Home > General Topics > Trading > Anyone actually make living from trading?

Anyone actually make living from trading?

  1. Like 95% of posts here are depressing posts about losing money, failing and stuff

    but are there actually people making decent living being FULL-TIME traders? share your stories and bring some positivity to the forum)
  2. Very few and most of the 1s that say they are I wouldnt trust anyway :(

    I'm close ask again in 6 months hopefully less.
  3. Yes
  4. You have to change your mindset if you want Success in trading and in life in general; Alot of people are dim-witted sheep and stubborn, close-minded robot heads. o_O:confused:

    (I know I sound cliche and like a motivational speaker...but it's true.)

    95% of people in life are basically losers/average. -- You should study and analyze and hang around the 5% of relatively successful people who have their shit together. You could learn a thing or two. ...instead of hanging out below with the sewer crowd.

    Don't expect anyone with a so-called Holy Grail or skill in trading to literally write it down in some cookbook.
    The only free information out there is ...free information. That's why it's free...you get what you pay for, or what it's worth.
    (this is not to say or imply paid stuff is quality -- those are all shit still)

    Traders trade. authors write. singers sing. etc etc. ...multiple talents rarely span across different fields.

    trading is like Indiana Jones...it's fraught with peril...along your journey or quest
  5. Yes but ET is well populated with the "I couldn't do it so it can't be done" and the investment adviser crowd.
  6. I put $50 into a binary options account and lost it, which proves it can't be done, so there.

  7. The below is part of an update I am working on. And no, it is not another book. No more books for me. Just closure before I semi-retire and start spending some of my accumulated profits. We don't live forever. Many thought I was just a product of the 90s where anyone could make money trading. But have made far more since then due to the compound effect. Of course to some I am not a trader since I am not a daytrader. I was a successful part time daytrader and then used those profits to make the real money trading stock mutual funds and now bond funds. Sounds boring I know but each daily penny gain in NAV in my bond funds equates to $2000 in daily profits. And I am hardly buy and hold as i make hundreds of trades annually. More on my actual results and some brokerage statements at a later date. As for trading I like to say "Trading is a uniquely individualistic process where we all have different time frames, goals, risk tolerances, trading vehicles, but most especially - and this is what really separates the winners from the losers - different levels of commitment."

    The Poster Boy For Failure

    I wasn’t into writing books in my younger years. That’s too bad, because as I was about to turn 38 years of age in the spring of 1985, I could have written a national best seller on the art of becoming a failure. For most of my adult life, I was universally acknowledged to be the poster boy on the subject of failure in almost every aspect of life. It was one failed job and one failed relationship after another. But it was in the financial arena where most everyone felt I really excelled at being a bust. You see, I was always dead broke. All my friends, even my parents, had long written me off as someone who was destined to live the rest of their life as a hapless and penniless loser.

    Even though everyone had pretty much deemed me a failure, I never hung my head low nor did I ever struggle with self esteem issues. While others may have considered me a loser, I never did. I also took solace in the fact that at least I wasn’t a deadbeat. You see, I had a dream, and deadbeats don’t have dreams. My dream , which I had been relentlessly pursuing since I was a 19 years old was to become a millionaire trader in the stock market. Still, at almost 38 years of age, the only place my millionaire trading dream had taken me was to the poor house.

    I’ve had a passion for the stock market since I was 13 years of age. That passion came about from reading Nicolas Darvas’ How I Made Two Millions Dollars In The Stock market. But it wasn’t until I was a college sophomore that I made my first trade - five shares of stock in Chrysler Corp. I then spent the next nineteen years consumed by the markets. For much of those years, I worked a series of minimum wage jobs to support myself while trying to get my trading off the ground. I was a security guard at a nursing home, delivered circulars door to door and even collected old newspapers and aluminum cans for recycling money. But it had been nineteen years of basically just spinning my wheels with a meager trading account of only a couple thousand dollars. You name it - stocks, options, futures - I traded them, but to no avail.

    My trading mindset was quick and easy money . But I didn’t limit my get rich quick mentality solely to trading. I spent untold hours at the local racing tracks in my home state of Kentucky. I even made several trips out west to the Nevada casinos. The lowest I sunk was when I got involved first as a participant and then as a promoter, in some questionable work at home schemes. It should come as no surprise then that I lived a life forever in financial distress. Because of perpetual credit card debt, my net worth was always negative. I resided in run down boarding houses or worse. Such as a bug infested basement apartment with little to no heat in the winters. I drove beat-up rusted out cars, could never afford health insurance, and lost count of the times I had to pawn my TV to make it through to the next pay day.

    My financial struggles hit their lowest depths ever during the spring of 1985. I went through a horrendous two months in my trading where I lost on 22 of 23 trades, the most disastrous losing streak of my career. Then to make matters even worse, I was told my job as an insurance investigator was soon to be terminated due to corporate restructuring. This was one of the few jobs I had over the years that paid above minimum wage. It was also the only one which I had managed to hold onto for more than just a few months. It had been an anchor in my life. It put food on the table and more importantly had enabled me to keep my trading account funded and afloat during the bad times.

    For the first time in my adult life the thought occurred to me that maybe I should quit trading altogether and move on with my life. I had a college degree. So why not put it to work and find a new career dream and one with retirement and health benefits? Quitting would have been par for the course for me. Throughout my life whenever the going got rough, be it academics, sports, or relationships, I would simply throw in the towel and quit.

    This time though I didn’t quit. I refused to let a lifetime of failure derail my dream of becoming a millionaire trader. Maybe no one else believed in my trading dream, but I did. One maxim for success in any field is that you believe you can do something and then you persevere until you do it. So I dug in my heels that much harder. At the same time I did something I had never done before and that was to embrace change.

    One of the biggest changes I made was to replace my trading dreams with actual concrete goals on how to achieve those dreams. During my entire trading career I had pretty much operated as a seat of the pants trader with no goals or plans on how to achieve my dreams. I also ditched my get rich quick trading mentality. In its place I instituted an incremental approach to wealth creation. I quit trying to hit home runs looking for the big payday. Instead, I would consistently try to hit singles and doubles and compound those smaller profits over time into a much larger trading account.

    Most importantly, after 19 years I finally decided to make a commitment to trading. Isn’t that something? Here I had spent almost 20 years trying to get rich yet never had fully committed myself. The first thing I committed to was making sure I was up every morning for the 6:30AM PST opening of the New York Stock Exchange. Previously, because of laziness and lack of motivation I would always roll out of bed at 9:00 in the morning or later. Also, as part of my newfound commitment, I spent over 100 hours poring over the past several years of my trading statements. I analyzed each and every trade to see exactly what it was that was preventing from becoming a successful trader.

    The changes I embraced that spring of 1985 led to a complete revamping of my trading habits, behaviors, and beliefs. The problem was I only had around $2300 left in my brokerage account. A few more bad trades and I was under $2000. That forced me to borrow $1000 to get my account back over $2000. Fortunately, the first trade I made after overhauling my trading was one of my best in years as I made $1,473.72 in cocoa. That singular trade, small as it may have been in hindsight, gave me something I had been sorely lacking and that was confidence. From then on out it was up, up, and away. I became consistently profitable in my trading endeavors and began my steady march to my ultimate goal of becoming not just a millionaire trader, but a multi millionaire trader.

  8. of course you failed, you needed at least 100$ in your account and a 5500$ mentorship from forum expert
  9. Those 95% are usually

    a) clueless
    b) heavily under-capitalized
    c) or (even worse) both of the above
  10. For those that don't know, oo7arb is Gary Smith who wrote How I trade for a Living. A good book IMHO and Gary seems like an honest and humble guy.

  11. Thats why most fail and are angry, they are told they need enough money to make it work so they throw in there entire life savings, lose a bit, want it back gamble harder and harder to its all gone, then they havent got enough to ever try again.

  12. Thanks for the compliment. But PLEASE don't pay retail for this old book written in 1999. Buy a used copy. That way neither I nor the publisher is enriched. Not that it has been very enriching seeing my *total* royalties the past five years has been under $500.
  13. :D
  14. Are you Junkster?


  15. yes they are but most are not here on ET, why would they? to chat with YOU or ME??? hahahahah,,,,, i know two people trading for living, one still trades via the phone in terms of how he puts his orders. he is just used to it. both older, been at it 30 years plus before i was born
  16. The following below is a quote by you and it perfectly describes why you are writing books and do not trade profitably. You described how you committed almost every cardinal sin there is in trading in one paragraph. And after you did everything wrong a trader can do wrong, you of course became profitable "up up and away".lol.what a disillusioned crowd here.

    " The problem was I only had around $2300 left in my brokerage account. A few more bad trades and I was under $2000. That forced me to borrow $1000 to get my account back over $2000. Fortunately, the first trade I made after overhauling my trading was one of my best in years as I made $1,473.72 in cocoa. That singular trade, small as it may have been in hindsight, gave me something I had been sorely lacking and that was confidence. From then on out it was up, up, and away. I became consistently profitable in my trading endeavors and began my steady march to my ultimate goal of becoming not just a millionaire trader, but a multi millionaire trader."

  17. But still a guy who writes books and does not trade.good luck following the trading advice of a humble and honest book writer.

  18. Holy crap . I wonder whats next on the used car dealer wash list.

  19. trade5656,

    You may think the post here is depressing, but I love ET forum. Why I love it? Because I am gaining knowledge how to make income to feed my family from experienced traders who is serious about this business.

    It does not matter what some other trader is doing to make money, what matters is what are you doing about your trading business and how will you make money. This is a losing money business as with any other business in the world.

    Talking about losing money is a very very positive discussion. Because if you lose more money then you make and you don't know why, eventually you will lose it all.

    I am a non profitable trader, this does not mean I can not logically give advice to you on how to make money trading.

    There are 1000 million ways to make money trader and about 10 million other ways to stay consistent making money trader.

    Which one will you pick and which consistent path will you take is the only question. Enjoy these forums because its the knowledge and logical and non basis opinions is priceless.

  20. yes they are about losing money cuz the poeple here at least the majority is here to learn and improve, if i made a million trading u think i would be here posting for u??? come on man, be logical, the ones making money are 1 working their butt off so when they are done 2 they are out enjoying it or doing other stuff 3 the successful ones might not be here at all to begin with, i know 2 that arent

    do u expect all the people in a doctors office not to be sick? of course not, cuz the reason they are there is cuz they are sick other wise they wouldnt be at the doctors to begin with
  21. Some on this forum are very quiet but are doing very well, I know several who are and they done very few posts, there are dozens who tried to post as they seem to be doing well, from all the harassment they left-, there is many on this site who are born losers and hide out so their working wives think they are trading.

    Trading is incredible tough, way too many think of making several hundred a trade and have marginal losing trades, if I could do that, I wouldn't be scalping and averaging $10-$20 a trade. You have to be persistent, you have to be giving up something in your life to want to play this same game, you have to be smart enough to have an open mind, you have to have that drive that no matter what-you won't quit. There is hundreds of "whys" people don't succeed, but if you were not born with winning attitude in life, you will fail in life.

    There are more programming one is trading against than any other time since day trading started for home trader, besides that you are trading against some of the smartest people on Earth who been doing so for many years. Fees are low and yet at end of the year if you start with small account, most likely you lost account from all the fees. Thinking about wealthiest people, they didn't day trade, don't see Buffet day trading.
  22. Are yu a cynical old cookie crumb?

  23. u said it best handle
  24. No, I would not expect you to be here to help others even if you were career profitable. But not everyone is a leeches and freeloader such as you describe yourself. There are people who do not mind sharing even when they are highly successful and even if it requires an investment in time.

  25. I meant it in all seriousness.


  26. yes those are very few and they wont come up like the post is began and say hey, look at me iam the 5% or 1% thats making it, i know few here that i met from this site as well that are ultra successful but it was getting to know them that told me so not that they came and said iam making it, iam living proof of it, lastly their posts are more selective
  27. Perhaps you let your feelings and sense of good and bad clout your judgment? We all want to believe in the existence of instant karma. The loud and nasty guys should be losers, the quiet ones who are always nice to others must have success in life. I think reality contradicts your belief system. I am loud, nasty, and arrogant. But I stand up for the truth. And I am fairly certain I am more profitable than you are in my trading job. I hope I did not shatter your world view now. And guess what, not everyone who is arrogant is a liar.

  28. Yes.... but I feel duty bound to say that:

    a) my "stake" didn't come from trading, at least not in the way you probably imagine, but from working for a systematic hedge fund.

    b) I derive a proportion of my income from dividends in a long only investment portfolio rather than entirely from trading. I could easily live off my (long run expected) trading income but that would make life to risky for me since I am by no means guaranteed to make money every year, so I would need to keep at least 5 years expenditure in cash.

    It's relatively easy to live off a large stake if you have another source of income and can live off an average trading return of 10% - 20%, with enough spare income or surplus cash to cover periods when you aren't making money. Perhaps it's true that 95% of retail traders lose money, but if you can avoid a few stupid mistakes then those kinds of long average returns are attainable for most people.

    I think it's much tougher to "roll up" a modest stake into a stake large enough to be able to comfortably live off the proceeds, without taking excessive risks (i.e. again targeting perhaps a 10 - 20% average return). I think it's damn near impossible to do this if you are trading full time as your only source of income and have to withdraw money each month for living costs.

    Trust me: I've done the necessary calculations to prove to myself how difficult this is unless your trading performance is exceptional (the sort of returns that high frequency firms make - and they need to make large multi million dollar upfront investments). Even with a very high expected return a few bad months will eat through your capital and wipe you out.

    Most of the posters who claim to have done this seem to have blown up a few times and had to replenish their stake. This is difficult as you never know whether you have been unlucky or have a bad system (and again this is pure mathematical fact - unless your returns are exceptional most people will need at least 10 years to get a statistically significant track record, and often much longer).

  29. agree tho, not everyone who is arrogant is a liar

    zzzz1 i have seen great posts and intellect comes out from u but i got to say most of the time the other ones come out combative, assumptive, and conclusive as a whole when most of the time people are speaking in generality,

    having been in jobs that all were dealing with the public i can tell u yes generally speaking the loud and talkers are USUALLY the losers, and the quite and reserved are usually the ones with money, same is with trading, loud and quite is not simply vocal, but also by many other forms such as outfit, how many rich people are dressed up in fancy clothes like gucci and big brand names, its usually the loud person trying to show something he doesnt have while the ones that have it dont care to show it, just look at steve jobs and zuckerburg they always wear the same shirt...

    lastly iam not sure how u become certain ur better than another person without detailed info,

    good luck man
  30. Jobs and Zuckerberg harbour a rather standard nerd look, dress preference depends on the scene again, go to good districts in London, Paris, Geneva and most posh holiday resorts in those area( at east Switzerland and France, which i know better) and most folks don't dress cheap ( and it is not easy to know much about people not in your scene, I have a friend running a rather large company , who possibly for a public image issue, always goes to work in a cheap suit, but when going out privately, he will often dress casually but with extremely expensive clothes )
    What's true is most luxury brands have at least 2 collections, with the cheaper lines showing big logos, and the posher line beeing much more discreete, at least logowise, while beeing more expensive, which I suspect makes it less obvious those are high end clothes to those not familiar.
  31. Second that. We often try to reduce observations to little things we can understand and rationalize away. I think you know better than anyone that you can see people in China, for example, walking around in all sorts of clothing. And if one must group clothing styles you probably can confirm that you will find any sort of people in any group, rich people dressed in some lousy clothes, poor people borrowing to the hilt to pretend to have. Rich people dressing in expensive clothing, poor people wearing shit. And anything in between. Life is more complex and often times it is difficult or at least wrong to reduce people to categories. We must summarize to talk statistics but otherwise such summaries or stereotypes tend to lead astray.


  32. It seems like we on the same oage, clothing was just an example of many ways to be vocal
  33. well...ok but you must not be a morning person. With a name like ZZZZ...LOL. Gary wasn't either but he finally did well in the markets. How about yu? Did you ever wake up and do well?
  34. Are you surf?!?!?!?
  35. It seems like people are only on these forums for few reasons:

    1. Learn something about how to trade or bounce ideas around
    2. Brag
    3. Run other people down
    4. Help other people who are struggling or learning
    5. Light entertainment

    I have no use for #2 and #3.
  36. #5 for me although when I come across pompess jerks #3 and sometimes light #2
  37. Once you figure it out trading becomes relatively boring so between one trade and the other we kill time on ET.

    I could explain in details how I trade and it would be of very little use to you as that would be my way to trade and more likely than not it was not work for you.

    You need to find your own way, a way that suits you, no shortcut is allowed...
  38. Let's test your theory, I disagree. If you have a statistically repeatable edge I bet I can also use it to make money.
  39. I make a living by trading. Believe it or not, but Al Brooks was very helpful to me.
  40. Yes I make a living off of trading and Ibdid start with a small account. I did make some mistakes along the way. Now I work 4 hours a day live in a nice house and drive nice cars. Anyone who wants to trade for a living can succeed.
  41. where can I sign up for your paid course?

  42. Before you do, make sure you see a picture of him standing on top of a yacht as proof of his trading success.
  43. I am a discretionary trader my edge is me, myself and I...
  44. The thing is, unless traders show you their stats, profits, etc, how do you know if they're successful or not? Unfortunate but true.
  45. There's no such thing as a born loser. They are people who haven't reached their potential yet.
  46. LOL, I am helping a guy who has lost for 30 years, he even once leased out a seat at CBOE so he thought trading in the exchange would help him get profitable, he knows more about ever indicator than I do, he has dropped over one million bucks trying to learn to trade. At what point do you think you want to change your way of thinking? I have him going for hypnosis to try to bypass his problems of not pulling the trigger in first seven trades that go by. It not like he is not smart, but as you loss for very long time, it is not the systems, it is a mental breakdown of loss of confidence in oneself dealing with trading. I have him going to a flea market on Sunday tomorrow to practice making deals, buying small items and start at 25% discount and never ever buy sticker price. He needs to get into a habit that he can control his buying/selling, but told him he has to make 50 different attempts, write down results and email that to me. Trading is about doing the same thing over and over. Maybe this might help him that any trade has same chance as one just done or next one to happen.

    But I know trading has cost him two wives and families, what is their potential? There is no defeat in stopping what you are not good at when other people's lives at stake, many men don't take this into consideration.
  47. This...Nature vs Nurture...debate made me think of the movie Trading Places, 1983
    Winthorpe in the end is kind of doing what I'm doing...timing the day's major Up and Down points, or resistance levels.
    Placing just one or two big bets.

    "...it's not luck, Todd."
  48. 30 years??? He needs to give it up and move on.
  49. Losing one million dollars is no laughing matter.
  50. I don't see how chasing around flea market deals is gonna help this guy. Sounds like another wasted time/effort/money
  51. Trading is trading, whether product for money or day trading or long term trading. I already have him doing longer term and even after skipping some, he nailed down few winners, not huge, but for a guy who can pick out all the losing trades, four winning anything in a row is huge. He is uncanny finding the crappy trades in anything, but due to rules he has in place for not taking trades, it is much tougher for him to lose, since Trump won the election, we in another wave up. Buddy has to learn he can make trades by doing same things over, no trades at flea market cause if done at market value would violate a rule, so he has to see if he can wait till he gets his price, it better if he spends entire day not buying anything cause no one would reduce price than him to buy up at cost. Some folks you have to change from office setting to outside for them to gain confidence in themselves.

    Tony Robbins has people walk across coals, how dangerous is this to gain confidence.
  52. ROFLMAO, funny movie, everything was going wrong for Winthorpe, couldn't even get gun to work when he wanted it.

    Here is another delightful movie.

  53. I'm reminded of that quote "he who speaks does not know, he who knows does not speak"...
  54. Tao Te Ching
  55. Don't care what someone tells me, if it looks dangerous, I am not doing it.
  56. Yuup
  57. 1. Since no one knows who you are, what is the point of #2?

    2. As for # 3, to run down some unknown person you have never met and will never meet, why bother?

    You sir, and many others here often did #4 to help us out and I for one appreciate that very much.

  58. You sir, clearly, never met any humans yet....

    Why post a fake Youtube video/message board post about paper wins/loses, when your identity is not revealed? Yet people do that...
  59. This thread without geographical location is meaningless...

    I am a mid-20s bachelor living with my parents in Vietnam. I don't have a job, but I am making $700 per month with TST, and that is 4 times better than the average Vietnamese salary. I only trade 4 hours after the US markets open. As you can imagine, I am king with the bitches and instead of a moped, I have a Nissan Versa. I am happy with my life and I have lots of friends because I usually pay in the pubs.*

    *the story is not entirely true, but it could be and very uplifting (as per request)
  60. Good point. Why?

    Youtube video going viral can make him some money? That I can understand but why on ET? There is no apparent payoff.


  61. Very few

    The big winners mostly are too busy to post in forums

    The few that grace the forums are not giving out their proprietary methods thar are working "Now"

    Sometimes you get details of what used to work, like SOES Banditry
  62. There is something that works on any market that works now will work in the future and surely enough would have worked in the past. No edge just simple observation
  63. I believe certain strategies, given a high enough sample rate, will perform positively past and present DURING similar market condition. If the market is in a 10 price increment range for an extended period of time that breakout strategy just won't work while a mean reverting strategy would likely work very well.
  64. My point was that people like to do stupid shit without obvious rewards. Sometimes just for the heck of it or because they have a need to express themselves... The reward isn't always monetary...
  65. Amen...got that T shirt.
  66. It's a percentage game and not a lottery. If you can live on 20% return, you're ahead of the game. This is where size matters, it all depends on the size of your account. If you have 30k account and think you can earn a living trading, good luck. It won't happen. Now if you have a 300k account, and trade on the sell side using puts, assignment, and calls, you have a very good chance of making 20-30%. That's an average salary according to gov stats rolling out of bed and trading for a few hours per day. Limited risk if you know how to trade this game.
  67. A lot of people forget that not everybody live in the US. There are places where average salary is 5k$ a year and you can make decent living from 50k account.
  68. A good trader won't do that because risk reward just does not justify.:D

    I enjoyed reading your posts. Best wishes.
  69. I know I've done it, more times than I'd like to remember.
  70. $50K? I'll open my own investment bank!

  71. I make what I think is decent living of day prop trading. I don't think I could make it without positive commissions and the capital. I know many people that actually do live quite nicely, as I have been around for years. I have also tried to teach a looooooooooooot of people, and there is like 5-10% success rate. Most people that I taught don't lose, but they don't win enough either, and have no time to gain the necessary experience. The fact is that there are traders out there making money ON A CONSISTENT BASIS.
  72. The fact is there are Uber drivers out there who make consistent incomes from driving. That is not to say they are making a LIVING,
  73. Everybody around here is above average and makes a great living!!
  74. I personally post my daily results on a facebook page. When I teach courses, I trade live in front of the students. It is not bragging, I don't make millions, just a very decent living.
  75. Survivor bias.
  76. More like gamblers fallacy.
  77. Hello,

    My mom often tell me when I talk about trading to her:

    When I told her about trading course or mentor?
    1.Her response: Why would anyone help you trade to make money and give away what is making them money to feed their family, etc?

    When I told her about a trading system I wanted to buy online that makes money?
    1. Her response: If someone knew how to make money that required you losing money for them to make money, Why on earth would they tell you for? Noone shares their secrets of making money.

    I can't say nothing when she says that. I believe she is right. I have to take my time learn.

    I believe if most new traders realize this business will take passion and hardwork from the start, the journey will be easier. Its your business. I have not met one business beside the illegal drug business that makes money overnight. My business will take awhile to be profitable. I am cool with that.
  78. She is 100% right.

  79. I always want to ask this question rigrously so do NOT take it the wrong way, why teach when u can just trade?
  80. Sounds good!

    Maybe we should have a thread about trading while on breaks driving Uber.
  81. systematictrader,
    I think the same. Maybe for extra income why they trade their own systems?
  82. A better question might be, why trade when you can teach? Seems less risky to me.
  83. Because a trader with a worthwhile edge can potentially become very wealthy. And he normally does what he likes.

    Unfortunately these traders rarely post on forums, and if they do they are not giving away the keys to the kingdom.

    However, since few people- and almost none here- are big winning traders, teaching; well, you know...
  84. Some people like to teach and some people like to trade. A teacher can market, dance and fake, a trader has nowhere to hide, no one to fool...except the self. Someone who trades for a living should not care how much someone else makes or doesn't make.
  85. But also less profitable.

    A good trader watches for the best risk reward ratio. So it is not a matter of taking the less risky option. The less risky looking option can be more risky then the more risky looking one. All depends of the reward of taking risk. If he is a good trader the additional risk of trading will be exponentially compensated by additional profits.

  86. I dont know what extra income can compensate for trading when your good at it to the point you teach others
  87. No, I am not taking anything the wrong way. On the contrary...
    I have taught basically to make extra money out of it. The way I trade (or daytrade) pays a nice salary. Why not make more? I have seen with my own eyes guys daytrading making thousands of dollars in one day, almost every day. I cannot do that. I make a few hundred a day on average. Nice salary, but DEFINITELY not millions. I also had a prop office (until I got ripped off by the WTS bastards, I wrote about it in a separate thread), and all the traders I taught were giving me money on a monthly basis. If I taught them well, they would stay for a long time. It was a win-win situation.
  88. Sure do
  89. On a contrary, I am a loser and I am struggling!!

    I think too many people concentrate on "win or lose" here. In finance, you don't have to be the winner, this not a fucking "Apprentice". You just need to get to some reasonable metrics on your own utility curve. For example, take a guy doing something or other quantitative in his retirement account. Even though he just slightly improves his returns over holding SPY, he might be able to retire a few years earlier. In my mind, he's a winner.
  90. Haha! The obvious answer is the correct one. Even some of the most respected and popular vendors are bending the truth to cater to their subscribers and keep them engaged...

    I used to think that I would be interested in teaching people how to figure the market out once I was really doing well. The truth is, my ego was searching for confirmation that I knew what I was doing. When my system was proven, once I had statistical data to back up my approach, and especially when I was trading my plan with confidence, my goal quickly became to get away from the computer as quickly as possible to be with my family and friends.

    I have taught one person my strategy, and that was because he offered to help me code what I do to help automate it if possible. We've ended up becoming partners in way, and it's made trading a lot more fun. Aside from that, I'm more interested in taking my dog for walk instead of editing together webinars and posting charts.
  91. And that is the true meaning of life....
  92. The point of #2 is to convince oneself. #3 is probably a variation on that theme by people who believe they are elevated when bashing others.

    Appreciate the kind words, but don't call me sir because I'm a woman!
  93. I disagree. There are people who will help you. There is no reason not to help people. The vast majority of them won't do what you suggest anyway, so it's not as if they are going to get in front of you. Many people have helped me in my life, with many things, and often not for monetary gain.
  94. Sorry, my apology.

    Best wishes.
  95. You made some very good points but I don't agree with some of your conclusions. Let me explain.

    Yes, no one will give you a recipe on how to make money. But most posters here are friendly and will help if you have a specific problem/issue. There will always be a few #2 and #3 but why get upset since you will benefit so much more from advice by so many others?

    Another point, I often asked questions on the basics (and subtleties) of the instruments I traded and benefitted greatly. This site has some very experience and successful traders.

    Best wishes.
  96. Thanks ironchef,

    I was not talking about ET members, i love ET members. This is the best site on earth. i was talking about the vendors and previous systems I get burnt from and lose the money.

  97. In that case you mom was correct.

    However, just like ET, you buy and read books not to get their "profit recipe" but to understand the basic working elements of trading, especially trading options.

    As for trading systems and vendors, all my friends' experiences were the same as yours. Personally I have not directly seen or heard any success story yet.

    Best to you.
  98. Thanks ironchef,

    My quest for the holy grail of trading is over. I am the holy grail and whatever data I have. I read the books for directions and methods of doing things and knowledge. It's no different then college books reading. I have to take all the trading books and see what I can do. And track what I do.

    Yes, no sucess story yet for me either. The only sucess story I had is when I stop using them.
  99. Let me give you my opinion:

    Only a few among us are able to get day trading signals out of a very noisy data set. Most of us (me included) will never acquire those skills. However, that does not mean there is no hope for us.

    Not too long ago I was struggling with my options trading and a wise lady on ET suggested I traded longer time frame options. That advice was priceless and made a world of difference for me.

    Why don't you do the following back test: Buy and sell SPY at the beginning of the day and at the end of the day; buy and sell SPY at the beginning of the week and at the end of the week; buy and sell SPY at the begging of the month and the end; buy and sell SPY at the beginning of the year and at the end.... Total up the profit for 1 year, 2 year... After factored in commissions & bid/ask spread, you will realize that after a few years, your day trading helped paid your broker's yacht but you are not much richer because by not able to pull trading signals out, your trades are not that different from randomly buying and selling.

    If you have problem with day trading, try swing trade and you may find it a little easier. Afterwards, you can always go back to day trading if you are one of the chosen few. And, there are just too many smart people trading so you have to take the roads less travelled.

    Good luck and best wishes.
  100. Most people trade too small timeframes. I daytrade based on a 60 min chart. That's the basis of my system. And it works well. Ticks or even 1 to 15 minute charts are not good as basis. The secret is that the moves are bigger on 60 min then on 5 min, and even in an uptrend you risk to get short signals on 5 min, signals that are fake. There must be enough potential between the high and the low of the moves you see. Went long ES short after the opening and got out about 30 min ago on a take profit. I have my stop at 3 points and my average profit per trade was 85% higher then my stop in january. If you trade small timeframes you can never achieve this average profit per trade, so you need much more winning trades to survive. And closer stops then 3 points risk to be to close to the market.
  101. Good comment MtTrader,

    Do you use Breakevens with your 3pt stop?

    If so, when do you move your stop to breakeven?

  102. May I ask you a question:

    When you used 60 min charts, did you used 60 min moving average or just consecutive 60 min?

  103. I follow mathematical models. When I have a signal I act, no matter where we are. So I don't use breakevens.
    I have no stats about my losing trades, but my average loss per losing trades is much lower then 3 points (soemwhere between 1-2 points probably). I estimate that 90% of my losing trades never get to the -3 points stop.
    My stats show that I have to let the system run. It will automatically adapt to the strenght of the market and give me the best profits I can make in the long term. Putting taking profits or break evens damage my returns. I found no way to improve my return by interfering the system.
    It's all about math.
  104. I use the barcharts. So no 60 minute running data. Each bar delivers the data for that 60 minutes.
  105. Thanks.
  106. I did a back test of SPY from Feb 2007 to Feb 2017 on the above. First column is buy and sell once a day 100 shares of SPY, second column is buy and sell once a month, third column is once a year and the forth column is buy and hold. I assumed a round trip commission of $14 (Typical commission) First row is total profit over 10 years for 100 shares of SPY. Second row is commission costs. Third row is total profit of the different trade strategy. First of all, if you trade without commission, day trading was profitable, probably because of the upward bias of SPY. However once commission was subtracted, random day trading was unprofitable. Notice that swing traders had an easier time.


    Of course no one day trade randomly but for most inexperience day traders (I was one) random trading may not be too far off reality. And, 100 shares of SPY is ~$20,000 unless you go on margins. In my opinion the hurdles are substantial and my hat's off to the professional day traders on ET that can consistently make money month after month, year after year.

    Best to all.
  107. Inside information?
  108. well, that would be cheating and would be illegal, would it not?

    something else, legal.
  109. Trading single candlesticks has never worked once spreads, commissions are taken into account over the long run. Brokers love candlestick traders.
  110. $14 commission costs roundtrip for 100 shares of spy?

    i think interactive brokers would charge $2.
  111. I think those traing 300 000 shares a month pay .02. Smaller volume would pay .05.

    So IB would be 4 or 10 dollars round trip, depending.

    Best to double check.

    IB is a top pick of many pros as thet have cheap commissions and many other perks.

    However, yes, 14 dollars per thousand shares is for suckers.
  112. No, it's $2 round trip or lower if doing volume.
  113. Half a cent per share, minimum $1. So buying 100 shares is gonna be 50 cents, but it will be $1 due to the minimum. If you now sell these shares, it's another $1. Therefore roundtrip is $2.
  114. Was going by 1000 shares and still think I am correct.

    .05 a share or 5 dollars one way on 1000 shares with normal monthly volume (but a 1 dollar minimum for those only trading 100 shares at a time, or less).

    .02 a share or 2 dollars one way on 1000 shares if doing 300,000 shares a month.

    They have insanely low rates for whales, like if you do 100,000,000 a month- but well...

    I will look it up to be sure.

    Normally traders talk about how much per share they pay, or what their fixed ticket cost is.
  115. $14 round trip whether 1 share, 10 shares, 100 shares, 1,000 shares or 10,000 shares.... I have not traded more than 20,000 shares, so don't what they charge beyond that #. Also, if you are a frequent trader, they have special low rate for you.
  116. To make a living, you mean replace salary. It requires capital, imho 250k minimal. Trade conservatively to preserve capital to return 25% +-, using option premium, cap gains and dividends.

  117. Depends on too many factors, like how much you earn and how good you are, you can do 25% week on a small 5k account trading futures.

    I've got 3k currently, plan to run it upto 10k+ by end March (tax year), 20% per month ie 2k is enough for me to live off, initially atleast.

    I've ran from less than 3k to 10k in less time.
  118. :) Only on an internet forum would assuming a consistent return of 25% plus a year be described as "conservative"...

  119. I've posted on this subject before but here are some more realistic numbers:

    Assume you can make a Sharpe Ratio of 0.5. Maybe you'll do better - bravo. Maybe you'll do worse (most retail traders lose money, so 0.5 would be much better than average).

    That implies a full Kelly risk of 50%, and half kelly of 25%. I'd use half Kelly maximum. That equates to an expected return of 12.5% a year with 95% of your annual returns falling in a range of -38% to 63%. Your probability of losing money in a given year is around 30%. Your probability of making less than 12.5% in a given year is 50% (assuming symmetric returns).

    You clearly can't expect to make money every year so you need to either have (a) several years of living costs saved up to cover the times when you will don't make enough money or (b) passive income from dividends / bond coupons or (c) a combination of both (or (d) another job or income from a spouse but we're talking about 'making a living from trading' so let's assume that's what you're doing).

    Let's focus on (a): Mathematically over 5 years you have roughly a 3% chance of not making 12.% in any of those years so I'd personally want to save 5 years of living costs in cash.

    Let's say that you want to replace $50K in income (I'm ignoring taxes). You're probably going to want to have 5 years of living costs, minimum, which is $250K. At 12.5% to generate $50K you need $400K. That's a total of $650K.

  120. You are talking 12.5percent real returns. Overtime you will need to grow your account for inflation and to "keep up with the jones's" who are receiving salary increases and job promotions.
  121. I don't base my return on a few months. The average is for 10+ years, annually.
  122. You're right however since Sharpe Ratio is an excess return over the risk free rate, if you assume risk free rate ~ inflation, you're close enough. But yes, to be safe add another 3% on for inflation.

  123. %%
    Your $50 option post;
    maybe much more accurate, but havent checked it out this quarter. I use a profitable 50 day moving average, but that is with cash stocks. i dont mean quarters like we gambled for in a poolhall LOL , but OCT-DEC. LOL :caution::cool:
  124. That's fine if your going to live for ever and don't mind dying having never spent a penny of it, I'm more of a short term constantly needing cash injections to have fun with and eat and pay bills, you know real world sucky life!
  125. I trade for a living. My personal goal is to make a profit every day, I don't care if I made it from dividends or if a stock has a nice little jump like GPRO today.
  126. Because option premium strategies are easy as is just collecting (large) dividends. It's not like the high dividend paying stocks are risky or anything.
    If it's how you say it is, why isn't each and every small hedge fund doing it? 25% will make you a star.
  127. %% Great name GoPro; i cant buy or sell with a 52 week chart like that, but like long lasting trends.....:cool::caution:. Good profit today
  128. tbh on small amounts like 250k, 25% a year (it's only $62.5k) should be more than feasible.
  129. shhhh don't tell everyone ...
  130. It's scalable ...
  131. you can't make a living and survive you have to kill it to make a living.
  132. Sign - another ET trope: small traders can make more money than large ones.

    In fact the world is not full of successful retail traders making consistent double digit returns every year.

  133. The 1st sentence is incorrect...small traders should be trying at least to make very significant percentage gains, strategies/tactics/instruments can be used by 'small' money that 'big' money has no interest in. An obvious example is bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies...small traders can particpate and make serious percentage gains, at least some big money is not interested (see Jamie Dimon warning against any of his traders playing with bitcoin)

    The 2nd statement is true...the world is not full, however there are those small number who do make significant percentage increases on small amounts of capital.
  134. Give me an example.

  135. Just edited my previous post to give an example
  136. Sorry, I really don't buy the argument that there are limited capacity strategies that only small traders can use. Any given high frequency strategy has limited capacity, but big HFT shops diversify across thousands of instruments, making it economic for them to use that strategy. Yes, small cap stocks have limited capacity, but decent sized small and micro cap funds exist that hold hundreds of stocks.

    The reason bitcoin isn't attractive to professional investors isn't because they're large investors; it's because they're not stupid. There are a significant number of reasons why trading bitcoin makes almost no sense whatsoever. It's also a poor example since BTC etc has only been around for a few years, but this nonsense that small investors can outperform larger ones has been around much longer. Give me another example.

    I'm not doubting that there are small number of retail traders who can achieve returns much better than the average institutional trader (and about as good as the best institutions, although not as good as HFT shops), but they are a tiny fraction of the trading population, and nearly all of the people who claim to be in this bracket are (a) lying or (b) have a relatively short track record which isn't statistically meaningful (and are probably trading something with latent blow up risk).

    The second part of your post illustrates exactly why small investors shouldn't be aiming to make large returns. In doing so they'll probably take on too much leverage or trade too often. Unless they are in the tiny percentage of elite traders (sorry for the pun) who can actually consistently achieve a SR of 1.0 or more they're going to be over betting (significantly higher than full Kelly) and end up blowing up.

    Even very good retail traders are unlikely to be making 25% a year; since they're probably running at a more conservative risk / return target (because they're not morons). The best guy on fundseeder.com with a track record that is actually meaningful has a Sharpe of just over 2.0 with nearly 5 years of trading on an average 250K account (and looking at their account she's regularly withdrawing her profits rather than leveraging up). But she's running at a mere 15% vol which means her annual returns are 67%, 27%, 15%, 16% and 35%.

  137. blah blah blah....it never ends
  138. My next door neighbour has bought up most of the surrounding farms. From rags to riches being an investment manager. His Fund pay out about 9% a year, which in big fund terms is a good return. Anything above the divi is pocketed.
  139. Double standards right there.
  140. There's many a large investor who is stupid. I mean seriously dumb. Conversely there are many small traders who are seriously smart. And no doubt vice versa. I guess the point is that the amount of money you control does not define intelligence levels.

    You say that trading bitcoin makes no sense. Why not? Please give your reasons. Does day trading e mini S&P500 contracts makes sense? For whom? I would say day trading bitcoin makes far more sense for small traders than ES. The volatility is huge compared to ES.

    Doesn't illustrate anything of the sort. A small trader should be aiming to double his/her equity in a year. Might not achieve that. But should definitely be trying to do so. Why bother otherwise?

    Your trader on fundseeder is probably looking at managing money and therefore buiding a track record. Most small individual traders aren't looking to do that, are not constrained by sharpe ratios etc.
  141. Can't give you another example since i trade some small trader non scalable strategies and instruments myself and would not want them in the public domain.
  142. I lived full time of stock trading with 6k usd ish, I was making 1-2k per month only needed 500gbp at the time, exchange was crap to bring back 2:1 area to gbp.

    18 ish years ago, these days i need 3xs that just to get by, i try to keep my life style fruggle to :(

    Sure there are places in the world where 1k usd per month would be living like a king, i need to move there :(
  143. Leaving aside whether anyone should be day trading anything the main factor as to whether someone will be profitable day trading is cost; to be precise cost normalised by volatility. Bid/ask in BTC is about twenty times higher than ES futures; vol is about four times higher, so BTC is about five times more expensive. Otherwise volatility doesn't matter except in position scaling and management. Large vol means you just have smaller positions and looser stops; and vice versa.

    At least until BTC can be traded as a cash settled future on a proper exchange the main issue is counterparty risk.

    A Sharpe ratio isn't a constraint, it's a way of measuring performance.

    Of course... everyone on ET is making a huge return that a big fund couldn't possibly manage, but there is no way of proving it since it's all down to some secret sauce that only they have discovered.

    Discussing this subject is of course pointless. I only keep trying to avoid some poor newbie trader getting suckered into thinking they should be making 25% a year, or 5% a month or whatever, and then when they don't increasing their leverage and / or trading faster in a desperate attempt to reach those benchmarks, resulting in their capital depleting faster till it's all gone.

  144. Disagree. The smaller the account the more aggressive a trader should be. I trade anything that moves and if bitcoin is moving, I'll trade it. The market for bitcoin is over 100 billion. Unless you have billions, why wouldn't you trade it? The reasons you have given are not good enough for anyone under a billion to trade.

    Bitcoin is pure speculation, there is no S/R, no real historical data to go on and macro news like interest rates does not affect it.

    If you are not up over 100% year to date on a small account under 1 million, you don't know what you are doing.

    No excuses
  145. There are things in the market that large traders could not take advantage of but a small nimble trader can.

    Warren Buffett said in a BusinessWeek Interview in 1999: “I think I could make you 50% a year on $1 million. No, I know I could. I guarantee that.

    Then he said in 2005: “Yes, I would still say the same thing today. In fact, we are still earning those types of returns on some of our smaller investments. The best decade was the 1950s; I was earning 50% plus returns with small amounts of capital. I could do the same thing today with smaller amounts.”
  146. Yes, i tend to agree re day trading. Day traders need large moves otherwise the costs will be prohibitive. Also excessive leverage may have to be deployed to make it worthwhile. And yes, bitcoin atm has large bid offer spreads.
  147. :banghead:

  148. All well and good, but I still ask what is the point of someone full time trading to make 25% on say $100k (if they even have that much to speculate with in the first place). I mean that is $25k. The newbie trader would be better off being employed somewhere.

    That's why I say a small trader must try to make 100% or more on whatever capital he has. That's not to say risk management should not be employed, of course it should.
  149. Someone with $100K shouldn't be full time trading, full stop. I thought I'd made that clear already.

    And, to reiterate: you can't consistently make 100% a year without taking insane risks unless you are an extraordinarily good trader (say in the top 0.0001% - since to expect to make profits in a 95% expectation range of say 100% to 200% a year your Sharpe ratio must be around 6.0, which would make you better than every single hedge fund in the world except for the top half a dozen HFT firms). The corollary of this is that there is a 99.999% chance that someone who tries to consistently make 100% a year will be taking insane risks.

  150. For most of us me included, 1,000% is required year 1 of profitable.

    Forex and 100:1 margin, put 25% a week into easily acheiveable, IF your good, for a small sub 10K account. Wouldn't trade that much risk with a 250K account mind, hell no, still want 50% min on that mind per year.
  151. Try cutting off the other ear.
  152. Are you out of your Gauguin-deluded mind?

    You should eat your severed ear, so you can hear yourself speak.
  153. I know a lad going back 20+ years trading stocks on ClearStation, started with 10K lost down to 3K pretty quick, stopped trading to research it, found a method got very good and switched on, million air inside of 2 to 3 years, it's very very very rare, but it can and does happen.

    Keep the dream alive, without that, working rest of my life and barely getting by, kill me already!!!
  154. May I ask where you obtained the statistics on returns by professionals and small mom and pop retail traders?
  155. Not everyone trades as poorly as you noob
  156. Again noob.
    If you cannot achieve those returns you are so far behind from those that do noob

    so many noobs on ET

    Repeat if you haven't returned at least 100% on a small account less than 1 million so far this year, you are a NOOB

    Raise your standards noobs
  157. It's well known that the average retail trader loses money. The performance of retail traders is strongly skewed, with a big fat bunch of losers and then a thin tail of winners.

    I assume that the people on the leaderboard at fundseeder.com represent a selection of the very best retail traders. Unfortunately they only have five year track records max.

    Average SR in the industry are much lower than people realise. Rentech are probably the most successful hedge fund in the world. Their Sharpe is about 2.5. It's incredibly rare to find a manager with a meaningful track record (say 20 years plus) with a Sharpe Ratio over 1.0, never mind 2.0.

    From public filings by listed HFT firms we know that they can achieve high single digit SR.

  158. %%
    Good points, about JPM warning of bitcon fraud + JPM chief compared it to tulip mania.That's in the past however, looks like the bitcon fraud is going to battle it out with bitcon shorts, shortly.
    NOT sure it is as good as tulip mania; with tulip mania @ least you had an good looking overpriced tulips when you got caught holding the bag.:D:caution:
    I do like the bitcon ads/pics even though bitcoins coins look real easy to counterfiet; but having never sen a real bit con coin, maybe wrong on the counterfiet ease?? LOL[Source MODERN TRADER magazine NOV 17 issue]
  159. Thank you for your thoughtful response.

    So, an annual CAGR of 20% with a standard deviation of 20% would give you a Sharpe of 1.0 over that period?

  160. Yes exactly

  161. A small retail trader with a decent edge can aim for 100% annual returns with a worst case 50% drawdown.

    I mean you can start off with a 50K account. You risk 25K of that with an initial drawdown.

    Once the account is over 100K any 50% drawdowns only come out of profits.

    There are no 'insane risks' as you call them with this approach.

    If you lose 25K from the intial account you save that from your day job and try again.

    This is a major part of a retail traders edge with smaller accounts: The ability to recharge a small account from your day job income if you take an initial hit. A hedge fund manager cant afford big drawdowns, especially in the early days. Investors won't recharge the account. A hedge fund starting with 50M cant drawdown to 25M.

    This was how i started trading and built my account x10 fold, so its not theoretical.

    This is all based on having a good edge and the discipline to follow your rules through drawdowns.
  162. Aiming for 100% annually is reasonable for a small account with large-ish drawdowns (20% and more), that's my goal anyway and I've succeeded a few times. Achieving that every year is close to impossible. The only people saying otherwise are the ones that traded the previous few years of the bull market and think they know it all -- arrogance and inexperience. They all would burn miserably in a 2001-2 bear cycle.
  163. If you have capital on the side to "recharge" your account, then you should include that in your denominator for returns.
  164. Thats not what i said in my post. I said you can earn that back from your day job if you have to. Its a worst case thing anyway. Even if you have a 50% drawdown you can still carry on at half size. Dont even have to recharge. Its only when you don't have enough to cover margin for your minimum bet size do you have to raise funds to start to again.
  165. You need a 100% return just to break even from a 50% drawdown and therein lies the problem. With a constant size you'd just be taking more and more risk as the account is depleted. A 50% drawdown is psychologically devastating, speaking from experience.
  166. Most people have a limit.

    For some people losing $50 bucks is a big deal. For some others $500 others 5000, 50K, 500K.. etc.

    Thing is you can take a small account up with high leverage and take the drawdowns, but at some point your 'meaningful money' value system kicks in.

    The idea is stop thinking about the money (results) and to become totally process orientated. Easier said than done of course.
  167. It's difficult not to think "what am I doing with my life" when sitting in a drawdown for a year or more. This shouldn't happen but I figure it happens more often than people would admit. I know on ET it happens to no-one ever ;)
    The key of course is to live significantly below your means, so over half of the profit built up is just a buffer for drawdowns - look at it as borrowed funds if that helps. Like you said though, easier said than done.
  168. As a retail trader, you should look at your returns and asset base in totality. You should obviously break out your returns by asset class or strategy. But it's disingenuous to yourself to say I returned 100percent when you are sitting on a ton of cash in a checking account as a hedge.
  169. I am horrified at the ideas of a 50% drawdown and being in a trade for months.
    I would recommend a 5 minute time frame and close ALL trades at closing each day.
    Then you will be able to sleep nights !!
  170. Just because you daytrade doesn't mean the drawdown seizes to exist at night.
  171. Your post actually make some sense to me. In a way it is like a version of Martingale.

    Another way to look at it is the way we save in an IRA/401K: You are all in and every month you add another fix amount into the mix. After 10-20-30 years, the outcome is typically better, ever after a couple of 2001-2, 2008-9.

    Other than your own account, have you done a simulation using historical returns to see if it works for other years?

    Best to you.
  172. Anyone actually make living from trading?

    Some of us older traders don't need to make much of a % gain due to our performance over the years and savings, just a bit every so often to top top off the tank from the living expenses - still aiming for big returns anyway. Currently I have a full time job working from home which I like, it really complements my trading in a big way - I think for most this is the sweet spot. Narrowing the % gains needed to live on takes a lot of heat off.

    Trading is no different than any other pursuit requiring a lot of determination, discipline, and time to hone in the skills. Only about 5% of people that say they want to get fit, shred on the guitar, surf big waves, dance the flamingo, flying an airplane, win a chess tournament, write a book, sail the 7 seas, climb Mt. Fuji, learn to speak a foreign language, start a business, etc. ever succeed - trading is no different.

    Those with unconditional persistence will do fine in the long run, it always takes a lot longer and costs a lot more in ironing out all the costly mistakes before hitting a stride. It took me getting beaten up badly a few times before things turned around and stayed that way.
  173. Well said.

    Trading is my only job since 2010 and by far the most fun. :D
  174. Your profile says your occupation is retired and you sure ask a lot of questions for a full on do or die trader with 7 years. I would think trading for a living implies its your only source of income and you have nobody like a spouse or rich parents supporting you.
  175. Getting called out by a gumby doll, that is harsh.
  176. You obviously come from CTA background - any equity or derivatives quant has stumbled onto strategies like that and moved on with a sigh :) There are plenty such strategies. Usually it would be something that's (a) is capacity constrained and either (b) is high touch enough that it can not be fully automated or (c) is illiquid enough for larger players to stay away. (b) could be anything that requires reading unstructured data and understanding it. An ready example would be doing merger arbitrage on smaller companies where you can only participate if you have read the docs. (c) anything where liquidity is just not there, from odd-lots in MBS tranches to back month futures.
    For example, there are people playing event pricing in biotech/pharama stocks which satisfies a, b and c :)

    PS. why aren't there people doing it and arbing it away? because it's work and it's not exciting. It also requires a certain amount of brains and education - combine it with being capacity constrained and you will find that most people capable of doing it are doing better by being employed as traders/PMs.

    PPS. There is also a common occurrence in cross-sectional strategies where equal weighted portfolio produces a Sharpe of 3 while liquidity-weighted one produces a Sharpe of 0.5. It's good to be small sometimes - rats tend to eat better than tigers :)
  177. Getting called out by a gumby doll, that is harsh.

    "A fisherman will always see another fisherman from afar"

  178. Could you explain this particular cultural reference?
  179. hehe, I don't remember Eddie Murphy getting so Yiddish back then. I miss Gumby damnit!
  180. I do have incomes like dividends, etc. but I don't have any other jobs producing income and spouse not working. I am embarrassed to say my biggest source is from trading and if that is not a correct definition of trading for a living, my apology.:(
  181. I ask a lot of questions because I want to get better and learn form professional traders like you. I know my success is more luck than skills and luck can run out any time.

    Why join a forum if you cannot ask questions to improve and learn to trade better?

  182. You also say "thank you" a lot. Very annoying :)

    PS. anything I don't know I always ask questions - you should never be ashamed of your ignorance and you never know, maybe that one particular answer will be the missing piece of the puzzle
  183. Why is saying thank you for helping me out annoyed you?
  184. I live in the New York City. We don't do "thank you" here :)

    PS. it's all good
  185. In my prior life with a day job, I actually worked for a company headquartered in New York. Yes, New Yorkers don't do "thank you", we Californians on the other hand are more civil.:)
  186. Care to explain?
  187. Uncouth NYers don't do P-L-E-A-S-E either unless they are desperate.
    And they expect respect and to be liked ?? Oh well !!
  188. Was it the rat pack that had origins in NY?
    Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Sammy Davis Jr., Peter Lawford and Joey Bishop.
  189. That was Hollywood I think.
    Now we have the bitch pack. They will pull down the strongest male like a pack of wolves.
  190. Thank god I live in the midwest. I'd get eaten alive in NYC. LOL!
  191. 87% of ET registered members make a living from trading.

    Not stock/futures silly.

    Trading their ID's for handouts down at the mens shelter

  192. Midwest born and raised and I wouldn't trade it for anything, besides the company I work for pays me to say thank you!
  193. Being there done that.
  194. Did that in San Francisco. Beautiful weather, great food and atrocious housing.

  195. Are you including those Sausalito houseboats of the kind that Alan Watts used to live on?
  196. Not on my pitiful student budget. I lived in the tenderloin.
  197. It takes a long time to learn, most give up.
    99.9% don’t stick with it long enough or aren’t smart enough.

    Yes, I do trade professionally.
    Yes, you can do it too.
    No, I will not teach you and I will not sell you a thing.

    Good luck.
  198. Not even a tiny hint?:(

    Happy new year to you.
  199. Investing is different than selling.

    If you’ve got an extra 100k laying around, and can qualify as accredited..... I’m here.

    Everyone here has already got more than one “hint,” you just have to read through my ego.
  200. IMHO there are many making a living from trading on ET. Hint, don't try to hit homers everytime. Hit singles and doubles until it comes down the pipe, you'll see the stitching on the ball. Then hit it with everything you learnt along the way and follow thru. Remember not to hurt yourself, there's always tomorrow.
  201. Great advice. Thank you.
  202. Can you kindly explain this.o_O

    1. Are you saying I should send you $100K and you will trade for me?

    2. Or are you saying I should send you $100K to pay you to teach me how to trade?

    Investing/trading is not a spectator sport.
  203. Things were relatively a lot cheaper in the "Beat" days but a houseboat in Marin County is a good way to go :cool:
  204. Stealth vendor?
  205. The prior, not the latter.

    I’ve got docs I send to friends and family, just expanding to a new space.
  206. Ah "space", the great frontier.
  207. Oh sh?t ROFLMAO ....ROFLMAO...ROFLMAO...Rofl...MAO.....
  208. I never said I sell to Joe the doctor.
    I merely pitch to investors whom are qualified. There will be no investors seminar from me.

    Please clean your act up.
  209. Fees, profit share and claw back or money back guarantee?
  210. lessMor.JPG
  211. Yes, of course. I am agreeing with the fact that such statistic of failure is a depressing truth. But I don’t believe that traders can’t make their living from the forex trading. In every field, there are successful players as well as there are unsuccessful players also. What forex traders require is the proper understanding about forex market and a good attitude about the basics of forex trading to earn good money.
  212. Other than being a good trader - that is deft at pulling the trading trigger, what is there to 'understand' about the fx market? Correlations.... anything else?
    Reading the news about fx, do you think this is a good idea? Often finance news is full of BS.
    Please explain "a good attitude about the basics of fx trading", don't understand, how does attitude fit into the equation.
  213. FX is probably the most complex market out there.

    At the microstructure level, it has fragmented execution venues that are not regulated and have really obscure order book dynamics. Add a thriving derivatives market to it and you have a really interesting world of short term effects, albeit that’s very hard to plug into.

    At the mid-term level, there are complex flows - corporate hedgers/converters, option driven events like barriers etc. There are seasonality effects and induced flows due to equity or commodity spill-overs. At the long-term, you need to grasp all of the macro drivers.