Home > General Topics > Wall St. News > Cyprus deal 40% haircut

Cyprus deal 40% haircut

  1. Wow, they are really going to T off the wrong crowd. 40% haircut on depositors holding more then $130k. Supposedly reported by Agence France Presse, not sure how credible the numbers are.
     
  2. Expected!

    http://www.newsru.com/finance/25mar2013/zasedanie.html

    depositors of laiki bank -40%. bank of cyprus-20%, rest of the banks-deposits over 100K -4%

    less than 100K-nothing.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/japan-stocks-jump-after-reports-of-cyprus-deal-2013-03-24

    Japan stocks jump after reports of Cyprus deal
     
  3. This is going to end badly
     
  4. Another handout for the bankers.
     
  5. i'm not sure wtf is going on. one of the possible outcomes been mentioned is pre WW2 situation(USA!USA!)
    with idea is that the history will repeat itself..
    when there is a mess everywhere(japan,europe)-money will flow into US ! yuppie!

    one problem-(imo) at this point of the game-US doesn't really need any money from outside. Benny and Co can print whatever the f*** they want.
     
  6. Bankers always win, otherwise how can you explain Jon Corzine not being in jail...
     
  7. It's time they lose. Fuck them. Iceland did the right thing.

    The whole system is corrupted by these bitches.
     
  8. Foreign money flowing into the US > Printing
     
  9. How do you conclude that from the deal? I find your conclusion bizarre given that all insured accounts < 100k EUR were left untouched. Aside the fact that there were certain individuals "in-the-know" and moved billions out of the country a week before the issue surfaced, I would say the deal cuts deepest into the pockets of Russians and the wealthy. Maybe you wanna think before you come out with your comical comments.

     
  10. You guys are blaming the wrong group of people for the economic nightmare that is unfolding.
     
  11. 'one problem-(imo) at this point of the game-US doesn't really need any money from outside. Benny and Co can print whatever the f*** they want"

    printing money is not the same as others demanding your money.
    if you print money you stoke inflation and destroy the currency.
     
  12. Thanks for proving my point. The banks received yet another bailout via monetization and depositor confiscation. What part of robbery don't you understand?
     
  13. Oh right. And who is that?
     
  14. in a capitalist system the depositor should also pay for not doing their
    due diligence.
     
  15. I agree. But all we have are depositors taking it up the ass, to save banks!

    If we're going to have losses, let both depositors AND BANKS go bankrupt. Fuck them.

    Either that, or backstop all deposits and let the bankers twist.

    See? We've gone down the worst possible road - financial sector bailouts paid for by the private sector.
     
  16. They do. Cause that's the system. But Iceland said FUCK YOU BANKERS. And arrested their asses. Which is exactly what we need to do. Let the banks fail, round up these little bitches like Geithner, Bernacke, Blankfien etc, and put them in prison.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. robbery? Maybe you wanna first capture the big picture before making bold statements like that. Maybe you can account for us a single HONESTLY earned euro that was deposited by ANY RUSSIAN into ANY Cyprus bank? Then we can talk robbery. Please convince us that less than 95% of deposits above 100k euros are not from illicit sources. Then we can talk robbery.

    Point being, that country is a harbor and rat hole for illicit funds from Russia and many other dark sources around the globe. Everyone gets what they ask for.

     
  18. that is why one bank is entirely dismantled, shutdown, management fired. What else, you wanna hang someone? Did you lose a penny? If not then shut up and let the poor Russians mourn.

     
  19. you got the point..

    who would trust this guy?
    [​IMG]

    Cesare Lombroso is the man!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesare_Lombroso

    :)

     
  20. 40% ain't a harcut. It's a leg amputation.
     
  21. How would you know that? There's no way you could know that, for a fact.

    As for what you're implying - should every depositor in a tax haven country take a 50% haircut because, according to you (who doesn't know shit), all tax haven depositors are "criminals"?? Lol There's something like an estimated ~46 Trillion on bank in tax havens around the world.
     
  22. It's called letting free markets work. That means allowing every insolvent (and their depositors/investors) fail. Picking winners and losers is not what free markets are about. That's how gangsters operate. Which is exactly what's going on Europe and the US. Eliminating competition. Not surprised you got fooled by it.
     
  23. a) Cyprus is not a tax haven
    b) Cyprus has among the laxest laws in terms of anti-money laundering guidelines and the weakest enforcement of any developed economy, it ranks very high on locations of criminal financial activity
    c) A week ago close to 5 billion euros left the country, reportedly (witness account of bankers and staff) belonging to accounts held with government affiliates, families and "friends"
    d) that same week pretty much everyone flying into Cyprus came from Russia, guess why.

    If you still think Cyprus is a reputable financial services center then you must be dumb. Enough said. The ONLY reason the EU shows interest in not letting this rat hole down is because of its reputation it must maintain with the rest of the central European "citizens". Otherwise this island would have already drowned years ago in its financial bribery, money laundering and criminal activity slump.

     
  24. lol, you are contradicting yourself. If every depositor should fail along with his bank then a haircut of 40% sounds very moderate in comparison. Yes gangsters, all bankers are gangsters. And to excite you even more, I have been one of those evil prop traders in investment banks and hedge funds for over a decade before I started running my own hft firm. Now I rip off small people like you on spreads and slippage. Gosh, I love conspiracy theorists who only believe in conspiracy A but not B. Makes me chuckle.

     
  25. The corrupt assholes that set fiscal policy.

    The bankers are just doing what they do.... profit seeking.

    The political class is the issue. But ultimately they just answer to the voters, and the voters want free stuff which they don't want to pay for via taxes.
     
  26. a much more honest analysis, Cyprus in effect is in exactly the same situation as Greece. Nobody in this country understands the concept of "pay for what you can afford" but everything about "entitlements". That goes all the way down from the political ruling class to the working class. Everyone attempts to cheat the last penny out of the system for self-serving profit maximization. That would generally be acceptable as a human trait but in this case people have no issues whatsoever to overstep boundaries and to evade taxes which in pretty much ANY society is declared an unlawful and federal offense. Stealing is the mantra of the day and that is why they are going down and I stand by, watch, and laud and applaud the more pain there is because I am sick of seeing northern Europeans getting raped and blamed for all this mess. Let them get into bed with the Russians as long as Germany and Co can stay far away.

     
  27. Talking out of your ass seems to be one of your strong suits. Since you know everything, where's the ES gunna close tomorrow?
     
  28. thanks for providing any value added, other than bitching, moaning and wining about evil bankers. On ignore.

     
  29. Don't flatter yourself. Only the ones on the top are gangsters. The insignificant maggots on the bottom that make a living front running orders and polluting the book to get a nanosecond edge - like you - are just bottom feeders. Sure, your ilk bought off regulators to make stealing legal, but that's just how cretins roll. Couldn't figure out how to make it as a real trader, so you had to invent ways to steal from those who could. You're not a shot caller. But like the guys on the top, you're a parasite. Your days are numbered, too. Don't worry :)
     
  30. I'm not sure what a "real trader" is, but let's not act like a "real trader" is any different than a banker or a real estate developer, or a business owner/investor. All take positions and try to profit from them.

    You're the pot calling the kettle black.
     
  31. While I'm no supporter of banks "too big to fail" there is a lot of truth in your statement.
     
  32. There's lots of blame to go around. But lets not over-complicate the issue. Free markets work by punishing failure, and rewarding success. Agreed? When insolvents are propped up, failure is rewarded, and the successful (savers) are punished. This creates moral hazard. LTCM > Nazdaq > housing bubble > 2008. Real simple.

    At the very least, insolvent banks (and their depositors/investors) need to go bankrupt. What we have is a "solution" where Bankers escape any kind of market discipline, where management themselves evade any type of legal repercussions, and alll losses are suffered by shareholders/investors/depositors/and the general public. Only one side is taking the loss. And that's the public.
     
  33. The ES can go to 1600 now.
     
  34. Sure, and so does a drug dealer, a hitman, and a pornographer. They're trying to "profit", too....
     
  35. Please. You buy and sell stuff with the intention of profiting off of the market. A bank lends and invests money with the intention of profiting. Both operate within the confines of the law. How are you superior?

    I'm sure you believe the Fed is the root of all evil and the world was perfect before central banks.
     
  36. Ya, and insider trading is illegal, numbnuts. Except for Congress (they exempted themselves). And HFT shops - most front run executable orders. Know what the spirit of the law, means?

    The FED. Here we go with that old chesnut. Listen, if you want free markets, it means letting bankrupts fail. Do you understand that? Apparently, not.
     
  37. I do not think you will succeed in enlightening someone who on one side claims he believes in free markets and then declares banks the root of all evil basically suggesting there was no such evil before central banks stepped in. I do not even believe he can reconcile his own thoughts because they are just contradictory.

    Banks have always just been part of the problem, someone claiming the financier is the issue in the free enterprise system demonstrates a very limited understanding and vision of the system surrounding him.

     
  38. This is going to make every weak European bank insolvent. Who's going to hold excessive deposits knowing there's not going to be any protection on these accounts. This is just plain stupid.
     
  39. agree but still better than signaling the small guy in France, Spain, Italy that its time to get their sub 100k accounts closed and all the cash out of the system would you not agree? I guess this time Angela was not willing to top up the account anymore, thus more drastic measures. I welcome all those developments, the faster we hit a wall in Europe and elsewhere the faster at least a chance comes to truly wash out the system and start over. It generally starts with the small guy on the street, as long as he thinks the honey continues flowing freely from the mountains up north (a.k.a. Germany, Holland, Scandinavia, ...) nothing will change. Party is over pal, time to wake up and foot the bill. Once the blue collar worker has to count the pennies in the pocket again, he will hold his electorate responsible. Real change always starts at the bottom of the pyramid.

     
  40. Sorry but why the fuck do you guys all care about what happens to the cryprus people and how unfair/immoral it may be??! :confused:

    This is a TRADING forum ffs, NOT a political morality forum!


    So why does everyone rant on about their view on the politics,
    instead of live-calling what trades they are making currently based on this??
     
  41. If I was over there I certainly would have withdrawn my savings already.
     
  42. Perhaps it's too stupid because its very clever, depending on who wants a predictable outcome on what comes next. It's like a Livermore market test.
     
  43. Didnt they block access so no-one could withdraw their funds?
     
  44. Banks have been closed for something like 10 days. Initially no withdrawals then they allowed ATM withdrawals max 260 Euro. Don't know if that was per day or 1 time, saw it on BBC news and the sign was in Greek.
     
  45. Oh I wouldn't be surprised, but I meant if I was pretty much anywhere in the EU.
     
  46. It is per day and it is now lowered to 100 euro per day at the two large troubled banks.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/24/eurozone-cyprus-withdrawals-idUSL5N0CG0VA20130324

    With the new bailout, I imagine it will be increased back up at all banks.

    I was under the impression that ATM withdrawals have never been closed off completely.
     
  47. No no. What we need to do is confiscate more bank accounts, impoverish more people, and print even more trillions, to bailout the very banks that created this crisis. And you're going to lecture us about free markets? You haven't a clue. Nor does your buddy.

    As for the rest of it, it's pure trash. You're putting words in my mouth. I could run circles around you all day, son.
     
  48. europe is taking a yo on this bet. good luck to them.
     
  49. Uninsured deposits are uninsured.

    It is the same in the U.S.

    Numerous small banks in the U.S. fail each year, and often the deposits over the FDIC limit are lost.

    That is the exactly the same in Greece under the terms of the final bailout.

    Deposits under E100,000 and all deposits at healthy banks will be honored.

    It is true that it is their largest two largest banks that are failing though.......
     
  50. Perhaps not. The early BBC reports had people lamenting the fact that many businesses would only do cash transactions and that they were running low on cash.

    Possibly just the troubled banks then, or some other factor.
     

  51. It is theft by confiscation, plain and simple. Makes no difference if it is Russian money, US money, or my money.
     
  52. Only one of the banks is a 40% haircut, the other could be all gone above 100k.
     
  53. Most deals in the financial transaction sphere are two sided. One wins the other loses.
    There is so much smoke and mirrors I haven't spotted the winners. George Soros is probably in the mix somewhere.

    I can't see the Russian mafia taking it lying down !!
    Rumour is that Beresofski was messing with them too.
     
  54. Theft? No. Confiscation? Yes. This is not a pure banking crisis, let's not forget that The Cypress government is close to bankruptcy, we are not only talking about a single bank here. Who benefited for years from the accounting lies, starting with the application to join EU membership, tax evasion, the tax income from all those banks that were allowed to operate in this shady protectorate? It was its own citizens and everyone held their pockets wide open. Now they scream when the party comes to a halt? Sorry but Cyprus and other tax havens are a huge difference, one houses pretty much the worst of the worst bucket shop and shady brokerage houses in the world, the others compete for hedge fund assets. One opened their doors to money laundering allegations and with that ended up pretty much high up in the rankings of countries that harbor illicitly earned money, the other cooperated with the U.S. and other developed countries in eradicating tax evasion schemes. Sorry but I just cannot share some of your tears and sorrow for that place and its people. Everyone who parked more than 100k should have known what they had coming or at least been well informed of the risks involved. Its like banking with the same institution in Macao that functioned as Kim Jung Il's house bank to wash his drug money.

    I do not deny that some of the innocent will always get squeezed in between but come on folks, seriously, this is definitely a deal that kept damage to the small guy to a minimum. What else do you want?


     
  55. hftvol, i agree with you.
    however, do you think that deposits under 100k EUR can be withdrawn?

    there is a limit of 100 eur per day! forget it, man!

    and this is exactly what would happen in every other country- during a bank run only about 3-8% of deposits could be taken out in a form of banknotes.
    There is hardly even that amount of paper bank notes printed!
     
  56. You are German, aren't you?
     
  57. are you trying to make a point? the greeks and southern europe are a bunch of thieves. the germans allowed this group of thieves into the eu. now it is time to pay the price.
     
  58. All these pint sized countries are in the same business Caymans, Bahamas, Bermuda, Monaco, Lichtenstein, Andorra, Singapore, Hong Kong, Dubai, Luxembourg, Malta, CYPRUS etc. they have tourism and banking thus the only solution is UNIVERSAL banking rules and regulation...
     
  59. This weekend a reporter asked an europarlementarian: is there enough money to pay in case the 100K rule has to be applied?

    After repeating the question at least four times the europarlementarian gave up saying "yes" and admitted that there is a political decision but no money in case it would be necessary.
    But he added that "later" there will be enough money.

    This 100k insurance is a big joke and a big lie. All countries have to size down all their expenses, so there is no money left.
     
  60. In Cyprus banking sector was 7.5 times the GDP, in Luxembourg banking sector is 23 times the GDP.
     
  61. like my mother always told me

    7 come 11

    you can and should bet on it
     
  62. yes its scary but the insured deposits under 100k are safe (for fear of a total disintegration of public trust in the financial system, and that is the precise reason they altered the whole deal). You can't get your money out for several days/weeks but so what. Same happened on Wall Street same happened in every banking crisis.

     
  63. Its not a joke, its just that you do not understand a fractional reserve banking system. It works great and has always worked great until a complete breakdown of trust occurs. Even then no money is lost, its just that not every tard who runs to the bank will get their full deposit on the same day. Simple as that. I use the word tard because those are stupid people. If they were smart enough they had been pulling out funds weeks/months before. If they were a little smarter they knew that standing in line of a bank that is shut down will not get you anything.

    What really gets me are all those naysayers who can only complain, they don't want communism, they do not want completely unregulated free markets, they do not want the current system. Heck, they do not really know themselves what they want. (not addressing you directly, Mtrader).

     
  64. Just think only a week ago, accounts over 100K were safe as well. Today they are not apparently.

    If fractional reserve worked so well, what happened in 2008 when liquidity disappeared? Why did the FED and governments react and why is there unemployment? Didn't they know that "even then no money is lost"? Was it just a case of bigger company tards? Apparently the smarter the people are the easier to predict the future, using that reasoning you must be one of the richest people on earth. You apparently knew all this would happen long enough ahead to withdraw all your money.

    The ones in front of the bank are the ordinary people that need food, water, gasoline etc. and don't have wads of cash stored at home. They had total trust in money. Never thought about it being a derivative. They can't live off physical money itself. Having no money and no bread doesn't get you anything either. May as well stand in line.

    The breakdown of trust came from the system breaking down, not the other way around. How can the system break down if it is so great? Do we need more tard laws?
     
  65. Which country in Europe is next?
    How much longer will the euro exist?
     
  66. Don't confuse him with facts. Even uninsured depositors get their money back in full, so long as they "wait in line a few days". That's how fractional reserve banking "works", after all....
     
  67. 1. Don't know but there are several nice options

    2. 5 years? Probably much less, but don't underestimate their ability to kick the can down the road.
     
  68. Yeah...I just see this bubble bursting in the not so distant future.
     
  69. a) The fractional reserve banking system has worked for decades and I would claim has never really failed. Almost never has a depositor whose funds were insured in ANY jurisdiction lost his money in the end due to a banking crisis. Please show me an example. You should be careful to not fall victim to spurious correlation. Hyper inflation or other economic crises cannot be traced back to a faulty fractional reserve banking system. A dictator who nationalizes assets is not related to a faulty fractional reserve banking system, there is simply not logical relationship between the two.

    b) yes smarter and ethical people bank at smart locations and smart institutions. There are tons of people on this site, I am willing to wager, who traded through Cyprus-based shady retail brokerage houses who did not honor their commitments, front-ran clients, including outright theft without the slightest protection in favor of clients. Why would an intelligent person want to do trade with such institution? Why would an intelligent person bank with a Cyprus bank domiciled in a country that is about to blow up (its not that their CDS spresds widened overnight, the precarious situation has been known for many months) UNLESS you believe you can get out even when the house is burning (which implies you profit from insider knowledge and preferential treatment).

    c) Yes, I would have never and will never bank with anyone in Cyprus. Nor would I ever bank with an institution in the Ukraine or Russia for that matter. I miss out on opportunities and yield but I just am not willing to take such risk. So, does that put me into the camp of the smarter people on this planet? Long-term probably yes, in the middle of boom cycles probably not. You chose.

    d) Nobody in Cyprus is living on the street BECAUSE they could not get more than 100 euros per day out of their ATMs. Please play the ball low and do not be such a drama queen. Nor has anybody with insured deposits lost a penny, and even in the worst case a 6.75% haircut that was on the table for deposits <100k initially took 6750 euros out of your pockets, you are telling us that the average citizen did not benefit by a multiple of that over the past 9 years Cyprus has enjoyed all the EU privileges that they cheated themselves into? Are you suggesting that all economic evil in this world is brought upon by corrupt and greedy politicians and bankers? That the US financial crisis had nothing to do with the greed of the average person on the street wanting to believe they deserve their own house and 2 cars and annual vacation no matter how little their income. Are you trying to convince us that Cyprus's situation is because a few bankers and politicians had just a few too many good times and squandered wealth? Please, tell me you at least see a reasonable amount of responsibility lying in the laps of every citizen.

     
  70. Plus debit cards working as well so they buy purchases with the debit card in addition..........
     
  71. All the Russian Millionaires and Billionaires are shaking in their parkas
    now !
     
  72. It always amuses me how we find ways to justify these type of things.

    We feel everything needs to have a quick conclusion so we can stamp our opinion on it.

    We are in a rush to make sense of it all. As was the taking of peoples funds from their accounts.

    Yes it was not planned out at all. That is why it takes so long to resolve it.

    The problem is that people think governments are stupid They are destroying a system. But they have a plan and everything is organised.

    You cant look at Cyprus without looking at the rest of the world. Everything is out of context.

    Look at the real results. Look at them everywhere.
     
  73. There is a world of difference between cash and a debit card.
     
  74. digital money = control of the masses
     
  75. My point was they could buy groceries.
     
  76. Once upon a time...
    There was a concept called Fiduciary Responsibility...
    Which most politicians and bankers and lawyers and brokers took seriously...
    And the Rule of Law still held sway in the Developed World.

    The "average person" does not build States and their Institutions...
    And, therefore, is not responsible for their failure.
     
  77. Really? You may want to study ancient history and the rise and collapse of empires. Every revolution in China was brought about by corruption and greed. And each time a revolution succeeded, the bottom feeders who originally rose up turned in the same corrupt people they fought against before. Surprise? Please do not try to convince me there was a time in history where lawyers, politicians, or bankers were civil, honest, self-less, public servants. For every honest, community minded bureaucrat and politician there are 9 others, 1 of which destroys the hard work of the 1 honest one and 8 others indulging in corrupt schemes.

    Of course does the average person build states, what do you think is your right to vote other than a direct power in your hand to decide who comes and who goes.

    All above pertains obviously to a democratic society

    My point was that its not just a few people on top who can force the masses to take on ridiculous mortgages, behave in irresponsible ways. It was a shared responsibility and the average citizen has the same civil rights AND duties than any other politician has.

     
  78. My point was the Cyprus incident is a test case in forcing more away from cash and tangibles, so entities can seize wealth through confiscation and taxation.
     
  79. Well that's on a somewhat different theme.

    I was just responding to those concerned that people could not live on $100 a day. I was just making the factual point that most also had use of debit cards for purchases.

    Will governments look to ways to effectively tax and cash equivalents? Yes, I agree that they will.
     
  80. A member of the Cypriotic parlement handed over a list to a member of the European parlement.
    The list mentioned a number of Cypriotic politicians and companies that had loans at the Laiki Bank and the Bank of Cyprus. All these loans were written off some time ago and did not have to be paid back.

    So while people lose their saving accounts and taxpayers have to save the banks, these banks donated hundreds of thousands and apparently in 1 case millions of euros to a few lucky corrupt people.

    Apparently some American journalists have a copy of this list.
     
  81. Or they wrote them off thinking their German cousins will bail them out i.e. screwing the Germans...
     
  82. Simple cronyism and pandering to the elite.

    Screwing the Germans would just be a bonus.
     
  83. Democracy is when a leader of a country can control its country. An elected politician that says no money will be taken from your account and the next day its gone is just a neighbour.

    Democracy is an election to what style of delivery you prefer. the delivery will always come.

    Did anything change since obama took over ? did the printing stop, did the war did the eduction the economy anything ? no. It is just a bit more hidden and more tech savy. Even the terror and fear are there. it is just more on the tech side.
     
  84. To answer your question, yes Russians will still go to Cyprus because, Cyprus has sandy beaches and warm Mediterranean weather they do not have but in much reduced numbers.
     
  85. On Linkedin there is an ad by Austarlia or banks related to Australia that says bank with us we are not Cyprus we will not take 30% of your accounts. The ad is in relation to Forex accounts that were in Cyprus.
     
  86. Have a link for that one?
     
  87. Sometimes when the juggler is real good it is hard to envision it all tumbling down. Ponzi was not even that good (a financial idiot not competent in simple math) and he got the balls moving for awhile. Check out this excerpt from Wikipedia which may or may not be accurate:

    When a Boston financial writer suggested there was no way Ponzi could legally deliver such high returns in a short period of time, Ponzi sued for libel and won $500,000 in damages. As libel law in those days placed the burden of proof on the writer and the paper, this effectively neutralized any serious probes into his dealings for some time.

     
  88. This is so true...

    Sincerely,

    RefcoFX Director
     
  89. Unfortunately, Linkedin won't let me copy and paste...
     
  90. Say you have some cash. and they want your cash. well they can take or ask for it. either way they can enforce it.

    say you have some cash and they all of it. now its a bit tricky. you have to give them some thing in return for it. Or sell them something. but the thing you sell should have great mark up and perceived value.

    But still most people tend to use budgets and do not spend or invest all their money on worthless things.

    So the easy way to take their money is by using commodities that are not controlled too much.

    So we take tress and sell it to people but we break it in to thin slices and stamp a brand name on them. Naturally, like rats people line up to buy this printed paper. now the banks have all the money. and you have a piece of paper.

    which has the value the money or the branded paper?
    Well the public decide, and since they have the branded paper they say it has value. The money is worthless and given to the bank.


    People line up to buy branded paper. Sorry, let me re word it correctly.
    People line up to give the bank all the money they have been saving for and using for years on end.

    They give all. Next day they find some money and say to them selves, Gosh darn I forgot to give them this coin in my couch, how un communist of me. they quickly run back to the bank and explain that they found some money and if it is not too late can you please take it.

    The banker looks at them and says, look we cant have this. I want you to go home and check every where for evey penny and bring it to me tommorow, if after that you find more, im sorry but i dont think we will take it.

    so every penny is given. and the giver feels peace. Oh on a side note they have some branded paper.

    well then one day banks see something is wrong. they have all the money but there is no demand for it . people were trading with tress (or branded paper). Luckily people placed their branded paper in the banks.

    the banks says gosh darn we have all the money and the digital money.
    with some branded paper.

    lets freeze the branded paper in the name of what ever conspiracy is mentioned in this thread. Well then it will be untrusted.

    Gee I wonder what happens next ?
    Or, maybe we can assume that taking paper from people will actually make the bank money. wait a sec they have all the money so they cant make more.

    I don't know maybe the euros are really soft and good to use in bathrooms in rolls ?

    Anyways, lets just look at russia and this and that.

    Oh wait, there is yet another scenario...

    if people accepted the paper as money , lets take that paper. how though hmmmm..

    how can we get people to line up at our banks and give us their money again? hmmm

    lets freeze take, de credit the money and have them line up to give it to us yet again.

    great now what ? we have all the money we have all the papper now what ?

    well lets do that again, heck every time we do it they give it to us, and they do not want us to print creating inflation or what ever.

    So the people lined up to give money. imagine if they came to take money...... oh no.. they would not allow that. it is a one way door. it is a run to banks.

    well we have doubled out money supply and maybe we can triple it or quadruple it. branding is fun !!!!

    rules ? nah we got rid of those. elected states men? nah they have no say.

    Look its not that bad. they are just taking your papper when you have enough to give them. Maybe not enough to pay their debt.

    debt.... hmmm, break rules, want more, hmm
    government has debt they can never pay. so do people. I think we should abolish debt or something kinda along those lines... hmmm
    I bet you have a nice house. papers all signed all legal work is perfect. maybe you have money owing or maybe you do not. either way its a pretty nice house. the money and papper you gave us were great, but you have been holding out on us. your house is great. Oh right it is protected by law and common sence. it is yours according to your elected statesman who foolishly lets him self be governed by the law.

    tuff for him i guess. he cant have it. But we here at the paper processing center... if you hand it to us and sign it to us. we will take it . I mean common, do you really trust your bank ? give it to us or there will be no one to take it. hurry.

    if you regret it, just remember we will kick you ass in just like we tried in the riots. but now we have better aim cause your face book lets us know where your hole is (thanks for tweeting about your bowel movements)
    .

    Hungry ? ill sell you some Monsanto apples. mmmm mmm good
     
  91. We will be very lucky if end up with a 55% recovery (45% haircut) on PFG Best accounts in the USA.

    So far, we have only 30% recovery (70% hairvut).

    I believe that a number of small banks have gone under in the USA with little or no recovery of amounts above the FDIC insurance amount.

    So this is nothing new........
     
  92. Cyprus and PFG are two different cases. PFG was fraud, there was no fraud in Cyprus, just nationalistic arrogance ( desire to help Greece out despite the facts), incompetence ( most basic rule of investing is diversification) and desire to make Germans pay i.e. Greek Cypriots doubled down on Greece knowing recovery was highly unlikely, this was done on the assumption that Germans will pay to bail Cyprus out when Germans caught a whiff of this thus the "Cyprus event".
     
  93. I agree that these are two different cases but to say there was no fraud in Cyprus is at best premature and probably naive. Once a Russian enters the room fraud is likely. If there are two of them it becomes a near certainty.

     
  94. Russians did not own the Cypriot banks, were not the Central Bankers or the minister of Finance in Cyprus. The fraud Russians committed were laundering money through Cypriot banks and which did not cause their failure just the opposite it helped Cyprus and its banks flourish.
     
  95. Maybe there is no problem?

    I have been doing a bit of learning, tus out that debt it not really a big deal. It makes sence of why there is no inflation in the USA either.

    It is possible that peoples perception of debt is the problem. Because of the perception countries find it hard to print money.

    Actually money it self really is not much.

    Japan has been trying so hard to bring in inflation and it just cant! It prints and prints, nothing happens.

    They export, yet nothing.
    US imports as much as they can. the doors are open. they take from countries and give paper.

    We get stuff they get money. In essence "They" are our slaves working 10 hours a day so we can have our spoils.

    I know it must be more complex. but they say that the USA (and any country) can pay off its debt simply by wiping out every ones saving.

    the amount saved is equal to the debt to the dollar.

    I dont understand it completely (as money goes out?)

    but that is it take all the finnacial holdings of US citizens and it should equale the debt.

    The USA does not take a loan from any country in reality. other countries invest in our loan at their risk.

    printing is good. that is why the USA does it. They just need to print more. Either that or people need to let go of savings. A tax holiday with the printing press one would solve our problems. but the people do not allow it .

    That is where the EU comes in, they all agreed to give up the power to print. this means that printing is no longer controlled by the people (they have no say)

    Problem solved ? not quite, you gota slow your way in to it a bit to make people think you are doing a better job then the old system to make sure the people have faith in the currency as they are misinformed.

    Also some balancing of the countries makes people feel like things are fair before the bail outs comes. The bail outs should be done in a way that the USA does and not so much by country.

    governments can they start highering and creating jobs and then create sales.

    Every dollar printed stays in the economy and nothing is really lost.
    Its goods that have value, importers make money. Chine exports but they also import and try to store commodities. so they are importers and exporters.

    Africa exports so they loose as always.

    the greedy make money.

    Just for a second imagine that a country can print whatever it wanted to and it would have no effect but make its citizens richer.

    Inflation is not an issue as we see .

    this new idea may be catching on. inflation is not an issue, we were scared of something and never questioned if it was there. interest is so low, printing so high. no big change. wars, housing bubbles ect. price stays relatively steady.

    Now as people learn this they may say, wait a sec, that means that the gold price is not up cause of inflation,. it is just demand.

    gold is not as interesting to people who now see. (assuming that this is new knowledge)

    Gold stagnates. It is still a commodity, and importing anything is good as you bring wealth through products.

    The euro just needs to turn on the machine once it is sure that the currency is accepted.

    Actually it is said that when people pay taxes the government just deletes the money. they don't need it, it is just paper.

    If they cant print, they try to decrease taxes. friction again. so they try interest rates. the alternative is to get money out of peoples accounts.
    what would you try to do if the banks failed? youd try to withdraw.

    Oh but you cant ! hmmm now you are really worried, how will i get the money out you ask ? there is not enough cash.

    Heck no time to think, just do whatever buy a car, you can resell it down the line. just get your money out of the bank... that has the same effect as printing. it creates sales that create jobs.

    That would mean all this commotion is just because people don't understand the simplicity of the situation!!

    Try to explain it to them and they think Bernake is pulling our leg. Ron Paul made him look like fool! well yeah sure, that is because it is just so simple that you dont have to really know much.

    printing has done nothing but brought us happiness. Reversing that is has brought us problems.

    But since people wanted a conspiracy, they had to give them one. They create a problem that is so big that printing wont be looked down on so much. Kinda like tHE USA does with war.

    Individuals are limited, they cant print, the rules are not the same. the casino can make as many chips as it wishes nothing really changes.

    Think about it, say you have a bunch of money. another guy spends it all and buys land cars a food supply a farm a cow. whos rich?

    Why else would they join the EURO ? to make trade easier ? was it hard ?

    government hiring is frowned upon unless there is war. so the people make it hard and force war upon them selves.

    I wonder about sanctions. in Iran and North korea. Do the sanction limit imports or exports. Im sure iran sells oil. but they cant import.

    why would they want iran to continue to export ? 80 % of exports are oil. so they can only limit imports. under the old system this would make them rich. It would be better to do nothing and allow imports to stop.

    But the new system says money is worthless "it is no obhect" so they can only export tangibles. there reserves of oil goes down.

    So why is the gold holding a secret ? cause they sold the gold as it is better for the economy. (some how)(basically everything is opposite)

    And then the Germans ask for their gold back... they want it back at a slow rate.

    this should force the US to try to print more. but they will have friction.
    Germanys demand back is kinda of slowing the economy. Assuming the germans asked for their gold without aby previous discusions with USA (a bit unlikely) that would make germany the enemy.

    If it was like many think, one countries loss would be the others gain. but whos change in rate of growth added to the USA's rate of growth equals 0? IS there a winner?

    No country wins. the people just have too much saved. pensions, tax shelters 401 what ever.

    If we do not let them print, we force them to rob us so we can have jobs. How much debt is too much ? Seems like the consensus is that we should stop whenever we hear numbers that have an extra digit.

    billions we are used to but trillions is bit hard.. that must be where it all breaks down we think.

    but we can print our way out of it forever.

    They dont care about currency, or money. Inflation maybe a bit, but it is another story that is not as related. They just want to make sure people have jobs. Or money even if it is free money. Then the people are happy. Now thorugh all of this there will be personal corruption where people place themselves in lucrative situation. But they do not have to "bakrupt the country" to be in such positions. It is as easy as to place your self in the right market trying to help the country (just reverse your position)

    We are forcing them to merge in a way that laws are bent and broken so that the politicians are no longer linked to the stigma of printing money. They getting bored of finding ways to lie and do dumb things and to do the right thing in order to some how get you to vote them in again.
    Why the dont do infrastructure? i dont know. cause it is a corrupt system? Or possibly because it is a long term effort. and when things start to move they need to lay off fast to keep optimum levels. They feared inflation. it was not there. now may be they are a bit worried about negative unemployment. not cause it is bad but it is unknown.
    So they higher people to do stupid things out of sight. They tell them to go and site in the DMZ and stare at people staring at one another.

    Id like to think that some one in china buying the USD complicates things and will put things in a new perspective. but I dont thing that may happen.

    It just so may be that money is simply worthless. food may be worth more. People may catch on, Hence the monsato alliance. Maybe the banks were not in control the government just wanted to use them to make money. the NWO os about hard assets. All of a sudden monsato is in the back pocket of the GOV. lobbying ? sure but which way?
    Goldman sachs sitc in the government. we assume that they control the government. maybe just maybe the government said to goldman ;; look if you let us mess with your heads and work with us we will give you a nice coucheny retirement package and all you need to do is show up and give tthe impression you you work here on big days.

    Now everything is opposite. EIther way it is just a story. the idea is to get an idea of what happens next .

    More drama untill the flood gates of infinity printing can be opened without too much outcry done through distractions. If it dont work, buy buy north korea. The wars may be our fault?



    If any one knows what I am talking about,
    I would be interested to know what this all means for gold.
    It may actually mean that buying gold is a deterent on the economy.
    China may of needed its growth slowed so they may have bought gold.?
     
  96. When you launder the money typically moves on to a safer jurisdiction. You have to bet that is what the Russians did here. What they are losing is the proverbial tip of the iceberg. The Cypriots have lost a country. Do you think the Russians may have bribed an official or two?

     
  97. 90 % of my clients are from Russia and all and I mean all of them
    have money in Cyprus.
    40% haircut seems low -now it is much higher amount.
    Crazy World !
     
  98. Apparently that is one of the reasons Russia did not bail out Cyprus i.e. they want those funds repatriated...
     
  99. I guess Countries shy away from bailing out "states" or those that have no control of their monitory policy, there may be too much risk?

    If so, A bail out from an outside country typically would be done through the EU as a whole.
     
  100. Lets assume that money printed is held by people. It can be paid back but the interest is missing. how can you fix the problem ?

    You take the money that people have been hoarding, or steel it. and bring it back to the economy, this creates demand and sales and jobs.

    now you do not have to print ! well maybe you need to print enough to cover the interest.

    The problem started when people heard the word trillions. That was ENOUGH ! they said. we cant take it now ! we did not keep track of the printing but since we do not know what comes after trillions we will panic and stop this!

    Great, stop away, what options are left? let people hoard money and have no money in the economy ?

    Take their money ? make it so that people or politicians cant control or put a cap on printing ?

    The system was based on exponential growth of the money supply to allow for interest payments.

    Stop it before it tops ? !
    fortunately it is not gold or a stock and is limitless. people cant grasp that.

    so they stop the exponential growth to avoid a possible problem that may not even exist or a solution can be found.

    The remedy for the stop in the growth must be exponential to make up for the stop.

    out goes your saving, out goes control of money supply out goes low unemployment out case non austerity. it is all gone. take away freedom as a good measure.

    and then people retaliate. we want you to print ! print!

    oh sorry we gave away everything, you made us sell it so that we don't have to print remember?

    There is no problem yet, why bring it upon our selves? cause doing so now is better then later ?

    Later is always better as we can fix, now is always bad cause we are stuck with a difference of opinion and politics.

    where is the inflation ? if it scares you just but gold. why stop printing ? either way if you are loaned some paper money, it is likely you need to give it back. its not like you produced anything and traded it like the farmer.

    Farmers like to make money too.

    Any one have a link to a youtube about the end effects on price to consumables in cyprus ? Id laugh so hard if inflation was in the picture.
    what a slap in the face that would be !