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Any experience hiring a programmer? Where should I look?

  1. Hi all,

    Would anyone here have any experience hiring a programmer to create trading applications? Any advice on how to proceed? Where would I find one?

    Long story short, I used a company I found on Guru many years back now. This was a start up company and I was very happy then since they probably underbid the project and also really put in an effort to impress me.

    A few years later, I chose to update what they created, but they were now 10 times larger and didn't really need my business. So, as a compromise with pricing, I was left with one of their youngest programmers and it was a disaster in comparison. Monkey see, monkey do. I had to write out all the logic very detailed and we would always had misunderstandings and a lot of back and forth with beta 1-100 before closing in on something workable.

    I now find myself interested in upgrading this application and I'm considering other venues. Alternatively, simply pay up and use one of their top programmers.

    Any thoughts?

    PS: This is not a very sophisticated software. Merely a statistical tool which automates a lot of stuff I used to do for hand. I could probably have done it myself in MATLAB if I were any good using that.

    PPS: Long term plan is to learn programming myself, but it will probably take me a while.

    Regards.
     
  2. What is your budget per hours ?
     
  3. Chances are you'll get the same crap you're experiencing with upwork. My strategy when I used them was to hire 3 people to independently do the same job. I'd keep the best product and just throw the other 2 away. It's cheap enough you can generally afford to do this, and increases the chance you'll get a repeat on that new guy looking to impress. Not a sustainable strategy for a business, as I discovered, but for a one off like this it might be OK.
     
  4. I'm a software guy in my day job so I write my own trading apps. But if I ever got serious about making a software product for the marketplace I'd get another software guy/gal as a business partner. Hiring random strangers is a real crap-shoot with emphasis on "crap". You could get an experienced professional or some 19 year old script kiddie.

    Something else to consider. Software professionals in North American and Europe are almost 100% employed. Finding someone good who can give your job undivided attention will be hard. You probably would like someone who speaks English, preferably in the US. That makes it even harder.
     
  5. Interesting thread and question. I am also planning to outsource some programming tasks, but the question is always to whom?

    How did you find that company? What were the markers you looked for? Looks like you chose well back then.

    -- anyone has experience with toptal.com?
     
  6. Had several good experiences with Upwork. Each job was done correctly and fast. Payment was only done AFTER I agreed to pay.
    Don't believe all this BS that it will be crap. My programmers were from West Europe and asked 50$ an hour. Software is running already a few years and never had any issues.
    Upwork has programmers specialized in Tradestation, Ninjatrader and others. That is very important as they know these packages. A programmer with no experience in the program you use will deliver crap.
    I let them program "the body", the mathematical part I did myself. Did not want to give away anything.
     
  7. If you would be willing to share the Upwork names of the programmers you used it would be super helpful for them and this community. The problem with Upwork is the huge variability in what you get. Rewarding good work with recommendations helps the whole ecosystem.
     
  8. I have some problems with your request:
    1. I once recommended a programmer to a member of ET. Because payment only occurs after delivery, the programmer never got paid. This ET member came on ET to ask about software and disappeared again when he got what he wanted for free. So there are risks on both sides.
    2. I have to protect myself so I cannot give these names. I used different programmers simultaneously and gave them different parts so that nobody knew what I was doing, and they only had to program these parts (without my know-how). The know-how (mathematical part) I inserted later myself.
    3. All you have to do is filter the programmers based on their experience with the software package you use. Normally they send you the fully working software before they ask payment. So if the software is garbage you can tell it to Upwork and you don't pay. As you know what you want you are in a perfect position to check if the software is what you asked for. For each piece they programmed I paid on average 50-75$. So even if you should have to pay for bad work the damage is small. Much smaller then the risk you take in trading. Each module was delivered very fast, many times within 24 hours.
     
  9. what do you need done? maybe its so trivial someone can post it
     
    Interesting. I'm surprised they don't have an escrow system set up. Maybe it's impractical for a labor market.
     
  10. They do. It might be impractical if you just want a piece of source code that can't be demonstrated when compiled, but even then you can do a milestone payment system. Probably more to the story than was posted.
     
  11. I have done a few projects with this programmer. I ALWYAS received a fully functioning module.
    Sometimes he had to make corrections, which he did within a few your and at NO EXTRA charge.
    Sending a part of the software to show you can program is stupid. The client wants a complete and functioning program that is for 100% what he asked. This programmer is a dream to work with. That's why I did several small projects with him.

    He was only not lucky to run in to an *** who's only aim was to get free software. There was nothing else. I paid 50-75$ for each module, so normal people expect that at these prices you will get payed correctly. It was a wrong assumption. The fact that the ET poster was only on ET for a very short time and disappeared again confirms that it was on purpose. I will try to find the name of this ET criminal and post it later. You can check yourself then the way it went.
     
  12. You actually did what I was advocating. You had multiple modules, you paid for each when it was done, so the programmer knew you were honest didn't have to do all the work up front at risk, and you knew, after the first module, that he/she did quality work. Essentially a milestone system. Not perfect but does limit the risk to both parties.
     
  13. I am software developer on C++ and C# over 20 years experience. We can dicsuss your tasks.
     
  14. This was the criminal an on ET:
    [​IMG]
    Cyn Donn

    He was a few months here and disappeared again, at least with that alias...
    He wrote 5 postings in total, all in the same thread. So clear what his intentions were.
     
  15. I do consider it is a very good idea to use a micro service architecture (independent self-standing software components/modules).

    That way you can more easily outsource your development on other parties. You write tests against the API (I/O), where you test compliance against the specification. Conformance of input API, output API and API round trip latency.

    They (developer) can chose freely the programming language as micro services are language agnostic and one can mix different programming languages in one application.
     
  16. I did not do it only in programming, but also in building the mathematical part of my system. It has a lot of advantages and gives better control over the entire project. Very helpful in case of problems and much more flexibility.
     
  17. I think Mtrader's story shows a couple of "best practices" here:

    -- clearly define your needs for yourself and be able to precisely communicate those to others
    -- choose a programmer with experience and good reviews in the subject and programming language you require
    -- cut down the job into smaller parts
    -- start with one part and learn from the experience

    anything else to add? thanks
     
  18. Considering the time it will take to get this done properly through multiple programmers you might as well learn Python yourself.

    Upwork is the worst place in the world to hire someone for a sensitive project like trading system development. It's an unspoken condition on that platform that the programmer will retain and use your intellectual property how he/she likes and that's why you're paying the low rate. If they know you'll be splitting it between programmers so the IP is effectively worthless to them they will not be interested or will want to charge you a much higher price.

    Mtrader has been able to do it because he knows how they think and managed to get away with it by being one step ahead. Most people won't be able to do this or it will become such a headache that you would've been better off learning Python yourself in the first place.

    If it me, I wouldn't waste anymore time and get the ball rolling asap with Quantopian or Quantiac. You'd be surprised how quickly you can learn something when you start making progress and you can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
     
  19. Not really interested in paying per hour. For the modifications I'm considering, I'd be willing to pay $200-300, I guess.

    Rewriting the entire application including changes, I'd be willing to pay $3000 or so.

    How is that possible? Not quite sure how I'd proceed to do that.

    The good thing about my 'system', is that it needs discretion/logic being used. Luckily, the team I hired seemed to think it were useless. And they don't know quite how to use it and don't seem to be quite interested in the markets anyhow.

    Is yours more of an automated system or what?

    Sorry, but not really interested in sharing it publicly. Basically, it's just automation of collecting statistics and metrics.
     
  20. What I have done in past, late 80s to recent, I go to University here and see Dean of Computer Science, he knows the students who are brightest, so I will ask them of their experience and they all need part time work, and one year I was able to get one of the instructors who was interested in increasing his 401k, he worked for free providing we work on programming together, hell yes. You can also check out Dean of Business/Finance and inquire if any of the brightest also knows how to program.
     
    • I gave a very limited knowledge of programming. So I builded every module in excel.
    • Then I asked a programmer to write a few indicators for me based on a stupid and simple calulation. I made sure that all the elements were in the sample so that I could later replace it with my mathematical part. So I knew for each module how many lines had to be put on the charts, what coulr they shoudl have, lines, points or histogram etc... Big job if you don't want to forget anything.
    • When I received the programmed code the biggest problem wa solved: declarations, variables, properties ans miscellaneaus were already in place. Specially using the right syntax was problematic.
    • If I still needed to add additionla lines or variables I could just copie lines within the module and make the logical adjustments by watching how he did that.
    • Finally I added the mathematical part and tried to complie it till there were no errors anymore.
    • Then I watched the results and compared them with my excels.
    My system is not fully automated. Even if you would see my charts you cannot see how everything exactly works and what the rules are.
     
  21. Had to write quick so a few grammatical mistakes. I've no dislexia. :D
     
  22. It is too low. 3k is a 2 weeks of programming (I know I know you can find more cheaper guy but all quality risks will be yours). For 2 weeks no one can rewrite your app. No one. It period only for gathering requirements and any no code lines.

    So that is why you cannot find a programmer - you have very limited budget, not equals to tasks.
     
  23. I've considered that also. I happen to have a University nearby which I think are pretty big on programming. Regardless, in my own experience, graduates don't really know much at all, but I figure programming might be different.

    Were you happy about what you got this way?
     
  24. Interesting. I don't think I'd be able to proceed this way for my project.

    But as mentioned, an advantage is that my system, so to speak, ain't an automated thing. It needs logic and discretion being used. So, not knowing how to use it, I don't fear theft of intellectual property. The exception being if it's some clever guy who's into the markets himself.

    Generally, yes, I think. I'm willing to increase my budget further down the line. Just not right now.

    Still, I think there's ways to work around this. For instance, the company I first used was a start-up, so they probably underbid. They did the whole thing for $2500 if I recall correctly and they certainly spent a few weeks on it including some R&D. Now, there's not really much R&D involved since the thing is pretty much finished.

    If I were to find a student as suggested by Handle123 or some other start-up interested in creating a name for themselves, I'm sure I could get it done for a reasonable price.
     
  25. No, you don't. In finally you will get another one app that will not working properly like current.
     
  26. Just so we're clear, the application I have IS working properly. I would just like to improve it, add some more features and make it more efficient.

    Adding some more features is priority number one. Making it more efficient is second priority and not anything I'm dependent on doing.
     
  27. Before InvBox can draw any conclusion about the price and if it will work or not he should have fully detailed information. He clearly has not, so his statement is irrelevant.
     
  28. Good point. Obviously, as with everything, a task can be both small and large.
     
  29. Ok. Seems I've got the wrong current the app's state.

    Wish you finish all features in the app.
     
  30. Absolutely, as I have kept couple of them over ten years of doing part time each week, and since I manage their 401k for them, they throw in the programming, so comes out well. They both have gotten much faster and they often have some ideas themselves they share.
     
  31. I wasn't yet able to upgrade my software, but I'm looking into it now. The company I used in the past wants $ 1800 for the first thing I'm planning and estimates it to be one week of work.

    Certainly well above what I had in mind budget wise, but maybe it's unrealistic to expect to get it done for anything less.

    I've considered other options, but then I'll have to go through a lot of headache explaining them the logic and so on. Also, there's the risk of ending up with some crappy programmer and a job poorly done.

    So, maybe I simply have to pay up.
     
  32. It sounds like you already realize this so I'll just provide you some outside validation; A 40 hour week for $1,800 comes out to $45/hour. That's a very good price for a full time programmer, let alone a freelancer who has to charge extra for the lumpiness of their workflow and to cover their expenses.
    Software development is very much a "get what you pay for" field. If you found someone who's already done good work for you not only is the price fair but you'd almost certainly spend more money and encounter more frustration, not to mention opportunity cost, as you went through 3 sub-par experiences to get back to your original dev. Negotiate a $100 off from your original dev so you feel good about it, and feel blessed you have a good dev you can trust.
     
  33. What language is your app written in? I might be able to help.
     
  34. I am currently working with a guy on UpWork to help build a prototype in EasyLanguage. This is part of a larger project where my system will generate EasyLanguage code but I just need a good example of certain things being programmed with EasyLanguage before I can proceed to the next phase. I will report back how it works out with the developer.
     
  35. Thanks, guys. I decided to let them get the job.

    The developer ain't THAT good and there has been some frustration on my end, but it gets done in the end. So, for the cost, I think I should be satisfied. :)
     
  36. So, my programmer is currently completing my upgrade on this project. It's not horrible, but I'm not really satisfied either. I feel the main problem is language barrier and miscommunication. It's hard to communicate the finer points with someone who had to use Google Translate to translate the word December.

    Currently in the process of sending stuff back and forth, i.e., approving of what he's done. Sent him a large list yesterday. Got the new application back and there was still like 3/8 from my old list that was not fixed. Maddening.

    It's a very frustrating process.

    I'm doing a second upgrade in addition to this also and I have considered other alternatives (Upwork? Guru?). But, perhaps this is what I'm left with considering my budget.

    I was so happy the first time around as I was getting royal treatment when this company was getting into business. Very intelligent advice and great communication all the way. Now, I'm a low priority customer for sure, probably left with their worst programmer.
     
  37. The bottom line is whether the programme once coded up is profitable.
    If you are not code savvy you will never know why it isn't profitable. Is it the details you supplied or the coder's fault ?
    MQL.com have a step by step freelance section where the money is paid upfront to let the coder know he has money coming and if there is a dispute they will arbitrate. They charge 10% for this service. It helps if you understand/speak Russian.
     
  38. regrets? for those who want things programmed you should ask on a mailing list or stackoverflow how to do this or that. I wouldn't be surprised that you could get everything needed. In your eyes the program is complex but more than likely it's trivial. The cost is that people cannot explain what they want
     
  39. Several people on this thread (myself included) have offered to help with your project. Maybe we are out of your budget range...maybe we are not. If the former, perhaps we could point you in the right direction. What is a high level overview of the project? Language?
     
  40. Couldn't agree more. Coding is not expensive. Dealing with non-technical client is very frustrating and time draining. I bet if you can post detailed spec of what you need, you'd get a fair offer on upwork or anywhere else.
     
  41. I second that, my programmers know the space we work in so we can give them a rough explanation of a problem and they come back with a better solution than we could have specific in a fraction of the hours it took our previous offshore team. I can literally afford to pay them 5 times more and still come out ahead in monetary terms counting our saved spec, test, and rework time and their hourly time. That doesn't even count the decrease in frustration for us and our clients and the reputational benefit of getting a bug free product out on schedule.
     
  42. It's not an automated program or algorithm, but merely a set of tools that help me automate cumbersome processes I already do manually. The logic is written for me and it's easy for me to check if things are accurate, although it is of course time consuming initially to make sure things are correct.
     
  43. It's not an indicator in Ninjatrader or anything. The mathematics involved aren't complex, but it's a rather large set of calculations which in sum are complex.

    You're right that it's complex in my eyes, but that's simply because I'm not a programmer. The time I'd spend learning programming now is better utilized in other ways for the time being. But, I do want to learn programming long term of course. :)
     
  44. Hi,

    Thanks.

    Are you a programmer yourself? You mentioned using a programmer on Upwork...?

    I prefer not to discuss details publicly, but in summary it's an application which calculates various statistics and metrics according to my discretion and code. It's written in C# and uses Excel.
     
  45. Seems like there's mixed opinions on this (i.e., coding being expensive or not).

    Do you have any experiences using people on Upwork?

    The thing is that when I first designed this using programmers from Guru, I didn't have a clear vision, but actually got massive help from this company just starting out. I was getting great service.

    Now, I have a clear vision, but a programmer who seems to be sub-par, has poor english skills and offer zero ideas on his own. Of course, I don't expect him to be very clever, but it would be great to actually discuss a solution and not just give out orders. :)

    Who's your programmers, may I ask? :)

    You seemed to have mixed opinions with regards to Upwork on page 1.
     
  46. Yes...I am a programmer. I hired a programmer on UpWork to help with a platform I was not familiar with. He got the project going but he was overlooking some bugs so I terminated the project before completion and finished the job myself. Send me a PM with some more info on the project. If I cannot help because of budgetary concerns or for any other reasons, I would be happy to help screen some candidates for you on UpWork.
     
  47. I only tried once, so take it for what it's worth. I got an impression that they want a cookie-cutter type of jobs - something they might have done already and now can easily re-use for other clients (cut-and-paste). When I explained to the guy what I need and that I myself am a developer, I never heard back from him again. It's very nice of fan27 to offer help with screening the candidates, but I suspect they will be immediately turned off by this.

    Unfortunately, I don't have a solution for you. Someone suggested talking to local college professors, which I think is a great idea as the students may need experience and references to put on a resume.

    BTW, when I say coding is not expensive, I mean the process of taking detailed spec and converting it to code. Understanding what customer needs (often completely different from what he/she asks for), figuring out the best way to accomplish it (keeping client's long term interests in mind), and translating it to technical requirements, is the expensive part. Not much different from other professions, including yours I presume.

    If you do find a solution, being it upwork or whatever, please share your experience. Good luck.
     
  48. Hi,

    I probably will later tonight as I'm late for work now.

    Now, budgetary concerns is one thing, but my largest concern is probably sharing my work with others, especially on a forum with traders. I do believe I have some unique ideas and perspectives. Maybe I'm slow, but it's taken me quite a long while to figure out a lot of what I already have. So, I find that I have some issues sharing this...

    The advantage with those I'm currently using is that they don't seem to give a sh*t about trading. Also, the solution requires discretion to use (it's not some black box system that generates trading signals), so that's an added advantage in terms of people stealing my ideas...
     
  49. Understand.

    Thanks! :)

    I'll say that for my current application, 90% + is already accomplished. At this point, it's more about optimizing it (it's slow) and possibly creating a better layout/front end.

    There shouldn't be any major changes with regards to logic or functionality.
     
  50. I used rent-a-coder before they became freelancer.com . I used them to find someone to update old code in a website I co-administered. I prefered to pay someone that already knew that particular language rather than learn it myself...even though I'd been coding since my teens. (I believe time was of the essence.) I had no problems.
     
  51. There's been some development.

    I got a reply from the CEO with an apology for not answering sooner and telling me he would help out with support during the next project. In fact, I was pissed because I've gotten the impression of being ignored as a not-so-important (i.e., small) customer and was preparing to leave ship.

    I will for sure complete this project with them and possibly also do the second I had in mind, but I'm certainly open for other options in the future (both short-term/long-term).

    Getting someone completely new now would involve having to spend a lot of time getting them up to speed, revealing 'business secrets' and also risk actually getting a worse job done. One other benefit with this company is that they're held liable and actually give me a 3 month guarantee. They always made good on this in the past and correct any mistakes I point out.

    The frustration lately has been mostly that I feel the current programmer is sub-par to the ones I first had in the company and mostly language issues. But, maybe that could be evened out if I could get some support inside the company.
     
  52. Can any of you guys with hand on heart tell me that you have a consistently profitable system ?
    It may imho be impossible. After all consider what you are trying to do. Forecasting what some unknown people will do in the next few minutes/hours/days in terms of trading the instrument you have picked ? It's a tall order. Maybe we will have to wait till quantum computers are available as desktops.
     
  53. In this case no any problem to get some money and hire Q&A team into your own office:)

    Like many programmers some traders believe they idea has a price. But the true is idea without implementation has a price = $0.

    Firstly, proove. Espesially for your self. And you will surprice how quckly other specialists will appear around you.

    You cannot find right guys because only one reason - no enough money (witch mean no successful trading).:D
     
  54. Right guys are hard to find, even with the "right" amount of money. That's the nature of the game - the really good people are always in demand, have multiple offers and are hiding. Bad guys are all over the place.
     
  55. A bit like good fundmanagers. Same problem.
     
  56. There are many possible answers; some of them:
    1. You can only be profitable if you can what the mass cannot achieve. If not there would be too many winners and not enough losers. That would be mathematical impossible because the winners in general make lots of money and the losers lose smaller. So we need lost of losers to feed the winners.
    2. What looks impossible to you, can be possible for someone else.
    3. What looks impossible to you now, can be possible for you in futur.
    4. What looks impossible to you can be impossible for the entire world.
     
  57. I hired a freelance programmer to do work for me in the past.
    The quality of the code you can vary a lot. In my experience, a good programmer will understand the business reason for your programming. Many programmers just want to start coding, but don't have any interest in understanding why the project exists in the first place. You must ensure your developer understands your business/intentions so that they know the real problem they are solving and not just the narrow scope of the project.
     
  58. $200/hr and up for good guys who understand the business, how to communicate and of course code. Most of the plebs here are better off learning python and hiring a mentor on codementor to overcome hurdles. It's possible to hire great devs on codementor for $60 an hour. Lots of them can handle the analytics component (time series analysis, correlation, cointegration etc) but I couldn't find anybody who coded to a popular trading API.

    As for full on automation, I would only use the $200/hr guys. A bug in a trading algo can be very expensive. Or just use ADL and CQG's scripting language and be done with it. Just my 0.002.

    And I count myself amongst the plebs using $45- $60/hr developers ;)
     
  59. In 99% cases - money is a reason.
     
  60. There are plenty of college students who'll do it for beer money. :D
     
  61. Actually, when hiring really good people in 99% of cases money is not the reason. For example, it's totally common to see these people to pick a job that pays 50% less but is more interesting (e.g. see a guy pick a job at google over a job at a hedge fund). It's more about the team, the actual content and the purpose of work etc.
     
  62. Just my opinion - don't try to get best people, get good enough to get things going. Good article on this subject below. The main idea, relevant to this discussion, start ups are willing to sacrifice quality for cost and speed to market.

     
  63. There is a number of differences between a developer at a start-up and a quant developer in a PM group or a fund. The main one is that "I know what I want but I don't know how to do it" - in most cases, there is no project, so things like creative thinking and ability to pick up business knowledge quickly matter as much as coding ability.
     
  64. Another consideration is what needs to be built. Coding an indicator or a relatively simple app is a lot different than building software that can be built upon, scale and easily be extended.
     
  65. Imo, the best (only?) way to bridge the gap between the smart, logical layperson and the less skilled developer is via flowcharts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowchart

    If the layperson can think logically, they should be able to draw a flowchart(s) describing what they want. The developer can then refine the chart with questions to the layperson. Charts also create a 'clearer' and easy record of what is expected.

    The charts can start very generally...and become more specific over time.

    In sum, if dealing with a competent coder, the coder will ask the necessary questions--client won't need to make charts etc. But if dealing otherwise, also use flowcharts to communicate with the less skilled coder.

    If the client is not a logical thinker and can't communicate precisely, ... and the coder is less skilled ... good luck.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  66. Flowcharts are pretty much useless in the current OOP environment, the type of flowchart shown above hasn't really been used by actual developers since the 80s. That said anything that helps you organize your thoughts to spec out a project is good, so perhaps at a very high level this might be useful.
     
  67. Add to that the consequences of errors in at least consumer oriented startup software is significantly lower than the consequences of errors in financial software. It's not unusual to spend significantly more time on testing and bug fixes than on actual development even in a non mission critical app, something to think about if you haven't budgeted any time for that.
     
  68. Yeah, thought it was obvious that I was talking high-level since the non-programmer client would be the one creating it.
     
  69. That's exactly what I've been doing:)
     
  70. I personally had some very good experience with programmers from Ukraine and Belarus. (Have you noticed that at some quant shops they all speak Russian?) They charge around 40% less than some also very good ones from Ireland, 100 usd per hour could get you the very best ones to pick from. Just make sure they can understand you perfectly via email or chat. In pseudocode or what ever. Also their specialties should roughly fit your needs. Their economies are struggling so you are also doing them a favor.

    If you don't have a preference, you can also use a language that are easy to interpret so you can modify it later yourself.

    Serbian programmers may be good too, but I have no experience with them.
     
  71. Just a note.

    The ethnicity/native-tongue/location of a programmer has little to do with whether a programmer is competent (imo), but it may have something to do with how much they charge.

    For example, I would never tell (nor insinuate to) someone who is looking to hire a programmer, that all programmers in the USA (or wherever) are competent. I would consider that bad advice.
     
  72. Anyone used toptal, or are they pricing themselves to cater to larger companies?
     
  73. Professionals has a high price. And google pay every time good price for hired people.

    Professional never do non interesting work. Never. So it has zero correlation with total price.

    Guys you are on financial markets. You MUST to know cost of the money))
     
  74. I have interviewed a guy that decided to go to Google (or was it FB, I don’t recall) for less than half of what my firm was going to offer. We offered 250 total and he went to google for 120. Over 5-6 years of the “expected life” the difference adds up to a fair bit of money. Over the lifetime it’s literally the difference between becoming a millionaire by the age of 35-40 or not. Yet for him the content was just or even more important than pay.
     
  75. Are you still interviewing for that $250k per year position? ;)
     
  76. Fooled by Ramdomness for you )
     
  77. Could be a very rational choice imo. The guy maybe just thinking long term career path. Also being promised 250k of total comp is NOT the same as actually getting it. Not to mention that Wall Street gets a bad rap nowadays, deservedly so imo. For most creative people, after some threshold, money alone is a poor motivator.
     
  78. The problem is the person hiring the programmer has no idea what the difference is between a good programmer or a novice one or sloppy one.

    Learn some programming yourself and you'll easily be able to differentiate between the two, unless you are lazy..
     
  79. Well, for the first year he’d have a guaranteed total comp.

    I met him for a drink after he emailed me with a “no”. I think he wanted to do ML-related stuff and, in general, felt that the intellectual challenge in CS is far more obvious. Main gripe of CS people in financial markets is that there is a lot of daily grid to contend with. There is also an aspect of doing tangible productive work. So I totally understand his choice, I was just addressing the point that “if you can’t get the best people, you’re not paying enough”.
     
  80. In my limited experience, I've seen this upfront.
     
  81. Considering cost of living, that is a tremendous sacrifice. Or is it a huge reward depending one's perspective?
     
  82. I think he was staying in the NYC (there is a google campus here) so it was not a consideration. Maybe working in pure CS is far less stressful.
     
  83. Oh, I wish it was that simple. Companies spend a lot of money to find the "right" candidate and still end up with "bad" employees. If you are a senior developer, you spend/waste lots of time interviewing which is not a pleasant experience (at least for a person who just wants to code). I don't think "some programming" will help you much. Even if you are able to determine that the candidate is technically sound it does NOT mean he/she will do a good job. I've seen experts that were impossible to work with ... not because they were obnoxious personalities, but rather they did not fit the culture/environment and being very good technically, did not feel the need to conform/compromise. They just split at the first opportunity. I think you need to get someone by recommendation and then find out what the person's motivation is. If it's just money, I would be hesitant. Nothing wrong with that, but I prefer that the person has some additional reason and better yet some skin in the game.
     
  84. It's a very different thing trying to find a dev who works well in a team environment in a regular day job vs finding someone to do one-off single person jobs like the OP is looking for. Often the lone wolves who suck at working a real job for that reason are ideal for the OPs type of job.
     
  85. Have sex with him first. Good programmers are good at sex.
     
  86. http://larmeeassociates.com/ If anybody is interested. About 70/hr, US based. I've worked with him before and he did well. Primarily works with futures and futures spreaders. Do your own due diligence of course.
     
  87. Thanks so much, Gambit. Bill.
     
  88. This is something that makes no sense... I can't understand how can someone that has a valueable idea think that he/she will hire a programmer to make it "come to life" and expect that the programmer won't "steal" or "copy" the idea for himself and just quit programming for others for peanuts altogether.
    Surely logic shows that anyone who does this, has no actual valueable idea and is just fooling himself... Which means that the programmer will receive his peanuts and the person will just get a useless "programmed strategy".
    I mean... WTF???? If the guy has the idea and knows how to code his own idea... I can understand that...
    But there is no way to code an idea for someone else e not understand it, even if the work is divided among different programmers, otherwise it would be impossible to code it... So that brings us again to the same idea: the only way to do this is to literally give the keys of the safe with the "Goose that Lays the Golden Eggs" in it.:rolleyes:
     
  89. Thanks, Neotrader. I am not looking for anything PROPRIETARY, but I do need help with implementing charting, linking to Realtick, alerts, etc. all through Excel into Realtick. I do not have the "golden goose or golden egg".

    I hope this "makes sense" to you now.

    Bill
     
  90. Good luck with that...:)
     
  91. Well, for me, what I'm developing isn't an automated strategy, but rather a set of tools that helps me read the market and I already feel I've divulged too much by saying that. It does require discretion, skill, knowledge and brains to use. There's no way a programmer without any market knowledge would be able to use this. In fact, even a programmer with some market experience would probably not either.

    Do you understand better now...?

    Anyway, what you're mentioning is also part of the reason I prefer to stay with the company I've already done business with since I'd hate to put my ideas out into the open one more time.

    This company is currently completing my project, but it's been frustrating and time consuming. Typically, I point out errors and get 50% of it fixed. Then I have to point out the same errors one more time to get them fixed. Very frustrating.

    But, the job gets done eventually and for what I'm paying, I guess I should be happy...
     
  92. No, I don't. Simplicity is better... Too much bells and whistles are usually worthless... This is more of a "one brain" thing... If you need to much stuff and to involve too much people in your trading, you're probably fooling yourself. True traders are absolute loners... Hermits... But I have no idea what you do, so this is just an opinion... I wish you the best regardless:).
     
  93. Feel free to disagree regarding that, although you have to admit that it's hard to disagree with something you have 'no idea' about according to yourself.

    Point is - I'm not overly afraid of intellectual theft with this particular company at the moment, but yes, I wouldn't be comfortable laying out all my logic to a new company and take that risk. Which is why I haven't spoken more about it on these forums or even to people who PM-ed me.
     
  94. I think some guys are being too paranoid. So the programmer has understood your system. So what. One more person knowing won't make a bit of difference to the market price.
    The " get off - it's all mine " is just ridiculous. 99% are crap anyway. The programmer is probably having a good laugh
     
  95. Hi, I need someone for develop a tool for Sierracharts, can you help me?