Home > Brokerage Firms > Prop Firms > Don and Mav, Part Deux! (Live Chat)

Don and Mav, Part Deux! (Live Chat)

  1. Don and I will be doing another live chat on Paltalk Thursday, January 25th after the close. You will have another opportunity to learn everything you wanted to know about prop firms and prop trading but were afraid to ask. We had over 200 people on the last call which I think was capacity. I'm looking forward to another good chat. Feel free to post questions here or PM Don or myself.
  2. Can we have details on how and where to partcipate
  3. I will open a room in Paltalk, under business and finance, under "daytrading" - then look for "Proprietary Trading Forum" - and we'll be there.

    www.paltalk.com it's all free. You "may" want to pay for the Xtreme service, better video and sound - plus no popups. Cheap, like $5.00 per month or something.

  4. Signing up for paltalk for the last chat was a nightmare. popups, spam email and their crap software hiding on my system and running in the background and I couldnt turn it off. Hotcomm is a lot better imo.
  5. I think Don has a marketing deal with Paltalk. Just kidding Don. :D
  6. Is there a text transcript of the first chat posted anywhere?
  7. I don't think there is but the audio is posted a few different places. Someone put it up on their blog.
  8. We have used paltalk for years to communicate every morning with all our traders. I think you can block the popups and add video for something like $50 bucks or so per year. I can easily act as administrator on paltalk, just makes it easier.

    Since most of the discussion is audio, you can simply ingnore popups if you're getting them.

    See you all next week!

  9. OK guys, we are moving the chat to Wednesday after the close. Sorry for the inconvenience.

    Also, if you guys want to suggest topics to be discussed, please feel free to post them here.
  10. I think you should discuss new techniques
    for nyse hybrid issues whats working and whats not.
    Maybe touch on platforms, frontend/blackbox basic software needs for prop traders.
    Also mayb touch on the differences between basic equity and futures trading

    mayb make it longer then the last chat session.
  11. Longer then the last one? The last one was two hours. LOL. At least for me. I stuck around for an extra hour to answer questions.
  12. Really. the file another user posted was only 45 min long guess will have to listen live next time.
  13. Guys, I just discovered something after listening closely to the mp3 of the previous chat. Don and Maverick74 are the <i>same person</i>. Maverick74 is just Don talking with a slightly higher voice. I know other people had that suspicion in the past, but only now has it been confirmed.

    Listen closely this time around and you will hear it also.
  14. Nawwh. it's whut mav had been smokin that chnged his voice.
  15. Having talked with both of them, I can assure you they are two different people. If you are still unsure, then take a few moments and read through their posts and you will find two drastically different personalities and writing styles.
  16. Heh. I wasn't <i>serious
  17. here is how you kill the popup
  18. R u ret4767ED i get the impression reading this of a painting I have I call it a retarded picasso.
    Less then 3 days away they need serious questions.
  19. ( I assume you're making a joke, but I'll respond anyway, LOL).

    Yeah, you can listen closely and then call me in Las Vegas and Mav in Chicago - geez, I know there are a lot of "crazies" here on ET, but I assure you that as crazy as Mav and I may be, we are two different people. In my case, for whatever reason, I'm pretty well known to the public and to the regulators - trying to pull of some media nonsense wouldn't make any sense.

    Mav and I just agree on a lot, but disagree on some aspects of trading. He works with Vtrader, who is run by an old acquaintance from the PSE, and, well, I guess you know where I work.

    The idea for the mutual chat came about primarily because we each focus on "overall profits" (of course), but derive profits from different approaches in some cases. In addition to that, all the "nonsense" about prop firms, regulations and all that was taking a lot of our time to explain, so we figured we'd just have a chat.

    I was close to not doing another one of these, but quite a few of you seemed to really appreciate our time, so what the heck...we'll see you again on Wednesday.

    Bye Don (Bye Maverick) LOL.

    Don :cool:
  20. Does anyone have a preference what we talk about?



  21. 1. Trading Pair Baskets not just simple 1 to 1 pair trades...

    2. Trading Inter Option Spreads
    IE. SPX vs OEX or OEX vs DJX etc...

    3. Sniffing Program Trades & Algo Trading patterns for trading futures... and front running them..

    just the simple stuff Mav...




    HAVE STOP <img src="http://www.enflow.com/p.gif"> WILL TRADE
  22. I'll see if I can bring PairCo President, Rob Friesen into the chat to go into more depth on number 1.

    Mav or I could do number 2, I'll suggest Mav take that to begin with.

    And, as far as number 3 goes....front running the primary leading indicator is something that I would love to listen to. Other than basic programs (Hank Camp explains pretty well, and guys like him)....I wouldn't be able to "front run" Spoos.

    Back to Mav...

  23. You can get cross margin relief for trading inter-option spreads. Go to the OCC web site for a list of all the cross margin pairs and relief you get.
  24. OK, I should have set up a poll when I started the thread. But how many guys are planning on listening in on Wednesday? Don is concerned if we have enough people. He mentioned perhaps postponing it a week. What do you guys think?
  25. In.
  26. Hi fellas,

    Where can I get the audio for the last chat? A link please?

    Count me in on the next one. But make up your minds about the date please...

  27. pm your email address i can send you the the file. its only 45 min
  28. Is there any way to ask questions while the chat is going on?
  29. Yes, you can type them in or raise your hand and ask through your mic.
  30. Wed what time?
  31. After the close.
    I won't miss it :)
  32. OK, we're on for tomorrow after the close.

    "Proprietary Tradin Room" in the Bus/Finance Section - Daytraders.

    Use today to send questions on PM or email (donbright@brighttrading.net) .....

    And, yes, you can type in questions during the chat.

    See you there...

  33. I cannot attend but would love to have a recording if anyone would be so kind to do so.

    i have to leave the office in the afternoon for a few appointments.

  34. Don, or anyone with Camtasia, would it be possible and could you please post a small video of your Redi platform when an LRP is hit? I would love to see what happens there in your platform. You've described what happens, but as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words!!

    I trade with Genesis Laser platform, and nothing happens for us there. I have no idea when an LRP is hit. I would simply love to see a small video posted here of your Redi platform going through its phases as an LRP is hit, goes into slow mode, and the specialist turns the algorithm back on again. What does that look like? Show me with a video please!

    Thanks alot to anyone who could possibly do this for me,
    +-*/ Math_Wiz
  35. Live chat today with don and mav two trading gurus at the close.
  36. I've been trying for over an hour, but this is such a slooooow day that I haven't seen any sweeps on my group of stocks. I do have the LRP point showing in a montage however.

    I keep trying...

  37. Room is open. Come in, have a drink, relax. :)
  38. Well thanks for trying Don.

    Would a Redi-screenshot be anything to look at while you are trying to get that video?

    Thanks again,
    +-*/ Math_Wiz
  39. To listen in/view today's Don Bright & Maverick + Rob Friesen live chat:

    Paltalk Messenger >> Browse Video Chat Rooms >> Business and Finance >> Day Traders / Stocks & Bonds >> Proprietary Trading Forum (about the 22nd line down from top)
  40. thnx for login info
  41. Thanks again for the time guys.
    I have an mp3 of the chat. Le me know where I have to put it. It's pretty big: 84 megabytes.
  42. After listening to the audio and parsing the pauses in between speakers, we now have incontrovertible proof that Maverick74 <i>is</i> Don Bright speaking with a higher voice.
  43. done:


    it's a zip file. With the mp3 I also put a text file with the messages people sent during the chat. It's not really important, but there a couple of questions Don answered, without talking. And it cost nothing.

    You are welcome :)
    But first check that I did it right :D
  44. andread-

    Worked like a charm. Thanks a million.
  45. I get an error everytime I try to download it. Am the only one this is happening to?
  46. Works for me. Just tried.
  47. OK, I just used a different browser and it's working now. Thanks.
  48. The last Paltalk they had was so riveting that I fell asleep at my computer. When I woke up my fly was open, boxer shorts were on backwards and there was 20 bucks missing out of my wallet. Sorry guys, too much weird crap happened for me to listen to the next mav/bright fat chewing.

    Rennick out:mad:

  49. There is an old saying, "people hear what they want to hear".
  50. is this a video conference?

    how else can we see if mav is don wearing a fake beard--

  51. Mav, regarding what you said in the chat about shorting now.
    Considering the latest earnings reports, would you consider a long position?
  52. I was half joking. But as far as trading goes, I don't look at market fundamentals or earnings reports. When I traded equities, I watched earnings and earnings revisions.
  53. Yes, I remember you saying that.
    But is you spreadsheet absolutely static? Don't you have a way to configure its logic, based on the current situation?
  54. <i>"The last Paltalk they had was so riveting that I fell asleep at my computer. When I woke up my fly was open, boxer shorts were on backwards and there was 20 bucks missing out of my wallet. Sorry guys, too much weird crap happened for me to listen to the next mav/bright fat chewing. Rennick out"</i>

    Bill, you've gotta stop drinking in bars named "Pink Flamingo". They'll slip stuff in your beer... or worse when you're not looking.
  55. Our system is volatility based so there is no need to change the data after the opening ranges are established. It would be very clear to you if you could see it.
  56. You sounded pretty serious to me.

    Hey Mav, you should start a journal so we can start fading your trades:D
  57. I'm not sure that would be healthy for your account. Trust me.
  58. sorry if this has already been asked but is there a transcript somewhere?
  59. Definitely. If I were ever stupid enough to follow anyone blindly, it would probably be Mav's journal. :D :D :D

  60. It's been recorded. Look a few posts above.
  61. I am big on fundamentals. I look for real news...preferably negative news. I then ask myself if this is something management can fix quickly. If the answer is no, I do a negative directional long term play.

    When a company's stock is doing poorly, I look at the Balance Sheet, particularly the cash position and short term debt. If the stock is down, they are sitting on a pile of cash, and short term debt does not exist, I'm long term bullish.

    Favorite L/T ( 6-12 months) strategies that don't require constant maintenance: OTM Butterflies.

  62. Bob, I don't believe there is an edge trading off of publicly available information. Most hedge funds that are successful doing that trade off information that is not public. If everyone has it, it's not an edge.
  63. OK, and now for a different perspective from the "Bright side" - (although I do agree about the news comment...there is nothing that we're going to learn that someone else doesn't already know).

    Where my differing opinion may come into play is in regards to fundamentals and balance sheets (no Mav, not "my balance sheets" LOL).

    My brother, who I respect greatly (how can you not respect someone who has made over $100 million with his own trading, never using OPM?)...is a strong supporter of fundamentals in all his trading, both short term and long term portfolio management. We spend a zillion hours really going through the details of every stock we trade, every pair relationship (fundamentally), and every sector strength (for relative strength via fundamentals).

    Bob (brother Bob, of course) says that if you're going to buy a stock for a week, you shouldn't mind holding it for a year or a decade.....especially as it relates to a "peer" or a "pair". This thinking has made millions (and, yes, I thank Bob for being the one in charge of our Family LLC, where most of my money is kept, LOL...if it was up to me, most of my money might belong so someone else by now..again, LOL). When we got extremely long PVN a couple of years back, the fundamentals were great...the stock went down from around $8.00 to around $2.00 and we were "loaded up" - (not in percentage of net worth, but in number of shares ...millions of shares)...and that company turned it around and we sold out in the mid to high teens, making some good money.

    Same thing with GM...we took some flack for taking a mark to market hit with GM ...only to have the money come back many times over..again, based on fundamentals.

    Fundamentals are not simply a snapshot of the current financial position, but must take into account many variables..P/E et al, but also things like number of employees, the company's own business plan...their foresight (or lack thereof)...did Blockbuster get into the online video business soon enough?? That kind of thing.

    Anyway, Mav and agree about the current news, but we may disagree a bit about fundamentals...probably because he trades more in the index arena (futures, etc.), and we focus a lot on individual stocks and pairs.

    Note to everyone....I sincerely like to have discussions like this, with mutual respect for other ideas...as opposed to the "we're right and they're wrong" ..crap, yes, crap that we sometimes see here on ET - let's keep this tone, and maybe we can all learn something, I know I sure can.

    Oh, yeah...I'm going to ask for some help on a couple of threads. I want to chat with anyone who is good at digital video editing.. a really good amateur or a professional...I need some help with a project...

    all the best,

  64. Ah, semi strong efficiency :)
    But wait, you said you used to look at fundamentals. What made you change your mind? Or you were having non public information?
  65. Don, what's your brother trading, besides stocks?
  66. Don.....I have given you a hard time over the past few years but what you posted here is the best thing that I have heard from you.

    Here is the problem: 80% of most traders are traders for this reason: To make their money work for them 100% to 1000% over the next year. Now this is not scalable on 500 Million but on 100K to 500K it can work.

    When you have wealth and can buy stocks and hold them for years and still have capital left over to trade and make some trading income to cover the Monthly Nut than you have best of both worlds.

    You and your family are in the 99% percentile. They rest of us and most of your traders and in the bottom 50% and lack the deep pockets to take a bad TRADE and make it an INVESTMENT.

    Maybe I have some envy, but you are a minority when it comes to $$$$$$ in your account.

    Bob and Bright Trading has done a good job in your visionary approach.

  67. Mav, I've been a big fan of yours ever since I read that you said that among the mos successful traders you know were the directional traders. (Not your exact words, but close). Therefore, in looking at your answer to my last posting, I wonder why if fundamentals help me with he direction more than they do not, why is it imperative that I look for an "edge".

    Thank you and Don for your comments.

  68. Don,

    I'm glad you brought this up. So now people can see you and I are not in bed together doing these live chats. (Yes, some people probably thought I sold out by moving over to the darkside with you.) LOL.

    I took extreme issue with your brother's trade that was featured in Trader Monthly. In my honest opinion Don, that was a horrible trade. Yes, your brother got lucky. Does that mean he was right? I don't think so. I know a lot of guys that get lucky at the casino, it's not because they are right. Sooner or later, that "buy on every dip" mentality will lead you to the poor house. No matter how much money you have behind you. Brian Hunter anyone? Nick Leeson? LTCM? No, I'm not implying he was overleveraged like those mentioned, but it's a symptom of the same disease regardless. That is, refusing to admit you are wrong when the market repeatedly says you are. Yes, your brother was able to withstand a stock that went against him by 75%!!!!!!!!!

    I would argue, If Bob was a good trader, he would not have had to endure that much pain, fundamentals or not. No trader in their right mind should ever take that kind of heat. Yes, it came back. But shit man, with that reasoning every trader on ET is a genius. I mean, look at everyone trying to short this rally. Eventually they will be right. But for God's sake, when you are wrong, you are wrong. The fact that we might get a selloff in March will not vindicate those who started selling this market in October.

    The idea behind trading is to make the kinds of gains your brother made WITHOUT taking that kind of risk. Shit anyone can dollar cost average a stock or a commodity until it moves there way. Many did that in the late 90's with tech stocks until they blew out in 2000. How many blew out recently buying Crude oil futures all the way down citing strong underlying fundamentals that it should go higher. How many have been shorting our index markets citing a very weak economy, war, interest rates, blah, blah, blah. Where has that gotten them?

    My biggest beef Don with your brother and that Trader Monthly article is it re-enforced every bad habit a trader has. Refusing to admit you are wrong and just doubling up every tick against you until you are proven right. This is why guys blow out.

    Now, I will give Bob credit for one thing. He at least is doing this with his own money and not running OPM and behaving that irresponsibly. He can do what he wants with his money, and I guess your money too. But I would not call that a good trade. Fundamentals are great when the trades work out for you. But they are tragic when they don't. Think of all the bears shorting tech stocks too early in 1998 and 1999. In the end you may be proven right, but over the short term, you could lose everything. Hence John Maynard Keynes's famous quote, "the market can remain irrational longer then you can remain solvent."

    Anyway, we can agree to disagree here. This post was not meant as an attack on Bob or what you guys do there. It just goes against every principle I stand for and was therefore compelled to respond to it. Anyway, all is well.
  69. I never ever traded on fundamentals. What I use to back in my daytrading days in NY was go through all the news items in the morning before the market opened and looked for all the companies that reported earnings or had earnings revisions. I picked the ones I liked and added them to my quoteboard. Those were the stocks I traded that day.

    I had no opinion on the direction of the stock, we just traded anything that moved. Being tapereaders, we were interested in those stocks because we knew they would have institutional involvement which made reading the tape much easier.

    If BBY announced blowout earnings and revised their earnings higher for the next 2 quarters and the stock opened on a minus tick, I would short the shit out of that thing off the opening print. I was not an analyst. I was just looking for volatility.
  70. Bob, I was not implying that what you do is not profitable. I was simply saying there is no edge in doing that. Many traders make a great living trading with no edge. And just because you have an edge does not mean you will ever make a dime. If it's working, keep doing it. I was just saying there is no edge in trading off of something that everyone has access unless there is a lot of ambiguity involved, which usually there isn't with stock fundamentals. Pretty straightforward.
  71. Mav, thank you. Sorry if I misinterpreted your use of the word "edge". Somehow I came away with the impression that you were using this word in a competitive sense. No doubt that you and I both learned a long time ago that whether or not someone else is making or loosing money is totally irrelevant in terms of our own success or failure.

    If I may, I would like to share one additional thing regarding public information. That is, although so much is available, not many people avail themselves of the financial information put out by the various corporations. Think back a few years to the AOL/TWX merger. In the months and years since, most people think that the failure of that merger lies with AOL. Without getting off on a tangent as to which of the two was the bigger drag, I remember looking at both companies and discovering that TWX was bringing to the table a mound of debt and very little cash. On the other hand, AOL had a nice pile of the green stuff and no long term debt.

    For whatever reason, that one was an easy call.

    Hope you are enjoying your weekend. I live in Miami. I know you live in Chicago and are no doubt a Bears fan. This place is really buzzing (and horn honking with the traffic) with Super Bowl anticipation.

  72. You have got to be kidding me, you take "extreme issue" with someone else's homerun? Who are you to take issue with any one elses trading, especially a successful trader? That was and still remains a great trade, one that only Bob and the Specialist got right! Just because it doesn't fit into "your" little model of what good trading is, doesn't mean it wasn't good trading.

    Bob planned, traded, and executed his strategy perfectly on that play. He was never leveraged on that trade. He constantly traded in and out of that stock as it was continuing to drop. He had conviction and the ability to stick with it, and he was only risking a portion of his assets. The fact that the stock dropped 75% is irrelevant, the only thing that matters is that even if the stock did go bankrupt, he would only lose a reasonable amount of his capital. That trade will not work well for most traders, it did, and still does, work perfectly for Bob. And that's what we are talking about here, what is a good strategy for Bob, not anyone else.

    There in lies the key to successful trading, finding the strategy that is perfect for your account size, mindset, and present circumstances. What works or is right for you, is not necessarily right for anyone else.
  73. I was going to respond in a similar way as Mr. Schey did, but he did a good job IMO. Bob and I make thousands of trades every year, and yes, some may be interpreted as "deep pocket gambles" - and yes, we may have gotten "lucky" on a few...but think about the adage that says "those who work harder seem to get luckier" - my brother has, and does, work very hard ...not only in his own trading, but with his various groups (from our newbie students, to some of our "grizzled veterans")...

    Bob will be the first to tell you about his "trades gone bad" - the hundreds of trades that you have to know "when to say when" and bail out (he hates to, but does, LOL).

    This is not a game of "right or wrong" (as you, Mav, have said many times)...this is a game of being "right" more often than being "wrong" - simple percentages...not mutually exclusive by any means.

    Mr. Mav, you are more similar to us than you might like to admit. You make money trading, you help others in their trading, you make some $$ from your Vtrader business as well...and I have enjoyed cultivating our relationship, and thank you for your participation.

    And here I am, wide awake at 4:30 in the morning on Sunday...stupid biological clock...I've been waking up a this gawdawful hour for 30 years now, LOL.

    All the best to Mav and Mike!!

    (edit) - and who the Hell was stupid enough to short all the tech stocks in 1999?? Certainly not us...we had our traders get permission to trade internet stocks back in those days...and they're still thanking us, LOL.

    Recognizing trends, etc., is another thing that has to be dealt with. Fundamentals are "part" of a much bigger picture. Currently, fundamentals are vital to our success, and when that changes, so will we.

    Now it's time to go walk the dogs..back at ya later.

  74. Why can't the Bickersons at least take the weekend off?
  75. No, I don't think you are understanding me. My issue here is not with Bob, but with the trade. Look, Trader Monthly does an expose on this guy and what a great trader he is. Bob has been trading for 30 years. In all those 30 years of successful trading, are you telling me bob couldn't have picked a better trade to showcase his talents then one where it went against him 75%??????

    Come on, that is ridiculous. I'm sure Bob has made many great trades in his life. I would argue 95% of the trading community that reads that article will think Bob is nothing but a gambler, which I'm sure is not true. However, that is the impression everyone had that I showed the article to. That is not the kind of publicity Bright Trading wants or needs. All I'm saying is that trade is not how people should be trading and it sure should not be used as a proxy for how a successful trader trades.

    And btw, mschey, I can take extreme issue with anyone I want per my first amendment rights. This is a message board last time I checked. That's what people do, they respond. So cool it a little bit on the rhetoric. Thanks.
  76. Don,

    I know you know my post was not an attack on the way Bob trades but just that particular trade. And Don, I'm not letting you off the hook that easy. I stand by my post. That was not a good trade. I don't care if he put 100,000 hours of research into it, there is no way around it.

    Let me ask you this Don and honesty is always appreciated. Let's say he bought that stock from $8 all the way down to $2. And on the way down, the fundamentals were all in tac. Everything looked great. No reason not to buy right. But let's say by the time it got down to $2, suddenly some information was revealed that showed that this thing was a dog and the fundamentals have drastically changed and there was no reason to hold it. Are you telling me Bob would sold the stock down there at 2.00?

    I don't believe he would have. And even if he would, that is the risk of trading that way. See, you can buy a stock with faith in the good fundamentals, but you are making the assumption that the fundamentals are going to stay strong in the future. Now, that is normally not a big deal as most people would bail on a stock after a 5% or 10% loss and maybe re-enter the stock later. But if you are going to take 50% to 75% hits on a stock, this is definitely a concern.

    See I would argue that a good trader could have looked at that stock and the fundamentals and said, OK, fundamentals look great, technicals look awful. Stock is making lower lows every day. I'm going to wait for this stock to bottom and show some signs of strength, then I'll start buying it if the fundamentals are still good. They would not just jump in and try to catch a falling knife. There is never a good reason Don to let a position go that much against you, no matter how much money you have.

    Anyway, like I stated above, I don't think that article did any good for Bob as it probably portrays him as being the type of trader that he is not.
  77. Just traders talking shop/debating trading issues in a venue open to other like-minded traders to learn and constructively, even instructively join in - Baron's very reason for establishing EliteTrader some eight years ago (already).
  78. We have ridden stocks down to zero, heck at some point you may as well... why sell at a lousy $2bucks...ask me some time about our Stratosphere shares....LOL. My point is simply that if you buy something based on good fundamentals (vs. virtually any other reason) that most of the time you made a good buy...maybe not that month or year, but more often than not. Some won't work because fundamentals change of course -so maybe, in certain cases you start replacing that stock with another.

    Back on the floor, when we would get super short one option class, we wouldnt' buy those options back at overly high (theoretically) prices, we would hedge by buying the best (or at least better) priced options...thus basic hedging, spreading, etc.

    That's another reason that our pairs work so incredibly well. Since we have a choice of which stock is "better" - we are generally long that stock based on fundamentals...and short the less strong stock...trading in and out, but all the time feeling good that we have the "correct" stock. Does this always work, of course not...(let me know when you find that strategy, LOL)...but it works way more often than not.

    Would you rather pay $10,000 for a car with a $20,000 blue book value or a $2,000 book value (Price/book of one half or 5:1)...no need to answer, just pointing out how we view these things. Stocks are real companies, not just candles on a chart, and we still believe value is important.

    I will send you a book that you may really enjoy...PM me your best mailing address.

    And, the "trade" (good or bad) made for some fun reading, and caused a lot of interest...sort of like we did on our radio show for 7 years, try to bring up some controversy....same ol', same ol' makes a boring subject even more boring. If I recall I think this "trade" was in the "best trade, worst trade" section...and we copped to bad trades as well.

    Again, all the best...good discussion...we'll have to do a "Point-Counter Point" when you and I broadcast again - maybe that will keep Bill Rennick awake, ROFL.

    Don (AKA - Mr. Bickerson - working on the weekend)

  79. The trade in question is a paired trade right? COF short with a PVN long...I was in that trade as well when earnings for PVN came out(it was oct of 2001 I believe). They took PVN out back and shot it after earnings and the conference call. I listened to the the whole CC. Management was nervous and couldn't answer questions with confidence. All earnings estimates were in doubt as well as managements ability to run a company. I had to get out as it sounded like outright fraud and mismanagement. There were shareholder lawsuits (I actually got a check a couple of months ago from the shareholder lawsuits).

    I also followed PVN after the blow up...they lost money in some of the following years. had a negative P/e and cash flow....Fundamentals did change.

    Did anyone "pair" up enron with anything and ride it down....how about UAL? Or any of the other 1000s of companies that went bankrupt.

    Anyone in this "trade" went from trader to gambler/investor. Is this considered trading?
  80. You know, I suspected this was the case. I use to trade PVN and COF back in 2000 to 2002. A lot of guys had that pair on. I think this was also the case with Don's GM/F trade. You can correct me on that Don. Where they were short GM and long F and GM was getting bid up for months after their debt was downgraded. I believe a lot of guys at Bright got hurt on that and Bob took that trade over and held GM stock short outright. Same thing. That trade ended up coming back in and all was well.

    But again, my beef is the same. The market is telling you you're wrong and the trader refuses to give in. I just don't understand how these stories have a happy ending over the long run.
  81. Here's a guy taking "extreme issue" with someone else's trade telling me to "cool it on the rhetoric!" Last I checked....my first amendment rights were still intact, too.

    As I said, the trade fits him perfectly. Doesn't mean it's right for you, me, or anyone else. Whether you like it or not, it was a great trade, and an example of great trading.

    Honestly though, I don't think this is really about Bob, or bad trading, or even a discussion of good trading. I think that this is just a stunt on your part for a little PR. I think you're just looking to raise your profile a bit, and looking to ultimately promote your firm and "your" style of good trading.

    But, What do I know? I'm just an automated equities trader. :confused:

  82. Your facts are wrong....Bob was long GM.....long GM from 38 or so.
  83. Ok, whatever Mike. You have spoken to me on the phone. If you really think that, nothing I can do about it. And btw Mike, I have met Don in person. In fact, we had dinner together. Imagine that huh? And I told Don in person over dinner everything I told him now. Don can verify that if he wants. See, thats the difference between you and Me I guess. I actually speak my mind to people both on here and in person, or phone, whatever it may be.

    Don and I have a mutual respect for each other in that I don't think he is a bad guy, nor is his brother. However we see the business very differently. I have exchanged barbs with Don for years now. It has nothing to do with promotion or me. It is nothing but healthy debate. I have had these exchanges with a lot of people on ET. You see, thats what these boards are for. Hmm, go figure. Anyway Mike, I can lead a horse to the creek but I can't make him drink the water. You can think what you want. My integrity has never been in question on here or in person.
  84. Same difference. Long GM while it tanked, short F. Don told me the story over dinner. And even he admitted that trade was a disaster. Now go run along now Mike. Don can defend himself quite well. He doesn't need a lap dog.
  85. Seems to me, you might be the critic who can't handle the criticism back.

    Between my conversations with you and reading your posts, it seems that anyone else who makes money in any other way then you see as a "viable" way to make money, is wrong, and won't be able to sustain it going forward. Bob makes 30 mm, on a stock that recovers, and It is an example of poor trading, I trade automated systems on equities and you tell me equities trading is dead. Another guys sells options spreads, and "it works until it puts you out of business!"

    You're entitled to your opinion, that's fine...just please don't act like your way is the only way to succeed in the market. The fact is, as long as you are making money, and structure your risk so that no single trade can put you out of business, you are trading well, and have a viable trading strategy. But again, that's just my opinion!
  86. Your post said he was short GM, there is a big difference between being long and short, wouldn't you agree?

    Lose the attitude, please, don't talk down to me....I won't take your shit.

    BTW...I know you have short term memory problems...so I'll remind you, our initial conversation was about PVN....not GM. I was defending the trade that Bob made, and you were telling me why it was such a bad trade...does that ring any bells?

    Well, it's been fun, but I've got other things to do today. As is often the case, you may have the final word.
  87. question for the Brites...is it ok for students to trade that way?

    Also is it a matter of course for others in your firm to keep adding?
  88. Mike, you are so full of it. If you listened to both those live audio chats, I said in both of them that there is no such thing as a good or bad strategy. There are only good and bad traders. I would put Bob in the category of good traders. But that trade he made was bad. There is no other way to argue that.

    Please reference somewhere on those audio chats were I'm telling people how or how not to trade. And Mike, if what you say is true, and I'm pushing people over to how I trade, then surely you should be able to tell everyone here how it is I trade. I'm betting a dime to the dollar you can't do that because I don't discuss how I trade on this forum. So how can I be pushing people over to how I trade? You know, don't answer that.

    And btw Mike, at my firm, we have people that trade everything under the sun. We actually have guys that trade pairs!!!! Holy shit, can you believe that Mike? We also have guys that scalp, trade stock, trade futures, trade options. There is no one strategy. So yeah, good job on being wrong yet again.

    Seriously man, what is your deal today. Don and I have been having these debates for years. That is what these boards are for. You jump in here out of no where and start attacking me making accusations that clearly are not true. Do you not have an ounce of integrity? You know, don't answer that either Mike. LOL. I'm trying to help you out here.

    Anyway, to sum up, I have never told anyone they are wrong on how they trade. I've never promoted my style of trading on these boards. And when I told you equity trading was dead, it is dead!!!! We use to have 50 prop firms trading equities, now we have maybe 3. The vix was at 20 to 30 when I daytraded them, now it's at 10. I never said you can't make money trading dead markets, I just said they were DEAD!!!!!! As long as you keep missing these elementary points, you leave me no choice but to talk down to you. If the shoe fits as they say. LOL.
  89. Actually it started off as long PVN, short COF..ended up pretty much straight long PVN...simply moving a "trading pair" into a longer term investment (for the fundamental reasons mentioned before)....

    Geez, I never thought a few trades (of millions) and a stupid magazine article would bring about so much debate...but (once again) good stuff or my magazine articles...

  90. Yep, pretty much the case....we were in some pretty good company (Kirk Kerkorian, and a few others for example)...along the way.

    First amendment rights are still intact, but as the famous Rodney King said "can't we all just get along" LOL....

    FWIW, Mr. Schey one our best traders, and I can certainly say that Mav is an excellent trader/manager - and, gee....I can see those "A-type" personalities from here....pure testosterone and beer, LOL.

    And yes: "Don and I have a mutual respect for each other in that I don't think he is a bad guy, nor is his brother. However we see the business very differently. I have exchanged barbs with Don for years now. - I attest to Mav's remarks.

    Actually, makes for better ET fodder than a heck of a lot of other stuff we see here....LOL again.

    Well, now that Tiger Woods won his 7th straight tourney, I guess I can turn the TV and the computer off for a while....

  91. Gee, how did I know that Mike Schey traded with you Don? LOL. It was so hard to tell.

    Don, believe it or not, I think these conversations are very productive on ET. Not the bashing from the Mike Schey's of the world, but the back and forth on why we trade the way that we do.

    I was not attacking Bob in my previous posts but was interested in the logic behind the trade. I would love to do point/counter point with you Don, because as you know, I don't give anyone a free pass and I love to argue. LOL.

    If you want to debate the merits of that trade with me, I'm game. Or not, that's fine.

    If we changed the ticker to GOOG and instead of using 8 to 2 we used 500 to 125, you can see how bad that looks. BTW Don, over dinner, this is one of the things I didn't like about pair trading. The possibility of a pair blowing out and you having to turn it into a long term investment and add to a loser. Maybe not a big deal for Bob, but for most of the traders in your group, that isn't going to fly.
  92. Our students are taught to trade the way(s) that we see the most profit potential, and yes...they trade pairs and do a heck of a lot of funamental analysis (and a lot, lot, more). And, yes, risk is based on return potential and bankroll (but, no, I would not suggest that a new trader hold onto a long term trade in lieu of focusing on good trades, but then again, Bob is not a new trader and always has millions of shares in play).

    (Sorry for the multiple respoonses, still reading, still trying to turn off computer...but the "Mav and Mike Show" is so darn riveting.....

    Back to work tomorrow, thank goodness....

  93. a bit off subject...This is not a first time I heard from Mav ( and Riskarb) negative comments on pairs trading. Two ( or more) entities with the SAME stats vols AND very high correll , what can be so bad here ? What am I missing ?
  94. So the "trade" turned into an "investment". Thats no problem if you trading with money you can afford to lose.

    One thing I do recall were the fundamentals...they changed, they actually lost some money before it got better. I know this because after I blew out of the pair in my prop account, I bought PVN in my personal account. I made a good chunk of the money back, but by no means was this a good trade, it was a gamble.

    I suppose at 2 bucks a share your pot committed.

  95. I don't understand why Mav seems to blanket us pair traders with the same brush.

    There's probably over 30 strategies w/n pairco and I happen to know of several very good pair traders that only trade intraday, rarely holding any positions overnight.
  96. Mike and Mav,

    Spend your energy and time making some good money for your own account this week and than next weekend.....drink some beers, smoke some Herb and chill ......while watching the SuperBowl.

    Go Bears//////// Make love not war.
  97. I don't have anything against pair trading and certainly did not condemn it on this thread. My problem was with buying PVN from 8.00 all the way down to 2.00 and saying it was a great trade after it recovered, taking a 75% drawdown in the process. That has nothing to do with pair trading. Not sure how all my posts are being misunderstood on this thread. I have stated this now about 10 times.
  98. Jeff,

    This conversation was pretty friendly between me and Don before one of his pitbulls got let out of the cage. LOL. I couldn't shake that thing off my leg. Don is actually one of the few people on here I can have serious conversations with over trading without someone's ego getting bruised and ad hominem attacks. I'm not worried about the Bears, they'll take care of business. :)
  99. Perhaps you should go back and read what I said.

    I made no comment about anything you've said in this thread...all i said is that you've made generalisations about pair traders.

    Would you like an example?

    http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...perpage=6&highlight=pair trading&pagenumber=6

    If this is not a generalization, please tell me what is.
  100. When you are forced to attack the messenger, you have lost the argument. That's the take away here. Maverick had a problem with another trader implementing a very large, unleveraged trade that made 30 mm or so, and offered a risk reward ratio, on average, of greater then 2:1.

    I love monday morning quarterbacks. So, here is your chance. Would you please enlighten us on how Bob should have traded that position?

    Looking forward to your post. May I suggest you take some ritalin, sometimes you have problems focusing and keeping on point.

    As for Da Bears...I'm happy to see them back in the show. Given their recent performance, I'd hedge your bet. They just squeaked by Seatle....and Don't forget the beating the took from the pack. Should be a good game.
  101. Mav spins more then a 90 pound, $20 hooker in Tiajuanna, let's see what he has to say.....Mav what say you? :D
  102. I was referring to this thread. This whole thread was about the PVN trade, not about pair trading. I did not make any references to pair trading on this thread. Of course I have discussed pair trading before on ET. Don and I have discussed it for years. He knows I don't like the strategy but he has done well with it and that is all that matters. I'm still waiting for someone to post a pair trading reference from THIS thread. Good luck.
  103. Well Mike, here is a crazy idea, why not just get out of the trade? Oh right, that would be the disciplined approach. See Mike, I don't believe in turning short term trades into long term investments. I don't believe in staying in a position when the market is telling me I am wrong day after day. I don't believe in throwing good money after bad. I don't believe in rationalizing my bad trades because I can't pull the trigger to get out. How is that for how I would have handled that?

    I'm sorry Mike, you are not going to convince many people here on ET it's OK to hold a position that has gone 75% against you!!!!!!!! Not going to happen. Go ahead, keep calling me names. You have the maturity level of a 5 year old. At least Don and I can talk about it like adults. Maybe you should stay out of this conversation and let the adults talk about it.
  105. heres 15 year chart and it might not have anything to do with the trade because it was way before it but I saw it and thought maybe somebody might want to see what can happen if you anticipate the market using triangles and don't wait for a breakout to be confirmed, it sure looks like it was on its way to an upside breakout, higher lows bouncing off a trendline, consolidated for a good long time after that 8.00 to 70.00 run up and wham down she goes

  106. http://i14.tinypic.com/3y5emac.gif

    here it is before the crash

    riding a nice trendline , consolidating, bouncing off the center of the consolidation, 70-30=40 1/2 of 40 is 20 thats 50.00 the center line, had just bounced off it, if you had to guess which way it was going there was no reason to be negative, technically, I'm just saying watchout anticipating breakouts
  107. I have nothing but respect for Bright Trading and Maverick-and no comment on any of their trades. They are successful, and share with us all an amazing amount. (Thanks-and thanks for the interesting chats which I downloaded...)

    However, just wanted to make a comment on the previous poster's chart:
    For me, the chart you posted is a sell. Since I trade futures, I'd be holding open the possibility of that failing through a certain point and allowing me to quickly sell short. I quickly pasted onto a simple jpg and included some simple examples of common patterns where market moves up in a burst. You can see they are completely different.

    Edit: I am also aware of the Ascending Triangle Pattern for stocks, but the chart of this stock is not sufficient for this pattern.
  108. I don't know either Mav or Don, but they're both experienced professionals, and I have the utmost respect for both of them and anyone else who can carry on a reasoned discussion.

    Mav makes extremely valid points, but neglected to include a couple of things which should shut the detractors up:

    1) Opportunity cost.

    2) Compounding.

    It's one thing to wait two minutes, hours or days for a loss to turn around, quite another to wait two weeks, months or years.

    Not to mention that in the event that no recovery occurs, you are then trying to grow capital from a smaller base. One horrendous trade can wipe out years of gains, and one may never recover from it.

    I've been trading for 40 years. I've run $25 million of customer money in futures. I've personally made (and lost) more than $1 million in a single day. Early in the game, I wiped myself out on exactly the type of trade that Mav has criticized (fortunately it was just $5K I had run up to $50K.) Despite that experience, I've still all too often let stubborness cost me money when it shouldn't have. As in losing 2% when I should have lost 1%.

    The bottom line is that is that losers should be cut loose remorselessly if there's any plausible reason to think that your assessment was wrong.

    You may ultimately turn out to be right, but all you did was tie up capital which could have been profitably employed elsewhere, all the while putting yourself through an emotional wringer. All in pursuit of what may turn out to be a much bigger disaster than it already was 5 minutes or hours or days or weeks ago.

    Even if you have more money than God, as the Brights apparently do, there's still no point in holding a metastasizing loser. Better things could have been done with that capital in the meantime, even if it wasn't a significant part of net worth and its total loss wouldn't have put anyone in the poor-house.

    Preserve all segments of your capital at all costs. You can always reenter a trade after conducting a reassessment without the baggage of having a position. There's always another opportunity which can be viewed without the biases inherent in holding an existing position. If you want to accumulate big bucks, stay away from major capital dings.

  109. come on now

    patterns continue and patterns fail, your first example is the same triangle I put up and it continued and the third is one that failed, the chart I put up is a classic asending triangle that failed, up and then trading sideways with higher lows ina triangle and the top flat, i'll go thru and find many futures charts where they did both , thats why I say you have to watch

  110. http://i14.tinypic.com/29g0j9x.gif

    heres the same triangle in futures this morning, did you get short???

  111. heres a chart of this mornings futures and one that failed last week, I won't post anymore charts on this thread because its not for that I just saw a pattern that some guys will jump on before it plays out and thought that somebody might benefit


    triangle that worked for 45 points today the same amount as before the triangle


    this one failed
  112. Very well put. And pretty much my trading/investing philosophy. I hope I can make it 40 years in the market. Got 29 more to go...
  113. OK, I think we've pretty much beat this thing to death. I can say that there were no "opportunities lost" - why would there be? This is just one position, and as always, we try to keep only a slight (10%-15%) long bias for the overall Bright portfolio.

    Anyway, Bob will have a nice chuckle that everyone is concerned, LOL...

    All the best,

  114. Don, you've just hit on a hot topic for Maverick's and your next Paltalk discussion: Bright mostly short the market, Mav mostly long.

    That is, unless beforehand that difference in trading philosophy is also quickly debate-beaten-to-death in Round 2 of this thread...

    Or does Long vs. Short the Market deserve its own Don and Mav, Part Trois! (Live Chat) ET thread...? If so, just don't add another trader's name in the title...

  115. I said that we are long the market, with pairs of course, with the long side a bit bigger than the short side. I think we're good for now, as far as threads go...but thanks anyway.

  116. I'm always game for a chat, whether it be on Paltalk or in person. I might be in NY for the trader expo if anyone wants to match wits or exchange pleasantries. :)
  117. Let me know privately what you think of the expo this year. The Vegas expo was a mere fraction of what it was a couple of years ago. Maybe things are picking up there as well.

  118. Well, I'm much more bullish on FIA rather then the Trader Expos. But I'm going to NY on business and to meet a few traders.
  119. I thought the Las Vegas expo was very well attended this year. Much better than the last few I've attended.

    But NYC in february? That sounds cold!
  120. Well, how about then going to Vegas (the other financial capitol of the world) in November - for the wide-open Traders Expo - to meet a few (more) traders, and while there on business[poker playing/trading-honing being deductible, too] have a live/no-holds-barred S&P 500 Emini Trade-Off with Bob Bright hisself...?

    Hey, Traders Expo producers C&K Githler should give you and Don each a booth 'cause this star-studded Emini event (well-publicized all year to traders/Mav & Don fans here on EliteTrader.com) will pack 'em in for sure at the Expo.

    Wha'dya say, guys?

  121. The exhibit hall had so few exhibitors I couldn't believe it. When I went I saw maybe 100 people there, besides exhibitors. Way too many "speakers" - no way for anyone to see even a fraction of them, which makes for tough decisions by the attendees.

    As I've said before, the Gihtlers are extremely good at doing their InterShows - and there is hope that they can turn things around. We'll have to see.

  122. Don, there is a big difference between NY and Las Vegas. No one is going to go out of their way to go to Vegas for a trader expo. In NY, where there is a high concentration of traders, guys can sneak out on their lunch break and check it out. Not to mention it's easier to meet other traders there because they don't even have to go to the expo, they live there!!! LOL.

    Personally the only good thing about these expos is the fact you can take to the software companies and get answers from them that you can't get by calling or e-mailing them because they have no customer service.
  123. AND what do YOU know about that?


    YOUR mother :mad:
  124. Well, Vegas is the convention capital of the world, but I was just comparing apples to apples over the last few years...it seems that the expo is about 25% of what it was 3-4 years ago.

    And, yes, I would run into a few 'real' traders at the NYC expo, and it was good to see some of the other firm's....but lately, very few are going, so I end up hanging out with Goldman guys all day, LOL.

    But, enjoy it and let me know what you think overall...thanks!!

    As I said, if anyone can revive a show, the Gihtler's sure can.

  125. I'll take on Bob. Could we sell tickets for this event? Pay per view?
  126. Way to go, Mav! I knew you'd be up for a head-to-head futures trading challenge with Bob Bright. Only thing is, being primarily an equities trader, I'm pretty sure Bob is fairly new to trading the ES, but I'll let Don weigh-in from here on those qualifications - or any other qualifiers/limitations/handcuffs, etc. :D

    If the Githlers are as Expo attendee-smart as they've shown to be in the past (and need to be now), they'll arrange a suitable face-off platform. If Tim Bourguin and Jim Sugarman’s original International Online Trader's Expo in 1999 helped pull in mobs of run 'n gun traders featuring a pay-fer strip show (man, was she voluptuous), then accomplished straight-shooters like you and Bob Bright ought to command a $tanding room-only crowd of appreciative $easoned traders.

    Let the taunts begin.
  127. You do know that a bunch of speakers at the Trader's Expo do trade live and you can watch them if you are not interested in just a pissing match lol

  128. Just for full disclosure, LOL..... Bob has been a trading member of the CME since the early 1980's...and does just fine with futures. Averages about 2400 contracts per day.

    Pay for view...now we're talking..

  129. Be careful about that...I know for a fact that many (not just one or two like Franz) of these guys are "not" trading live. I'm not saying that what they may have to say is not of value, it's just very few make live trades.


  130. I'll be in NY Feb 17th to the 20th for the Trader Expo if anyone wants to talk shop. I'm still looking for the ET cocktail party. :)
  131. <IMG SRC=http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=771397>
    No problem Mav, when you hook up with this investor/trader at the NYC Traders Expo,
    you can be sure he'll also be heading to Baron's EliteTrader-T-giveaway cocktail party

  132. LOL!
  133. Hey, I think we even had Steve Cohen stop by one year for the ET cocktail party and to get his free ET shirt!!!! You never know who will stop by.