a tuesday and 2 days ago was an inside day in the SP and yesterday was an outside day with a down close and today's open is less than yesterday's high then buy today at .3 of yesterday's range added to today's open on a stop." Everyone on those variables would have been optimized and if you changed 1 or 2 by just a little the pattern would often break down. So to the surprise of no one well I take that back actually I was surprised when the didn't work LOL like I said was a little more gullible back in those days. At the time Larry used 26 pt stops for pattern trades . I remember one of the first trades I did ( i had to do them on the mini as I couldn't afford 26 big SP pts.) I got stopped out to the TICK. Still remeber the feeling. Okay back to the seminar, we also got a few SP day trading techniques (his 4 minute breakout, triple trend, 3 steps up, trade no one wants etc.) There seemed to be alot of good information there but I was never able to make money using it. Although apparently some people did very well esp. on the 4 min breakout and to a lesser extent triple trend. Sorry for this turning into a book brought back alot of memories.
    PS I don't harbour any regrets about all these experiences. I learned alot from Larry about the markets , money management and always using stops. I was a complete novice when I started and his emphasis on those principles have stayed with me to this day and I am sure have stopped me from being blown out.
  23. Oh, the irony.
  24. There is no denying the bias. The only dispute is with whom it resides.

  25. truth is, tdog, i felt LW was a scam from the start, also.

    however, research and personal experience combined have led me to change my views on him. i now am convinced that he is a legit guy and has lots to offer the trading community. like him or hate him matters little to me, just realize that you are the one with the bias and apparent agenda.


  26. That was my personal experience as well
  27. I made an error:

    OldTrader, you are correct. In fact, I have no factual basis on which to conclude that Larry’s own accounts and those that he managed were not segregated. I apologize for this error. In fact, what I should have written is what William Gallacher had written on page 39 of his book, Winner Take All. And I quote:

    ”…Commodity Trading Advisors (CTAs) registered with the NFA are obliged to disclose their actual trading records to the NFA when soliciting public funds through promotions. A large part of the NFA’s Complaint had to do with whether Williams ought to segregate the results of his personal trading from the results of the accounts he was handling for others…”

    So, it was the results that were not segregated, and not the accounts themselves. My mistake. And it was this misleading advertising that led to the paltry fines that both Robbins Trading Company and Larry Williams paid. Further, this deceptive advertising led the NFA to make the following statement in its Findings and Conclusions as a matter of record:

    ”There is no question that Mr. Williams's personal trading accounts had a material effect upon his composite trading performance. The record reflects that for the first quarter of 1987, Mr. Williams's composite performance showed a loss of $6,122,281, while at the same time Mr. Williams's personal accounts experienced a gain of $902,599. The Panel finds that the fact Mr. Williams was making significant gains while managed customer accounts were suffering considerable losses would be a material fact which a potential customer would need to know in order to make a fully reasoned decision.”

    In the circumstances, I suppose it was the best that the NFA could legally do to warn potential investors of whom they were dealing with.

    Even so, and strictly for hypothetical purposes (of course), please bear in mind that the type of unscrupulous conduct I described as a result of the relative time stamp laxity at the time, could still have easily been perpetrated by those with an inclination to do so. In fact, hypothetically speaking, the poor results in the client accounts and the simultaneous outstanding results in his own personal account were not separate phenomena. Hypothetically speaking, they were the essential two sides of the same equation. Hypothetically, of course.
  28. I know. Also, the truth is that you seem to grow enamored of just about everyone with whom you meet who has any kind of notoriety or celebrity going. Please don't deny it, surf. You know it to be true.

    Since you speak so well of him and what he does, which is to write books and give seminars based on a reputation surrounding a single event that occurred over 20 years ago under questionable circumstances, answer me this: Which courses of his have you attented? Which methods do you employ in either his books or courses that you either bought or were given? Be specific since, after all, his methods can hardly be regarded as secret, regardless of what his book titles may suggest. What does he teach that is not absolutely generic and readily available just about anywhere else even at the time that he first wrote about them? What justifies the thousands that he charges for his seminars? How is he not a hack on the make? As I see it, this guy is nothing but a "me too" marketer, latching on to whatever captures the fancy of the day.
  29. As I understand it, you are accusing me of:

    1. Receiving referral fees from Larry Williams for my posts on this board.

    2. I'm a paid agent of Larry Williams

    3. I belong to a sect such as Scientology.

    And, if I understood the very poor English in which you wrote, if I don't like any of the accusation, I can file a lawsuit.

    Is that about it?

    Frankly sir, your post really doesn't deserve a response. But just a brief comment. The only thing Larry Williams was charged with was not properly disclosing his entire track record in his advertisements. That is, as I understand it, he only published his personal trading record, and did not present his record in managing pool money. he was fined if I recollect about $13,000.

    Now, I have my difficulty in understanding your extremely poor English. So what I can't tell is whether you are charging Williams with something beyond this or not. But there is nothing else. Williams is only charged with failure to disclose his entire trading record. The NFA and CFTC do not issue letters stating what Williams is NOT charged with.

    Your rather wild accusations about me shed alot of light on the type of evidence you find necessary and appropriate to make such charges, both about me and about Williams. The evidence you have regarding any of your charges about me is my posts here in this thread. And that I dare say is unbelievably flimsy. Hopefully your limited English will enable you to understand when I tell you that based on your post quoted above I think you sir are a complete nutjob.

  30. Thanks for that acknowledgment. I respect your willingness to correct the record, and the integrity that it took.

  31. Larry is both a promoter and a trader. I for one do not particularly care about what he did or did not do in the 80's. Is it possible he bent the rules a few times? sure. But I really don't know, and either does anyone here.

    THe fact is, he has written books and shared Ideas. I for one would rather judge him on the objective, factual things I can test and verify, rather than on guesses and conjecture about a trading contest 20 yrs ago. Based on my study of his works, I have come to the conclusion that many of his ideas have merit. In fact, for any system oriented trader looking for ideas, they are a more than decent place to start.

    On a less objective note, I have watched larry make a phenomenal string of successful bond/sp calls. Certainly partly due to luck, However I for one believe he does have a great deal of useful market knowledge and experience to share.
    Hey but don't take my word for it. Go code up a few of his ideas yourself and see if you find anything useful.
  32. LW's work on the COT report is particullarly eye opening.

    I reccomend his book on this subject 100%


  33. Your rather wild accusations about me shed alot of light on the type of evidence you find necessary and appropriate to make such charges, both about me and about Williams. The evidence you have regarding any of your charges about me is my posts here in this thread. And that I dare say is unbelievably flimsy. Hopefully your limited English will enable you to understand when I tell you that based on your post quoted above I think you sir are a complete nutjob.



    Dear Sir

    Only opinion of goverment agency as CFTC , SEC or Court
    with direct statment ,that

    1. Larry Williams not have any offset accounts
    by performing contest record in 1987 by robbinstrading.com

    2. Opinon of NFA about "Deceptive statement" is false

    Would have any value for author . More of them ,if you have any experienced(with 20 years of experience) goverment investigator by SEC,CFTC, any Court in USA ,which
    was involved in investigation to matter of Larry Williams
    please send contact e-mail to the author .

    In any another case author from statement of NFA and he's international experience(auhtor is prize money winner in paper money contest's in USA ,Germany and result secured by goverment authority of USA and Germany) have opinon

    1. Result of Larry Williams is falsificated

    2. Motiv for this falsification -to receive public attention
    and capitalize this public opinion through teaching ,book selling ,advice,foreign money management .

    3 .Method for defense of Larry Williams ,which used from your person with high chance have correlation not to simple
    payed agent - If can not sell ,good payed agent stopped
    activities to specific person or group.

    But to any kind of sectancy ,as example scientology

    Young adept try to defend reputation of the master

    your respectfully
  34. Evidently you failed your course "English As A Second Language". Not only can't you write acceptable English, you evidently can't read it. I won't be answering any post from you in the future unless you illustrate some type of reading and writing comprehension.

  35. #####################

    Dear Sir

    In case author against CEO of Thinkorswim and CEO of Marketzar USA court of IOWA was on side of the author

    It is decisive ... Have author any knowledge in any disciplin or not is not important .

    Solely interessed to have USA authority in any case against
    any broker on my side ...

  36. Dear Sir,

    In case elitetrdaer agisnst YOU ,
    Mao Tse Tung side of elittetarder

    Solely interressed to have author ssss
    act more like sssstt (silence)

    Yours honourable respectfully delighted.
  37. Solely interressed to have author ssss
    act more like sssstt (silence)

    Yours honourable respectfully delighted.

    Not the problem Sir

    Best wish ....

  38. OldTrader,

    L. Ron asked about you at the meeting last night. I told him you were trying to stay on the downlow while you were dealing with the naysaying users of prescription drugs. He said to make sure you understood the consequences (you will no longer be allowed to take long walks on the beach with Tom Cruise) if he does not receive your written confession and audit report by the end of next week...oh, and he says "Hi!"

    :) Ok, on a serious note and to avoid having to edit my own post as being off-topic...

    I had a very similar experience as several other posters on this thread. One of my first introductions to trading was LW's "Money Tree" course many moons ago. As with most newbies, the title did not set off any flags at the time. I actually learned quite a bit about risk control and the mechanics of trading from his book. His COT stuff was very good too.

    Had I received his flyer in the mail today without knowing anything about him, I would throw it directly in the trash without opening it, because I now know the signal to noise ratio of vendors is virtually nonexistant. But fortunately at the time I didn't know what I know now and it was actually a good thing (one of the very few times in my life that has been the case).
  39. LOL! I'm gathering you must have edited my earlier post in this thread. The one that now says "nutjob". LOL! Can't say as I understand how you got from what I said to "nutjob", but I do agree that he is a nutjob.

    Best wishes

  40. i havent purchased the seminar, but i own Larry Williams' The Million Dollar Challenge board game...


    ...the board game is VERY intelligent, it will po$itively impact your daily trading.
  41. I am amazed to see what people have written here that do not know the facts, have not take the time to learn them and delibertely attack my reputation.

    Please allow me to set the record straight (one more time) ;-)

    there was only one account i traded in the Robbins World Cup; that account was audited by the NFA and CFTC looking for that "second account'. If there was one--why oh why--would i have had an equity dip from 2,200,000 to 750,000 before trading it back to 1,100,000?

    I trade; i trade thousands of contracts a month and will gladly send anyone that wants my open trades--any day you chose--so you can see I really trade and profitably.

    Finally for naysayers; consider that 10 of my students have won trading championships as well as my daughter.

    Please do not fall for or continue these malicious rumors.

    larry Williams

  42. How is your tax evasion case coming along?

    Serious question.
  43. I have read a number of Larry's books, taken several of his on-line trading courses and attended his Short Term Trading seminar, where I had the opportunity to meet Larry in person. I doubt that any of you would levy such viscious attacks without absolute proof to Larry's face. He is a very kind, generous and humble individual who has provided incredible insights to help traders succeed. He teaches methods in his webinars and seminars that are absolutely not available in any books and that really work. He mentioned briefly in a recent seminar that his taxes were completed by a large accounting firm that made some mistakes which he is trying to deal with. I doubt that he can comment on a pending IRS case, but would love to do so if he could.
  44. You can get his products for free on scrapetorrent.com or eMule
  45. Coming soon. Larry Williams Image featured on burger king cups and placemats. Toy Larry Williams figure with kids meal. Part of 12 heroes of commodity trading series. Unreal!!!
  46. You're being sucked in by a marketer.

    Have anyone noticed for example how many '30 day challenges' there are on the internet, such as 'the 30 day $100 challange' for potential affiliate marketers. Basically, start small and grow.

    But IMHO they're all marketing tricks to help the people behind them get hold of your cash, ie you're being PLAYED.......
  47. the amount of bitterness regarding the markets would make for an interesting story.

    To falsely attack someone you do not know is just beyond me.

    The fact I have sold courses and taught people to trade seems to just drive some people wild. Why?

    All I can figure out is these people., sadly, have bee burned by the markets or my vendors so the lump everyone into the same category.

    I have also contributed hundreds of hours of free lessons on my website; no longer publish a letter and do precious little marketing as i am trading.

    The proof is in the pudding...my trading account is an open book.

    Thanks much to the students that are clearing up these issues on site

    Larry Williams
  48. You may be able to get some of his products, but I did not see any of the recent courses that I have taken in the last few years listed. Much of what I did see looks like it is in a foreign language.

    However, if you want to risk getting computer viruses and subject yourself to criminal prosecution for downloading pirated, copyrighted information, that is certainly your choice.
  49. lots of viruses out there on russkie sites..plus all this material is protected by copyrights.

    These sites are being shut down by the courts...ala Napster.

    BTW...My book royalties go to a scholarship at the the University of Oregon.

    and tax case is moving along...charges are inane; one is that i had several bank accounts!
  50. Just wanted to send you a friendly shout-out, it's always a pleasure to read your written word- be it trading related or a recount of your impeccable ethics.
  51. thanks for the comments..i think i will stay off line now unless someone really rankles me ;-)

    I have made my points--with facts--and there is not much else to say. My market comments are for free an on my site.


    good luck and good trading to all
  52. If a guy called Thunderdog shows up in the thread, just ignore him. He has some kind of disease or something.

    I would like to say thanks for the Williams indicator, my best strategy is based on it and it works in any timeframe. If interested, I can PM it to you.

    Thanks again, a fan of yours...

  53. money is free too, just rob a bank. it's easy and fun!

  54. I will be watching for Thunderdog; hopefully i can give him the facts and data he is missing to get him healed up


    sure please email to me

  55. Smartass, file sharers don't normally disclose sources on such public places and if I really valued Mr. Williams' products so much (never downloaded or read them) I wouldn't be disclosing where you can get them for free here and neither would I try to save some dozens bucks on his products. If anything, I did him a favor. Mr. Williams can now go after these sites that host his files without his permission and get them to remove them.
  56. as a matter of fact we filed a lawsuit in Federal Court this week against Scribd for copyright violations.

    Isn't this interesting the guys who attack me---rather personally--end up being copyright theifs.

    Ah...ya gotta love the world.

  57. Mr. Williams,

    Most people do not know ALL facts...

    Let' see what they are :

    You had an equity dip of 1,450,000 , that's about 64 % , you were lucky you had that drawdown after you made some good money ....

    After your 1987 robbins worldcup performance,you started In July 1988 the Larry Williams Financial Strategy Fund The 1988 fund lost more than 50% of its clients’ equity in barely one year, as reported in the October 1989 issue of Futures magazine

    In March 1989 the World Cup Championship Fund is started, managed by Larry Williams, Jake Bernstein and two others.
    The 1989 fund also lost more than half of its original equity by May 1990.

    You blew up your own fund in 1988 and another one in 1989 together with some others
    How much million dollars of others did you lose ?

    NFA fines Larry Williams for not reporting to potential clients that, while his personal account in a promotional 1987 contest was very profitable ( a gain of + $902,599 ), his managed accounts for clients lost substantial funds ( - $6,122,281 ). This constituted DECEPTIVE and unbalanced promotional material and disclosure statements.


    Making big cashingo in your own account BUT LOSING 6 MILLION DOLLAR IN MANAGED ACCOUNTS AT THE SAME TIME ?

    The World Cup Championship Fund in 1989 you started with Jake Bernstein(+2 others)

    Let's see what we find about Jake :

    "NFA FINDS BERNSTEIN USED MISLEADING AND DECEPTIVE PROMOTIONAL MATERIAL. Fined $200,000 and permanently barred from NFA membership. All appeals to NFA and CFTC failed.

    Footnote -- Commodity Traders Consumer Report, a respected futures publication, tracked the trades Bernstein recommended in his $895 flagship newsletter. If you had acted on these weekly tips from 1988 through 1992, you would have lost money for five consecutive years (assuming typical transaction costs)."



    You trade thousands of contracts a month ?

    Let's see how big you trade :



    In october 2008 with the increased volatility caused by the financial crisis you switch from 1 big S&P contract to 1 emini S&P.
    Is your trading account that small that it can't handle the extra volatility for just 1 contract ??


    Timothy Sykes was so upfront to share with the public how much he made trading and how much as a vendor.

    6 % from trading profits and 94 % from guru sales

    How much of your income is from trading and how much from sales ?

    In 1987 you multiplied your trading account more than 100 times but what did you achieve in 1988,1989,1990,....till now 2009 ?
    Are you net profitable over your WHOLE trading career ? (leaving out the blow ups of other people's money)

    Why didn't you try to repeat your 1987 contest performance ?

    Do you really need to convince people that much that you are trading by starting a website named "ireallytrade" ?

    Please do not fall for the deceptive practices of these vendors !

    Just setting the record a little more straight :)

    P.S. Honestly,can we still be surprised that you have a tax evasion case running ?

  58. [​IMG]
  59. RT's biggest william's critic, Thunderdog is afraid to have you confront him with the facts, LW. I sincerely doubt he will show up here.

    missed you at VN's stock talk this year, hopefully we will catch up next time you are in NYC.

  60. if you would like i will gladly sent you current positions, etc.

    I have never said 1987 was not a rocky road---it was---clearly.

    and the fine of $6,500 or whatever..some 20 years ago...One fine 20 years ago. Stack that up to EDFMan, Merrill, etc.

    but like i said i will gladly send current positions.

    the track record is on my website using a one lot position size as that is what most my subscribers traded.

    with respect to all

  61. How do you respond to Bill Gallacher's characterization of you in his book, Winner Take All? He takes you to task in his book with incontrovertible facts.

  62. An excellent post.
  63. Just for fun, let's assume he is. According to the 3rd party trackrecord he made almost 50K in 2008. If he did it with 1 lot that is 1000 points per year or about 4 ES points per day.

    That is one helluve average, I say... :)

    Of course doing the math never occured to you...Now go back and bitch about Puretick, you have a niche there...

    Come on Thundy, you don't have to use your Pureshit alias... The Canadian ISP is recognizable from the bacon smell... :)
  64. Poor surf. You choose your trading colleagues about as well as you choose (and manage) your trades. Good luck with that.
  65. Please try to curb your accusatory bullshit. I have only one name on ET. Ask Joe or whomever. If I have a single alias, I give you permission to have me banned. Moderators/administrators please take note.
  66. Shhhhh

  67. I have read this book and agree that it is good. However, his Picture Perfect Trading online course is centered upon one COT principle that is so simple and is so powerful, I cannot believe he revealed it. Unfortunately, it does not set up very often, but when it does, it works great.
  68. absolutely--- at one time, that was a serious serious edge.

    best wishes, surf
  69. how about posting your Sharpe/Sortino and Profit Factor? Your other statistics?

    Results mean nothing. Risk-Adjusted Reward means everything

  70. Those guys are on surfs trading team? How do you know?
  71. It looks like he was trading the big contract, not the e-mini, until October. Still, $49,000, not too bad in a tough year for most gurus!
  72. Larry is highly respected by some of the most successful CTA's, Commodity hedge funds, and private speculators out there. This is a stone cold fact. I have seen very close cousins to some of the strategies he has taught retail traders automated and traded by 1B+ Short term CTA funds.

    As I said earlier in this thread, I have thoroughly tested almost every concept from one of his books, and I found a good number of them to be of high value. I have found those ideas profitable in real time trading. For those who know how to take a concept and refine it, his books are full of good trading ideas.

    Larry has also been a great marketer of his information business. Anyone looking to increase their general business success could learn something from Larry's ability to communicate, teach, and market his business.

    But hey, if you would rather be the smug critic, go for it. I know that can be satisflying. Personally, I prefer pragmatic profits.

  73. Typical rush limbaugh ditto head response.

    What a bozo
  74. I agree that one of us is a drone. That you would associate me in any way with Limbaugh makes it fairly clear to the reader who's the ditto head.
  75. ahh you guys are just great in your spiteful attacks..you get so lost in your own angst.

    Let's see in one time frame some accounts i managed lost money--and i did as well, personally. Who in this business has not had a blow up at one point????

    You do not give credit for the accounts, like Susan Kringle who started with 50,000 and closed out at about 500,000...and then sued me saying she should have made more $$.

    Judge threw that out. (maybe shes Thunderdogs girl friend)

    And many others...you focus on one little snapshot in time Regarding that Book with the less than flattering comments...note the publisher of that book has now published 3 or 4 books of mine.

    But enough prattling back and forth.

    Thunderdog...lets go head to head trading, mano y mano. You vs me.

    We each put up $100,000, trade it for 6 months. Then winner takes the other guys money. Anyone have a 50% equity dip he loses and the other guys wins.

    Ok, Thunderog lets see if you can do more than bark and spread false truths.

    You hide behind some bogus name, have never written books, taught classes, just a dribble of negativity...so stand up and lets see what you are really made of.

    Or just shut up and go away.

    Larry Williams
  76. You're going to have to put some meat on those bones to make it edible.
    That's neither here nor there. I imagine that the majority of trading strategies have similar generic premises. However, the devil is in the details. The details, and their diligent application, separate the winners from the losers. Not that anyone should really expect to be given those details by a vendor. Williams's books are no less generic than any of the other thousands of books selling the same generic premises. But Larry claims to be giving you the "keys to the kingdom." His words. And his expensive courses and seminars outlining his generic premises don't speak well for anything but his own bottom line. Where are his customers' yachts?
  77. To "Thunderdog" and "puretruth"

    "IT IS NOT THE CRITIC WHO COUNTS; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena...."

    -Theodore R. Roosevelt
  78. geez thunderdog talk about out of context...i used those words "keys to the kingdom" in saying that the keys to the kingdom of wealth have to do with money management...not a trading system or technique.

    Let's see no reply yet to the students of mine that have won trading championships gone on to manage money rather well

    no reply to my challenge to trade 'mano y mano' to see whose real here.

  79. Dear Pocole,

    Ok, I see you need some help..


    Now take your calculator : $53053 with 1 big S&P contract > 212.092 points

    From october $ -3418 with 1 emini S&P > - 68.36 points

    Still following ?

    212.092 - 68.36 = 143.73 points for 2008

    divide by 240 > 0.598 points per day

    You only exagerated his results by 560 % LOL

    Now let's have a look at 2009 results :


    $ -2281 with 1 emini S&P ( Is Mr. Williams still scared ?) > -45.62 points

    Total for last 1.5 year : 143.73 - 45.62 = 98.11 points or 0.27 points/day(1 fu..... tick, isn't this what they call "marginal profitable" ?)

    The longer the time frame, the smaller the profits become, now what would be his results since 1987 ?

    Bitching ? No, just bringing up ALL facts , some of the facts Mr. Williams failed to disclose to his managed account customers in 1987 and for which he was fined ...


    NFA fines Larry Williams for not reporting to potential clients that, while his personal account in a promotional 1987 contest was very profitable ( a gain of + $902,599 ), his managed accounts for clients lost substantial funds ( - $6,122,281 ). This constituted DECEPTIVE AND UNBALANCED promotional material and disclosure statements.

    Deceptive practices are a part of gurucountry, just like Mr.William's friend(?), Jake Bernstein was convicted for.

    P.S. If you need private teaching "basic math" 1on1, my daughter of 11 might be able to help...
  80. Nattdog is one of the most decent and honest posters in this forum, so I think what he says is worth a second glance.


    Hey, how about we have a trading challenge between Larry and T-Dog, will that work for you guys? :D :p :)

    P.S. I see that topic has already come up, LOL (welcome to ET Larry).

  81. Looks like this "challenge thing" is typical for this LW character :

    "Larry, if someone doesn’t want to trade against you it doesn’t make them a fraud, it just means that they have nothing they need to prove. It truly is only those that are not successful in life / trading that feel the need to prove themselves to others, I am not one of these people. Did you consider that perhaps the real traders out there do not want to publicly broadcast how much money they are making to boost their own ego? I know of one trader that made 360 million in the 1987 crash and he remains anonymous – obviously a trader with nothing he needs to prove. So what you are saying is that every trader in the world is a fraud if they don’t trade against you.

    You obviously have a chip on your shoulder, perhaps you feel you need to prove yourself to others. I feel for you Larry, I truly do.

  82. It gets even better , not only does LW resorts to deceptive practices, he also threathens people ....OUCH

    "14 February 2005
    Caloundra Police Department


    Dear Sir,

    At 9.30am on 9 February 2005 I had a disturbing phone call from Larry Williams. He introduced himself, and asked if I had received his email to which I answered yes. He then asked me what I was going to about it, I replied nothing. The email refers to public information on my website about Larry.

    Larry then threatened that he was coming to get me and threatened me with violence. He said he was coming “fight” me, and I take this very seriously as he is coming to Australia in June.

    I don’t believe this man is mentally stable, and take this threat seriously.

    Enclosed is a copy of the email referred to above, and a copy of the contact person who is bringing this man out from overseas.

    The reason for this letter, is to advise you in writing of my concerns so you can keep this on file, and also so you can proceed with any appropriate actions for my protection.

    Yours sincerely

    David Burton

    16 March 2005

    Mr Larry Williams,
    You telephoned me on the 9th February 2005, threatening to publicly ruin my reputation if I did not remove information about you on my website in my article “Gann Discredited”. I note also that in this conversation, you even resorted to threaten me with violence.

    I have heard from people that you have been stating that I am a fraud.

    Firstly, we both know that that is not true. Obviously, you are retorting to my not removing the truths stated on my website.

    Secondly, if you believe that I am a fraud you should make an official complaint to the Australian Futures watchdog, A.S.I.C (www.asic.gov.au) and report the fraud to them.

    I have a licence with A.S.I.C, AFSL No. 241371.

    Larry, if someone doesn’t want to trade against you it doesn’t make them a fraud, it just means that they have nothing they need to prove. It truly is only those that are not successful in life / trading that feel the need to prove themselves to others, I am not one of these people. Did you consider that perhaps the real traders out there do not want to publicly broadcast how much money they are making to boost their own ego? I know of one trader that made 360 million in the 1987 crash and he remains anonymous – obviously a trader with nothing he needs to prove. So what you are saying is that every trader in the world is a fraud if they don’t trade against you.

    You obviously have a chip on your shoulder, perhaps you feel you need to prove yourself to others. I feel for you Larry, I truly do.

    As I am an honest and honourable man, I am prepared to help you remove this obviously weighty load you are carrying. I want to help you Larry – help you to remove the need within you to prove yourself. If you read “Magic Word” by W.D.Gann and practice what he is saying, you will see that he loves you and I am sure that you could learn to love as well. If you have any queries or require clarification on any point or theme within the book, I would only be too pleased to guide you through and be there to answer any of your questions.

    I must also express my appreciation to you, as the attention that you have brought by attempting to ruin me has resulted in a 20% increase in hits to my site www.schoolofgann.com. Enquiries about my workshops has also increased. If you feel the need to continue your attempts to ruin me, it actually seems to be working in my favour. Such a great marketing strategy, if you would like some commission on sign ups to my courses just let me know. We could work something out, and I once again would be happy to help you out.

    If you thought the rubbishing strategy was going to work, i.e. me lose business – you have overlooked one major point. You have mistaken me for someone who needs money.

    Thank you once again Larry. I look forward to hearing from you so I can assist you in your greater understanding on “Magic Word” and any other issues you feel you need to attend to.

    God Bless You!

    David Burton


    Go NFA at www.nfa.futures.org in the U.S.A and www.asic.gov.au in Australia to see if people are licensed.My license is AFSL No. 241371

    This is how Larry agent in Australia acts!!!!

    QLD Police Department


    On Thursday 21st April 2005 I received a phone call from a person who identified himself as “Tom”.

    “Tom” advised me that he had done the “Safety in the Market” Gann studies and wanted to talk to me about Gann and other market issues. We made an appointment to meet at 10.00am at my residence on Friday 22nd April 2005. He also provided me with his contact number.

    After this phone call, I had a chance to think it over. The more I thought about it, the more suspicious this man “Tom” began to appear.

    I subsequently rang “Tom” back on the phone number he had provided 0418........ to cancel the appointment. When I called the number he provided, it went straight to a message bank from a lady called Lyn Hunt. I found out Lyn Hunt is the wife of David Hunt – the person who brings speakers to Australia – including Larry Williams.

    “Tom” had said he was from New South Wales on School Holidays with his family staying at Twin Waters Novotel. I rang there and asked to be put through to David Hunt, and they did. I however hang up before the call was answered.

    This “Tom” was obviously David Hunt. With all these problems that I have been having with Larry Williams, it is obvious that Larry had asked David Hunt and other people to visit me.

    Considering that Larry Williams did threaten me with violence, as previously advised to the police, I feel this visit with “Tom” may have been a dangerous proposition.

    These are not the type of people we need in Australia.

    I now wish to pursue obtaining a restraining order against Larry Williams and David Hunt.

    David Hunts Numbers 02 95274690, 02 95015373
    and 0418638688

    Yours truly,

    David Burton


    Ya gotta love these gurus....LOL

    P.S. I thought I had it seen with Puretick...NOT
  83. puretruth, do you believe everything you see written on the internet ?

    Do you really expect 2 guru's who are competitors to be best buddies ?

  84. I'd rather it be 10k and see you run it to 7 figures again.

  85. Sure , I understand your point,(the accusations of DB could be made up,however all the rest I posted are FACTS) however those extracts from schoolofgann have been there for many, many years.
    LW could have taken legal action a long time ago...

    LW hasn't answered any of my questions so far ... (what does that tell you ?)

  86. What we can infer is that Larry's strategy for trading a small account is not scalable when trading 7 figures.

  87. Me too and a lot of others...and this time LIVE using a platform like Strategy Runner that is able to send out signals ( they have a guru function that allows sending out your trades,signals)

    The whole world will be able to watch, excluding any chances for fishy stuff that could have happened in that 1987 contest...

    LW knows that 100K is a lot of money for the typical ET guy, just set the amount high enough and nobody will be able to accept the challenge DESPITE THE FACT that they could make more that 1 tick a day (you see how screwed LW is)

  88. This was 1 of the questions to LW but no answers to any of my questions......
  89. Ive written extensively about LW and cant figure out the vitriol against him.

    He's as straight a shooter you're going to find in this arena.

    That doesnt mean there isnt a little PT Barnum in him but at least he tells you that upfront.

    Example, when Michelle won Robbins Cup she was 16! doing 15 hour days on Dawsons creek. Or whatever the hell that show was. In any case all she did was call up the broker and tell him to follow what the bond hotline was doing.

    But there were plenty of people following the same hotline who got flushed.

    Why? How?

    Simple $ management. You have to THINK about things. Have a plan. And THAT isnt so simple.

    LW taught me alot. One of the biggest things was how to think. Concepts not minutiae.

    It's not enough to say "but on page 138 paragraph 3, line 4 it says do this"
    and you follow it get flushed then say it not your fault.

    It IS your fault. For not developing your own strategies from the starting point of another concepts which is how we all start out.

    It IS your fault for following LW and blindly believing that his systems never lose.

    Especially when he tells you he has so many other revenue streams from real estate to diet centers(back in the day) and yes, system promotion to guarantee his Christmas because you never know when you are going to lose.

    Or when Christmas is going to come in the world of Trading. And that 90% of the guys in the room with you are going to lose. Mostly from lack of effort of thinking on their part and haphazard $ management.

    Learn from LW: The good and the bad.

    Dont try to be his clone. Or one of his sycophants. There are no gurus.

    Good luck with the gangsters at the IRS Larry, and I hope Michelle can/has found some measure of peace.
  90. I don't know'em from Adam, but you've got some pretty decent guys making exemplary posts about him, so I'd say give it a rest and go find some other guru/hustler/speculator to throw your vitriol at, there are plenty more around.
  91. Thunderdog is really quiet dog when confronted by his favorite trading vendor
  92. Really? Is that all you got? Glossing over salient facts put forward by William Gallacher in his book and then "cleverly" responding to legitimate questions (only some of which were addressed by puretruth in his excellent post) about your questionable conduct by challenging me to a pissing contest? Really? Did you apply the same maneuver with the tax authorities?

    That may well work for your devotees. However, please understand that I simply do not trust or respect you. As I recall, during that contest in the '80s, which you have been milking ever since, Robbins Trading Company was going to offer managed accounts by the contest winner(s). Meanwhile, you were already identified as a member of the "World Cup Trading Team" even while the contest was still under way! Foregone conclusion, anyone? (Am I the only one who sees an incongruence here?)

    Thanks but no thanks, Larry. Want to prove something to your legion of devotees? Enter a contest again, now that the markets are better regulated. But you don't really have to, do you? The starry-eyed keep coming, don't they? At least for a time:

  93. How right you are. And so, why not get your spoon, close your eyes and dig in? (Try not to inhale through your nose while chewing.)

    Meanwhile, we are in agreement about our belief that LW is the doer of deeds, such as they are.
  94. Exactly.

    You've built your vending career on the basis of the first trading contest over 2 decades ago, Larry. Now let's see you legitimize it. This isn't about putting me in my place. It's about you manning up to your own hype. Or might that put your vending "annuity" at risk?
  95. at last i think we know who thunderdog is..School of Gann Burton, et al.

    David, Thunderdog etc you are the ones that say im not a a good trader, that i'm some sort of low life hustler.

    i am the transparent one here I have given my name, real email and ...my track record is there, i have offered to show current trades, etc.

    But no, you still harp away with bizarre comments like i call someone in New Zeland or Australiua and threaten to come beat them up!!

    That is just choice.

    Oh, and still you refuse to compete---you are the one that threw down the gauntlet and now are totally unwilling to show any real performance, or proof me what you claim i am but trading against me.

    You hide behind email addresses.


  96. Perhaps you are confused. This thread, and others like it, are not about MY trading acumen.

    Am I to conclude that you will not take this opportunity to respond to Gallacher's scathing characterization of your conduct in point-by-point detail?

    Am I to conclude that you will not endeavor to own up to your own hype by participating in another contest to showcase your trading prowess? Surely you've gotten even better over the last 2 decades, no?

    Bluster. The final frontier.
  97. And you are just a vendor. The only thing you are building up is your own coffer, with the tuition and enthusiastic ignorance of others. And you are certainly refusing to prove anything, by repeatedly skirting requests to enter a contest under today's regulatory environment, or even just make live calls on a platform as described in an earlier post by puretruth. You seem to forget that I"M not the one selling anything.

  98. williams admits that it was skill and a lot of luck in the contest, what's the big deal? Michelle also WON the contest, as well as many of LW's students won other contests--- again, what's the big deal?

    williams trades LIVE with a million dollar account--name one other guru type who does this?

    LW's longevity alone speaks volumes----

    there are plenty of phoneys in this business, LW is one of the only legit ones--- why not use your energy on the true phoneys?
  99. I am all for putting 10 thousand in a IB trading account and seeing who runs up the most money at the end of year.

    whats the next step. I could not think of a better time of the year to commence.
  100. You're kidding, right? This is the guy who was going to answer all questions and concerns regarding his questionable past? And all he offers up is a pissing contest? But then he skirts requests to either enter a present day contest or make live calls on a suitable platform?
    Yes, you certainly are.
  101. When did being successful become a crime? Tdog, why not question any technique or approach to the market that Williams has taught? This line of debate goes nowhere. Nobody is being persuaded or can learn anything. Anyone with any kind of visibility has a history that can be criticized.

    Williams is still around and still trading. Longevity is a major test of success. How many hedge funds have been around since Williams began offering his workshops? He was early in some of his teachings, but his workshops were what they said they were. Looking at some of his older videos his lectures are the 'mother's milk' of most traders today. Who else was teaching this as well as Williams at the time he started? I wish Williams the very best, and many more years of trading and workshops. ET has seen its share of crooks, frauds, and liers. MarketMonk, Frans Shoar, ElecticSavant. Williams is nowhere near the fringe of ET to warrant these attacks.

    Tdog, the closer you get to 10,000 posts on ET the more 'strident' your post have become. You might want to reflect on your last few months of postings. Your posts don't seem to be making you any happier or any smarter...

    Good luck!
  102. I have no doubt that Williams is successful. It is what he is successful at where we may come to a disagreement.
    I think you may be confusing me with someone who comes to ET for any reason other than light entertainment principally during RTH. Frankly, I have a thing about pointing out bullshit when I see, hear or smell it. And ET offers such green pastures...
  103. Ok, so your posts are not making you happier or smarter, and if your posts are what you believe to be quality light entertainment; that is sad.

    Good luck anyway.
  104. Read my earlier post again. I did not write that I believed my posts were "quality light entertainment." That description emerged from your own imagination. For the most part, ET helps keep me occupied during a waiting game. If ET is much more than a source of entertainment for you, then it is I who wish you good luck.
  105. please send me the stuff Gallagehe wrote and I will respond...not that it will matter to you.

    BTW, i brought suit for libel against him, and Wiley, sadly i did not learn about the comments until years after they were written so the case with dsimissed, thanks to statute of limitations.

    For 20 years i have been transparent in my trading...whomever you are, you are just an antagonist, agitator...seem to be full of bitterness.

    What else can I do?

    I have offered to show my trades, every trade in my newsletter have been listed and audited by third party.

    So people market and sell stuff--like David Burton.Thunderdog, and Bill Gates. That's the way of the world and there is nothing wrong with with as long as its for value.

    everythng i have ever sold has been with a money back guarantee...more than what Thunderdog does.

    The only way i know of disproving your carping of my trading abilities is to trade against you.

    Since you will not accept that---in light of the false accusations you have made, i did not start this chain--I can only conclude you do not or cannot trade.

    If there is another way; count me in.
  106. Come on thunderdog. Post the issue from that book that perhaps sold 1000 copies. Post it!!!
  107. Back in the late 1980's, a Chicago dentist named Allen Ko attended a seminar conducted by Larry. I believe it had to do with his volatility breakout system which LW had named Trend Catcher.

    Ko took what he learned, contacted Mike Chalek to code Trend Catcher to run on an Apple IIe, devised a multi-commodity portfolio and turned 25K into over 2 million in 2 years. He would have had even larger profits had he not been in Hong Kong and not trading during October 1987.

    Ko fully acknowledges Larry as being highly responsible for his success. Prior to attending the seminar Ko had no system experience in trading.

    Chalek praises Ko for his steel like nerves and superior discipline in being able to trade a market approach through some large draw downs, an obvious characteristic of any trend following system.

    I knew Ko very well at the time.
  108. Since you claim you have already brought a libel suit against Gallacher (and Wiley), then you must already know what the content is about and don't need me to spoon feed it to you. I refer to ALL of it. As for Gallacher's stuff recounting your encounters with the NFA, they are spot on. I have copies of the documentation, which is identical to what Gallacher described in his book. I have also spoken to an enforcement attorney at the NFA a few years ago who confirmed that Gallacher did not take any content as it relates to the NFA out of context. The rest of the content can be checked in the periodicals to which Gallacher refers. (Stated differently, libel my ass, boyo.) Please enlighten me. What was the basis of your libel claim? Give me some details.
  109. all that took place 22 years ago...i don't recall it, have it nor do i dwell on it..as you dwell on me ;-)

    here's my email address...forward all you have and i will reply.

    fair enough?

    Oh by the way then we can set up a tradeout since you continue to doubt my abilites to trade.


  110. And here is Thunderdog's reponse:

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  111. Larry, the best advice you got in this thread was still this: :)

    Anytime when Ayn Rand or you come up as topics, he just can't help himself...We have ben through this several times already.

    What did you think of the strategy I PMed you? Pretty simply, isn't it?
  112. Dog has never risked in his life. He us likely an accountant or some kind of bean counter who works in a cubicle. He hates all who risk and win
  113. Also from his website on march 2006 :

    "He is the most highly regarded and well known short term trader in the world. No other trader is as accomplished as Larry Williams."

    LW seems to be a very modest trader, a quality of a good trader ?

    How does that match with the following ?

    NFA fines Larry Williams for not reporting to potential clients that, while his personal account in a promotional 1987 contest was very profitable ( a gain of + $902,599 ), his managed accounts for clients lost substantial funds ( - $6,122,281 ). This constituted DECEPTIVE and unbalanced promotional material and disclosure statements.

    The 1988 fund lost more than 50% of its clients’ equity in barely one year, as reported in the October 1989 issue of Futures magazine

    In March 1989 the World Cup Championship Fund is started, managed by Larry Williams, Jake Bernstein and two others.
    The 1989 fund also lost more than half of its original equity by May 1990.

    Mr. Williams,

    You have 45 years trading experience, where is your 45 year long TRACK RECORD ?

    1965 ? %
    1966 ? %

    2008 ? %
  114. Is this the same person?

    Maybe he is the greatest trader ever, but I would not get into the proverbial bed with someone that breaks the laws of our great country.


    An American futures trading guru and promotional speaker who promises to show people how to 'beat the share market'' has been arrested in Sydney for alleged tax evasion.

    Larry Richard Williams, 64, had just arrived on a Qantas flight from South Africa on Saturday when he was escorted from Sydney Airport by Australian Federal Police.

    The US Internal Revenue Service is seeking his extradition for $US1.5 million ($A1.99 million) in alleged tax evasion between 1999 and 2001.

    The Virgin Islands resident is alleged to have 'wilfully and affirmatively'' attempted to evade paying taxes on royalties from his 10 books and earnings from the international speaking circuit.

    Williams, who has twice run for the US Senate in the state of Montana, boasts he is 'the only futures trader in the world to repeatedly trade $1 million of his own money live at seminars around the globe''.

    He has written 10 books - nine on futures and stock trading and one on the true whereabouts of Mount Sinai.

    He was due to begin a month-long speaking tour of New Zealand and Australia in Wellington today, and had flown into Sydney at the weekend to fulfil media commitments.

    But instead he appeared today before Central Local Court, where defence lawyer Chris Watson described Williams as a well-known business identity who drew audiences of thousands to his workshops.

    'He came to Australia for the purpose of being interviewed by the Australian Financial Review, and he certainly hasn't been making any secret of his whereabouts,'' Mr Watson said.

    In the past few months, Williams had conducted seminars in Germany, India, South Africa and, most recently, Italy, where he addressed 3,000 people in three days.

    Promoter David Hunt, whose company Adest was sponsoring Williams' tour, said he had taken $175,000 in deposits from seminar-goers from Hong Kong, Singapore, the US, Canada, Japan and Australia.

    Mr Hunt told the court he was already $53,000 out of pocket, and that would balloon to $99,000 if Williams could not meet his speaking engagements.

    He offered $100,000 in bail and said Williams' partner, Louise Stapleton, could also offer a substantial security.

    Mr Watson said Williams' US lawyers had been in discussions and negotiations with the IRS over the issue for more than a year, and his Sydney arrest had come as a surprise.

    ''(His US lawyers) are of the view that Mr Williams was the victim of bad advice,'' he said.

    'There's certainly no suggestion of anything untoward.''

    Mr Watson urged Magistrate Allan Moore to grant Williams bail so that he may meet his speaking commitments while the US considered extradition action.

    The commonwealth opposed bail on the grounds Williams was a flight risk, with many associations in overseas jurisdictions.

    Mr Moore indicated he was disposed to grant bail, but stood the matter over until tomorrow to allow further evidence to be gathered from US authorities.
  115. I apologize for slightly editing your quote... :)

    ...but I am making a point here....


    He could have been somebody if it wasn't for his drug habits....

  116. Where do you get your $6,500 ?

    The only thing I found was $13,000 ....



    Why do you compare yourself with a broker ?!

    It is not about the numbers and/or the size of a fine but the specific reason for that fine , your deceptive practices indicate a lack of integrity

    A trader with integrity talks about ALL his trades : the good, the bad and the ugly
  117. Hey, you left out jack hershey and ProfLogic. :p
  118. Seems Like puretick is doing the same thing Williams was acused of. Running seperate accounts. One to attract investores that is fake then losing money in the real actual account.

    How ling till puretick is shutdown?
  119. F Williams is soo crooked how could he last so long in the publics eye? Maybe his broker screwed up back then and set Williams up. Who knows. But if he was crooked he would have been busted a ling time ago. The guy is in the spotlight all the time.

    Dog is a bitter man who lives rush limbaugh lustens to limbaugh. Takes a bath. Then orders a dominos pizza then posts on elite. Does the same thing everyday

    post you proof dogman. Williams proof is on his site for the taking
  120. True on phelps. I guess we are a country of second chances.

    but i don't like phelps either if more kids are going to smoke because of him.

    pot may not be the worst, but i still think NOT smoking is a better alternative, unless medically related.

    and i had another great point.....

    oh i forgot.

    where is my Cheetos as we sit here and ramble about who knows what for a billion hours?

  121. Really? And you're content with Williams's non-responses and sidesteps? I'm guessing that Benoit would be a tad miffed if he knew that a zombie assumed his name.
  122. Puretruth, I hope these are only rhetorical questions because Larry's response will be limited to challenging you to a contest. And why not? It will satisfy his target audience.
  123. Because there is an endless supply of shit-eating morons such as yourself?
  124. This is not quite as good as the "Daily Hottie" thread, but close! :D

    keep 'em comin', gang...
  125. Not surprisingly, your analogy is off the mark. Smoking pot need not necessarily be an affront to one's integrity. It need not be a question of honesty.
    On the other hand (alleged) tax evasion is hardly a private and personal matter. If you equate the one with the other, and you are comfortable with someone whose integrity was clearly in question when it came to honesty and doing the right thing, then who am I to question your choice of heroes? Worship away.
  126. LOL, I didn't see that you had crawled out of the corner with your tail between your legs. :p

    Your a one-man-band of dissent and discredit Thunderdog, while never, ever having remotely proved yourself using any of the criteria that you use to judge others.

    Make your live calls, post your blotters, win your competitions (or have your progeny win them, LOL), then someone besides yourself might actually listen to what you have to say. :D

    Until then you're just a clueless nay-sayer, whose time would most likely be better spent actually learning how to trade, rather than questioning the ability of others. :cool:

    Note: Pseudo-intellectual retort will be coming soon.
  127. LOLOLOL

    This guy spends all day on ET arguing in every forum that exists and he has the nerve to talk about people's integrity when it comes to trading. :D

    Too, too funny. :p
  128. Yeah, so long as heroic Thunderdog continues to fire away behind his alias while sitting arond all day waiting for his trading setup and posting in all the forums this thread could go on forever. :p
  129. Here's the part of the equation you missed: I never put myself forward as a wunderkind. I only rightly question those who do, whereas you just chew and swallow. And when a fool tells me to jump, I don't immediately ask how high. When I start making claims of superior performance or omniscience, then you be sure to take me to task. Until then, get a clue.
    Here it is: You have no underpinning. You sway with the herd.

    EDIT: Oh, thanks for reminding me: and you're an idiot. Here, let me prove it:
  130. Hey guys.

    Whenever you want to put your foot in Thunderdog's ass, just make sure to start talking about actual trading, I promise you, he'll run for the hills. :eek: :) :D

    LW already figured it out ... I bet if he dropped the challenge down to the 5K required for the current day Robbins Challenge, Thunderdog (what a name for such a wimp) would still run backwards as quickly as he could, crying about how he doesn't have to "prove himself". :p
  131. Larry bags another live one. And so it goes...
  132. I like others here, have read Larry Williams's books and received value from them, and are aware of both his and his daughters performance in the Robbins Trading challenges. :) :cool:

    We are also just as familair with your whining, pseudo-trader ranting where you spend all day in the political, religous and chit-chat forums on ET while pretending to wait for your next trading setup. :p :eek:
  133. Nah.

    We've seen what he's done, and we've seen what you've done.

    LOL :D
  134. Your bullyboy tactics may have worked well for you during your 8 or so years of high school, but they have since lost purchase. Real life hasn't quite worked out as expected, has it, "Mandelbrot?" And so, you have become an Internet thug, and a fairly stupid one at that. What a surprise. Have you met my friend Ignore?
  135. Still more backpedalling. :p

    My comments stand as made.

    You're a whining crybaby who criticizes any and everyone else, while never ever stepping up to the plate (claiming that it's "not about you"). :D

    LOL, grow a pair. :cool:
  136. Please come back soon Thunderdog.

    Now that people are getting a clear view of exactly who you are, I can't wait to continue exposing you as non-trading, hypocrital little nobody, who's opinion isn't worth the electronic pages that it's written on.
  137. Hey Mr. Hypocrite, let me know (either by posting here or via PM) when you want to take me up on your little challenge. :cool:

    Until then why don't you go slink off to the political, religous or chit-chat forums on ET. :D
  138. Profile For MandelbrotSet Search for all posts by this user.

    Date Registered: 12-10-07
    Total Posts: 6923 (11.02 posts per day)

    Profile For Thunderdog Search for all posts by this user.

    Date Registered: 08-07-02
    Total Posts: 9839 (3.81 posts per day)

    On the plus side, I suppose I should thank you for brilliantly illustrating that I have been spending my time quite poorly.
  139. i am a trader--i have ups and downs-- never sai otherwise---been doing this since 1962.

    i've learned a little.

    willing to demonstrate same. The dog remains silent.

    A loud statement

  140. You know folks, when people get desperate they always go to the "number of posts per day argument" ... that's when I know their punks ass is on the ropes.

    I spend my time on ET doing one of two things:

    1. On the ES Journal, making Live Calls and observations about the market and price. It's actually a pretty good group over there, and B1S2 runs an excellent journal. How's it going? Well, my last 9 out of 10 directional calls (Live Calls, including Stop placement) have been correct, so I guess the experience is having positive results on my trading. :)

    2. In threads like this one, bashing some moron (like Thunderdog) who just won't put up or STFU, and think that an anonymous internet alias allows him to just run his mouth without anyone getting "in his face".

    P.S. The offer still stands to take me up on your little "trading challenge" little crybaby (damn, I'm sick of these people). :(
  141. The dog only barks when there is a 10 ft distance and a chain link fence between him and his opponent. When they get in close he wimpers and runs with his tail between his legs. If attacked he will roll-over on his back and wave his legs around in submission.

    A lound statement indeed. :D
  142. Mr Williams.

    You know I have been a supporter of yours but your suit against gallacher defense makes no sense. The statute starts once you become aware of the the libel. Not when the libel is commited. What gives?
  143. This was on LW's website om march 2006 :

    "Larry Williams has taught thousands to correctly trade the markets, WON MANY TRADING CHAMPIONSHIPS, and has been the only futures trader in the world to repeatedly trade $1 million of his own money live at seminars around the globe."


    Mr. Williams ,

    Can't find anything besides the 1987 Robbins contest...
    What other trading contests did you win ?

    You are not lying about this ?
  144. Marketing hypebole.
  145. IlliamsWilliams needs to answer the gallacher allegation. If he does dog is fos
  146. What I don't understand is, why does someone with Larry Williams rep come here and slug out with anonymous forum posters, many of whom could not trade a $100 bill for a glass of water

    You are only going to lose by doing this. I am still having serious doubts that it is you. Boggles the mind??? :confused:
  147. Actually, it is you who remains silent on all of the allegations that have been brought forth. Your high-gloss, no-content responses may work for some people here like Mandelbrotset, who always seems to be just one psychotic episode away from spontaneous combustion. But thinking people know better. Fortunately for you, this group is not the one that pays your bills.

    You are just empty bluster. You know it. I know it. I just want you to know that I know it. Unlike you, I have never made any performance claims, therefore, my performance is not at issue. Your repeated and continued attempts to obfuscate speak louder than you know, except to those people whose noses you have already browned with your insights. Seeing as how people of Mandy's ilk are among your followers, perhaps I should wish you much continued success in your vending endeavors.
  148. No, you just criticize everyone else's, on Board and off it. :D

    LOL, maybe if you weren't such a LOSER, you might actually be able to make some performance claims. :p

    Then someone might have some respect for you on this Board, but as it is, you're just a troll, who I seriously doubt can even trade. :eek:

    Quick, lets have all of your non-trading friends come up and support you, LMAO.
    That's it for now little thundy-troll, it's a nice weekend day and I don't want to waste anymore of it with a hypocrite like you, who is never going to prove himself, while constantly demanding that others do so.
  149. He guy is just a cumudgeon and rabble rouser. Attacks the succesful. Try to justify why it's not him. Typical. Pay him no mind. Angry man. Nothing new here kids. Run along
  150. Actually, no. Only those whose claims are suspect. Perhaps the NFA is not a worthy arbiter for you, but it serves my purposes sufficiently well. And if you don't grasp the full import of of the NFA's findings, especially as it related to pointing out how LW was performing well while his managed accounts were simultaneously losing money hand over fist, and how it was important that an investor should know this, then there is little left for me to say. The specific wording was as follows:

    Findings and Conclusion:

    ”There is no question that Mr. Williams's personal trading accounts had a material effect upon his composite trading performance. The record reflects that for the first quarter of 1987, Mr. Williams's composite performance showed a loss of $6,122,281, while at the same time Mr. Williams's personal accounts experienced a gain of $902,599. The Panel finds that the fact Mr. Williams was making significant gains while managed customer accounts were suffering considerable losses would be a material fact which a potential customer would need to know in order to make a fully reasoned decision.”

    If you can't connect those dots, then perhaps now would be an auspicious time for you to sign up for one of LW's seminars.
  151. Check Amy puretick thread. They are doing the same thing. Losing big in managed accounts but making money in simulated account. All documented. Illegal??? Not according to puretick/profitnavigation. What gives?
  152. This now becomes funnier, post by post... Thunderbluster, err ah Thuderdog, big claim in life is he has no claim!

    And that i am just all bluster and hot air..no proof...that despite 10 books,(In all major languages) 20 years or so of newsletters, trading contests, hundreds of hours of free lesson on my website.

    And about a dozen unique indicators, WillGo, ProGo, COT indictors, Open Interst Indicators, several on how to measure Accumlation/Disgtribution...The first book ever on Seasonal Influences in Commofity Prices, First one ever on COT data (and the first to write about and show how to use it back in 1972)

    I have offered to send him my trading results, asked him to send me material from 22 years ago so i can respond...he has yet to contact me.

    He is so upset that i sold stuff; gracious this guy is a socialist or free loader I guess.

    There is nothing I can say or do that will make the 'Dawg' change his point of view...our mine of him.

    But wait...maybe there is;

    Let's get positive here---not negative.

    Thunderdog; you post one good and original trading idea-concept- and i will then do the same.

    Can't be some copycat thing..and I will post the exact stuff that gave buy signal in Soy Meal last week.

    until Tdog responds--positvely with something of value--I'm certain we all see what he is about, and i will remail silent.

    larry Williams
  153. Sorry, even that observation misses the point. At around the time of the NFA findings, it may interest you to know that trade time stamps were a troublesome issue. If you are interested in some background reading, you may find Brokers, Bagmen, and Moles: Fraud and Corruption in the Chicago Futures Markets to be an interesting book:


    As it happens, a few years ago, I spoke with an enforcement attorney at the NFA. In those days, there have been a number of suspected cases of broker/trader collusion where a trader would post initially favorable trades to his own account while assigning immediately unfavorable trades to his managed client accounts. There were a number of instances of traders doing very well while clients accounts were simultaneously suffering. The problem was proving collusion between broker and trader because they would be able to cover each other's tracks, particularly with the loose regulatory environment as it related to time stamps. For practical purposes, the best you could do was see if it walked like a duck and quacked like a duck, and then draw your own conclusions.

    Now I am not for one minute suggesting that LW would have engaged in such outrageous conduct. However, I find it instructive that the NFA saw fit to make the association of his personal account performance with that of his managed client accounts. One can only wonder why the NFA would have chosen to do so, and draw his or her own conclusions. And, of course, there was the small matter of both the broker and LW being charged together with marketing infractions or some such. I'm sure they meant well.
  154. Are you sure that is you, LW? I put TDog on ignore many months ago. it is like arguing with a plant.

    After decades of cultivating a major reputation, this is just beyond comprehension. Some come here to spam or build a reputation. You are coming here to demolish your rep by sinking to the least common denominator.

    If you just want trading camaraderie, then just post and exchange. Joe Ross, Marty Ruggiero and a couple other known trading personalities do so.

    Don't get into a quarreling match with trading midgets. Learn to use the ignore button and put Tdog and others on ignore.
  155. You're kidding, right? By your "key to the kingdom" standards, my trading is quite modest. Even so, I have not spent years arriving at what works for me to share it with a crowd. Only a fool or a vendor would do so. And I gather that even the best vendors tend to sell their produce when it's a tad overripe. Of course, there are those who sell weeds...but that wouldn't be you, would it.

    Similarly, I have no interest in making calls. There is nothing in it for me. Nothing. The acceptance of someone like Mandelbrotset? I can live without that. The idea of dropping my drawers simply because someone says so has very little appeal to me. Further, I have no interest in holding sway in an argument because of a trade log. If my argument cannot stand on its own merits, then it does not deserve to stand irrespective of my performance.

    However, you are the guru. You are the vendor. Your sales literature always, always, always refers to your contest performance over 20 years ago, and that you are one of the world's best traders. Who am I to compete with an icon? All I ask is that YOU live up to YOUR OWN hype. Nothing more. Nothing less. And yet, you continue to evade and obfuscate.
  156. ...said the plant.
  157. wow...very same legend himself ? i'd say some info regarding the IRS issue would clear many suspiciousness about his authority as only himself would know for certain. I've seen it's been first question to come right after :D but no answer whatsoever. I could say i'm Obama and point ppl to white house's email :D

    If u are, my respect, honestly. I'd have zillion questions to chat about, RSI...optimals and Ralph Vince...anecdotes...jee...what a surprise!

  158. You know what PT Barnum said about suckers.

    Here's a gem from Larry Williams' website:

    << Larry is many things, but he is not a CTA (commodity trading advisor). >>

    That's about sums it up right there. :)

    I wish good luck to those out there who believe in technical indicators & oscillators, and gurus like LW. You're gonna need it.
  159. Allen Ko just might disagree with you.

  160. i have offered to show my actual trading positions.

    not a single one of you has replied and sought to find the truth.

    you guys would rather carp away with loser laments--like Tdog who refuses to offer anything constructive.

    Then again, from the tone and tenor of all this I should not be amazed...

  161. Seems to me that Larry Williams has offered several time to "prove" that he trades by showing his positions. I'd be happy to review and report back if that is of interest.

    FWIW, I don't think there's any disagreement on the facts that LW has made money both trading and publishing. I see nothing wrong with either. I too, have multiple streams of income.

    Personally, I'd rather see Larry Williams contribute than spending his time responding to all sorts of old allegations.
  162. Thunderdog:

    C'mon Thunderdog. Of course you are attempting to suggest "outrageous conduct" on the part of Williams. That's exactly what you are doing with the above post. This is where you go too far. And frankly, you don't actually know what you're talking about. You and I have been down this road before. See this link:

    http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...ghlight=oldtrader larry williams&pagenumber=3

    Note your apology for some inaccuracies that you posted.

    Let's talk again about timestamps. Back in those days any broker who received an order from a client timestamped it. I was a broker back in the old days. I had a timestamp sitting on my desk right next to my direct line to the floor. Orders in those days came in over the telephone, was timestamped, then passed on to the floor, and timestamped by whomever received it there.

    Later on, as I started trading on my own, at one point I used a direct line to the floor from an office. When the phone was picked up they timestamped it and shouted and/or handsignaled the order to the crowd. Real simple.

    As a broker I handled some accounts who placed simultaneous orders. So for instance, let's say we had 10 accounts, each of whom wanted 5 contracts. When the order came in, we placed an order for 50, which were to be split in accordance with a preplanned agreement. Same timestamping as above.

    Now let's take Larry Williams. Let's say he's going to trade both his account and a pool account of some type. Let's say he wants 100 contracts, 5 of which go to him, and 95 of which go to his pool. What you are intimating is that he places the 100 contract order, which is timestamped on receipt, then relayed to the floor, where it is timestamped again, at which point the order is executed. Williams then does what? Observe what it is doing for the next minute or so maybe to see what direction is going, and when he finds out it's going in his favor, he tells the broker to put 95 in his account this time? C'mon TDog. At that, watching for a minute or so doesn't tell you where it's going to be in an hour, or tomorrow necessarily. The bottomline...brokers don't put in these types of bulk orders from an individual, and then him change around the instructions on what to do with it.

    Go a little farther. His trading contest lasted a year. You're suggesting not only did he do it, but he did successfully for a year? Absolute horseshit once again.

    Now, maybe what you're suggesting is that he would enter the bulk order, and then wait for a LONG period of time to see which way it went before telling the broker how to allocate it....allocating it to his account when it was successful. You don't think the timestamps would show this??? You don't think the authorities couldn't pick this up on an investigation of the accounts? Of course they could. That's why what you are suggesting here is absolutely false. And anyone with any experience from those days knows it.

    So that you don't continue to attempt to smear someone with these continuing assinuations, let me inform you what the problem was back in those days: order comes in to sell 10 at .80. Broker sells 10 at .80 for his own account, not filling your order. If it moves down, he's got a profit, you don't have a fill. If it moves up, he covers his position with your by buying your 10, and you are now filled with an order that initially is going against you. Now, that's not the Williams situation. Williams was not on the floor. Williams if anything, could have been a victim of this type of trade, as I was, and as many were in the Chicago based markets.

    So once again Thunderdog, Williams did not advertise correctly, and therefore received a small fine. That's it. You don't need to allow your imaginings to wonder any further than that. To do so would be entirely dishonest on your part.

    Williams has a public record for many years. He has many innovative techniques that he has created. And, he has offered to show his current positions. That's considerable transparency. All I see from you is accusations, intimations, some of them complete figments of your imagination. You want to criticize the guy criticize him for what he has done, or what he has been charged with, not what you imagine he "could" have done (even though you don't have the experience to know better).

    I'm not surprised that you are unwilling to enter a contest against him. To use YOUR tactics that you have used against Williams, my guess is you don't have the $100K, that you don't trade at all, unless it is strictly paper trading. But if you're sure that Williams is so bogus, step up my man. Here's your chance to make some easy money. Either that, or STFU.

  163. OldT, thats not the whole story. While your version is correct, at the time there was another way of selectively allocating trades, because the floor broker did not have to clear his order book until the end of the day.

    For example, 2 trades of say 100 contracts each of T-bonds, one order short, the other long, were executed in the morning. The floor broker who handled these trades and both accounts did not have to throw these trades into the actual accounts until after the close, therefore having discretion as to who got the winning and the losing side.

    At that time, 1980s, there was alot of such fraud going on (greetings from Hillary??)
  164. This would require collusion between the floor clerk, the floor broker, and Williams. And frankly would be the easiest to detect. That's why I didn't mention it. All it takes is to look back in the trades to see Williams always in a winning trade opposing a losing trade in the pool, trades allocated late in the day.

    Now, I don't know what they investigated...but from some of my past reading the investigation seemed to be fairly extensive, especially in light of some of the false charges. Such that I would think these possibiities were ruled out early on.

  165. Clearly, collusion by the floor broker was required. However, it was also possible to have your account directly with him. By giving him discretion he would have been able (easily) to mix trades to give the appearance of "normal" trading, eventually building up one account whereas the other was losing - over a longer period of time.

    Now, dont get me wrong, I am not saying LW did this. I am just stating that this sort of thing was possible and, in fact, was going on.

  166. "NFA fines Larry Williams for not reporting to potential clients that, while his personal account in a promotional 1987 contest was very profitable ( a gain of + $902,599 ), his managed accounts for clients lost substantial funds ( - $6,122,281 ). This constituted DECEPTIVE and unbalanced promotional material and disclosure statements."


    I brought this up in my first post, if nothing fishy happened WHAT THEN IS THE REASON FOR THIS DISCREPANCY, IT'S UP TO LW TO CLEAR THIS UP.....

  167. Nobody is interested in your actual trading positions, that's why...

    (what are your actual trading positions gonna prove BTW ?
    If you are going to manage money, people wil ask for your track record, if you want a job as prop trader, they will ask for a track record if you have one not your actual positions. )

    Most are interested in your 45 year long track record ( you say you have 45 experience as a trader)

    So far this is what we got :

    1987 :

    his personal account in a promotional 1987 contest was very profitable ( a gain of + $902,599 ), his managed accounts for clients lost substantial funds ( - $6,122,281 )

    1988 :

    The Larry Williams Financial Strategy Fund lost more than 50% of its clients’ equity in barely one year, as reported in the October 1989 issue of Futures magazine

    1989 :

    the World Cup Championship Fund is started, managed by Larry Williams, Jake Bernstein and two others.
    The 1989 fund also lost more than 50 % of its original equity by May 1990

    2006 :

    commodity timing : $33,821

    2007 :

    commodity timing : $54,486

    2008 :

    commodity timing : $90,218
    S&P daytrader : $49,605

    2009 :

    S&P daytrader : ($1,143)

    2006 to 2009 are for 1 lot trades..

    Maybe LW can fill in the performance numbers for the missing years...
  168. This was on LW's website om march 2006 :

    "Larry Williams has taught thousands to correctly trade the markets, WON MANY TRADING CHAMPIONSHIPS, and has been the only futures trader in the world to repeatedly trade $1 million of his own money live at seminars around the globe."


    Mr. Williams ,

    Can't find anything besides the 1987 Robbins contest...
    What other trading contest(s) did you win ?

    You are not lying about this ?

    P.S. The second time I ask the above, if LW don't want to answer, maybe some of his supporters can quote the missing contest(s)
  169. Mr. Williams,

    It was clearly illegal ( see the fine above) not reporting your losses in your managed account to potential clients.

    Now , how fair is it when promoting your courses,seminars to constantly reference to your 1987 contest performance and not talking about the losing managed account in that year ?!
    You have been doing this for around 15 years.

    Probably , most clients would think twice before signing up, no ?

    Instead of "challenging" an anonymous critic on a board, why not challenge yourself again in a more regulated environnemnt? sign up with Robbins and show us how much more you have learned since 1987...I guess you could easily multiply your account with 1000 instead of only 100

    P.S. And so the deception went on..
  170. The nfa found nothing illegal other than advertising hype. NOTHING!! After extensive investigation. What is wrong with you assclowns?
  171. Envy withers at another's joy and hates that excellence it cannot reach.

  172. Dear Clown,

    The following is NOT advertising hype :

    "NFA fines Larry Williams for not reporting to potential clients that, while his personal account in a promotional 1987 contest was very profitable ( a gain of + $902,599 ), his managed accounts for clients lost substantial funds ( - $6,122,281 ). This constituted DECEPTIVE and unbalanced promotional material and disclosure statements."
  173. From LW's website on march 2006 :

    "He is the most highly regarded and well known short term trader in the world. No other trader is as accomplished as Larry Williams."


    Sounds like he is the best trader in the world...

    Why then isn't LW included in any of Jack Schwager's Market Wizards ??

    Didn't I read somewhere that the best traders have no ego ?

    P.S. Envy, brother ?
    No, just making it clear how vendors operate.
    True market wizards make money from trading profits ONLY for which I have the UTMOST respect not by running seminars and challenges that bring in as much as 50*$4,500 = $225,000 in 3 days...
  174. Dealing with idiots is a waste of time. But here it goes again assclown. Do you know what promotional material is? It's advertising material idiot. Lw was busted for potentially false advertising hype for not disclosing losses. Are you not able to read? Or simply lacking comprehension skills? He has been in the nfa spotlight ever since with nothing revealed as fraudulent. Your a loser
  175. Every single marketwizard has had run INS with the nfa. Some much more agregious than lw.

    In addition your Heroes make their money via fees on opm. Not trading personal accounts assclown.
  176. True. But only as it relates to my earlier and unwarranted assumptions regarding account segregation. I have owned up to that assumption. However, that matter was not at issue during this most recent leg of the discussion. So let's move on, shall we? In any event, I suspect that "larrywms" is just one of marketsurfer's sock puppets, which is quite a role reversal when you think about it. But we were all having such fun.

    In the end, I hope y'all are real happy together. Maybe you'll meet at an LW seminar one day soon. Think how much you'll have to talk about. And I have absolutely no doubt that Larry would be delighted to see you all. He just gives and gives and gives. That's our Larry. I can already hear the jingle-jangle of the Keys to the Kingdom fluttering in the Money Tree. There is synergy in the air...
  177. I seem to remember Mandelbrat being challenged by a number of people in this forum when he attacked their ability to trade and he turned tail and ran from each one. I guess 8 years wasn't enough high school. He constant lossing trades he posts are a joke.

    Baron sent me a list of his aliases and it about choked my email inbox.

    TD be prepared for the Mandelbrat stalking to begin. It's amazing he has time to flip burgers inbetween posts. I've had him on ignore for a while.

  178. Define advertising

    Define promotional

    Then reread the prior post.

  179. Because he has already proven that he can't manage large sums of money and that his strategies work best with smaller amounts.... aka retail traders which are his target audience.
  180. If I may make an observation here. It seems that the people who found Larry are not unlike the people who found religion. They are afraid to question their faith with critical judgment because the façade might chip. And then where would they be? Perhaps that's why the Church of Larry didn't feel obligated to pay income taxes...
  181. Larry, you and I have a mutual friend in motivational guru, "PL".

    This site has turned into a joke over the last year with the constant flaming and trolling but some of the more aggressive internet bully multi-alias posters.

    Maybe if you started a journal thread of your own to show these wayward souls what you can actually do, maybe it would go a long way to squelsh all of the negativity.

  182. Your wrong.

    Some type of chicanery may have taken place in 1987 regarding advertising hype and disclosures--- BIG DEAL. LW owned up to it and paid a fine. obviously, since then, he has been in the NFA's short list without another incident. 22 years without another incident with the NFA, dog, when being observed closely and in the public eye.... does this not mean anything to you?

    many wealthy people have IRS issues. Being non American and likely a salary worker, not uber succesful--this is something you could never understand.

  183. Since Larry is hell-bent on obfuscating the past, you may be on to something here. Onward and upward, eh? What do you say, Larry? Here's your chance to do what you do best and, as a bonus, put guys like me in my place.
  184. Surf, if I may make a suggestion. When you inhale, try to breathe more deeply. In any event, here is Larry's golden opportunity to start a trade journal, as suggested by another poster. I just know he'll do the right thing, since he has blessed us with so much of his time already.
  185. Hey ProfLogic, you ya do'in? :p

    LOL, if you had a shred of honesty, I'd love to trade against you. The thing is, with all of your aliases, I really can't be bothered to take you seriously.

    P.S. If you want to go after someone, Thunderdog, check-out this moron. He uses ET as a free advertising forum for his crapped-volume bars, and has a burgoeing business selling seminars for thousands of dollars - and books for $100's, - in Asia (seems he had a few problems in the US with his information disclosure, LOL). :D :D :D
  186. I already post trading comments on Bollinger and KRs list.

    More that willing to do same here....but I'd like to see the mighty Thunderdog post first since it's his barking at the moon that began all this.

  187. Hey Prof, stop "phisihing" for pointers and worry about your own non-existent reputation. :p :cool:
  188. Harsh but true surf, harsh but true.

    +1 :eek:
  189. Larry, this site isn't about one person or their comments. Your comments on Bollinger and other sites are noted.
    Just post some of your trades and allow the entire site to see that all of the bad press you have gotten is just that . . . bad press. Here is a perfect opportunity to show a good part of the trading community your skills.

  190. well, tdog, based on what LW just said about KRs List--- he has just confirmed that he is actually LW---not a sockpuppet of anyone.

    Don't ask what KRs list is, if your not invited, you will never know...

  191. Funny, I remember you trying to do the same thing and being laughed off of the website ProfLogic (hence your new alias). :D :p

  192. everyone is looking for freebies.

    super funny!!

  193. Trading "comments?" I'm not quite sure what those are but they sound a tad...vague. No doubt, I am mistaken and they refer to real-time calls at specific prices.

    I will not be making any calls, as I have no reputation to maintain, no claims to substantiate, and absolutely nothing to gain by doing so. Am I then to conclude that you will not take this opportunity to re-ignite your base with your much sought after expertise and insight? Always conditions, eh Larry? Such a complex carbohydrate you are. The past shall remain murky, and now the present and future are obstructed by conditions. Quite a world we live in, eh?
  194. Oh, poo. :(

  195. even the resident cynic curmudgeon is looking for hand outs from those he despises.

    this business attracts the most bizzare, unique people on earth!

  196. I did not start this scrap--the dog did.

    I have offered to 1) trade against him 2) share trading ideas and specific trades if he will---he's the one claiming to know all about me, and all about trading---i want to see what he's made of.

    Seems only fair.

    and now we know...he's an attack only dog...afraid to show himself.

    I have posted tons of free material-specific trades---on my web site and there some on Youtube...for the last 3-4 years.

    All there for the world to see.
  197. "everyone is looking for freebies"
    Especially you.
    I thought you don't peddle or perpetuate gossip?
    I guess it's ok to be a jerk outside your own thread huh?
    I'm not proflogic and don't even live on the same continent.
    I do respect what he does though.
    I also respect Larry but that doesn't make me him.
    I respect PT Jones but that doesn't make me him.
    I really respect Jim Rogers too . . .
  198. "Handouts?" If you really think I would take someone else's trade calls, then you really don't know anything about me, do you? On the other hand, if you think that anything other than a full and proper real-time trade journal would even begin to convince me of Larry's capability at this point, then you remain in the dark, which has become a rather familiar place for you.
  199. I've never quite seen you describe yourself so precisely. You do have a smidge of humility.

  200. i never said you were proflogic or anyone else.

    i think you have me confused with another poster.

  201. Sorry, I wasn't aware that two people could post using the same alias.

    Registered: Apr 2002
    Posts: 14186
    08-31-09 11:05 AM

    Quote from MandelbrotSet:

    Funny, I remember you trying to do the same thing and being laughed off of the website ProfLogic (hence your new alias).

    everyone is looking for freebies.

    super funny!!

  202. Way to late here. You gentlemen play nice while the rest of us sleep.

  203. How are things in Asia bill scamp?

    Doing multi thousand dollar seminars in Asia prfloguc bill schcamp Charlie Dow? What name you use when doing the traveling snake oil show?
  204. Let us take a moment to assess where we are. Larry has graciously taken time out of his busy schedule to repeatedly post in this thread at some length. He has offered to add value, trade ideas, comments and so on. So he is willing to spend more time here than he already has, by his own account. However, what he remains unwilling to do is to simply provide an unfettered, full and proper real-time trade journal, for even a short period of time, even though that should require less effort. Posting trades he is already taking anyway is not as time-consuming as writing lengthy narrative commentary. But such a succinct journal would be most illustrative and would answer so many questions...

    How vexing.
  205. LOL :D
    +5 on that ZT!

  206. Tdawg refuses to do what he asks me to do.

    I find that vexing.

    I do not have any trades for today--i have open positons.

    I will glaldy send screen shot to anyone that asks


    email me at larrywm@att.net
  207. Why not just post it here. Shut the assclowns up once and for all. Www.tinypic.com use this URL to be able to get screenshot onto elite
  208. Nah, I said it ... no doubt about it. :p
  209. here they are my current open posiitons

    long 5 J Yen at 10653 (8.27)
    short 17 heat Oil at 19225 (8.25)

    screen shot availble of course i just dont know how to post pictures etc. here

    off line rest the day

  210. Current open positions. How charming and heartwarming.
  211. Really? Let me explain it to you by typing very slowly:

    T H I S...T H R E A D...I S...A B O U T...Y O U !
  212. LOL, busted!!! :D Nice work Gents.
  213. Link
    ... and there goes Bill Schump (pronounced "chump"), the biggest, lyingest, flaming troll on ET!!! :D :p :)
  214. Yeah, you can always tell by the screaming hysterics, the low post count while knowing every single detail about longtime posters here on ET, and the constant reference to constant volume errata. :p

  215. Yeah, you know everything about fairness, no ?

    Around 15 years you have referenced on your website constantly to your 1987 contest performance WITHOUT DISCLOSING THAT YOU LOST BIG IN YOUR MANAGED ACCOUNT IN THAT SAME YEAR.

    How many people would sign up for your seminars,challenges,etc...if they knew about both accounts ??

    "NFA fines Larry Williams for not reporting to potential clients that, while his personal account in a promotional 1987 contest was very profitable ( a gain of + $902,599 ), his managed accounts for clients lost substantial funds ( - $6,122,281 ). This constituted DECEPTIVE and unbalanced promotional material and disclosure statements."

    The best you offer is posting your open positions ? LOL

  216. this information is well known on the internet. this is nothing new, LW had issues with PROMOTIONAL materials. he was fined and moved on----

    did you know that LW shares his winnings back to the clients in the seminar?

  217. http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65159&perpage=6&pagenumber=9

    I do hope the 3-day seminar didn't cost too much more than $18.12.

    Perhaps it is not so surprising after all that Larry is disinclined to furnish a full and proper real-time trading journal...

  218. that's a interesting article. sounds like even the seminar attendees are more accomplished then william's detractors.

  219. Would you kindly explain how you arrived at that fascinating conclusion?

  220. one guy owns a jet helicopter, another makes 40%/year, another spent 800k on educational materials/seminars.....

    sounds to me like a fairly well off crew.


  221. Surf,

    Most of the time since 1987 , he referenced to his 1987 contest performance for promoting his stuff WITHOUT DISCLOSING THE LOSS OF HIS MANAGED ACCOUNTS in that same year

    Looks like you can do such if you are only selling courses,doing seminars and not managing money (luckily for LW)

    It is only recently that the reference to that contest is not anymore on his site...

    I know you like traders that blow up like Victor NiederHof..

    No surprise you like LW..

    "After your 1987 robbins worldcup performance,you started In July 1988 the Larry Williams Financial Strategy Fund The 1988 fund lost more than 50% of its clients’ equity in barely one year, as reported in the October 1989 issue of Futures magazine

    In March 1989 the World Cup Championship Fund is started, managed by Larry Williams, Jake Bernstein and two others.
    The 1989 fund also lost more than half of its original equity by May 1990."

    Maybe you know why LW never made it to Jack Schwager's Market Wizards if he was such a great trader ?
  222. And now for a bit of context.
    Sure. Only 40% with that kind of insight?

  223. well, i guess its not a jet helicopter..a helicopter none the less and satellite uplink--you price that lately???

    40% is fantastic returns

  224. Once again, and not surprisingly, the jet helicopter flew right over your head.
  225. Back to the drawing board and 19yrs practice - how's LW performing now?
  226. Larry would be happy to regale you with a list of his open positions...
  227. Um, LOL :D
  228. Perhaps before Larry's seminars. Not so much after:

  229. Now, his results for 2009 ?


    - $ 1618 or -32.36 ES points

    I made +29 ES points so far , damnit, maybe I should take the challenge if TD won't ... LOL

    Since jan 2008 : LW made 111 S&P points , about 1 tick/day
  230. Then it is little wonder that, according to his own web site, "He is the most highly regarded and well known short term trader in the world."


    And it looks like he's managing money again. Watch the video for his LWU Stock Investing Course at the bottom of the page:


    "...Most people think of Larry Williams as a commodity trader. They don't realize that I also manage a hedge fund for stocks..."

    Do tell, Larry.
  231. I am gonna calculate how much he made in the different instruments he trades and report back...

    111 points when the range(high-low) of the S&P is 780 points during that period
  232. "He is the most highly regarded and well known short term trader in the world.

    No other futures trader is as accomplished as Larry Williams."

    This is hysterical. I guess because it's on his website he can call himself whatever he wants.

    Like an old saying..."Those who can ..........do.....................those who can't....................teach".

    That about sums it all up.
  233. Looks like he made $ 90,000 in one year 2008 trading commodities holding for at least a few days.

    The es trades look like he got around the start and held till the end of day around every 5 days

    He also mentioned a hedge fund that exploded as why track records are not perfect, so I will continue with that article in the next post.
  234. AUGUST 28, 2009
    No SEC Penalties in Amaranth's Failure


    NEW YORK -- Hedge-fund manager Amaranth Advisors LLC won't face any penalties from the Securities and Exchange Commission for its high-profile failure, according to a letter the firm received from the agency's enforcement division.

    Amaranth, which once managed $6.6 billion but imploded in 2006 after bad natural-gas bets, was cleared of wrongdoing after a three-year SEC investigation into whether it misled investors.

    In a letter to investors reviewed by Dow Jones Newswires, Amaranth founder Nick Maounis said, "Needless to say, we are very pleased with this decision."

    Earlier this month, Amaranth paid a $7.5 million settlement to the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, which was investigating whether the firm manipulated natural-gas futures contracts months before its blowup.

    The natural-gas bets gone awry were made by former trader Brian Hunter, who is still being investigated by the CFTC for alleged manipulation and whose case wasn't affected by Amaranth's CFTC settlement.

    Mr. Hunter's lawyers were in Washington earlier this week arguing that Mr. Hunter didn't intentionally manipulate gas futures on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

    In September 2006, Amaranth had a large position in natural-gas futures, specifically a bet that gas prices at the end of the winter would rise relative to those at the beginning of spring. Prices fell, however, and Amaranth suffered billions of dollars in losses.

    At the time, energy traders and experts feared that the unwinding of Amaranth's energy positions, the remains of which were taken over by J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. and Citadel Investment Group LP, would create a selloff in the natural-gas market. They caused barely a ripple, as it turned out.

    News of the SEC's decision to not charge Amaranth was reported Wednesday by Bloomberg News.

  235. Timothy Sykes was so upfront to share with the public how much he made trading and how much as a vendor.

    6 % from trading profits and 94 % from guru sales

    If only LW was so upfront , we would know how close the numbers would match....

    THE BIG SECRET OF THOSE GURU'S IS THAT MOST (LW and TS being the exception) DON'T TRADE AT ALL and make all(most) of their money from selling courses,seminars...etc...

  236. do you prefer risky or riskless income? otherwise, what is your point?

    oh, i forgot, every trader on elite never loses and the market is risk free to the detractors.

  237. This is my point :

    THE BIG SECRET OF THOSE GURU'S IS THAT MOST (LW and TS being the exception) DON'T TRADE AT ALL and make all(most) of their money from selling courses,seminars...etc...
    They don't TRADE FOR A LIVING

    A real trader is 1 that trades for a living

    What is your definition ?

    Never claimed that I was the most accomplished trader like LW claims (not even that I was an accomplished trader)...what an ego... probably a good quality for a vendor

  238. no kidding.

    retail traders who trade for a living without other income or wealth/assets are extremely rare. those who do, without OPM, previous wealth, or income barely eek out a living generally.

    rarer still is the wealthy retail trader who got there strictly by trading.

    why to do you keep deluding yourself?

  239. I agree with your statement about retail traders.

    Why do you think that ?

  240. it's what the evidence clearly shows.

    lack of edge, discipline, starting capital, the need to make money to pay bills, high vig, wanting to gamble------- all factor into the reason why.
  241. My question was directed toward the "deluding part"

    Besides, people with a significant edge don't throw it out of the window for the masses to grab, why do you think those successful hegde funds are so secretive...I am waiting for the day that Citadel gives a crash course "automated trading" LOL
  242. Larry Williams sent me copies/screenshots with many days worth of trades. The data includes account information and individual trades with lots of supporting data.

    I'll post in more detail in a day or so, but I can already confirm that Larry Williams is NOT a one-lot trader as some here suggested. From a brief scan, individual trade P&L range from -20k to +100k and he trades lots of different contracts/markets.

    More in a day or two incl. a screen shot.

  243. sure--- your are correct to a point.

    however, there are EDGES that most traders don't know about that work nicely for small accounts but will not work at the hedge fund level as they can't scale. LW provides solid information that can help most traders, that's the bottom line.

    furthermore, some people enjoy teaching and helping others. normally, after they have all their wants and needs met--so the teaching fulfills other desires--fame, whatever. nothing wrong with this... there is more to life than $$.

  244. Ok, sounds good,looking forward to this..
  245. If I must say so meself. Lw has cult leader looking eyeballs in those videos. Applewhite anyone???

  246. Organizations such as the one you represent (puretick) would do well by following lw lead. Even the hypnotic eyeballs would suit alex and your team well.
  247. Nothing could be further from the truth...

    Have you seen all my posts slamming puretick ?

    Have you noticed how quiet Alex has become ?

    Alex doesn't have a single profitable statement to show unlike LW

    Please, leave PT out of this thread...

  248. The guy is a hell of a marketer.

    Are you going to keep advertising him for free ?
  249. Its not the mod doing the free advertising its you people. I just don't understand what you have against the guy. He has already said that he makes money and loses money trading. He teaches the stuff that he uses when he trades and tells people that his methods might not work in the future.

    He has put up a contest with anyone that wants to trade against him and he has also done that a few years ago on this board. So after 5 or so years, the same people are barking at him saying this and saying that, but no one is willing to bite him.

    He said he is willing to post screen shots of his trades to anyone that asked. He has admitted he has made mistakes and has blown out some accounts. WTF do you want the guy to do?
  250. None of you tough guys will take up Williams on his challenge? Scared of the old guy or what?
  251. Interesting to see if there are any Et'ers wanting to correct these figures.

    I was going to say that it's close to impossible to screen watch for 20 years and not come up with a way to beat the market substantially, but then I remembered watching a LW video where he explained how he stalked a trade and when it was placed he let it run.

    So when it comes to experience I count it by the number of trades made and the amount of screen time spent. Someone can have 20 yrs experience on longer swings but it equates to less than 1 yr of trading at the 1 min level.

    Unless you have MM tricks up your sleeve these kind of returns don't put bread on the table. Marketing or flipping burgers is essential for survival.
  252. "He is the most highly regarded and well known short term trader in the world.
    No other futures trader is as accomplished as Larry Williams."



    LW : 111 points

    I had a look at all the ES systems offered by striker.com for the same period or less
    They post actual results for their systems, you have to sign up to see those.

    Brigade ES : june 2008 - aug 2009 : 391.53 points

    Archer ES : jan 2008 - aug 2009 : 159.66 points

    Battalion ES : jan 2008 - aug 2009 : 201.91 points

    Charge Indices ES :jan 2008 - aug 2009 : 390.91 points

    Compass ES : jan 2008 - aug 2009 : 196.49 points

    Countertrend ES : dec 2008 - aug 2009 : 189.32 points

    Earlybird ES : march 2008 - aug 2009 : 269.9 points

    GINA ES : may 2009 - aug 2009 : 178 points !!!!!

    Impetus ES : jan 2008 - aug 2009 : 226.24 points

    LAXMI ES : sept 2008 - aug 2009 : 169.25 points

    RAM ES : aug 2008 - aug 2009 : 168 points

    Saturn ES : sept 2008 - aug 2009 : 295 points

    12 out of the 28 ES systems or 42 % make more points than our most accomplished trader...

    Ya gotta love the hype of those gurus...:)

    P.S. We, elitetraders love you, Larry
  253. LOL, I don't believe the performance of these systems (or stricker) for one minute!

    LOL some more, like you said, "you gotta love the hype of these gurus". :p :D
  254. Larry seems to be willing to do everything except provide a simple, full and proper real-time trade journal for even a short while. And it seems almost everyone here is willing to look the other way or give him the benefit of the doubt. Such kid glove treatment from rough and tumble ETsters for the self-proclaimed "most highly regarded and well known short term trader in the world." The Million Dollar Challenge guy is unwilling to post a simple, unfettered real-time trade journal despite all the time he has spent here, and you just give him a pass. You guys are holding each other to a higher standard than you are the man who essentially claims to be better than you ("the most highly regarded and well known short term trader in the world."), and he's right here, smugly posting away with impunity. Go figure.

  255. Those ACTUAL, not hypothetical results (like most other report) are reported by a broker named Striker based on results of accounts with them, not by some self-hyping guru.

    Striker has a clean record with the NFA


    Ya gotta love idiots like you ...

    Maybe you can help with naming the other contest(s) Mr. Larry won ?

    This was on LW's website om march 2006 :

    "Larry Williams has taught thousands to correctly trade the markets, WON MANY TRADING CHAMPIONSHIPS, and has been the only futures trader in the world to repeatedly trade $1 million of his own money live at seminars around the globe."

  256. puretruth, what am I missing here?

    $49,605 @ $50/pt = +992.1 points
    that's +82.67 points per month
    or 4.13 points per day
    all less 10% for slippage

    That's not setting any records but it's better than a lot of other shams and losses are transparent. There are bad months, a lot of low profit months and a few great ones that pull the average way up.

    At least the investor gets what they pay for - a roller coaster. LW gets to blow his trumpet and if he believes he is the worlds greatest, well he has good company here in ET.
  257. LOL :D

    Seing as how you're a former student of Puretick (and by association, obviously can't trade, and don't know how to learn how to trade for yourself), why don't you stick your money in one of those systems and see how it performs! :eek:

    Please keep us posted, you little noob fuqstick. :p

  258. I will help you , put up your glasses and then you should see that from jan 2008 till okt 2008 he traded the big S&P contract ,with the increased volatility Larry got scared and switched to the emini....

    "He is the most highly regarded and well known short term trader in the world.
    No other futures trader is as accomplished as Larry Williams."



    LW : 111 points

    I had a look at all the ES systems offered by the broker striker.com (specialist in automated systems) for the same period or less
    They post actual results, not hypothetical fluff for their systems, you only have to register to see those.

    clean record of broker Striker

    Brigade ES : june 2008 - aug 2009 : 391.53 points

    Archer ES : jan 2008 - aug 2009 : 159.66 points

    Battalion ES : jan 2008 - aug 2009 : 201.91 points

    Charge Indices ES :jan 2008 - aug 2009 : 390.91 points

    Compass ES : jan 2008 - aug 2009 : 196.49 points

    Countertrend ES : dec 2008 - aug 2009 : 189.32 points

    Earlybird ES : march 2008 - aug 2009 : 269.9 points

    GINA ES : may 2009 - aug 2009 : 178 points !!!!!

    Impetus ES : jan 2008 - aug 2009 : 226.24 points

    LAXMI ES : sept 2008 - aug 2009 : 169.25 points

    RAM ES : aug 2008 - aug 2009 : 168 points

    Saturn ES : sept 2008 - aug 2009 : 295 points

    12 out of the 28 ES systems or 42 % make more points than our most accomplished trader...

    Ya gotta love the self-hype of those guru's..
  259. The difference is that other ETers are usually held to account for their bluster. In contrast, many of you here are willing to give Larry a "greatness" pass. (How about those open positions, eh?)
  261. I think Larry's Pick Me Up stems from his (unchallenged) vending activities. So unless you've got that going for you...

  262. larry was in the boxing business, and would likely give you a run for the money in a marathon, sport.

  263. Yes, I heard he has great calves. Perhaps that's why your so enamored.

  264. he raises cows too, sport?? now i have heard everything!

  265. I communicated with a guy who worked at a futures prop shop and he told me that the top 2 traders averaged 2.3-2.6 points/day in the emini S&P in 2008,compare that to the 0.6 points/day for Larry in 2008
    And those guys were trading 100-200 lots.
  266. Your cap's on crooked, Gatsby.
  268. Reading Tdawgs relentless and sensless rants reminds of the story of Billy Graham being interviewed by an attack dog reporter...in a boat in the middle of a lake.

    When asked if he was the real deal Rev. Graham got out of the boat and walked..on the water...back to shore.

    Newspaper headline next day was, "Billy Graham can't swim".

    In my MDC real trading seminars i traded 1,000,000 for three days in front of people..not all session were winners..but in about 20 sessions i made $1,000,000 and paid back to attendees 20% of the profits...$200,000.

    Let's hear what the yelping dawg ever did ---other that 1,000,000 snipping emails ;-)


  269. flipper wouldn't have interest, but i would like to see the CTA be challenged by LW. That would make a good show here on elite.

    my money would be on LW, as i bet the CTA is either on a streak or exagerating.

  270. Larry Williams, the Billy Graham of trading. (Oh come all ye faithful.) Whose MDC seminars always make lots of money except when there is a reporter in the house.

    Any other open positions we should know about?

    P.S. I thought you said you weren't cut out to manage money after your fiascos several years ago. And now you're managing a hedge fund trading stocks, according to one of the videos in your web site?
  271. Yeah, yeah, Larry,

    You are a cherry picker , besides your success stories ,don't forget to mention your 6 million loss in your managed account in 1987,more than 50% loss in 1988 & 1989

    BTW : How many million you lost in those funds ? 5 , 10 , 20 million ?

    BTW: Where are the audits of those million dollar challenges ? ( I have never seen 1 audited track record of you)

    Why not post the results of those MDC on your website instead of posting here under "larrywms" ?
    You don't even put your website in your profile ?
    You feel safer to post under these conditions ?
    What a coincidence you made exactly 1 million ...LOL

  272. Surf,

    You know the broker Striker ?

    Just register and you will see actual results of all the systems under which GINA ES

    Flipper and PTJ are probably not interested, we know why....
  273. Okay but I still don't get it. Larry is up one month down another; up one year and down another. His average performance is not hot but he thinks he's a world class leading trader.

    Let's say he makes most of his money from seminars and training materials so he has to crow a lot.

    If he is transparent and the investor/buyer can see what to expect, then my hat's off to Larry. Good luck to you sir.

    Am I impressed? Goodness no apart from his self image, but there are so many sharks out there who post bogus returns and that makes Larry stand out from the crowd.

    It all seems harmless to me, unlike some others I could name but you know what, they would deny it till they die.

    If you don't like Larry's approach, don't follow it.

  274. no, never heard of it. those results should be scrutinized closely, regardless.



  275. They are 1 of the most popular brokers for automated systems.

    Doing business since 1997 and not 1 complaint since then.


    Don't ya think that a client who would see any significant differences between his account and the reported acutal results would file a complaint with the NFA ?

    Find me another broker who reports actual results and not hypothetical fluff...
  276. I've been watching Striker since 2005. There is significant survivorship bias in their posted results.

    This year's hot hand will not even be on the list in a few years. That's been the pattern.
  277. The noob just doesn't get it.
  278. I will be buying dec wheat...will not give my specific entry as...

    if you are dumb enough to be on this list....perhaps you are dumb enough to take a trade I post here (in honor of the TDawg) ;-)

    nonetheless...somewhere in the 497-504 zone i go long.Buyer beware..lots of my trades do not work out. But I have a stop in the 476 area.

    I will buy at least 20 (no, not eminis i don't trade them), hoping to pick up another 10 on a pullback after entry

    best wishes to all--even TDawg, AKA DAVE BURTON.

    Do not expect miracles but be grateful if the find you
  279. not sure what happened to the attachment
  280. Didn't expect more from you ..a vague trade recommendation ...

  281. Several trading periods, not all ? he is cherry picking again ? LOL


    "NFA fines Larry Williams for not reporting to potential clients that, while his personal account in a promotional 1987 contest was very profitable ( a gain of + $902,599 ), his managed accounts for clients lost substantial funds ( - $6,122,281 ). This constituted DECEPTIVE and unbalanced promotional material and disclosure statements."

    Do you begin to see the cherry picking pattern ?

    This doen't settle anything, if you see him tell him to put his trading statements spanning all his trading carreer on his website just like he did (If I remember correctly) for his 1987 contest.

    And ask him to put his website in his completely empty profile.
    Maybe he feels safer in a legal sense with just his "larrywms" username
  282. regardless of what email address Dave uses, puretruth or Thunderdog...he is correct...a fund that i was co-manager of had a 50% drawdown.

    Gee has that ever happened before? T Boone Pickens had a 98% drawdown last year. LTC a 100% dip in equity. Does that make them or me a bad evil person? Or not a good trader? Richard Dennis lost about 500,000,000 as I recall when he started his fund about the same time---1987---as i had my dip. John Henry went thru a 50% and multi year equity drop.

    That's this business.

    At that same time many of my clients also walked away ahead of the game. some did not. My own personal account went from 2,100,000 to 1,100,000 during the equity dip time period.

    Where are your books and records you attack dawgs...you sit on the sidelines and attack and have never done one positive thing---volountered any trading advice---just maligned me.

    then when confronted with facts 1) don't accept them and 2) revert back to trading performance 22 years ago.

    all while you are not even man enough to use your real name and hide behind aliases.

    then i give a trade and you say its not specific.

    i wish you well

  283. A reread for those who missed it the first time. Larry, thanks for sharing your trades from inside the arena. :D
  284. Good answer. Now let's get to trading guys and wish LW well.
  285. Oh, so you are a LIAR after all.

    I am not Dave Burton or anyone associated with whomever this person may be. I have no association with any Internet site and am not vending anything anywhere.

    What else you got, LIAR?
  286. Similarly, it would be surprising to find an eel that wasn't slippery.
  287. Hahaha. The truth comes out. Dog is a vendor who had it in for Williams. I knew there had to be some reason for his repeatative rants.

    The anger gives it away. Time for you to give it up dog. BUSTED
  288. Edited for accuracy.
  289. The school of gann? Dave Burton market must be crushing you for all the hate. Just say the magic gann word Thats some bizzare letters you have posted. Dog is David Burton. Too funny!!
  290. Here's the thing, Larry. I personally think gann is nonsense. If you were to do a search under Thunderdog with the key word gann, you would find a number of my posts going years back clearly showing that I think gann is baseless stuff. So, to suggest that I am Dave Burton from a gann site is puffery.


    However, since you and Zenshitster, your intellectual equal, brought this fellow to my attention, I went to his web site. Just look at what I found:


    You may have some redeeming value after all, Larry, despite all odds.
    How very gracious. And I wish everything for you that you deserve.
  291. see page 48

    Are you lying again , Larry ?

    This is what you said on page 7 :


    Again , making it look better than it is...
  292. Hey Thundedawg...prove you are not Burton.

    that should be easy.

  293. Funny coming from a guy who claims to be Larry Williams. I find it unlikely someone of his stature would waste time defending himself on a public board.

    I do think that Larry Williams has written some good stuff....and would be kind of shocked if he lowered himself to this kind of thing.
  294. As outlined yesterday, Larry Williams provided me with complete records of several trading periods spanning later 2008 through Aug 31, 2009. His only request was “all i ask is to be reported fairly”, which I hope I’m doing.

    Larry Williams is NOT a one lot trader as some had suggested. Here are the stats from the trading records:

    Avg number of contracts: 35
    Max number of contracts: 57
    Min number of contracts: 22

    Avg total position profit: 73k
    Max total position profit: 177k
    Biggest total position loss: (18k)

    Biggest position win: 120k (next 101k, then 89k)
    Biggest position loss: 18k (next 17.5k, then 10k)

    Tradables: JY, GC, KC, US, VX, HO, NG, ZW, BP, SP and several others.

    I’ve attached a small screenshot of some of yesterday’s (Aug 31 2009) data.

    In my opinion this settles the Larry Williams “dispute”: he clearly trades size, and has provided ample evidence of several very good positions with large profits at various points in time. I have no doubt he provided real data for his real account.

    Edit: I had transposed two numbers when posting yesterday (incorrectly copying from Excel). As I couldn't edit the post I asked for it to be deleted so I could repost
  295. Tdog, what is your love affair for ?

    You would have a case if the seminars were on how to cheat the irs and not get caught. Can he still trade ? I don't know and really don't care. At one time he could, and he capitalized on the fact to supplement his income. He has offered you a challenge that you are scared to accept. I don't blame you. It would be like challenging jose canseco to a homerun derby.
  296. I have not seen the underlying documentation supporting these numbers. May I ask what establishes their authenticity and validity? Serious question.

    Also, do you not find it at all curious that Larry would go out of his way so generously with his time and effort here on ET, but for some inexplicable reason refuses to provide a simple, unfettered, full and proper real-time trade journal for even a short period of time? Does it raise absolutely no flags for you when he has taken so much time already, that the one thing that would shut everyone up is the one thing he will simply not provide?
  297. Thuderwonder you have yet to prove who you are.

    i will gladly send you my statements from last year showing about a 8 fold increase in my account, I do not have all trade records for the last 22 years! Do you? Does anyone??

    just tell me who you really are..and that if it is as represented you will admit -here- that i'm not that bad of a trader. I will mail statements--or have my broker--to your home address.

    Larry Williams (really)

    I am fed up with these personal attacks on me so have come to defend myself and answer the Dawg.
  298. Several trading periods, sure, he just shows you what he wants to show, just like he when he brags about his 1987 contest and leaves out the 6 million loss in his managed account in the same year...

    They call this cherry picking your winners

    Instead of posting his statements on his website for all to see , very simply and direct , he sends a moderator on a message board some cherry picked records and you have to make an "objective" analysis

    LOL, talk about obfuscation...

    worthless, your "prove"

  299. You don't need to send anyone statements, just put them on your website, just like you did with your 1987 contest results.

    really, that simple

    Now , Larry thows his amazing records in the garbage. LOL
    Every serious trader keeps a detailed log of all his trades, the good the bad and ugly
    A vendor might only keep the good years, yes, we understand that...
  300. i never posted by trade on site as i did not have one the broker did.

    I offered to send Blunndedawg the data he refused it so did you

    I think you are both the same guy.

    please prove you are not.
  301. If you are willing to do all that, then what prevents you from simply providing us all here at ET with a simple, unfettered, full and proper real-time trade journal for even a short length of time? I just don't understand your reluctance. Perhaps you could explain it to me.
  302. there is nothing i can say or do that will change ThunderblunderDawgs view.

    he still will not reveal his real identities...i have offered to send complete statements (perhaps i will post them on Ireallytrade but that takes a little time--I can send them to him quicker...but he failed to agree that, that would appease him)...that's not good enough foir him..I showed an unbiased third party trade recaps with $100,000;s of profits---that was not good enough----I gave a trade set up that was not good enough.

    I think Puretruth/Thunderdawg/Burton are all the same cabal...a just another Micheal Moore.

    I'm outta here---say what you want littledawg...you will never give up.

    Peace to all

  303. You posted your 1987 monthly statements.

    You don't need to send anything to anyone in a private way, just post your track record from the last 40 years on your website , publicly, for ALL to see

    What you think doesn't matter, what your 40 years long track record is, DOES
  304. Sure there is! Just provide us all here at ET with a simple, unfettered, full and proper real-time trade journal for even a short length of time. And your job will be done! Do you have a congenital disorder rendering you incapable of interpreting what I just wrote? Or a congential disorder rendering you incapable of complying to such a simple request?

  305. Don't ya get it TD ?

    He is wiling to send you statements , statements of periods he made money of course but when you ask for an extensive track record over 20 or 40 years, he comes up with the excuse he doesn't keep such old records and when you ask him for a real-time trade journal, he cannot cherry pick the winners.....

    P.S. No wonder our "most accomplished one" never made it to Jack Schwager's Market Wizards

    Maybe this was the conversation that took place:

    Jack Schwager : "Larry , I might interview you for my new book, can you ask your broker to send me statements of your last 20 years ?"

    Larry W :"Hey Jack, I can send you statements of 1977 and 1979 only,the rest doesn't look that good, will that do ?

    J.S : " Larry , sorry, but we need all the years, you didn't have a blow-up year ?

    L.W. : "Jack, to be honest, I did"

    J.S. :"No problem , Larry, I will contact you in 10 years.
  306. i did show my heating oil and Yen position--that was not good enough--i gave trade parameters for wheat that was not good enough.

    can't say i have not tried and now i will get last years trades on site---

    i can report trades shortly after being filled would that be good enough?

    oh, btw, you have yet to prove who you are.

    Please do so

  307. what is your point? how does that prove anything, as he may just be lucky, or unlucky during that short period. unless you are looking for free trade calls from LW, your not making any sense .

    why refuse the proof he is willing to send you.

    you are a serious curmudgeon.

  308. I think your use of the nouns "proof" and "refuse" is inspired.
  309. Just provide us all here at ET with a simple, unfettered, full and proper real-time trade journal for even a short length of time. And your job will be done!

    Given everything else you are willing to do, why is this simple request apparently just too much for you?

  310. I agree, he might be lucky or unlucky in such a short period that's why I ask for his 20 years long track record BUT, hey, Larry does not keep those like he said a few posts back..
    What serious trader keeps a detailed log of all his trades ,anyway ?

  311. Already back ? a few minutes later ..

  312. LW wins and loses like all other traders. the guy teaches solid actionable tactics and actually has standard indicators named after him--- he trades lives in front of large groups, is willing to share his results here for the asking----et al

    what's up with the hate? i really don't get it.

  313. It's always comical to see someone, who has averaged about 1500 posts / year (approx. 7/trading day), insinuating that someone else posting a "real time trade journal" for even a short period of time will help them become a better trader.

    Who cares if LW posts 10 trades in row that are winners or 10 trades in row that are all losers? How exactly does that help you become a better trader?

    Sometimes reality is a tough friend, but if you've been posting here for 7 years at a rate of 7 times per trading day, trading might not be for you.

    Maybe you should write a book about your last 7 years, instead?
  314. I had screenshots with all positions, pending orders, account number etc. Based on that, I went through and summarized what I found.

    I also checked the a few of the prices against my historical database, and only found data that matched the historcal data.

    As I said: seems 100% legit to me. I found no evidence of photoshop'ing, tampering etc. Larry Williams does swing trade, and the gains/losses looked reasonable in the context of the price action of the previous weeks and days.
  315. Two things.

    First, your cognitive capabilities. My request of Mr. Williams has nothing to do with "becoming a better trader" and everything to to with legitimizing, at least in small part, his grandiose claims of superior trading performance. Any thinking person would regard my request as reasonable in the face of all the time Larry seems willing to provide us. Any thinking person.

    And second, I don't post only during trading days, so you may wish to try again with your impressive arithmetic prowess. (But you may want to go slowly this time, because even if I did only post on trading days, your numbers would still be off.)

    Oh, excellent choice of user name, by the way.
  316. Well, if you are willing to accept at face unaudited trading records from the man who claims on his own web site to be "the most highly regarded and well known short term trader in the world," despite an interesting and colorful past, then who am I to question what you find acceptable? However, I note that you did not answer the second question in my earlier post:
  317. I guess we all get to decide how we want to spend our time.

    If you feel that becoming the "Consumer Reports" for traders is your calling, then good luck with it.

  318. If you spent half as much time on becoming a better trader instead of arguing about things you don't believe in such as Larry or GOD then maybe you would actually turn the corner. Your closed mind is your biggest obstacle in this journey.
  319. Tell you what. You try not to worry about my trading, and I'll try not to worry about your judgment.

    P.S. Your "open" mind is the biggest opportunity in Larry's journey. Have you signed up yet for his "Million Dollar Keys to the Kingdom Money Tree" seminar jamboree? Operators are standing by.
  320. I'd like to see you do exactly the same. Personally, I don't think you trade, but a "simple, unfettered, full and proper trade journal for even a short length of time" would clarify this for all of us who are suspicious.

  321. I can live with your suspicions about me. I'm just an anonymous Internet poster with time on my hands. But look at the title of this thread. It's about Larry Williams, "the most highly regarded and well known short term trader in the world. No other futures trader is as accomplished as Larry Williams."


    (You're welcome for the plug, Larry.)

    So if "the most highly regarded and well known short term trader in the world" deigns to speak with us at considerable length, is it so untoward to ask him for a smudge of real-time proof? We are talking, after all, about "the most highly regarded and well known short term trader in the world. No other futures trader is as accomplished as Larry Williams."

    He is a giant among men, and here you are protecting him like he's your little brother. You're lucky Larry evidently doesn't insult so easily, otherwise he might find your conduct rather patronizing and condescending.

    I'm reminded of a prior post in this thread...
  322. I think that's a fair request.
  323. "Fair and Balanced?"
  324. Yep, that's my definite opinion. We registered at this site about the same time, yet you have 3X as many posts. And amongst those posts are posts going back months and years regarding Larry Williams, where you have pounded him unmercifully.

    I think it only fitting that you provide a "simple, unfettered, full and proper trade journal for even a short length of time" . Don't continue to dodge. We're no longer asking you to compete with Larry. There's no bet at stake here. Just provide the proof that you do in fact trade.

  325. Tdog, I am not convinced you are debating with the real larry williams. So far all I have seen posted is material that anyone can get from his website. Might want to prove the identity before you attack.

  326. What will a paper traded journal prove to you ?
  327. But I'm having so much fun. Don't spoil it for me.
  328. I never made any claims whatsoever about my trading performance and, therefore, I have nothing to prove. For all intents and purposes, my own trading, such as it is, is a non sequitur insofar as this thread is concerned, and the product of Larry's obfuscation and misdirection (which you bought into completely, by the way). However, when other posters here at ET make boisterous claims, they are taken to task and rightly so. But not Larry. He's your sacred cow. (It must be those calves of his that I read about.)
  329. I have read a lot of hateful criticism on this thread directed at Larry Williams and I need to weigh in on it...

    It is obvious that those of you who personally attack Larry Williams are just envious of his success, and you are threatened by the fact that he gives so much of his time, knowledge and insight to help average people become great traders.

    I am an owner of a trucking company, but I also trade index and commodity futures part-time, but hopefully full-time someday.

    I bought a copy of Larry Williams' 2009 Forecast in January of this year. I can tell you without a doubt that Larry still has "the touch" and a great talent for forecasting the markets. I have been amazed at the accuracy in which his forecast has called all the major highs and lows in the US Stock Market so far this year.

    In February of this year, I had approx. $35,000 in my account. I traded that account using only Larry's 2009 Forecast for the US Stock Market, and I only traded the S&P 500. That same account has grown to over $144,000 since his first recommended buy signal at the end of February.

    I have simply taken long positions at his forecasted major lows, and short positions at his forecasted major highs in the market.

    I am very pleased with my 300% gain over the past 6 months... all thanks to Larry Williams and his great forecasting ability, and his willingness to share it.

    I think Larry Williams' great results speak for themselves.

  330. A most excellent first post, Shack. How fortuitous that you should find this thread on this site and at this time. Remarkable.
  331. So where is the harm? Why does Larry not only refuse to offer such simple information, but he refuses to even acknowledge that I have asked this of him, by way of obfuscation and misdirection?

    (Of course, you will recall I wrote "full and proper real-time trade journal. This will require simple documentary evidence by way of attachment after the fact, although the actual calls themselves must be made in real time. Is this really so unreasonable to ask of the greatest trader in all the world who has already given so much of his time and is willing to give more? Why would you NOT want this evidentiary information?)
  332. Maybe what you need to do is to request the information that he offered via email, so we can dispense with your suspicions.

  333. What you have done is to attempt to thoroughly discredit Williams. And by the way, some of your attempts were through false allegations, one of which I caught you in. This attempt has gone on for years now. I think it's time that the accuser reveals some of his credentials, starting with his trading credentials. Why should you get a free pass to smear another individual? Please provide a "simple, unfettered, full and proper trade journal for even a short length of time".

  334. Thunderdog is a whiner and has poor trading skills.

  335. What are you, Larry's mouthpiece?

    The one error of assumption I made in the historical recounting of Larry's trading odyssey I owned up to and apologized for. End of story. I admitted an error. There have been no other errors in my reporting of facts. You conduct yourself as though I had not owned up to my error in assumption. I did. Get over it.

    I find it fascinating that you demand more proof of trading acumen from an anonymous Internet poster who has made no claims of trading prowess whatsoever than you do of the self-proclaimed greatest trader in all the world. Is he paying you to be so obtuse? Surely you are not that...blunt.
  336. Haha. Thanks for posting. Thunderdog exposed for the sniveling wimp he is.
  337. I showed real trades in HO and JY and entries here are targets and stops: JY Target-1.0890 stop 1,0778 HO Target=1,6670 stop1.8215.

    Sure, I had entered them a few days earlier--but what if they went against me? TdAwg does not trade or he would have realized the risk still in the trade..

    I showed all the details of a wheat trade in advance of taking the trade (0ther than my precise entry, but gave the general area and for obvious reasons). I thought thats what was meant by a trade journal---real time real trades with position size announced in advance.

    If that was not good enough what the heck would be?

    Meanwhile Tdawg refuses to prove he is not Dave Burden and or Mr. Pure and shows no trades...says thats not the issue that he can carp away hidden behind a bogus madeupname.

    Insults someone who post favorable to me and without even asking about the forecast that worked so well.....That forecast was made last December--set in stone--sent to a few hundred people.(8/28 was forecast as the high)

    But that's not good enough just as he did not ask the question a real trader would have asked about the wheat trade

    drum roll please--

    Why are you getting bullish on wheat??

    Think I got it figgered out Thuderdawg was once owned by Micheal Vick...explains the passion for bitteness.
  338. Larry, you really are wasting your time. Your starry-eyed devotees are just that and will so remain. They are yours for the taking. This thread has confirmed this fact if nothing else. Meanwhile, your repeated attempts at obfuscation and misdirection will find no purchase with me, either literally or figuratively. Although I do not believe in such things, I wish you full and proper karma.
  339. How ironic. TDog "has never insulted anyone except in self-defense...". LOL! Or "I have never criticized anyone for the simple rason of tearing him down."

    My how things change when the shoe is on the other foot eh?

  340. thunderdog needs an intervention. He is falling down the slippery slope.
  341. In view of your trading problems, maybe Larry could send you a free market letter, or something to get you off on the right foot.

  342. In fact, I continue, more than 6 years later, to only insult those who cast the first stone. As for Larry Williams, if you think he is defensible, then we are on opposite sides of a substantial divide, and I genuinely and sincerely believe that you are judgment impaired. I do not mean it as an insult. Rather, it is my expression of sympathy.

  343. So your attack years ago on my belief in a higher power was not casting the first stone ?

    Only after that fact, did I try to lead you in the right direction.
  344. Fortunately, I do not need a market letter, but your sentiment is appreciated.

    Is this really who and what you are? Targeting those who merely seek clarity from someone who charges thousands of dollars for his "knowledge?" What is it that you are afraid of? Why the need to come to the defense of the greatest trader in all the land? In the opaque world of market vendors, why do you find comfort in a cloak?

    Forgive me, Oldtrader, but you are not an independent thinking trader. You are an adherent, an apostle. A devotee.
  345. Thunderdog, why do you even care? Did you pay him money and were not satisfied with what he offered?

    I mean honestly, why do you care so much?
  346. No. We were having an exchange. A debate. You were for a belief and I was against it. If you do not wish for someone to disagree with you, then you should not engage in debates. Someone disagreeing with you is not an insult in and of itself. Your interpreting someone's doubt in the veracity of your own beliefs as an insult suggests a weak foundation, easily threatened.
  347. You're "merely seeking clarity"? C'mon. You are, and have been for years, on a mission to destroy. He offered you his trades for the last year I believe, that would have given you clarity. Evidently you turned that down.

    By the way, I don't know Williams, never subscribed, never been to a seminar, never read a book. What I'm doing here is trying to provide some balance to your one-sided diatribe.

  348. No, I never spent a dime on Larry. However, I received mailings years ago, probably because of the broker I had been using or maybe the mailing list of a few periodicals I had subscribed to at that time. I did, however, spend a lot of money on what must be about 130 books or so on the markets over the last dozen years. Most were worthless, some were not. (I looked carefully through a few of Larry's books in bookstores and deemed them to be in the former category, thereby saving myself some money.)

    Why do I do it? To be perfectly candid with you, I do it because I think it is the right thing to do. After reading Gallacher's book in the mid-90s and doing a bit of my own investigating some years later just for the heck of it, it just makes me feel good. As I mentioned earlier, I don't believe in karma. But I do believe in doing the right thing. Truth be told, I expected better from a few of Larry's apologists here, but look at the intellectual horsepower of the typical Larry enthusiast in this thread and others. And then judge for yourself.

    I'm fairly certain that I didn't change anyone's mind. But it was a cleansing exercise. :)
  349. If you know absolutely nothing about him, then maybe you should excuse yourself from this exchange and stop discussing what you admittedly know nothing about. I'm just saying.

  350. Hello First Time Post Wonder,

    So you traded the S&P and made money ?

    Let's see how well your "guru" did :


    DOWN 32.36 points


    OR IS IT YOU L.W ? Nah, you wouldn't be that stupid...LOL
  351. I didn't say I knew nothing about him. I said I didn't know him, hadn't read his books, subscribed, attended a seminar. I do know about some of his indicators. I've read articles about him. Looked at his website, read the detractors, etc etc. Williams has been around a long time...so have I.

    Next time try reading.

  352. Fair enough. I promise I will if you give thinking a try. :)

  353. His "most accomplished" results certainly do


    LW : 111 points

    I had a look at all the ES systems offered by the broker striker.com (specialist in automated systems) for the same period or less
    They post actual results, not hypothetical fluff for their systems, you only have to register to see those.

    clean record of broker Striker

    Brigade ES : june 2008 - aug 2009 : 391.53 points

    Archer ES : jan 2008 - aug 2009 : 159.66 points

    Battalion ES : jan 2008 - aug 2009 : 201.91 points

    Charge Indices ES :jan 2008 - aug 2009 : 390.91 points

    Compass ES : jan 2008 - aug 2009 : 196.49 points

    Countertrend ES : dec 2008 - aug 2009 : 189.32 points

    Earlybird ES : march 2008 - aug 2009 : 269.9 points

    GINA ES : may 2009 - aug 2009 : 178 points !!!!!

    Impetus ES : jan 2008 - aug 2009 : 226.24 points

    LAXMI ES : sept 2008 - aug 2009 : 169.25 points

    RAM ES : aug 2008 - aug 2009 : 168 points

    Saturn ES : sept 2008 - aug 2009 : 295 points

    12 out of the 28 ES systems or 42 % make more points than our most accomplished trader...

    P.S. And we are still waiting for his "most accomplished" 40 year long track record (Please, include the blow-up's)
  354. For someone too smart to 'argue' with rest of us on this post TDawg admits he's a losing trader, but does not need any help from a newsletter and found no value in my books ;-) could be that's why this guy is losing.

    Too smart to learn.

    Then he attacks me for the lack of an honest trading record--Then attacks becasue the snp DAY TRADING SYSTEM i have is down for the year. ---so far- (today it went long at 922.20 exited moc at 994.30)

    Let's see---if i was so dang dishonest would i not post a winning record?? BTW, all those trades and fills are from a real account i trade. Who else does that?

    Also forgets to post the 2008 track records for my newsletter. Attacks me for the claim I am widely known and respoected---we did that based on a Google count of all the commodity guys we could think of.

    Wheat trade still--- on same general area for entry.


    I am only posting this to clear the air of all these negative attacks from a non-entity afraid to even reveal his name to have me mail him account statment.

    Geez..i think he succeeded..i must be nuts to enter this dialogue.
  355. I would wager that your trading records are about as accurate and representative as your post. Did you manage to catch the "time stamp" of the post where I freely admitted to not being a profitable trader?


    The difference between you and me is that I am looking for accuracy and specificity, whereas, true to form, your principal objective and preoccupation is to obfuscate and mislead. This very post of yours is a case in point.
  356. that awhile back you said you were a loser and have seen nothing posted to dissuade us otherwise.

    also noted you said yu don't beleive in God them mention Karma most definetly a religous position.

    you are too much. My trades are real as is my name and such while you still hide behind your doghouse email.

  357. I mentioned not believing in karma but hoping that you get yours. How hard it must be for the greatest trader in all the land to follow a simple string.

    (So you've been following my posts over the years, have you? It is you, isn't it, marketsurfer? Few people in these forums spell as poorly as you do and have the cognitive capacity of a gnat.)

  358. my karma just ran over your dogma--- as it's the real LW, as far as i can tell..

    and no it isn't me, i have an editor.



    ps, you have dug yourself into a deep hole on this one, suggest cutting losses and staying away as you have stopped making sense.
  359. Do you think you could spare her a few afternoons a week so that she can clean up Laraby Willions's posts?
  360. Surf, whatever else you do, don't ever lose that sense of humor and irony.
  361. No offense, and forgive me for barging in on the drama; but I am starting to wonder if the defensive poster is truly LW.

    Considering he was competent enough to at least write and publish as much as he has, I cannot seem to reconcile the lack of critical thinking that this poster appears to display.

    First, equating tdog to a GANN proponent-- anyone who has read or researched even a minuscule sample of tdog's posts, would never make such an assertion.

    And then to make the assertion regarding his karma comment, shows that either:
    1) the post was not read in it's entirety.
    2) lw, or whoever, did not seem to pass a course in basic reading comprehension.

    Either way, whoever you are -- you are not helping the real LW at all.
    What is sayable at all, lets itself be said clearly; and what you cannot speak of, of that one should remain silent
    L. Wittgenstein
  362. I certainly wouldn't bet all of my lunch money that it's really LW. But did you notice how quickly the herd closes ranks at the first hint of doubt about LW? It only follows, since LW is their shepherd and they are his, well, you know...sheep.
  363. That is what I said a couple times before in this thread. I cannot imagine someone putting all that energy into building an image in the trading world, stooping to argue with a few anonymous posters on ET.

    If it is him, he is self-destructing his image here and now.
  364. How ironic if this turned out to be true, in light of the fact that the moderators have been coming down hard on individuals in his other self-named thread.
  365. Tdawg if you feel Larry is such a bad trader why not take him up on his contest? To me Larry has done nothing more than say, I trade, I make money, I also lose money. I can show you what I do which has worked for me in the past.

    Larry you have gone beyond what you should have done. Leave this idiot alone. I feel he is about 99k shy of having the funds for your contest. Continue to provide good service to new and existing clients with good information and your name will speak for itself.
  366. Two things.

    First, Larry claims to be "the most highly regarded and well known short term trader in the world. No other futures trader is as accomplished as Larry Williams." These are his words from his own web site. When I make such a claim, then you be sure to take me to task. However, I never made such a preposterous claim. Therefore, I have nothing to prove. Can you follow those bread crumbs?

    Second, judging by your name, you are in dire need of a vowel movement.
  367. Who CARES what he says. If you told me you are the smelliest trader in all the land, I wouldn't press you to prove that to me :D

    Seriously though, do you really care what a person says? I mean, if you aren't investing your own hard earned cash, there seems to be no reason to press the issue. And don't give me that garbage that "I'm watching out for noobs" or "it's the right thing to do". This isn't a business of morality, if you were looking for that, you surely looked in the wrong place.

  368. I tend to agree. I have been wondering what is this poster doing here? Doesn't a millionaire trader have better things to do than arguing with idiots on the internet? That doesn't help his reputation or his P/L, so why do it?

    This thread has jumped the shark a week ago. Larry, if it is you, please share some stories or market insight, hell even surfing tips are more welcomed from you than this crap....

  369. I'm not "watching out for noobs." As I had noted elsewhere in ET and not solely in connection with LW, I just have a hankering to call bullshit when I see it. I think it's the right thing to do, but I do it more for my own satisfaction than for any other reason. As it is, I hope that certain several of the respondents in this thread actually do take Larry's courses and seminars. Then maybe I'd be inclined to give this karma thing another look.
  370. Welcome. Make yourself at home. :D
  371. You are smart enough to know that, you'll never really prove anything one way or another. It's a futile effort. Maybe you enjoy the debate, I don't know. But really, nothing will really come of this so is essence, you are just prodding and poking someone who may NOT even be the person in question. Just seems rather silly for someone of your intellect?

  372. I fear you overestimate me. But, truth be told, it is getting somewhat tiring kicking this carcass around.
  373. I love ET... :p
  374. have buy orders working tonight for dollar index( 20 lot with 10 more on a pullback after entry) that is generally in the 79000 area.

  375. If Larrywms will take the time to answer these simple questions I'll confirm whether it's him or not:

    1) What is the simple formula for your system Trend Catcher?

    2) When you lived in coastal North San Diego County back in the 1980s what was the freeway off ramp you would use closest to your house?

    3) What high school did your daughter MW attend?

    4) There is a very well known bar in the town where you lived in North San Diego County that has been there for over 30 years. It's one block East of the railway tracks. It's especially known for it's live music. Name that landmark tavern.

    5) How would you describe Mike Chalek's speech pattern?

    All those questions should be slam dunks for the real LW.

  376. out of all the possible questions to ask a 40 year veteran trader, this is the best you can come up with?
  377. pcanyon will confirm!! The white knight assclown has arrived.

    Unbelivable!!!! Another anonymous poster pops up asking a list of questions to confirm a known entity who is already confirmed via a moderator and by anyone who will send an email to the address on his site!!! This is truly twisted. Truly retarded. Embarassing fool!!!!
  378. Truly vile and disgusting what this assclown demands Go back into your hole or simply send lw an email to confirm. At the same time post your personal details bozo
  379. Sorry you don't like them but they're questions that would not be possible to answer on Google.

    And if you have read my previous posts, you'll know that I support Larry's work and offered some pretty solid background as to why.

    In spite of the moderator standing up for Larry's documentation, there are still skeptics as to whether or not the poster is in fact Larry.

    I know with a pretty high degree of certainty that only Larry Williams will be able to answer my questions. And he will probably have fun doing so.
  380. How would he fake his email? Talk about making the simple complex. No wonder most fail at trading!!!
  381. Just send an email and ask him!!! To the address. On his site. He already gave you this hint Einstein!
  382. Others fail because they pull the trigger too quickly. Perhaps you may want to think before you post and in that way you can consolidate the rants of all those nervous, little, fingers into one message.
  383. lowering ho stop to 17836, bought 5 wheat at 4916 more orders above the market.

    Only the real LW would be dumb enough to do this or trype like i do
  384. Ok, I think its time to put this thread out of its misery. Mr. Williams has responded to his critics, some of whom will never be appeased and simply live to destroy threads. Most of the accusations now are just reposts of the same thing from earlier in the thread.