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israeli occupation

  1. Israel Currently occupies the west bank and well partially the gaza strip. There is much criticism of israeli actions in the gaza strip and west bank

    Now i have a question. Here is a hypothetical situation which will illustrate a good point as to why israel is actually dealing quite nicely with teh palestinians.

    You have a choice of 6 occupiers of your country (Palestine)

    1) Serbia
    2) Russia
    3) China
    4) Rwanda
    5) Columbia
    5) Israel

    Please vote as to which occupier you believe would deal with the palestinian state and cause least harshly
     
  2. excuse moi but why on earth u think any of those country would occupy palestine in the first place.
     
  3. Its an exercise designed to make you understand that there are much worse occupiers out there than israel.

    Palestinians have the unbelievable opportunity of actually having a rational occupier who will negotiate if given the invitation.

    DO you think russians, serbians ever gave chechans and kosovars a chance to negotiate? do chinese give tibetians a chance to negotiate. did Hutu's give Tutsi's a chance to negotiate?

    No they just went and did the simple thing and killed the opposition. The palestian cause would have been crushed a long time ago if any of the countries on the list were the occupiers instead of israel. I simply point out that palestinians with their current uprising are wasting an unbelievable chance to negotiate with a rational, sane occupier
     
  4. :p :p :p omg tell me thats just dave letterman taking the piss........ does harebrained come to mind?
     
  5. I think every country and the citizens have the right to try to make the occupiers' life hell and force them to leave.

    As for occupations, I believe imperial england was one of the best occupiers when compared to the dutch, portugese, spaniards and french. Maybe that is why the english were able to maintain their hold on power over the occupied lands much longer than the others. The commonwealth of nations is a good example of these occupied nations willingness to work with the occupiers.

    As for palestinians, I believe the Israelis are the best of the lot you described. However, again, an occupier is an occupier and you gotta do what you gotta do.
     
  6. Ultimately Isreal at some point will no longer be an occupier and the Palestinians will rule themselves which will prove to be much much worse, it always is.

    Nobody is responsible for more muslim death and oppression than other muslims.
     
  7. Yes, there probably are worse occupiers, but does that make their occupation right?

    No, of course not.

    Logical fallacy by Israeli supporters, of course.

    Here is an analogy that demonstrates the "logic" of the initial post.

    If a woman had to be the victim of a rape, who would a woman rather be raped by?

    1. An aids infested man.
    2. An escapee from prison who is in prison for rape.
    3. Her father.
    4. A gang from the inner city.
    5. George Clooney.

    See how stupid your comments really are?

    Rape is a crime, period. Occupation is an act of aggression. Period.

     
  8. a woman being raped by george clooney is rape?

    damn learn something new every day
     
  9. That is your "logical" retort to a woman who would be the victim of rape?



     
  10. I think teh women was very lucky to be raped by George as against the Aids guy or gang. If she were a raving leftist nutcase though she might not see that.
     
  11. Lucky to be raped?

    Oy vey...

    Lucky to be an occupied country?

    Oy vey...

     
  12. What has leftist to do with this? According to dictionary.com, rape is "any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person". So, anything forced upon or against will should be wrong.

    Or maybe I am misunderstanding you... conservative right wing women love to be raped by good looking men... is that what you meant? :D
     
  13. Exactly.

    He forgot the 'little green men from Mars' dont forget!
     
  14. Let's say hypothetically of course that Palestinians suddenly get a bright idea that one of those countries should not exist, then they act on that idea and invade that country doing their best to wipe it off the map. They lose but they keep trying, invading that country several more times, refusing to stop attacks and turning down reasonable peace proposals....

    Still wondering why one of those countries would occupy Palestine under the circumstances?
     
  15. the fact is palestine is already occupied, just like in ZZZzzz situation the woman is already being raped. the simple question is who would you rather negotiate with?

    id personally choose israel and i think the woman would most likely choose george clooney to negotiate with.

    personally i think the palestinians would be better off lying in front of the isreali tanks and daring them to run over them rather than throwing rocks at them. peaceful resistance speaks loads more than armed resistance.
     

  16. u shouldn't be there in the first place; if u come into my country and try to steal me land i make sure i kill as many of u as i can; and if u dont go away and i got the means i make sure i completely wipe u off the face of the earth. who invaded whom by the way? i see your blind fanatism keeps u on a permanent state of allucination.
     
  17. So u won't deny the same rights to the Israelis who have exactly the same views, concerns and emotions on this issue and who also feel that their neighbors are trying to steal their land. Is it fair enough? And next time if the Israelis kill as many arabs like u as they can (which is what u say u'd do to them) u and your camel fucking brothers won't run crying to Kofi Annan, the UN and Jaques Chirac like weak little pussies that they are, right?

    Can u promise that the next time Israel kicks your fanatical muslim ass once again you won't whine like a baby, just like you did after every previous well-deserved beating you got?
     
  18. Superior funding and superior weapons, and ever the victim...

     

  19. prob is that u are in utter denyal. extremists got those views not the majority of israelis. u know what's morality? it's a set of law on which the whole world agree upon. so far the world has spoken and said u are a crybabe playin' victim when infact u have been the aggressor from day 1 and the most dangerous entity in the area.
     
  20. LOL, your muslim brother bitstream one post earlier wanted to wipe Israel off the map, the sentiment clearly shared by 1.4 billion muslims worldwide, yet you're accusing the Israelis of feeling victimized/threatened. But in response to your claim - you're wrong, the Israelis are indeed well-funded and well-armed but they are no longer victims. Forget about it. I am sure you'll be disappointed but the victims now are those who attack them.
     
  21. Dude, that chip on your shoulder is the size of the mid Atlantic...

     
  22. You've got to be kidding me, ten minutes ago you wanted to wipe israel off the map and now you are lecturing me on extremism, in your previous post you de-facto denied Israel's right to exist and justified killing of as many Israelis as possible and now you are talking about morality and the world's opinion - the same world by the way that created Israel in 1948. And please read some history books if you are interested in this conflict, concentrate on years 1948, 1967, 1970, 1973 if you want to find out who was the aggressor from day one.
     

  23. what the fuck are u talkin' about...sheesh playin' victim has become a way of life for u innit. i said that if u invade MY country and try to occupy it, killin' my people, i do everythin' in my power to drive u out, let's say i wage all out war at u.
     
  24. Good, I agree, Israel has been attacked and invaded multiple times since it was created in 1948 so based on your own criteria it has every right to wage an all out-war against the invadors and if part of this war is the occupation of the agressor's land - so be it.
     

  25. whatever man, arguin' with u dont make sense. we are talkin' about palestinians here and u treated 'em like sub-humans, attackin' em and grabbin' land with no provocation. continue to justify your actions and rationalize every act of aggression u made, that's gonna alienate u even further. what's so tough about admittin' mistakes? un portray your country as perfect and incapable of wrong doin'. never in a mln yrs i would side with everythin' my country has done over the centuries and am shameful we joined hitler and were led by mussolini. u on the other hand are a fuckin' brain washed puppet. talkin' to u is the same as talkin' to a politician, same shit comes out of your mouth.
     
  26. read my posts carefully before postin' this humongous pile of rats droppings.
     
  27. LOL, the refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist, the wars of 1948, 1967, 1970, 1973, two intifadas, thousands of terror attacks, cross-border kidnappings, rocket attacks... No provocations my ass, you're insane... BTW did I mention the dancing on the streets on 9/11?
     
  28. ror, u refused the right of palestine to exist as well, 'till long ago u didnt even let 'em raise their flags, .the intefadas were born as a result of your aggressive occupation, same the attacks and the lot. u committed atrocities as well, and they all resulted in a disproportionate number of dead. u are both a pain in the ass, no question about it but u are grabbin' land in the first place, u cant expect your enemy to shut up and put up with it. would u?

    good nite.
     
  29. Bitstream its always been my opinion that muslim people in general should study more foreign history. The days of Saladin and Co are over for your people.

    If you have ever studied proper history ull see that the only resistance movements which were ultimately successful long term were peaceful. Martin Luther King, Ghandi, Mandela these people are all legends BECAUSE they lead peaceful revolutions. Precisely the reason why arafat will always be a footnote in history compared with these men.

    Palestinians will never get a state from israel as long as they continue to believe that violence will get them one. The palestinian cause is a noble one and one which i support deeply. I think that many people including israel would love to see an independant palestinian state. However it has been hijacked by short-sighted extremists who believe in instant revenge rather than constructive dialogue. Relatively you have one of teh nicest occupiers on this planet. make good use of it.
     
  30. Huh ? How about Vietnam, East Timor, Zimbabwe, China, Cuba, the American revolutionary war, Algeria and many more.
     
  31. Huh ? How about Vietnam, East Timor, Zimbabwe, China, Cuba, the American revolutionary war, Algeria and many more.

    Vietnam: Communist rule for the next decade

    Zimbabwe: total Economic Destruction, hyperinflation etc.

    China: Really a withdrawal by other countries. Civil War afterwards

    Cuba: In effect a withdrawal by the spanish, economically cuba was not worth the effort

    America: Too far back

    Algeria: Poverty and will continue to be in poverty because of incompetant leadership.

    My point is that as bad as it sounds u need administrators, beaureaucrats, politicians to run a country. Fighters dont run countries and will never be able to run countries effectively. Hamas would never be able to run an independent palestinian state.

    A peaceful revolution is run in effect by administrators, beareucrats, PR stuntsman and politicians. These are prerequisites for building a proper prosperous, well ruled society.

    Gandhi, Mandela, Luther King all had PR machines run by beaucrates and administrators backing their message. After the revolution was won it doesnt take much to convert these into people to run a country
     
  32. Of course competant administrators are needed in any nation. Just one of the issues faced by nations emerging from a victorious war of national liberation is that so many of their best and most commited people have been killed in the fight for independance and their societies distorted by war. I doubt that anybody would dispute that.

    Do you really think that European imperialism would have ended without armed struggle against it ?

    I would suggest that the fundamental reason the British got out of India relatively peacefully was not because they thought Ghandi was a nice guy, but because they assesed that if they didn't it would eventually lead to a war they couln't win. Britian, shattered by WWII basically had no other choice. Had there been no WWII, it may have been a very different proposition.

    Western imperialism spread across vast parts of the globe via military power. Ultimately much of it was thrown out by armed resistance or the possibility of armed resistance - in some cases the wars devestated the colonised nations. And utimately it is the colonisers not the colonised who bear the responibility.

    The French had to be militarily defeated before leaving Vietnam. The US then stepped in with their meddling and later military intervention. France and the United States bear the moral responsibility for the deaths of millions of Vietnamese - not the Vietnamese or even the Communist Party. All the Vietnamese ultimately wanted was their nation back. The war was forced upon them - by foreign intervention.

    To suggest that Western imperialism and the struggle against it which comprises so much of the history of the 19th and 20th centuries, would have packed it's bags and gone home if the national liberation movements had more and better PR people and better, more educated administrators is just silly.

    Sometimes I wonder about the moral contortions that some people must go through to so roundly condem the violence of resistance movements, who are mostly operating in their own countries and amongst their own people, but find it perfectly acceptable for foreigners flying F16s at safe altitude to drop bombs on them. What you ask for is those disposessed of their nations by foreign military force to resolve the situation by non-military means - a bit rich don't you think ? Perhaps more importantly just a bit unrealistic as well if one's objective is peace.
     
  33. no but in this day and age an economic or PR war is much much more effective than a military struggle. tell me which method is going to get palestinian independace faster:

    1) Suicide Bombings

    2) Peaceful civilian blockading of israeli tanks

    3) arab blockading of mid east oil to israel

    the third option methinks will bring about the instant withdrawal of the israeli army if only arabs had the balls to do it.
     
  34. your opinion is worth shit, since u know utter fuck, beginnin' with the fact am a white italian, not a muslim or a jew mofo. the palestinians problem is an injustice in the eye EVERYONE; only a jew himslef or a cukoo can defend israeli posture and actions. who u think u are kiddin', u are not after peace, u are belligerent to the max and dont blame arafat, u were dancin' in the streets when he refused to sign the peace deal.
     
  35. Here we see the sad result of the anti-Israel, biased 'reporting' of the European media (with a few scant exceptions, such as Sky News).

    Bitstream, you're a very bright guy with a pretty keen sense for truth. ... and still, they got you too. The average European, of average intelligence, never stood a chance at knowing what's actually going on in the Middle East.

    You know I grew up in the Middle East, right? You know by now that I know what I'm talking about, and I never bullshit... right? <b>There never was any such thing as a distinct Palestinian people!</b> That's all a 20th century invention. They are an occupied 'people without a homeland', just as much as the ethnic Mexicans living in California are an 'occupied people without a homeland'. I know your European media never tells you that, so you're probably hearing it for the first time.

    Who was the previous leader/king of the Palestinian people before Arafat? Having trouble coming up with his name, are you?
    What is the 'historical capital of Palestine'?
    Jerusalem is the wrong answer- it was NEVER the capital of any non-Jewish state, ever.

    The West Bank & Gaza strip were captured by Israel from Jordan & Egypt respectively, in the 1967 war. Those states, along with Syria provided ample Casus Belli to provoke said war. Do you claim that Jordan & Egypt were, until 1967, foreign occupiers of the Palestinian homeland? Well, that would be a first, because no one else ever claimed such nonsense. The Palestinian people, as a distinct entity & nationality <b>did not exist</B> until after 1967.

    You are fed a nonstop barrage of anti-Israel crap in Europe. Go on and believe whatever you want now, I just wanted to give you at least a fighting chance at absorbing the truth.
     
  36. Anyone familiar with these boards is fully aware that the resident troll (LoZZZer) is a genuine sadist, a loathsome excuse for a human being who stews in its own feces as it constantly seeks out decent people to piss off, and evil murderous causes to tacitly support.

    <b>Well, look which side the creature is backing in the Israel-Arab conflict!</B>

    That should tell you all you need to know.
     
  37. Simple solution for ever lasting peace on earth:

    Put all the Jews and Muslims in cattle trucks and ship them to the middle east. Then nuke the god damned place.

    Now the west has free oil and zero semitic inbreeds causing havoc.
     
  38. Since I have consistently said both sides are in the wrong, I am not taking a side backing either one.

    Doh!

    You really are not too bright, are you?

    All you got is ad hominem, just like the rest of your ilk...

     
  39. LoZZZer is the NFL referee who throws 100 penalty flags at Team A, while neglecting to throw a single penalty flag at Team B.
    ...and then he claims to be 'unbiased'.

    Have you ever considered a conversion to Islam?
    We both know it would suit you well. Modern Christianity is Neutral-Good, while Islam remains Lawful-Evil... just like you.
    You'd be able to surround yourself with people who truly understand and respect your sadistic tendencies. I know the churches can't give you what you really need, but with Islam you'd get the religious worship you <b>really</b> crave.
     
  40. LMAO. I don't know what is funnier, that I'm posting in Politics and Religion :eek: (yes, I'm that bored) or that you have just lost all credibility by making this ad hominem and hypocritically trolling post :D
     
  41. Fine, if you're that bored, why don't you check out this thread?

    Then you can come back and tell us all about how you've changed your mind. Deal?
     
  42. Hey dummy, didn't you know that some ref's job is to watch just certain parts of the action?

    Doh!

    Man, watching the neoconzionists try to defend themselves by attacking others, do nothing but come off as notshitstinkingneverdoanythingwrongaboveanycriticism is such a laugh...

    Dude, if you would pull that grandiose head out of your arse for just once, you might just have a chance of getting me out of your head...as it stands, I am permanently there hounding you, even when I do nothing.

    Seek out some psychological help....oh wait, you failed in that endeavor too...thinking you are too smart for shrinks, trusting no one but pharmaceutical companies...

    Man, you is lost...

     
  43. Another classic example of a person who says that others are wrong, then justifies exactly the same behavior in himself that he accuses others of....

    Once again, you is lost....

     
  44. What do you think I would do if you were truly 'permanently there hounding me', as you claim?

    Here's a few hints: You already know I have hoards of cash, more than I know what to with. You also know I have no respect for any of the laws our fine politicians have written for us.
    Hiring the services of a few professional 'revenge specialists' to find your sorry troll ass and serve up a nice heaping pile of <b>pain</b> would be a nice entertaining way to spend a few days, don't you think?

    Add it all up, and you have no idea how lucky you are that you're completely <b>wrong</b> about your supposed effect on me.
    See, you can't win. Even if you 'won', you'd <b>lose... big time.</b>
     
  45. Yes, we have a deal but...change my mind about what?

    That you have lost all credibility? No, that thread doesn't change my mind on that point at least as far as this topic is concerned.

    That your post was hypocritical and you are just as equal to the task of trolling as the one you accuse? LOL. No, the thread you directed me to reinforced that point quite nicely :D

    That you resorted to an ad hominen attack in lieu of a genuine argument? No, that thread was irrelevant to that point. It is in black and white on this thread. Your argument was that if ZZZzzz supports a point of view then that argument is invalid LMAO. It doesn't get more fallacious than that! :eek:

    *shrugs*
     
  46. Here's the scoop: our media would never be allowed to report this but here it is. The rasicm over there is pretty bad, combined with religious extremism

    'Gaza is a jail. Nobody is allowed to leave. We are all starving now'

    By Patrick Cockburn in Gaza

    09/08/06 "The Independent" -- -- Gaza is dying. The Israeli siege of the Palestinian enclave is so tight that its people are on the edge of starvation. Here on the shores of the Mediterranean a great tragedy is taking place that is being ignored because the world's attention has been diverted by wars in Lebanon and Iraq.

    A whole society is being destroyed. There are 1.5 million Palestinians imprisoned in the most heavily populated area in the world. Israel has stopped all trade. It has even forbidden fishermen to go far from the shore so they wade into the surf to try vainly to catch fish with hand-thrown nets.

    Many people are being killed by Israeli incursions that occur every day by land and air. A total of 262 people have been killed and 1,200 wounded, of whom 60 had arms or legs amputated, since 25 June, says Dr Juma al-Saqa, the director of the al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City which is fast running out of medicine. Of these, 64 were children and 26 women. This bloody conflict in Gaza has so far received only a fraction of the attention given by the international media to the war in Lebanon.

    It was on 25 June that the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit was taken captive and two other soldiers were killed by Palestinian militants who used a tunnel to get out of the Gaza Strip. In the aftermath of this, writes Gideon Levy in the daily Haaretz, the Israeli army "has been rampaging through Gaza - there's no other word to describe it - killing and demolishing, bombing and shelling, indiscriminately". Gaza has essentially been reoccupied since Israeli troops and tanks come and go at will. In the northern district of Shajhayeh they took over several houses last week and stayed five days. By the time they withdrew, 22 Palestinians had been killed, three houses were destroyed and groves of olive, citrus and almond trees had been bulldozed.

    Fuad al-Tuba, the 61-year-old farmer who owned a farm here, said: "They even destroyed 22 of my bee-hives and killed four sheep." He pointed sadly to a field, its brown sandy earth churned up by tracks of bulldozers, where the stumps of trees and broken branches with wilting leaves lay in heaps. Near by a yellow car was standing on its nose in the middle of a heap of concrete blocks that had once been a small house.

    His son Baher al-Tuba described how for five days Israeli soldiers confined him and his relatives to one room in his house where they survived by drinking water from a fish pond. "Snipers took up positions in the windows and shot at anybody who came near," he said. "They killed one of my neighbours called Fathi Abu Gumbuz who was 56 years old and just went out to get water."

    Sometimes the Israeli army gives a warning before a house is destroyed. The sound that Palestinians most dread is an unknown voice on their cell phone saying they have half an hour to leave their home before it is hit by bombs or missiles. There is no appeal.

    But it is not the Israeli incursions alone that are destroying Gaza and its people. In the understated prose of a World Bank report published last month, the West Bank and Gaza face "a year of unprecedented economic recession. Real incomes may contract by at least a third in 2006 and poverty to affect close to two thirds of the population." Poverty in this case means a per capita income of under $2 (£1.06) a day.

    There are signs of desperation everywhere. Crime is increasing. People do anything to feed their families. Israeli troops entered the Gaza industrial zone to search for tunnels and kicked out the Palestinian police. When the Israelis withdrew they were replaced not by the police but by looters. On one day this week there were three donkey carts removing twisted scrap metal from the remains of factories that once employed thousands.

    "It is the worst year for us since 1948 [when Palestinian refugees first poured into Gaza]," says Dr Maged Abu-Ramadan, a former ophthalmologist who is mayor of Gaza City. "Gaza is a jail. Neither people nor goods are allowed to leave it. People are already starving. They try to live on bread and falafel and a few tomatoes and cucumbers they grow themselves."

    The few ways that Gazans had of making money have disappeared. Dr Abu-Ramadan says the Israelis "have destroyed 70 per cent of our orange groves in order to create security zones." Carnations and strawberries, two of Gaza's main exports, were thrown away or left to rot. An Israeli air strike destroyed the electric power station so 55 per cent of power was lost. Electricity supply is now becoming almost as intermittent as in Baghdad.

    The Israeli assault over the past two months struck a society already hit by the withdrawal of EU subsidies after the election of Hamas as the Palestinian government in March. Israel is withholding taxes owed on goods entering Gaza. Under US pressure, Arab banks abroad will not transfer funds to the government.

    Two thirds of people are unemployed and the remaining third who mostly work for the state are not being paid. Gaza is now by far the poorest region on the Mediterranean. Per capita annual income is $700, compared with $20,000 in Israel. Conditions are much worse than in Lebanon where Hizbollah liberally compensates war victims for loss of their houses. If Gaza did not have enough troubles this week there were protest strikes and marches by unpaid soldiers, police and security men. These were organised by Fatah, the movement of the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, also known as Abu Mazen, which lost the election to Hamas in January. His supporters marched through the streets waving their Kalashnikovs in the air. "Abu Mazen you are brave," they shouted. "Save us from this disaster." Sour-looking Hamas gunmen kept a low profile during the demonstration but the two sides are not far from fighting it out in the streets.

    The Israeli siege and the European boycott are a collective punishment of everybody in Gaza. The gunmen are unlikely to be deterred. In a bed in Shifa Hospital was a sturdy young man called Ala Hejairi with wounds to his neck, legs, chest and stomach. "I was laying an anti-tank mine last week in Shajhayeh when I was hit by fire from an Israeli drone," he said. "I will return to the resistance when I am better. Why should I worry? If I die I will die a martyr and go to paradise."

    His father, Adel, said he was proud of what his son had done adding that three of his nephews were already martyrs. He supported the Hamas government: "Arab and Western countries want to destroy this government because it is the government of the resistance."

    As the economy collapses there will be many more young men in Gaza willing to take Ala Hejairi's place. Untrained and ill-armed most will be killed. But the destruction of Gaza, now under way, will ensure that no peace is possible in the Middle East for generations to come.

    The deadly toll

    * After the kidnap of Cpl Gilad Shalit by Palestinians on 25 June, Israel launched a massive offensive and blockade of Gaza under the operation name Summer Rains.

    * The Gaza Strip's 1.3 million inhabitants, 33 per cent of whom live in refugee camps, have been under attack for 74 days.

    * More than 260 Palestinians, including 64 children and 26 women, have been killed since 25 June. One in five is a child. One Israeli soldier has been killed and 26 have been wounded.

    * 1,200 Palestinians have been injured, including up to 60 amputations. A third of victims brought to hospital are children.

    * Israeli warplanes have launched more than 250 raids on Gaza, hitting the two power stations and the foreign and Information ministries.

    * At least 120 Palestinian structures including houses, workshops and greenhouses have been destroyed and 160 damaged by the Israelis.

    * The UN has criticised Israel's bombing, which has caused an estimated $1.8bn in damage to the electricity grid and leaving more than a million people without regular access to drinking water.

    * The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem says 76 Palestinians, including 19 children, were killed by Israeli forces in August alone. Evidence shows at least 53 per cent were not participating in hostilities.

    * In the latest outbreak of violence, three Palestinians were killed yesterday when Israeli troops raided a West Bank town in search of a wanted militant. Two of those killed were unarmed, according to witnesses.

    © 2006 Independent News and Media Limited
     
  47. Why didnt the thread starter include the possibility of a Canadian invasion/occupation. Excellent thread, this guy could take over for Ted Koppel.

    Rennick Cronkite out

    ps. BABABOOOEEEE:D
     
  48. are u sayin' that also the italian media is biased against israel? we are your main allay after usa, we have a huge numbers of jews livin' in italy, our country always supported yours but unfortunately never liked the way you act. man, it's not the european media, it's the whole world besides your oversea ally usa; u sayin' that u and america are right and the whole world is wrong? u may never bullshit but u are way too biased to express a detached and fair opinion in the matter.
    of course there was never a palestinian nation per-se but let's go really back in time shall we? after u were driven out u came back as settlers travellin' back and forth into the land for its significance to your faith. arabs owned since the 600ad century and the population was muslim. if there was a king at the time he might have been olmar. and yes, he conquered jerusalem and i can safely state that it was the capital of palestine at the time. after 400yrs a series of wars were fought mainly with crusaders, so it wes a back and forth struggle for centuries but palestine, before was conquered by the turks, was under the ottoman empire. by then the whole of palestine was mainly inhabited by muslims-arabs. the few jews remainin' fled the territory after the inquisition begun and if am not mistaken ended up in turkey. it took more than a millenium for u to come back and once again begin to build settlements; but still in the 19th century u still couldn't make up for more than a 10th of the whole population, the remain' were all arabs. and here is when your major extremist movements was born, infact, it's at this time that u begin to emigrate to palestine and be bent on colonizin' the whole region and beyond. it's after the ottoman empire lost the war against the allies and namely britain that u had the chance to create an identity in palestine, before then u were no other than settlers and passers by. infact the british mandate and the whole balfour affair played beautifully into your hands even tho it was aggressively fought by the arabs, that infact thot they were gonna be harassed and eventually dispossessed by the jews [boy if they saw it comin']. to make a long story short the arabs owned the land and u were a near guest there. i dont really care if u were provoked by egypt and syria, that has got nothin' to do with u harassin' the palestinians non stop; u just want 'em extinct. what i find it funny is that u get all wet when some1 says israel should be wiped off the map and yet that's exactly what u aspire to do with palestine and it has been stated by many of your politicians over the years. most disgraceful is the atrocities u keep committin' against the palestinians, lettin' women give birth at checkpoints, that's like treatin' em as sub-humans dont ya think? u target civilians for no reason and the blame them if they do the same. u just adopt double standards where u can act as u wish and that's perfectly fine but if your enemy does it it's morally unacceptable. sorry i dont buy into your 'play the victim game'. just look at what u did in lebanon man, how do u justify shit like that.
     
  49. What do you think I would do if you were truly 'permanently there hounding me', as you claim?

    Maybe kill yourself, if you couldn't score the right drugs to mask the pain.

    Here's a few hints: You already know I have hoards of cash, more than I know what to with. You also know I have no respect for any of the laws our fine politicians have written for us.
    Hiring the services of a few professional 'revenge specialists' to find your sorry troll ass and serve up a nice heaping pile of <b>pain</b> would be a nice entertaining way to spend a few days, don't you think?


    For the record, are you threatening to hire someone to cause harm to my person?

    You do know, that these days law enforcement takes these threats seriously.

    Add it all up, and you have no idea how lucky you are that you're completely <b>wrong</b> about your supposed effect on me.
    See, you can't win. Even if you 'won', you'd <b>lose... big time.</b>


    Unable to just ignore, you continually have to tell me, and everyone else how unaffected you are.

    Sure you are....
     
  50. You crack me up, LoZZZer, you really do. :D
    Tell me, how exactly are YOU going to motivate your local law enforcement/pig street gang/prohibition enforcement thugs/legalized extortion racket to help or protect YOUR sorry ass? LMAO! :D :p

    Assuming none of them enjoy sexual favors from crusty old trolls, how the fuck could you EVER hope to motivate some lazy thug in a uniform to lift a finger on your behalf? That's just great comedy.

    Tell you what: Just to make the situation even funnier by possibly provoking you to <i>actually</i> file a complaint and take the inevitable barrage of condescending abuse from your presumed 'protectors'...

    Yes, as a matter of fact I AM threatening to do horrible illegal things to you. I'm threatening to <b>illegally</b> enter your musty 400 sq. foot SoCal basement apartment and rip all the Hezbollah banners and Che Guevara posters off your wall. Then I'll tie you up with your own Depends™ undergarments and make you watch as I erase all the bestiality videos and Islamic snuff films from your hard drive. Then, as you lie there shitting yourself; bound, gagged and helpless, I'll have someone read you the entire text of Atlas Shrugged- twice. Every time you start crying or pleading for mercy, we will have to start the entire text over from the very beginning- all 1168 sweet didactic pages of it.

    However, I am NOT offering to sell you ANY illegal narcotic substances or enable you to violate prohibition in any way.
    Neither I nor my assistants would have any prohibited narcotics whatsoever in our possession. Not a single drug prohibition law would be infringed upon.

    Now, go take THAT to your esteemed local law enforcement agents, and find out if they give a shit.

    :p :p :p
     
  51. Bitstream your blind support of palestinans neglects the role that palestinians themselves played in their suffering. palestinians only have themselves to blame for their present suffering. i supported the palestinian cause vehemently a few yrs back before arafat spurned the most generous deal ever given by an occupier to an occupied territory.

    A little history

    After oslo accord where signed and negotiations continued there was relative peace in between israeli and palestinians. palestinians prospered as trade links beetween the two countries grew.

    Fast forward to camp david in the year 2000. Barak made what i believe will probably be the most generous peace offer ive ever seen made by any occupier to an occupied territory anytime in the history of the middle east. 90% of the west bank, 100% of gaza, joint custodianship over jerusalem. and a limited right of return for palestinian refugees. probably 70-80% of the palestinain demands were met under that offer and constituted a huge sacrifice for the israeli people for peace. Had that offer been accepted i believe that barak like rabin would most likely assasinated by an extremist israeli.

    barak offered joint custodianship over some parts of jerusalem and soverign palestinian rule over the majority of jerusalem, palestinians wanted COMPLETE soveringty completely disregarding the fact that in order to make a peace offer palatable to the israelis they had to at least have some form of control over jerusalem even if it was joint. Israelis compromised, palestinians didnt even budge. knowing that both sides could not return without control over jerusalem barak offered the best thing he could, joint control over the most sensitive areas to israel and the concession of the rest.

    Barak offered palestinians a viable, complete palestian state with control or joint control over practically 90% of the land demanded. With strong economic links already forged by trading buisnesses in the years after oslo, palestinians could take their mind off war and onto economic prosperity. Arafat didnt even make a counter offer.

    Palestinians spurned the offer and decided on the path of war knowing full well that israelis would respond in kind and crush their people.
     
  52. aus_SPIder I must take this point up with you: are you saying that whenever persons are the target of indiscriminate, ongoing, violence that they bring it on themselves? Does that make the offender immune from any judgement?

    Do you have any opinion of Israel's ongoing violence against civillans or do we not have the freedom to ask that question (or we will be branded anti-semites). If you asked the average citizen there what they thought, how many are brainwashed racists?

    Oh well, enjojy beating your wife - she brings that kind of thing on by herself. How dare anyone say that you don't have the right to control your own home.
     
  53. I like money/biz/commerce because it does not discriminate.

    If the price is right, anyone can sit down at a table and break bread.

    If the price (quality of education) is right, anyone can send their kids to school with others' kids, even if it wouldn't have been thought possible in another context.

    If the price is right, people can at least pretend to treat each other with respect, handle any differences logically, and maybe even develop true friendships and rock solid relationships born out of loyalty.

    The business world leads the way in resolving conflict.

    It always has, and always will.

    I'll have anyone from any race, any ethnicity, any religion, ANYONE, over to my house for dinner, so long as the price is right.

    I may make serious money, and gain allies.

    Why would anyone want to foreclose those kind of opportunities?

    THE KEY TO RESOLVING WORLD STRIFE ISN'T WELFARE, OR FOREIGN AID, BUT PROVIDING TRUE ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY FOR ALL.
     
  54. aus_SPIder I must take this point up with you: are you saying that whenever persons are the target of indiscriminate, ongoing, violence that they bring it on themselves?
    I don't think that's what he said. He said "palestinians only have themselves to blame for their present suffering". That does not mean that everyone has only oneself to blame but palestinians do. Don't they teach you to read in Toronto anymore?

    Do you have any opinion of Israel's ongoing violence against civillans or do we not have the freedom to ask that question (or we will be branded anti-semites).
    Israel does not attack civilians, Israel drops warning leaflets before entering civilian territory. Israel's enemies do deliberately, indiscriminately and savagely attack Israeli civilians though. Civilians suffer during wars, Israel does not start wars, arabs and palestinians start wars against Israel. Palestinians, not Israel want to drive a neighboring nation into the sea and wipe it off the map.
     
  55. Give me one example of what the Palestinians have done to offer a peaceful solution to the problem?

    Isreal withdraws, the violence increases and not only that, the Palestinians themselves start killing their own civilians.

    They caren't capable as a society of living on a peaceful world. THey need babysitters.


     



  56. You sound like Hitler.

    Let me guess, you're another ashke-NAZI non-JEW.
     



  57. first of all u take me out of context. Second of all palestinians are just as responsible as israelis for the violence and slaughter in the mid-east. to suggest that any one party is somehow more "right" in their violence than another brings about dangerous consequences. Its the same ideas which extremists use to brainwash their own people. Somehow their brand of violence is inherently "right". Palestinians are as much the recipents of "indiscriminate, ongoing, violence" as they are perpetrators. There brand of violence is no better than that of the israelis.

    The reason why i said palestinians are to blame for their present suffering is that they spurned a peace offer in 2000 which basically met all their demands at the expense of the israeli side. Dont forget that in all those negotiations israel could have turned around and just re-occupied the west bank. Instead barak was willing to negotiate over jerusalem and practically the entire west bank and had already offered Gaza. America and Israel were willing to provide aide and political support for a new palestinian state with arafat as the leader. The stage was set in 2000 for a new palestinian state free of violence with a land area approximately 95-96% of the west bank, 100% of gaza and a capital in jerusalem on the temple mount.

    Arafat walked away without a single counter offer. u cant blame them afterwards for thinking that palestinians were not serious about peace.

    What you need to understand is that there is a PR war being conducted by both sides to win support. You cannot completely blame isreal for all of palestine's problems, alot of it is the result of internal corruption, weakness and not taking the right chances when they arose such as in camp david 2000 and taba.

    Everyone somehow expects israel to turn the other cheek from attacks and give land back to the palestinians, give them finanical support and aide and somehow still maintain civil order in their own country. Israel is not a saint. It cant happen, u need to understand that if israel suddenly did that theyd probably find themselves in the middle of a civil war, getting settlers out of gaza was tough, imagine getting settlers out of most of the west bank. Thered be an internal uprising.

    IF you want to make analogys regarding marriages its like your spouse and yourself yelling at each other. Youve already agreed that there must be a divorce. You have offered her the kids (jerusalem), the parts of the house that are hers (West bank, gaza), and financial support so that she can get back on her feet again (aide). You know full well that you are the much stronger party and can kick her out of the house at will, yet you offer these things for peace. She spurns you offer saying that your entire house is hers, the kids are hers and your entire income stream is hers.