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bone
ET Sponsor

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 4336

 

06-17-13 03:59 PM


Quote from Handle123:

I started to get much more involved into trading spreads in January, and I have to say it is much easier to profit by trading those than me trying to trend trade outright positions in short term durations. So maybe there is somthing that can give one a little edge in trading outright position in the NOB. But it still comes down to have a solid backtested trading plan, one can't get around this.




1. Many of my clients come to me as shorter term, higher frequency scalpers and day traders who are quite frankly frustrated trying to compete against the bots with a manual mouse and point-and-click DOMs. They are desperately looking for more consistency.

2. You are correct about a solid trading plan. I provide a model that was expressly designed by me for spread trades - it took about 20 years to refine. At the time of trade entry, we also set the profit target and the stop-loss level.

3. Most of my clients are paying non-member rates, so generally speaking we are not particularly sensitive to commissions given our trade holding timeframes and targeting. If I thought that the NOB was a much better set-up than the Bobl-Bund, I would take the NOB and not think twice about the commissions.

4. We like to do some synthetic intra market interest rates spreads as well. Many combinations possible there, and the exchanges give us a generous SPAN overnight margin credit. One example might be a CBOT Two Year Note versus GE U5.

__________________
Spread, Relative Value, and Correlation Trading Instruction from a Professional Trader. The only thing that matters are Clients making money IN LIVE MARKETS. Why not interview my clients for yourself on an independent basis. My typical client is an outright directional trader looking to pick up an industry-recognized specialty technique. http://www.spreadprofessor.com

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bighog
 

Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 2204

 

06-18-13 11:28 AM

It is a fallacy to believe spread trading will not produce just as many losses to capital than directional trading. The truth is spread trading can produce more and faster losses.

In spread trades, BOTH legs of the trade can go the wrong direction and blow the intended narrowing/widening of the position to hell real fast.

Never forget, if the spread is placed as a spread trade and Not lifted as a spread (lifting legs different times) you will get charged for double commissions than intended and now stand a swell chance to be wrong in TWO directional trades.

BEWARE of believing there are safe ways to play in a game of chance............the more one try's to avoid risk, the more risk has a way of biting you in the ass..........

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bone
ET Sponsor

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 4336

 

06-18-13 06:09 PM


Quote from bighog:

It is a fallacy to believe spread trading will not produce just as many losses to capital than directional trading. The truth is spread trading can produce more and faster losses.

In spread trades, BOTH legs of the trade can go the wrong direction and blow the intended narrowing/widening of the position to hell real fast.

Never forget, if the spread is placed as a spread trade and Not lifted as a spread (lifting legs different times) you will get charged for double commissions than intended and now stand a swell chance to be wrong in TWO directional trades.



1. We deal with highly correlated instruments, and our experiences simply do not agree with your observations. There is no way that an intra market spread trade in the same instrument will produce more or faster losses than the flat price front month instrument. And I have seen only a handful of times in 21 years of trading where an intra market spread had a larger daily trading range than the flat price front month instrument. Incredibly rare event.

2. The trading exchange clearing houses say you are wrong. Look at the incredible SPAN initial margin credits they give for both inter and intra market spreads for highly correlated instruments. The CME will give you an 80 % margin credit for the ES vs YM, and 75% for ES vs NQ. The initial margin for CL outright is $4510. The initial margin for Aug CL vs Sept CL 1:1 is $165. The SPAN margin credit for CL vs RBOB is 80%. The initial SPAN margin requirement for a CL condor Q-U-X-Z is $82.

The initial SPAN margin requirement for an outright ZF is $743. For a 5:3 ratio spread ZF vs ZN ( FiT ) the exchange gives you a SPAN margin credit of 80 %.

SPAN is a historical volatility risk tool, and it says that you are flat wrong about the risk associated with spreads that are correctly executed and hedged.

If someone is stupid enough to leave naked legs open, then you are correct in terms of risk. But naked open legs are flat price positions and are not spread trades.

3. You are going to pay the same exchange and clearing fees on a spread whether you leg it manually or you do an exchange supported spread.

__________________
Spread, Relative Value, and Correlation Trading Instruction from a Professional Trader. The only thing that matters are Clients making money IN LIVE MARKETS. Why not interview my clients for yourself on an independent basis. My typical client is an outright directional trader looking to pick up an industry-recognized specialty technique. http://www.spreadprofessor.com

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