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50million at clip with FXCM

  1. I just found out that you can trade upto 50million with FXCM.

    I think that is the highest number I have seen so far.

    Looks like they have the largest liquidity among retail brokers.

    Can any other broker (including ECN type) handle 50millioin at clip?
  2. I hope they don't bucket that..cause if they do it's more than the company's capital and thus rather scary
  3. Do you really think FXCM trades against their clients for profit and they put those profitable traders in manual execution to make them loose?

    I don't think so.

    I am not big fan of FXCM but it just doesn't make sense.

    Does that mean there is no profitable retail client with auto execution with FXCM?

    Let's get real.
  4. not bad if they guarantee the fills at the displayed price... on an ecn (hotspotfxi, currenex etc) there is no limit in terms of order size fyi
  5. I thought you can only trade upto the amt they show on the platform.

    For IB, 5million at clip is the max size.

    Maybe I am wrong... I have never used ECN type.
  6. Rationality, or "sense" (to quote from your post), dictates that the fx retailer bucket (hold) its customers' trades, not the contrary.

    A retailer would be negligent if it didn't hold the trades and use its pricing power and price algorithms to exploit the net position it owns as a result of the customers' positions. Does it also hedge some of the remoter risks of its net position? It might, because that, like trading against its customers, is the rational course. Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered, is the adage that comes to mind.

  7. Currenex is usually good for about 160 million on a 3 pip spread for euro dollar. on the one pip spread it is good for about 30 million.

    Anyone trading moe than 50k with FXCM is insane, in my opinion.
  8. Couldn't have said it better myself.
  9. You mean trading 50K (5 mini lots)? or 50k in acct?
  10. 5 mini lots.
  11. I don't understand the rational behind this commentary. I regularily trade 5 mini lots and more with FXCM. How is it that I could be considered "insane"?

    Thanks for any input.

  12. uh...

    FXCM DOES make money by trading against customer accts.

    How did you think they made money?
  13. Well, I'm under the impression they make their money through the bid/ask spread. The idea that they trade against their customer accounts is novel, but does not make a lot of sense. The currency markets seem much to complex to simply base a trading position on/against the combined positions of their customers. From a broker business perspective, it would make more sense to stick to their bread and butter and offset the net postion of their clients in the market.

    And even if they did take the position opposite mine, I don't see how that qualifies me as being "insane" any more than another trader in the market taking a position against mine. Somebody has to take the other side.

    So, I suppose I would doubt that FXCM makes its money by trading against its customer accounts, but lacking insider proof of this, I would add that I really don't care if they are on the other side of my trade.

  14. Yes, they take the spread.

    Guess who gets the crappy end of that spread? Most forex firms, including FXCM, trade against customer funds for their income. They set the spreads however they choose. This is why their spreads are wider than ECN firms which charge a commission.

    No, it is not in their interest for you to fail, but it is not in their interest for you to get the best fill either, as that is money out of their pockets.

    I was not one of the guys that said you were nuts to use them. If you are good at what you do, FXCM is just fine. The problem is that you will pay a pip or two more than you need to usually, and occasionally get requoted, which is the worst part.

    You will not get requoted using an ECN, and you will get the best fill available, usually via several sources. There is no conflict of interest as its their job to get you the best fill (an ECN takes nno position). All income to them is via commish, which depending on the firm, is as low as a quarter pip or so.

    Trading with firms such as FXCM, Oanda, etc is fine when you are doing minis. When you do full size, it just doesn't make sense unless you are a position trader. Then it doesn't really matter. (except for security of funds).
  15. you are correct! I believe FXCM offers Currenex through their Prop FX subsidy.

    How many brokers are offering Currenex outside the Prime Brokers? You clear through a Prime broker?? Correct??
  16. for ecn brokers when you say you can recieve as low as a quater pip does commission change depending on the pair your trade
  17. Incorrect, 5 million is just the standard max size you can get it expanded and they will let you swing as big as the system/market makers can handle. I know you could do 10 million maybe up to 20 pretty easily. Whatever you take out ---the market makers put it right back into the system. If you need a higher limit --just call IB. It is that simple.
  18. Is Currenex quoting in half pips for the USD/YEN or EUR/USD???
  19. yes, even thinner on eurusd, e.g. 1.24517, at times
  20. The commission is as low as a quarter pip ($2 - 2.50 per 100k traded). The spread itself can get that low as well, but most don't go less than a half pip.

    The commission charged is not dependent on the pair (as far as I know); however, the spread most definitely is.

  21. I have quoted your post but hopefully the reply is relevant to a few other people who have asked questions.

    I do believe FXCM offers Currenex through prop fx - they dont charge brokerage but believe they widen the spread.

    I do clear through a prime broker and I would say the spread is usually 1 pip euro and yen and 2 on cable. Of course you can stick bids and offers in so you receive the spread if you choose. The prices you see will depend on which prime broker you choose.

    The reason I said anyone using FXCM is insane is for several reasons. I have known a lot of people have accounts with them (including myself a few years ago) and we all agreed they adopted very sharp practices. Other reasons include the fact I do not know anyone who was succesful with them who was not put on manual execution, the spreads are wide and their credit rating is not high enough for me to risk my capital.

    I hope this clears up any confusion.
  22. Well,

    I think the input has been beneficial for myself personally. I have looked into currenex and better understand why it would be a better alternative for many traders. For myself, at this particular time regarding my trading size and style, the FXCM platform seems to work exceptionally well.

    Lon Eagle, I don't think in the years that I have had my FXCM account that I have ever been put on manual. What actually occurs when this happens? How would one recognize that he is on manual as oppossed to the regular platform performance?

    Again, thanks for any input.

  23. Do you really think, that these are the spreads at Currenex ???


    Nobody would pay for Currenex, if this would be,
    what you get there.

  24. Right, and just to elaborate further...when Lon Eagle mentions sharp practices...I would think he's refering to common bucket shop practices such as price shading, price spiking, stop running, platform freezing around news releases, and of course..as he mentioned...the posibility of being put on manual execution.
    Considering all of these issues along with the fact that their spreads are not competitive, I just don't think it makes sense for anyone to trade with them.

  25. I don't believe I have experienced the practices you mention at FXCM. Proving or disproving price shading would be an arduous task considering the nature of the FX market.

    Price spiking occurs within the natural environment of the FX market. I have never had a problem with FXCM spiking my position. I am aware of what appears to be an isolated incident surrounding I believe an NFP release some time ago, but nothing concrete and exclusive to FXCM other than that isolated incident.

    Likewise, stop running would occur in the natural environment of the FX market, but again, I have never experienced FXCM exclusively taking out my stop when the broader market has said otherwise.

    FXCM's platform is ideal for the type of trades that I put on, and I should say that other traders, though, requiring constant access may have valid issues relative to their trading needs. For instance, I have experienced being disconnected from the server, but for me, it is a minor annoyance. Of course for a short term trader entering and exiting at market it could mean disaster.

    The issue of being put on manual I suspect revolves around entering and exiting at market in quick/scalping fashion. I think it is safe to say that FXCM's platform is not suitable for this and that it is a type of trading that they, at least to me, appear as if they do not desire to support.

    Anyways, I think I have satisfied my curiousity as to why some may consider me "insane" for trading with FXCM.

  26. I also have an account at fxcm an agree with you from what I seen so far, but I have to ask since I am a daytrader and I do get in and out fast: How often have you noticed that you were disconnected from the server, and how long does it take torecconect usually? Does it ever happen during economic releases, cause that would be bad for my trading stile.
  27. The only times that I have lost connection to the server is about within 5 minutes to rollover when I am due to pay interest. When I go to close my postition at market, a pop up comments something like "connection with server has been lost".

    It actually connects quite quickly...as quick as it is to log into your trading station as this is how you actually re-connect.

    One time in particular stands out. I was connected with 4 computers to my account, anticipating this was going to happen as it had a few times in the past. With each computer as I tried to exit at market the pop up occured. After the fifth time on my first re-connection I got my postion closed.

    Really, for my trading style it amounts to an annoyance and it has happened enough times that I don't think it is a coincidence. For day traders needing to enter and exit quickly at market, I'm not sure there would be this problem except, by my experience, perhaps around rollover. I say this because with the exception of rollover, my connection is never a problem.

    I honestly can't make a good comment on this type of a problem during economic releases, as I am either already in and have my limits/stops already set, or not trading the release.

    Overall, I find the platform very dependable, but I have gathered that FXCM is not "scalper friendly".

  28. You may not have ran in to these issues (I'm glad) but I've seen enough complaints from various people to convice me that they do exist.

    Price shading is not the easiest thing to prove, but, intuitively it's not that hard to spot. If the market immediately moves against you every time you place a trade...provable or not it's pretty clear as to what's going on.

    FXCM and other bucketshops manipulating data feed (falling grosly out of line with with the feeds of reuters, bloomberg, esignal, etc) for the purpose of taking out their clients stops is something that has been discussed and complained about extensively. Again, I'm glad this hasn't happened to you but it seems clear that it has and does happen.

    I agree that, in general, swing traders like yourself would find these unscrupulous practices far less problematic. However, even if I was a Swing Trader I wouldn't deal with FXCM because I wouldn't want to be involved with any broker that engages in shady practices against any of their customers...whether they be scalpers, swing traders or any other type of trader.

    I know this is less of an issue to you than it would be to a short term trader but the spreads at FXCM are not competitive when compared to several respected fx brokers such as oanda, IB, hotspot, currenex, currency futures, etc.

    I guess I would just say that no matter what one's trading style may be, there are many better brokerage options out there.
  29. Also, you might want to check FXCM quotes side by side with any "ECN" type firm. I have done a side by side with IB IDEAL PRO, and IB leads by about 5 seconds or so almost always (you need mkt to be moving to see this. Sideways action impossible to compare).

    I wouldn't want to be trading a mkt with lagging data. I just did this again before writing this post btw.
  30. And you don't find that shady??
  31. Which platform at FXCM are you talking about anyway? They already state that they take spread on all client trades...

    If its a request for quote function then of course it makes it a hell of a lot easier for any system to see what your doing before you execute, thus shade the rate one way or another thats not shading its been common practice in the FX markets even when using the phone.....

    If your trading spot FX you should be using a spot streaming platform where its either fixed spreads or high bro. This means they cannot shade the price at time of execution based on what you want to do...of course if you only open and close positions with one broker then it does also make it easier to keep track of your position and shade the streaming price accordingly.

    I would suggest having two systems one for opening positions and another for closing...
  32. :eek:

    Here's an interesting article in today's (4/24/06) NY Post:


    Hey, I personally don't trade currencies, and after hearing everything I've heard about it, I really don't think I want to ... it seems like the retail trader is considered "prey" in that industry.


  33. Refcofx really ruined the reputation of entire retail forex industry for sure...

    I really hope the happy ending with refcofx acct holders...
  34. Thanks for the link to the Post article. The article is worthy of quoting here, particularly for the benefit of any customer of a fx retailer prone to believe what the retailer tells him, directly or through the retailer's agents on boards like ET:


    Gary Gray, who started trading foreign currency on the RefcoFX platform as a way to supplement his retirement income, has $30,000 tied up in his account that he can't touch.

    "I believe I have been conned by RefcoFX," Gray said. He wrote a letter this week to bankruptcy court Judge Robert Drain pleading for access to his cash. Gray said that before he opened an account at Refco he was assured that his money would be safe.

    "RefcoFX is committed to offering clients unrivaled retail and institutional execution, easy accessibility, safety of funds," read a pitch he received from RefcoFX last July.

    After news of the bankruptcy hit, Refco told Gray his funds were safe.

    "We have our own separate bank accounts from Refco LLC, and in addition, client funds are held in a separate account from our operating funds," a Refco rep wrote him on Oct. 14.

    "Therefore, please be assured that your funds are in no way affected by this recent news, are held safely with RefcoFX at Bank of America, and are available to trade or withdraw anytime."

    The frozen accounts reveal how bankruptcies of major financial institutions can affect not only the company's investors but its clients as well.

    Gail Butler began trading foreign currency with Refco last spring as a way to support herself and her four children after her husband lost his job and had to declare personal bankruptcy.

    "I can't say that all my financial problems are a result of the collapse of RefcoFX, but I can say that I never expected my problems to be exacerbated by a crooked businessman who makes more in a year than I can dream of making in 20 years," said Butler, who has $50,000 in a frozen account.

  35. Guys,

    FXCM is King of the Buckets, Currenex is broker dependant meaning whoever gives you the system will determine who / how good of liquidity you will get.

    Hotspot FX is clean on both systems, retail and institutional. If you are trading 50M at a clip, get real, you're not doing it on FXCM. They have 1/2 pips ono the institutional side and the retail is not against you.
  36. Hey Jimbo,

    Absolutly correct! The suckers and their money would soon be parted regardless, and that goes as well for the sympathetic mom/daughter picture in your linked article. With Refco going under from their super thief it just happened a little quicker.

    DON'T trade currencies is the message...And further to that, don't trade commodities or stocks either...the odds are against you and in all likelyhood you will lose.

    If you put your money on the table, don't think for a minute its safe. And if you never put your money on the table, don't fool yourself into thinking something bad couldn't happen.

  37. Dont trade currenecies, dont trade commodities, dont trade stocks?....can you tell me why your are on a forum called Elite trader?
  38. I think the message is that one needs to be selective about who they trade with. Certainly it is true that the majority of people who trade these markets lose money and a relatively small number of people make money. I think most active traders understand this and we're clearly willing to take the risk. The Refco situation, however, is a completely separate issue and as tragic as it is it can be avoided.
    If security of funds is of paramount importance, open an accont with a firm such as Interactive Brokers. By no means are they perfect but you can trade Stocks, currency futures, and forex all through a transparent, fair market place along with having your account insured up to 500k.
  39. Is IB universal acct insured up to 500K against bankrupcy of the firm?
  40. How about that with IB idealpro, it's a fair marketplace however the liquidity is only provided by a few banks. When one or two pull their orders not much is left. In extreme conditions I can imagine that one can have a huge problem exiting a position.
  41. Yes, I believe so. Check out their website.
  42. At this point, I believe they have at least 5 major banks providing liquidity not to mention the many hedge funds, companies, and individuals trading on their ECN. I think their liquidity is quite good. I haven't heard of any complaints in regards to getting orders filled in extreme or any other conditions. There are a lot of people on elite trader that trade forex with IB. If any one of our members were having difficulty getting their orders filled we would certainly here about it.
  43. Although he got my name wrong :) , there is a lot of truth to what Linus wrote about, uh, not trading, and although gowron8 was technically "more accurate" in his assessment of the issue(s), the fact of the matter is that the active retail trader must be aware of the fact that these businesses exist to make money, and at least in part (I don't have th exact percentage breakdown, because I am not on that side of the industry), they are looking to make their money "off of" the small retail trader.

    This is done through:

    1) Bad Fills
    2) Bad Data
    3) System Failure
    4) Over charging on commissions
    5) miscellaneous brokerage fees
    6) illiquid (and frozen) markets (major server goes down, etc.)
    7) etc., etc., etc.

    No Brokerage House is exempt from any (or all) of these practices (bucket shops been around for centuries, folks) AND to the point which Linus was alluding to and that was addressed in a separate thread about Paper Trading vs Live Trading, those items mentioned MUST be factored into your Trading Plan.

    The issue with FX (or currency, or forex, or whatever you want to call it) trading is that there is a HUGE grey area there which allows all sorts of chicanery to take place that you probably wouldn't see in the US based markets, because of at least minimal regulation (of the US markets), and the threats of government investigation of misstatement of the facts and misdeeds (we've seen some of that around here, now haven't we?).

    Best Regards,


  44. Thanks for your reply.

    I am in the process of switching from indexfutures to currency trading and am not very familliar with IB idealpro, but I can see the difference between them and ''the buckets'!
  45. Why would the entity like hedge funds trade on retail ECN when they can trade with whole sale like currenex, hotspotfxi, and so on...?

    I think those retail ECN type model (IB, HotspotFXR, and MBT) is for undercaptialized individuals. Thus, there are only individual retail clients and big banks (as liquidity providers).
  46. Wow, I'm learning a lot about the business (and like I said, I don't even trade'em).

    Hope you FX types are taking note, I just believe that where there's smoke, there's fire ... and in case you're wondering, yep I've been around the block and had my "learning experiences", so that's why, while I'm aware of the upside of trading, I also keep an eye on the downside.


  47. I agree in the sense that a hedge fund trading a lot of currency is more likely to trade through a prime or second tier broker with the likes of currenex or hotspotfxi. Again though, my understanding is that liquidity on IB and hotspot is very good and more than enough for just about any individual trader (undercapitalized or well capitalized). I can't say the same about MBT simply because I don't know much about them.
  48. Jimmy, I agree with you. Regulation in the retail forex industry is minimal and selecting a good, honest, reliable broker is critical to a forex traders success.
  49. Just being curious but what are the minimums for Currenex and FXall at various brokers.

    My broker told me 500K minimum for Currenex and FXall.

    Although, don't quote me on this as I need to learn more, I believe they have some option where they are pumping the feeds from Currenex into their in house platform. However, you may need more that the ususal minimum for that.

    Considering my account size their multi liquidity source price aggregation engine on the in house platform is more that enough for me. But I'm still curious.
  50. Currenex 160 mio 3 pips spread eur/usd/....bs...you obviously been looking at a demo..if thats the case please post a screen dump...

    Remember Currenex are the software not the broker...so nice liquidity at one broker does not equate to nice liquidity at another...and minimums can change depending on where you go..
  51. Not a good time to have done it as a long weekend in Europe and so desks winding down and did the save just after the Chicago figures.

    But hope it gives you an idea of spreads and volumes.

    Perhaps a small apology might be forthcoming iceberg!
  52. Apologies file in wrong format.

    second attempt -it is not a demo account but have blanked out my account details.