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How much to pay for a mentor?

  1. Hi
    I have always seen newbies or even experienced (but losing) traders have no sense about how much to pay for a mentor.

    As a mentor, each time, It lasts a couple of hours for me to explain that forex is an expensive job and if you don't pay now you will pay much more to the market.

    I started this thread to talk in this about and finalize an affordable price.
     
  2. Probably around 30k/year at least when you think about how much the tuition at private institutions costs. Someone who is employed would basically have to fork up everything but what they need to live on. Steep price but mentoring is not cheap. At the mentor though you probably want to not completely gouge a student of his entire capital, so give him a small practice trading account and save a bit of the total money he gave you to give back to him when he becomes consistently profitable? Sort of like a little head start. Heh.
     
  3. Profit sharing, it's worked for me on the rare occasion I've taught someone to trade.

    There are several benefits:
    Trading with the student in a live market instead of just theory or paper trading.
    Proof that the mentor actually knows what he's doing and really can make money.
    No risk of the student being scammed, if the mentor turns out to know nothing then it costs him nothing.
    The student pays and earns as he learns, he doesn't have to pay in advance.

    The downside is he has to have enough equity to make it worthwhile, sharing the trading profits from a 5k account obviously wouldn't be worth it. Another downside is finding students who have the potential to learn the business, I've come across more than my fair share of total morons!
     
  4. For a long while I have been selling naked puts and things went well. However I feel like I am just stealing candies from kids. I want to be where the big money is...futures !

    I pay 25 k a year for my mentor because :


    1) He is a trader and a hedge fund manager first THEN a mentor and I am the only one he is mentoring. He doesn't want to mentor. Mentoring is not his job, he made an exception in my case.


    2) His performance is non directional and it is rock solid. I saw it.


    3) I go to see him in his office at times even during market hours, he does his things first then explains to me how to look at the market and what exactly he does day in and day out.


    4) In his office there is a blackboard and for me there is no internet webex phone call conversation that is as effective as having the person who is teaching you something right in front of you.

    5) My starting point will be pretty good, meaning I won't lose money. My learning curve is becoming super fast, I consider myself lucky and I am very grateful to him and I will do my best to be the best student I can be. I do not want to disappoint him in any way.

    6) He is going to have me sign a non disclosure agreement which I will be happy to sign. I have absolutely no desire in talking about the things he is sharing with me. I can already tell that is powerful crazy shit.

    Is he worth the 25 k ? I think he is although it is for me very expensive. Will I make the money back ? That I don't know yet, but I think I will.

    In conclusion I think that one pays for education once or twice, but for ingnorance, especially in the market, one will pay forever.
     
  5. what are the reasons somebody becomes a mentor?
     
  6. I have mentored and the deal was a 50/50 split of net profits until the trader had made his first $100k (50 for each), then he is on his own. There's got to be enough starting capital that the potential gains are worth my time. If the trader is smart and dedicated, I would expect him to be able to make that in about a year to a year and a half.
     
  7. That actually sounds pretty fair, all up.
     
  8. Boredom probably :p

    No, actually it's very rewarding to teach someone to do something as difficult as trading and to watch them develop into profitable traders, especially if they have already lost money in the market.

    There are an awful lot of scams out there, obviously they're only looking for a financial reward, but for genuine mentors I think it can be a lot of fun.
     
  9. Cabletrader,

    I think that is a good idea..............
     
  10. i know one thing stay away from trade the markets and john carter... total scam :D
     
  11. Online trading academy will do it for around 6 grand for life! They offer a great mentor program where you trade together everyday for three months, then you can watch him trade everyday after that if you choose.

    http://www.tradingacademy.com/xlt.htm
     
  12. Trading mentors are much like Trading Systems. The only ones for sale aren't worth buying.
     
  13. <i>"Trading mentors are much like Trading Systems. The only ones for sale aren't worth buying."</i>

    Does that blanket statement include everyone, even lescor per this thread? If I were a fledgling stock trader, he'd be welcome to my money in exchange for education.
     
  14. Agree! Why does a real succesful trader need 30K? I can understand maybe a great trader wants to teach someone in a special situation, but in that case he probably wouldn't want or need the money.
     
  15. What are your goals? Are you doing it only for the money? If so, how much do you think you're worth? If you were them, how much would you pay for the knowledge? Are you teaching someone an edge or are you teaching them generic information? The questions require self-honesty in order to be helpful.

    I hope to learn enough so that one day I can hook someone up the same way I've been hooked up. Just the honor associated with paying kindness forward is what would do it for me. I know that sounds pretty geigh, but it's true. I won't charge anything when that day comes, but that's just me. You may have different reasons and goals than me. Real knowledge (not BS vendor crap) is certainly worth paying dearly for, but it wouldn't be right for me to charge having been helped out the way I have been. I'm just not the type to charge anyways I guess. I get a lot out of helping someone who is willing to help themselves.

    I guess it just depends really.
     
  16. <i>"Why does a real succesful trader need 30K? I can understand maybe a great trader wants to teach someone in a special situation, but in that case he probably wouldn't want or need the money."</i>

    As usual in ET, the same old question being asked from the wrong direction. The real question is, why would any experienced trader want to work with everyone for free? I can understand maybe a great trader wants to teach someone in a special situation, but in that case he probably wouldn't devote as much time, effort or energy.

    If a trader in question made $1mil trading stocks in 2007 and decided to mentor someone(s) in 2008, it takes x-amount of time, effort and energy to do so. What successful trader wants to expend those limited, precious resources (time is much more valuable than money) for nothing in return? The "feel-good" aspect will be there either way, money or free.

    Show me someone who made $1mil doing anything last year that would dismiss $50k out of hand. If that seems an insignificant sum, just gather up five hundred $100 bills of your own, push them into a pile on your front lawn and light the whole thing on fire.

    What the heck... it's insignificant, right? Why not burn it up and have some fun in the process. Make it rain c-note ashes.

    *

    "Mentoring" is one word for a pretty broad-based spectrum. A student who doesn't know the first thing about trading demands a lot more resources than a trader who has crippled their way to consistently break-even or sporadically profitable. That trader may require less nuts & bolts but more mental = emotional aspect support.

    **

    I saw a disturbing thing on television today. There was Tiger Woods, flogging Buicks in a commercial. Can you imagine? I highly doubt he actually drives a buick... how hypocritical is that?

    But, I could be wrong. Maybe he blew up on the golf circuit and needs the money. After all, why else would he stoop to vending for Buick? Real shame, the kid seemed like a good golfer once upon a time. If he were still a great golfer, we can be sure he wouldn't want or need that extra piddling amount of money for hawking your father's automobile.

    Damn shame, the way his career has seemingly ended.
     
  17. giving 50% of your profit does not sound like a good deal to me...
     
  18. so you'd give him 50% of what you make; and what happens when you lose the money even though he mentored you??? 50% is absurd..mentoring doesnt gaurantee shit....if someone could gaurantee me that I would make money, hell they could have 100% of it all for the first year...peace
     


  19. Very colorful but idiotic comparison to Tiger Woods. He makes more money annualy from endoresements then from golf. If you are a trader who is worth somone paying you 30K to teach them, you should be making that in a week. If you're not, you're not worth more then a couple of $40 books. Its very simple, for 30K you better have some secret edge that will guarantee the student immediate profits, and if you have that edge, you would be a fool to give it away for 30K. Its a two edge sword. Once again like the other person said, if you're for sale, you're not worth buying.
     
  20. <i>"so you'd give him 50% of what you make; and what happens when you lose the money even though he mentored you??? 50% is absurd..mentoring doesnt gaurantee shit....if someone could gaurantee me that I would make money, hell they could have 100% of it all for the first year...peace"</i>

    My thoughts exactly. Here in this thread you have a trader who is proven to earn six and seven figures annual in the past. He mentioned having mentored before, and what those terms were. Knowing back then what I do now at this stage of my career, if that offer were extended to me in the early days I'd have moved the +/- 2,500 miles and next country over to reserved my spot in a chair next to his for however long it took me to learn those ropes.

    Seriously, does everyone realize how much broken glass it takes to crawl across before reaching that type of finish line? I'd happily have paid the whole $100,000 <b>I was shown how to make in the first place</b> (aka free money) playing the odds I could repeat the process again myself.

    After all, what is the cost = price of education to reach success? I value the time spent reaching that point (opportunity cost) and money lost in exchange for lessons learned a higher price than 50% or even 100% of profits from an abbreviated learning curve.

    In my beginning, I'd have been stone stupid to pass up an offer like that. Can't speak for everyone else, but that's what I know at this stage of the game today.

    *

    I have an aged relative who is easily net-worth more than 98% of the 100,000 aliases who ever passed thru this place. Last year he needed a utility vehicle to get around his property with. So he went down to the local John Deere dealership and bought what he needed.

    Highest end model? Best one they offer? Nope. He bought the prior year's leftover which was a demo model to begin with. Negotiated lifetime service (at his age) and talked the salesman into splitting the sales tax on his invoice.

    Total savings? Maybe $2,500 for haggling. He has antique toothpick holders worth several times' that sum, each one.

    Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned in there somewhere :)
     
  21. <i>"He makes more money annualy from endoresements then from golf"</i>

    I didn't say Nike. Look up approx how much he makes from Buick alone. Why would he even bother?

    It's the exact-same scale percentage of his net-worth versus payment as $1mil versus $50k
     
  22. <i>"Once again like the other person said, if you're for sale, you're not worth buying."</i>

    If the other person spent more time exploring this site for knowledge than lamenting the same old drivel, he'd already have seen what lescor has done in historical P&L threads.

    If not, I strongly suggest both of you spend some time back in history there. You'll recant that prior statement afterwards.
     
  23. I have been presented with opportunities in the past to teach someone one of the methods I use. It still isn't perfect but it produces DAMN good returns. I don't think I could put a dollar amount to it. All the hours, blood, sweat and tears (Lets not forget money, LOL); I have too much pride to give it up for money.

    However if someone wanted to pay me to teach them the basics of trading, I would probably do it. At the end, I don't know if i would even take money for it.

    Here is my thought. Teaching others is how a good thing gets ruined.
     
  24. I've heard a lot of people say that and never understood why, isn't the opposite true, ie the more people who trade at certain levels in the same direction, the better?
     
  25. I first learned a bunch of nuggets of wisdom starting as a runner. Later on, I learned how to trade from old guys who had been around since the 1930's. Although the grain business is pretty tough, the older grain crowd is usually willing to teach worthy young guys how to trade. I've passed along a bit of knowledge to younger guys over the years myself, charging nothing. Someday, I hope they'll pass it along, as it was passed to me.
     
  26. In this situation, I am specifically talking about my earnings method. The more people that would know, I believe it would actually dilute the returns. There are a few key factors I use when determining my decision, if everyone knew it may change the outcome of the play.

    I do understand what you are saying.
     
  27. Right thanks, that makes more sense, I just assumed you were talking strategy basics, my bad.
     
  28. <i>"I have been presented with opportunities in the past to teach someone one of the methods I use. It still isn't perfect but it produces DAMN good returns. I don't think I could put a dollar amount to it. All the hours, blood, sweat and tears (Lets not forget money, LOL); I have too much pride to give it up for money.

    However if someone wanted to pay me to teach them the basics of trading, I would probably do it. At the end, I don't know if i would even take money for it.

    Here is my thought. Teaching others is how a good thing gets ruined."</i>

    I'm on record in here from year's backward saying that true trading systems, i.e. verbatim entry - management - exit parameters can be overwhelmed and ruined. Absolutely true, and there is no price that can value such a black & white product.

    Teaching others how to read tapes, identify direction correctly, where to enter and generally how to manage trades is a different shade of gray. There are 1,000s of stocks to target, and ES / NQ emini futures offer more size in each trade entry zone (it's never a precise spot to the tick) than any group of retail traders can overwhelm.

    There is also an old adage that states, "when one teaches, two learn" The time and effort involved teaching anyone anything requires in-depth study and research on the teacher's part. Aside from trading, I learned much more about honeybees than a person ever needs to know. All from mentoring others on the art of lifting heavy boxes while dodging most (not all) annoying stings in the process and calling the endeavor fun, relaxing and stress relieving.

    Go figure
     
  29. I would not mentor anyone for less then 25k and I only after market hours.

    I would also screen that person for IQ level because working with a fool is not worth any amount of money.

    I taught my ex to trade a few years back and it was a nightmare not to mention she makes great money now and I haven't seen a dime of it in gratitude.
     
  30. Finding the guiding Light of trading is priceless.
     
  31. 1. Find out how much money the mentor makes using only the strategies and systems they are willing to teach you.

    2. Find out if the mentor thinks you, personally, can net (after taxes and fees) that kind of money after perfecting your execution of that same set of S&S, <i>in the first year</i>.

    3. If the mentor wants more money to train you than he expects you to net in your first year out of his training, he's not worth it.
     
  32. Did you take their course?
     
  33. $9.95 ($12 value!)
     
  34. Maybe he gets a hard on :confused:
     
  35. Still, nothing beats real experience. Someone who wants to learn should find an old guy who has 30 years experience on the floor and beg them to teach some little tricks. Some of these online guys, I take with a grain of salt. That's what I first did 28 years ago when I showed up totally green in the wheat pit.

    I know a kid who has a real interest in markets, has a healthy respect for risk, and wants to learn how to trade. After bugging me for a year and a half, I finally relented, and showed him some tricks of the trade. He was at first bored by the grain spreads I trade, but after hanging around for awhile, he learned some valuable market lessons.

    My kid at college wants to trade because all his friends are paper trading and posting on boards like this. There is no way I'd ever teach my kid to trade, as he would be a loser. He just doesn't have the gamesmanship. One of my tools has always been to find a loser (a separate skill in itself) and fade his trades. This little skill added 20% to my bottom line in the pit.

    One little predictor of success at trading is finding out how many games such as chess, checkers, poker, and other things the newbie played as a kid. If he made a good, honest living at 16 playing poker, or was a good chess player, there's a good chance he will find an edge in the market and become a net profitable trader. When you get to the nut, trading is just a game.

    http://masteroftheuniverse.wordpress.com/about-me/
     
  36. I'd say that's a pretty good indicator as well.
     
  37. Poker, yes, a good indicator.
    Chess, no, absolutely not.
    These are two different games, very different.
     
  38. Hello,
    I'd ask you an additional questions:
    - why successful traders spend their time to partisipate in this forum???
    - why some people give people for cherity???

    Obviously therer are more than a dozen of reasons for that.
    In any case the personal motivation is a very complex thing and for everione is diffrent. For example why the turtle traders were thouth how to trade? For money? Not at all. The reason was diffrent this time too.

    There are benefits for the mentor, too.
    Cheers.
     
  39. but you can get jack hershey or stock_trad3r much cheaper. They are broke, and will work for food...
     
  40. Hi Joab,
    what kind of dime of it in gratitude do you expect???
    Ha ha ha
    :D :cool: :) :p
     
  41. How are they so different?

    One game develops your probability, psychological and bet sizing skills, the other is great for pattern recognition, strategic thinking and being able to project potential moves into the future.
     

  42. I respectfully disagree with your assessment.
    Chess and checkers are absolutely great indicators. Mastery of chess and checkers are indicators of a logical mind, capable of deception, and thinking 9 moves in the future...all essential components for trading. Although this is anecdotal, of the eight people I've mentored over the past 30 years, the one that didn't make it couldn't play chess. I would rank a good chess game higher than than a good poker game for an indicator in every occasion.

    Many of the greatest traders play an excellent game of chess, just ask the Palindrome, Soros.
     
  43. >>Poker, yes, a good indicator.
    Chess, no, absolutely not.
    These are two different games, very different. >>

    Tetris. Taught me about charts. Invaluable.
     
  44. Goinglite

    ace indicator trader

    and chess grandsmaster
     
  45. LOL :) No more teaching for me :) Just trading :)