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YM versus ES fallacy
Many have "said newbies should start with the YM"...I disagree, here is why:
1-more volume on ES, better fills
2-less erratic or volatile
3-less whiplash spikes
4-easier to psychologically handle "draw downs" as does not move as "large" in numbers as the YM
...any other thoughts?...thanks for your insights in advance!!!
Here are our thoughts.
http://www.puretick.com/faq.html#YM
I think the YM is great for noobs or pros. Remember the ES per tick is 12.50 as opposed to 5.00$ for the ym. It seems like you some people want the ES becuase of the 12.50 but they don't realize the can lose more. The market move the same and you can get good at the ym first and formost and not have as much risk as the ES. Then is your not satisfied you can always take more size in the ym once you get consistent and make good money with not as much risk. The heavy volume in the ES is getting to the point where it makes it hard to trade because of waiting for your fill forever, so its not for the impatient noob who might panic and take out casue they didnt want to wait. I have been trading a while and I trade the ER2 and the YM. I like them both and I can make money on both but when I do size( casue of doubling down, which is my vice) I get hurt a lot less in the YM than in the er2
depends on ur setups imo, I get out before I subject my self to a loss like the one shown on spectra's clip. YM makes sense for lower volume traders, but if ur trading 60+ contracts than YM is gonna loose it's appeal.
I can agree with that. I usually avg up or down to about 50 and then try to piece out but if I have to trade out then it gets a little nasty in the ym, as well as the er2. But I can see that in the es it would be definatley easier with that size but If i am scalping 10 cars at a time here and there personally and honestly I dont have the patience for the size in the es
I wonder why no one has mentioned NQ.
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I never even looked to trade that at all maybe I will take a look at it and see what its like, what are your thoughts, is it 6$ per tick?
Quote from STEERAM:
I never even looked to trade that at all maybe I will take a look at it and see what its like, what are your thoughts, is it 6$ per tick?
__________________
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Does it swing with the volatility of the ER2.
No.. nothing does.. ER2 best bang for buck in town
Quote from STEERAM:
Does it swing with the volatility of the ER2.
yes I like the er2 for that, but the moves where it pops for no reason a few points pisses me off. I am trying to figure out how to manage those
I don't follow ER2. From what I have read here, it seems that ER2 has more volatility, but you would do best to check for yourself. I like NQ better than ES due to smaller tick size and what I think is generally better volatility. Further, the NQ's tick size is proportionate to the larger, pit-traded contract, unlike ES's tick size which is proportionately larger. Therefore, I think that ES traders may be at a relative disadvantage to pit traders who can arb ES and SP in a way that pit traders cannot arb ND and NQ. Of course, this is all over my head. I just know that I don't like giving someone any more of an upper hand than necessary.
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I am going to try NQ tomorrow and see how it goes. Is there anything particluar you look for in the nq? I know what I look fro in the er2 but I am sure it wont translate to the nq
Quote from Thunderdog:
I wonder why no one has mentioned NQ.
Quote from STEERAM:
I am going to try NQ tomorrow and see how it goes. Is there anything particluar you look for in the nq? I know what I look fro in the er2 but I am sure it wont translate to the nq
__________________
I'm handing you no blarney
Maybe I will hop on the sim tomorrow
YM's biggest problem is lack of native stop limit orders. As a result you can get massive slippage on breakouts. Not very friendly for swing or position traders.
ER2 is the best bang for the buck as mentioned.
NQ will get better once it recovers from the tech bubble.
ES - the tick is too wide due to internal CME politics (read link below). All breakouts are faded by the pit arbs due to the monopoly/privledge they gave themselves with a .10 tick size on the pit contract and a .25 tick size on the ES contract. This increases risk for other traders and can lead to choppiness.
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...=6&pagenumber=6
All can be traded. Pick your poison.
Quote from Thunderdog:
I don't follow ER2. From what I have read here, it seems that ER2 has more volatility, but you would do best to check for yourself. I like NQ better than ES due to smaller tick size and what I think is generally better volatility. Further, the NQ's tick size is proportionate to the larger, pit-traded contract, unlike ES's tick size which is proportionately larger. Therefore, I think that ES traders may be at a relative disadvantage to pit traders who can arb ES and SP in a way that pit traders cannot arb ND and NQ. Of course, this is all over my head. I just know that I don't like giving someone any more of an upper hand than necessary.
agree ER2 is the BEST for tight spread .10 and $100 per point..no other emini comes close
Importance of tick compared to daily range( the most important thing for us ):
- ER2
- EMD
- ES
- NQ
-YM
E mini MSCI EAFE will probably gain volume in the near future.
Re: YM versus ES fallacy
[QUOTE]Quote from increasenow:
1-more volume on ES, better fills
More volume but the worse fills out of all 4 index's IMO. Has to trade through your price on entry and exit if using limits.. thats 2 ticks of slippage per trade.
Re: YM versus ES fallacy
Quote from increasenow:
Many have "said newbies should start with the YM"...I disagree, here is why:
1-more volume on ES, better fills
2-less erratic or volatile
3-less whiplash spikes
4-easier to psychologically handle "draw downs" as does not move as "large" in numbers as the YM
...any other thoughts?...thanks for your insights in advance!!!
__________________
"Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap, but by the seeds you plant."--Robert Louis Stevenson
Quote from erToo:
YM's biggest problem is lack of native stop limit orders. As a result you can get massive slippage on breakouts. Not very friendly for swing or position traders.
ER2 is the best bang for the buck as mentioned.
NQ will get better once it recovers from the tech bubble.
ES - the tick is too wide due to internal CME politics (read link below). All breakouts are faded by the pit arbs due to the monopoly/privledge they gave themselves with a .10 tick size on the pit contract and a .25 tick size on the ES contract. This increases risk for other traders and can lead to choppiness.
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...=6&pagenumber=6
All can be traded. Pick your poison.
__________________
I'm handing you no blarney
The RUT tick is .10 vs .05 for the pit. ES tick is .25 vs. .10 for pit.
The tick differential is wider for the ES/SP and the SP pit has historically been more active than the Russell pit.
Arbs can make more on the ES/SP and they have more confidence they can unload the other side in the pit because of its greater liquidity.
With a wider built-in profit they can then take more chances fading short term moves (and making the ES choppier).
With the Russell its probably only profitable to arb when things get truly out of whack.
All this being said. Trade whatever instrument you think you can make money on. I'm just trying to embarrass the CME into doing the right thing on tick size while they are under the regulators scrutiny for their merger with the CBOT.
Now is the time to contact the CFTC if you desire . . .
http://www.cftc.gov/cftc/cftccontac...age=contactstab
Quote from Thunderdog:
I have a question for you. Your hyperlinked reference to political strength in the pits is interesting and ostensibly makes sense to me. Nevertheless, I note that ER2's tick size is proportionately larger than that of its pit traded counterpart, not unlike the ES/SP relationship. Therefore, what would prevent its pit traders from engaging in the very same activities that SP pit traders do, to the detriment of ES-only traders? There is no denying ER2's volatility, I'm just wondering how I can reconcile your theoretical premise.
Quote from Thunderdog:
Nevertheless, I note that ER2's tick size is proportionately larger than that of its pit traded counterpart, not unlike the ES/SP relationship. Therefore, what would prevent its pit traders from engaging in the very same activities that SP pit traders do, to the detriment of ES-only traders? There is no denying ER2's volatility, I'm just wondering how I can reconcile your theoretical premise.
Quote from erToo:
The RUT tick is .10 vs .05 for the pit. ES tick is .25 vs. .10 for pit.
The tick differential is wider for the ES/SP and the SP pit has historically been more active than the Russell pit.
Arbs can make more on the ES/SP and they have more confidence they can unload the other side in the pit because of its greater liquidity.
With a wider built-in profit they can then take more chances fading short term moves (and making the ES choppier).
With the Russell its probably only profitable to arb when things get truly out of whack.
All this being said. Trade whatever instrument you think you can make money on. I'm just trying to embarrass the CME into doing the right thing on tick size while they are under the regulators scrutiny for their merger with the CBOT.
Now is the time to contact the CFTC if you desire . . .
http://www.cftc.gov/cftc/cftccontac...age=contactstab
__________________
I'm handing you no blarney
Quote from originalskunk:
There might not be enough volume and OI in the Russell 2K pit to play too many games
http://www.cme.com/trading/dta/del/...ProductType=idx
652 contracts total today
__________________
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Hey all,
WOW!...look at this...the least risky emini to trade is the...)drum roll please 
)...the NQ emini Nasdaq...let me explain...I am basing this off the ATR average true range per day and potential loss of 1 contract traded per day...
Okay here we go:
MOST RISKY: ER2...ATR is 10.67 and (greatest)loss would be $1,067
VERY RISKY: ES...ATR is 11.63 and (greatest) loss would be $581.50
RISKY: YM...ATR is 98 and (greatest) loss would be $490.00
LEAST RISKY: NQ...ATR is 21.39 and (greatest) loss would be $427.80
...we'll very interesting...what do you think?....very surprising...yes, very surprising...I would really take this to heart as you are beginning to trade emini's...of course this is my opinion...what do all of you think???
Exactly! Newbies should be concerned with losing less while learning, not making more.
Cajun
Quote from STEERAM:
I think the YM is great for noobs or pros. Remember the ES per tick is 12.50 as opposed to 5.00$ for the ym. It seems like you some people want the ES becuase of the 12.50 but they don't realize the can lose more.
YM is gaining amazing popularity!
I like the YM and I really don't even have a good reason why other than it works for me.
Quote from maxpi:
I like the YM and I really don't even have a good reason why other than it works for me.
the BIG boys...ES and ER2
I second Maxpi's opinion -- I just like it better too. The YM's got a nice feel to it. I also like the OEX at market extremes (used on rare occassions) to catch a turn by going the other way. I only use the OEX when its really stretched out one way. DIA and SPY are nice for longer term positions.
I prefer ES premarket, better spread than YM.
And YM during market hours because it trades a bit smoother and a bit lower commissions
YM could reach 300,000 per day traded
Hehe, so far nobody mentioned that the ES is about 20% more volatile than the YM. So if you are a swingtrader, you get a better move out of ES.....
Well.. That could be a good thing or a bad thing. I spent 20 minutes trying to show a user the error of his ways today. He was using a 6 pt stop the YM in this current market. The more voliatle the market, the more you can lose too. You need to start with a market like the YM and then move up to the ES and then finally something like the ER2..
To be honest, Most of our traders should be on a simulator.
Geoff
Quote from Pekelo:
Hehe, so far nobody mentioned that the ES is about 20% more volatile than the YM. So if you are a swingtrader, you get a better move out of ES.....
I have NEVER understood the rational that the YM is better for beginners because it's only $5 per tick. That makes no sense to me because it moves so many more ticks at a time because of how large the index is relative to the others.
think about it......the YM trades at almost 10 times the value of the ES so a 1pt move in ES is equal to a 10 pt move in the YM or $50 for the move. It's the same, it's not YM being worth $5 and ES being worth $12.50.
one can argue other reasons why the YM may or may not be better suited for beginners but I've read 100 times the thing about it only being $5 per tick and somehow therefor less risk. This just makes no sense to me. It's the same.
Main thing on that, is there is less slippage when using market orders. If your using limits then your golden.
It all boils down to one ability to trade. If you can do it then it really does not matter. If you cannot, the market, any market will bleed you to death.
Why do you think the .25 tick is making the ES harder to 'trade'.
When stocks went to penny spreads, was it easier or harder to make $.
I rest my case.
__________________
"Those that know ain't saying, and those saying don't know." - E. A. Neumann
A bear since 1958 and proud of it.
Quote from erToo:
YM's biggest problem is lack of native stop limit orders. As a result you can get massive slippage on breakouts. Not very friendly for swing or position traders.
ER2 is the best bang for the buck as mentioned.
NQ will get better once it recovers from the tech bubble.
ES - the tick is too wide due to internal CME politics (read link below). All breakouts are faded by the pit arbs due to the monopoly/privledge they gave themselves with a .10 tick size on the pit contract and a .25 tick size on the ES contract. This increases risk for other traders and can lead to choppiness.
Re: YM versus ES fallacy
Quote from increasenow:
Many have "said newbies should start with the YM"...
Last I heard CBOT has native stops (market), but not native stop limit orders. So if your market stop is hit and the market is moving you may get 3-6 tick slippage. Perhaps someone who has definitive information on this could clarify the issue.
Quote from buzzy2:
e-CBOT has native stops since last year or so. Works great.
ER2 has best bang for the buck for margin, but it's so jumpy, you have to allow wider stops so its risk/reward ratio is not much better (if at all) than ES or YM.
Quote from erToo:
Last I heard CBOT has native stops (market), but not native stop limit orders. So if your market stop is hit and the market is moving you may get 3-6 tick slippage. Perhaps someone who has definitive information on this could clarify the issue.
Quote from saxon22:
It all boils down to one ability to trade. If you can do it then it really does not matter. If you cannot, the market, any market will bleed you to death.
any other input on this issue...i am currently trying to watch these markets and find which one fits for me...
__________________
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Failure is never final
Find the lowest common denominator of the largest participants. It is the es..
Re: YM versus ES fallacy
Ok I'll buy 1-3 but I'm not sure what you mean on #4. The ES is $15/tick and the YM is $5 a tick. Isn't $15 > $5?
Caj
Quote from increasenow:
4-easier to psychologically handle "draw downs" as does not move as "large" in numbers as the YM
...any other thoughts?...thanks for your insights in advance!!!
Re: Re: YM versus ES fallacy
Quote from Spectra:
Ok I'll buy 1-3 but I'm not sure what you mean on #4. The ES is $15/tick and the YM is $5 a tick. Isn't $15 > $5?
Caj
Isn't the ER2 leaving the CME soon? I wonder how that will affect volume.
Anyone trade the Mini Russel with ICE yet?
I don't mean to change the scope of the discussion too much ,but if one were considering trading options primarily using verticals and flys any comments about which of these might be the most attractive with respect to fills and slippage.Thanks
Not sure if this has been mentioned yet but there seems to be a lot of comparing ES tick size vs YM ticks size as if that is comparing risk. The tick size alone is irrelevant.
If you want to compare the risk you need to compare
(YM tick value X ATR) vs (ES tick value X ATR)
Liquidity is your friend.
If you guys take a look at the daily move of the YM, NQ and ES you will see that on average the return (or loss) is about the same. So in my opinion it doesn't matter what you trade. YM, NQ or ES.
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