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Free Thinker
Registered: Nov 1999
Posts: 14316 |
09-06-12 09:42 PM
Quote from BSAM:
No.
And, pretty soon, it won't be in the USA, at the rate we are going.
So, what's your point?
think just a little bit. it is the safety and security and infrastructure that society builds that make it valuable.
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BSAM
Registered: Sep 1999
Posts: 8392 |
09-06-12 09:43 PM
Quote from Free Thinker:
think just a little bit. it is the safety and security and infrastructure that society builds that make it valuable.
Yeah, I know what you're trying to say.
So, are you also saying that the policies and tactics of the Democrats are further ensuring our security and property rights?
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peilthetraveler
Registered: Jun 2005
Posts: 7073 |
09-06-12 11:03 PM
Quote from Free Thinker:
in the you republican "you didnt build it" canard something to consider:
Thomas Pain:
"Personal property is the effect of society; and it is as impossible
for an individual to acquire personal property without the aid of
society, as it is for him to make land originally.
Separate an individual from society, and give him an island or a
continent to possess, and he cannot acquire personal property. He cannot
be rich. So inseparably are the means connected with the end, in all
cases, that where the former do not exist the latter cannot be obtained.
All accumulation, therefore, of personal property, beyond what a man's
own hands produce, is derived to him by living in society; and he owes
on every principle of justice, of gratitude, and of civilization, a part
of that accumulation back again to society from whence the whole came."
So what you are saying, is that if i lived on an island and there was nobody around, and then I went around the island gathered materials and built a house, I didnt acquire that house? If I made my own clothes from the plants on the island, do I still not own those clothes? If those items are not my personal property, whose personal property is it? And what about my food. If i go fishing, isnt that fish mine? As in MY personal property? There is nobody to say it isnt, right?
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tomdavis
Registered: Apr 2009
Posts: 1849 |
09-06-12 11:57 PM
Quote from Free Thinker:
in the you republican "you didnt build it" canard something to consider:
Thomas Pain:
"Personal property is the effect of society; and it is as impossible
for an individual to acquire personal property without the aid of
society, as it is for him to make land originally.
Separate an individual from society, and give him an island or a
continent to possess, and he cannot acquire personal property. He cannot
be rich. So inseparably are the means connected with the end, in all
cases, that where the former do not exist the latter cannot be obtained.
All accumulation, therefore, of personal property, beyond what a man's
own hands produce, is derived to him by living in society; and he owes
on every principle of justice, of gratitude, and of civilization, a part
of that accumulation back again to society from whence the whole came."
Thomas Paine's "Agrarian Justice" was an interesting piece of work in that it was more specific than many of his other papers. He proposed an individual/societal relationship that wasn't an all-or-nothing proposition. Paine felt that society contributed a measurable amount to an individual's success and therefore an individual owed a specific percentage in return. This was a topic that he often touched upon, but was rarely so specific as he was in this soliloquy. (I refer to it as such, because it's often unclear as to whom Paine was speaking, and it was proposed that his writing style was fashioned after the dramatic device that was so prevalent during his time.)
Irrespective of style, the question becomes not one of "with-or-without," but rather of "how much?"
Paine suggests that individuals, upon their death, pay 10% (one tenth of accumulated wealth) to give back to society that which society had contributed.
Personally, I don't mind paying taxes that reflect what society contributes to my success. Ten percent of my accumulated wealth payable upon my death sounds about right.
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mrbill
Registered: Jun 2012
Posts: 1492 |
09-07-12 02:09 AM
Quote from CaptainObvious:
You don't own anything you have to pay taxes on, and yes, the g-man can kick down your door anytime he likes, and take whatever he likes.
That said, the repubs were wrong to take the presidents words out of context. We all know what he meant.
Of course they did, and thanks for saying that. It is kind of a DUH moment, so obvious.
We at least have courts to keep others from taking our property away. I can attest tot that form instances over they years.
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mrbill
Registered: Jun 2012
Posts: 1492 |
09-07-12 02:13 AM
Quote from peilthetraveler:
So what you are saying, is that if i lived on an island and there was nobody around, and then I went around the island gathered materials and built a house, I didnt acquire that house? If I made my own clothes from the plants on the island, do I still not own those clothes? If those items are not my personal property, whose personal property is it? And what about my food. If i go fishing, isnt that fish mine? As in MY personal property? There is nobody to say it isnt, right?
What is being said, is that no matter what you did to build the house on some island, that someone could come along and take it from you much easier if there were no society or infrastructure and laws in place. Call the cops, go to court, can't do that if there is no Society, right?
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