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    Forums ›› Technically Speaking ›› Strategy (System) Design ›› Damn you, out of sample trades!  


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logic_man
 

Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 1489

 

08-22-12 08:18 PM

It always seems to happen right after you either optimize or find something new, that the first batch of trades sucks.

I rolled out a "scalping" system this week which during backtest had over 90% wins and an average trade expectancy of ~$200/contract.

So, what happens? I have an 83% win rate through the first 18 trades and an average expectancy of -$32/contract per trade. The reason for the negative expectancy is that it's deliberately designed to have very few, but big, losing trades. I can probably work on optimizing the exits, but since I had such good results in the backtest, it wasn't of major concern.

To make matters even more annoying, I got stopped out by a single tick on a CL trade right before the Fed minutes, when the move right after the Fed minutes would have made that a winner. In my backtesting, CL hadn't had a losing trade in a month and now it's had two in week of live trading.

Whoever says this crap is easy is kidding themselves.

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hoodooman
 

Registered: Jun 2003
Posts: 4431

 

08-22-12 08:22 PM

It won't be the first time.

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Jack_Larkin
 

Registered: Jun 2011
Posts: 492

 

08-22-12 08:35 PM

sounds more like curve fitting...

how many years back did you test?

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logic_man
 

Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 1489

 

08-22-12 08:42 PM


Quote from Jack_Larkin:

sounds more like curve fitting...

how many years back did you test?



I'd say it was curve fitting if it weren't for the fact that the risk-reward ratio is so skewed toward large risks (and hence large losses), so it's not as if it is some kind of perfect system. Otherwise, I would never expect to see anything with a 90% win rate. There is some optimization as regards to trade selection, but these are very objective. For example, if I get a signal in the opposite direction of a signal that's already in effect, I ignore that second signal because I know from my data that those second signals are more likely to fail to reach the profit target and get stopped out. I don't consider that curve fitting to use that as a filter. So, completely unoptimized, the expectancy is $43/contract per trade and the win rate is in the mid-70% range. I've got about 700 trades in my sample from 3 markets for the past 6 months to a year. I have also worked with this entry method for nearly 3 years now and know from that that there has always been a high win rate for this particular type of trade.

Also, if it were curve-fitting, I wouldn't expect to have an 83% win rate, even on a sample of just 18 trades. If it were truly a coin-flip entry method at its base, the odds of 15 wins in 18 trades would be on the order of less than 0.5%.

It's just a really good entry and profit target selection method. The only problem is that it does rely on these huge win rates because the losses are 3-4X the size of the average winner.

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NoDoji
 

Registered: May 2008
Posts: 8107

 

08-22-12 08:56 PM


Quote from logic_man:

In my backtesting, CL hadn't had a losing trade in a month and now it's had two in week of live trading.



I learned many lessons about CL during my first year of trading it and posted a critical conclusion that you're probably not accounting for:


Quote from NoDoji:

CL lives in a cave far from civilization.



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Random.Capital
 

Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 3848

 

08-22-12 09:00 PM


Quote from Jack_Larkin:

sounds more like curve fitting...



Yes, to me, too.

Is this "scalping" happening from a colo, or from a consumer-class connection?

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