HOME FORUMS BROKERS SOFTWARE BOOKS CONTACT US
Elite Trader Your Account  •  Become a Member  •  Help  •  Search    
    Forums ›› Main ›› Economics ›› The end of private ownership in the means of production  


Post A Reply
    Page 1 of 14:   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10     Last Page »
Matt Houston
 

Registered: Apr 2009
Posts: 85

 

07-29-12 06:58 PM

Hi,

This is something that has been niggling me, it's not really trading related except maybe it impacts how much longer financial markets may actually exist.

I apologise for the Marxist sounding terminology in advance.

The way I see it, the majority of people on this planet do not own property, or any of the means of production, they only have their labour to sell in order to purchase the things they need to survive.

If I look back at the past 20 years, how far technology has progressed, I can't help wondering how long it will be until the vast majority of jobs can be done by machines. Sure more high tech job will be created along the way, but will they be enough to absorb the mass of unemployed checkout clerks, train drivers, data entry processors, various manufacturing jobs etc. Can most of these people even be retrained to do highly skilled jobs?

So once we get to a stage where most jobs are mechanised I foresee a small class of comfortable property owners (assuming the government continues to protect property rights through this process) and everybody else with no market for their labour, and not even property on which to make a subsistence living. Sure maybe the welfare state will increase massively, but then isn't it logical with the majority of people eking out a living however they can and a small property owning class living in relative luxury some sort of revolution is inevitable and the collectivisation of the means of production the logical conclusion.

Or maybe it will be a case of evolution rather than revolution, with the state just slowly enlarging and taking up the slack, eventually crowding out any form of free enterprise. Maybe before this process even concludes the "Capitalists" will find they don't have a big enough market for the products they produce and give their factories up to "Democratisation".

Maybe the process is even more advanced than I realise and certain interests, e.g. labour unions, are putting up resistance.

What do you think?

    Edit/Delete Quote Complain
Matt Houston
 

Registered: Apr 2009
Posts: 85

 

07-29-12 07:07 PM

Just to clarify I see State Socialism as the road to serfdom and am not a proponent, but am in the uncomfortable position of seeing it as inevitable.

    Edit/Delete Quote Complain
Wide Tailz
 

Registered: Sep 2011
Posts: 1515

 

07-29-12 07:20 PM

The poorest races have the highest birth rates. The richest races are also some of the most prude.

Do you see the logic in not having offspring until you own at least some means of production (an education in the mechanization of the means of production, for starters)?

    Edit/Delete Quote Complain
Matt Houston
 

Registered: Apr 2009
Posts: 85

 

07-29-12 07:22 PM


Quote from Wide Tailz:

The poorest races have the highest birth rates. The richest races are also some of the most prude.

Do you see the logic in not having offspring until you own at least some means of production (an education in the mechanization of the means of production, for starters)?



Well I do, but I can't speak for the rest of the 6 billion people on this planet

    Edit/Delete Quote Complain
Matt Houston
 

Registered: Apr 2009
Posts: 85

 

07-29-12 07:38 PM


Quote from Matt Houston:

Well I do, but I can't speak for the rest of the 6 billion people on this planet



Oops, just checked and the Earth's human populations seems to have crept up another billion without me noticing.

    Edit/Delete Quote Complain
logic_man
 

Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 1489

 

07-29-12 08:55 PM


Quote from Matt Houston:

Hi,

This is something that has been niggling me, it's not really trading related except maybe it impacts how much longer financial markets may actually exist.

I apologise for the Marxist sounding terminology in advance.

The way I see it, the majority of people on this planet do not own property, or any of the means of production, they only have their labour to sell in order to purchase the things they need to survive.

If I look back at the past 20 years, how far technology has progressed, I can't help wondering how long it will be until the vast majority of jobs can be done by machines. Sure more high tech job will be created along the way, but will they be enough to absorb the mass of unemployed checkout clerks, train drivers, data entry processors, various manufacturing jobs etc. Can most of these people even be retrained to do highly skilled jobs?

So once we get to a stage where most jobs are mechanised I foresee a small class of comfortable property owners (assuming the government continues to protect property rights through this process) and everybody else with no market for their labour, and not even property on which to make a subsistence living. Sure maybe the welfare state will increase massively, but then isn't it logical with the majority of people eking out a living however they can and a small property owning class living in relative luxury some sort of revolution is inevitable and the collectivisation of the means of production the logical conclusion.

Or maybe it will be a case of evolution rather than revolution, with the state just slowly enlarging and taking up the slack, eventually crowding out any form of free enterprise. Maybe before this process even concludes the "Capitalists" will find they don't have a big enough market for the products they produce and give their factories up to "Democratisation".

Maybe the process is even more advanced than I realise and certain interests, e.g. labour unions, are putting up resistance.

What do you think?



Check out a book called "The Lights in the Tunnel" by Martin Ford, who has a pretty detailed take on this question.

My guess is that there will end up being some sort of minimum annual income provided to anyone who cannot find work due to machine displacement (at least in the developed world) in exchange for limited or no right to reproduce. Although I think that it is wrong to take from some to subsidize others, it happens. The primary problem is not so much supporting that first generation of individuals who get those subsidies, it's supporting the geometric growth of their offspring. Cut off that geometric growth and the system becomes more sustainable. Reversible birth control devices ought to do the trick, so that if someone then decides to pursue work again and forgo the guaranteed income, they can reproduce, if they choose. But, if they then go back to the guaranteed income option, the income is not raised solely because that person now has children.

    Edit/Delete Quote Complain
    Page 1 of 14:   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10     Last Page »
Post A Reply


Receive an email whenever a new post is added to this thread by subscribing to it.
 
Rate This Thread:

Forum Jump:
 

 

   Conduct Rules  -  Privacy Policy  -  Day Trader -  Day Trader Forum -  Best Trading Software -  Sitemap Copyright © 2013, Elite Trader. All rights reserved.    
 
WHILE YOU'RE HERE, TAKE A MINUTE TO VISIT SOME OF OUR SPONSORS:
Advantage Futures
Futures Brokerage & Clearing
AMP Global Clearing
Futures and FX Trading
Bright Trading
Professional Equities Trading
CTS
Futures Trading Software
DaytradingBias.com
Professional Trading Analytics
ECHOtrade
Professional Trading Firm
eSignal
Trading Software Provider
FXCM
Forex Trading Services
Global Futures
Futures, Options & FX Trading
Interactive Brokers
Pro Gateway to World Markets
JC Trading Group
Direct Access Trading
MB Trading
Direct Access Trading
MultiCharts
Trading Software Provider
NinjaTrader
Trading Software Provider
OANDA
Currency Trading
optionshouse
Option Trading & Education
Rithmic
Futures Trade Execution Platform
SpeedTrader
Direct Access Trading
SpreadProfessor
Spread Trading Instruction
thinkorswim by TD Ameritrade
Direct Access TradingAdvertisement
TradersStudio
System Building & Backtesting
Trading Technologies
Trading Software Provider
Trend Following
Trading Systems Provider