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-- Desperation (http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=74693)
Desperation
Here’s my (sob) story. I’ll try to keep it short (but not so sweet). Where do I begin?
Many years ago, I hooked myself on trading through (groan) Ken Roberts. I shelled out the $195 for his course, opened an account, made some, lost some, etc. After a while I realized I would need more than KR to make consistent money in this game. This was before online electronic trading became the norm.
[As an aside, I remember one day making an amazing discovery. Looking at charts, I realized that, almost without exception, the S&P 500 Index futures would open at or very close to their close. (This was before the days of ES.) Now I knew it often moved around overnight, which meant (to me) that it must always revert to its closing price just before the open of regular market hours. Brilliant. Just flip a coin, go long or short, set a profit target of, say, 4 points ($2,000). If you get hit, great. If the market goes against you in the Globex overnight, just wait until the open and exit a breakeven. I discussed my ‘discovery’ with my broker, and he thought it sounded very good. I tried it one night, and (after numerous late night calls to my broker), made my 4 points! The next day, my broker called me up and told me he discussed my ‘strategy’ with a colleague, and he thought that the opening price you see on the charts is the open of the Globex session (which it was)! Dumb money.]
At any rate, my trading, such as it is, went through numerous iterations, from buying systems that spit out signals through SuperCharts (overleveraged and blew myself out), to moving average crossovers, to taking systems I read about in Stocks and Commodities and trying to trade them, and everything in between. This was a hobby for me. I was gainfully employed, and supporting my family, but I dreamed of one day trading my way to riches.
At some point I took a break from trading (I missed the 1998-2000 bubble) but eventually decided to try my hand at the online, self-serve version. I started off by trying to catch the bottoms of the falling markets of 2001 etc. and lost a bunch. I got killed in the Treasury Bond slaughter of 2002 or 2003. It took me a long time, and lots of money, to decide I preferred sticking with the trend. During this time, I also took some training, from two gents whom I met here on ET – Scott Iverson who sells his interpretation of Don Hall’s Pyrapoint (and claims its profitable for him), and Bill Schamp who does the trend-is-your-friend HH’s and LL’s of Logic trading. I believe they’re both still around. Perhaps they both make tons of money trading their methods. Perhaps they both made tons of money selling their methods. Thus far, I have not. (I do not deny that the fault may lie in me and my lack of discipline to follow through with their methods 100 %. That’s certainly what they’d say.)
Without going into all the gory details, I lost plenty of money over the years. Generally, it would go like this. 1) Refund account after previous blowout. 2) Trade cautiously – we’re making a new start after all. 3) Make some money. 4) Continue to trade cautiously. 5) Make some more money (though usually there were a few ‘tightrope’ trades somewhere along the line that almost took me back to breakeven or worse). 6) At some point, get into a trade with no stop, have it go against you, add to position, blowout substantial % of your account or all of it. 7) Return to step 1 with new good feelings. I’d have to review my old records, which I have no desire to do, but I doubt that I ever went for a six month period without blowing out an account. I also can’t think of a single instance where I lost money off the bat; I always started off making money (this is probably what made me keep trying). Sometimes I was lucky enough to take some money out beforehand; often I wasn’t. To my good fortune, much of what I lost was money I had taken from the market, but when all’s said and done, I was and am still a huge net loser.
At some point, due to a change in location, I found myself without a job, some savings (not that much), and a family to support. I was not fired from my previous job, but we made the decision to move, and that involved me leaving my job (which I probably would have left anyway as I no longer felt capable of doing it). My wife and I made the decision that, after so many years of trading part-time, and without a viable source of income, the time had come for me to trade full time. At the time I had about $40k in my account (most of it, again, was the market’s money, at least at that stage). Before we even moved, though, I made some idiotic trade and basically blew out my account, which made me reconsider moving. But by then the wheels were already in motion, and we followed through with the move. Last summer I began trading (futures) with the grand total of $8,000 in my account. (Can’t say I’m not an optimist.) I actually managed to run that up to about $40k, taking out my original $8k along the way, and then, over the course of a week or 2, I blew it out. Since then, the pattern has repeated itself more or less along the same lines. I’ve bored you more than enough with extra details, so let me cut to the chase.
I’ve been an ET lurker/contributor (though not under this name obviously) since 2001. I’ve gained a ton from these boards, and am now soliciting your advice / help. Wages in our current place of residence are such that I am at a loss as to how to support my family with a ‘real job.’ I will have to take one short-term, as my confidence right now is shot, and I am in no position to put our money at risk. That will keep food on the table, but, barring some miracle, will not support us long term. Wages here are simply very low, even if I were to by some miracle land some great position. Were it not for this, I think I would have long declared defeat in trading, which I may still have to do. But that’s what keep me going. Personality wise, I feel I have the right temperament to trade: I am not overly scared of risk, have no problem pulling the trigger, am emotionally stable, and I have no problem letting my good trades ride (perhaps I sometimes let them ride too long). I simply feel I don’t have, even after all these years, a viable strategy, other than my ability to ‘read the tape,’ for whatever its worth.
Here are my thoughts:
I need a mentor. I believe much of my failure, and present lack of confidence, is due to never truly having had a ‘real edge.’ There are many people on these boards who say there are no edges, or that the real edge is between your ears. They obviously don’t have one. Neither do I. I am not convinced that in the futures markets real edges exist. In equities, I’m pretty sure they do. This is not to say that it’s impossible to make money trading futures; I know some people do. It’s just much harder. It seems to me that the percentage of consistently profitable futures traders is far smaller than equities.
Even with a job, I can continue to follow the markets; the time zone I live in allows for this.
I’m looking for someone with a true edge, who is consistently profitable, to teach me how to trade equities. I know this is a long-shot, bordering on absurd. At this stage, I’m offering nothing in return, other than the gratitude in my heart, and that of my family. (Which is not to say that I’m unwilling to commit to some profit-sharing once I become profitable.) I’m hoping there’s some great trader out there who feels that this form of honourable ‘charity,’ such as it is, would be a way of giving back some of what he’s received.
I’m a pretty bright guy, and I think I could be enjoyable to teach. I’m willing to work hard. I would fly out to you; or perhaps we could do it through some sort of private online chat. My goal would be to achieve consistent profitability on a simulator, practicing my edge until I’m ready to go live. I would then take some of our savings, and probably trade remote through a prop-firm that offers a minimum of 10-1 leverage.
That’s my request, for what it’s worth.
I’m not going to bore you with any more of this tedious monologue. Please, all you cynics, refrain from posting to my thread. I’m quite aware of the likelihood of someone who has a true edge wanting to share it, all the more with a complete stranger. Have a heart, and don’t beat this dead horse.
If you are one of the rare individuals who has a true, consistent edge, and feel motivated to help this sorry-soul out, I’m a lucky guy. I hope you’ll have the patience to deal with me.
Re: Desperation
You gotta try harder. The Prof has a 99.99999% accurate method. He never loses, much like Mr. Market!
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
Here’s my (sob) story. I’ll try to keep it short (but not so sweet). Where do I begin?
... During this time, I also took some training, from two gents whom I met here on ET – ... Bill Schamp who does the trend-is-your-friend HH’s and LL’s of Logic trading. I believe they’re both still around. Perhaps they both make tons of money trading their methods. Perhaps they both made tons of money selling their methods. Thus far, I have not. (I do not deny that the fault may lie in me and my lack of discipline to follow through with their methods 100 %. That’s certainly what they’d say.)
I am in the same boat as you are. I haven't made any money or nor have I found an edge.
At least I think you're in a better spot than I am in because at least you understand your own shortcomings and is reaching out for help.
I'm not sure that a true 'edge' exists in futures trading. Maybe we've both been barking up the wrong tree.
You're right about understanding my shortcomings though. There's far more I could say, but I'll spare you.
Quote from Ripley:
I am in the same boat as you are. I haven't made any money or nor have I found an edge.
At least I think you're in a better spot than I am in because at least you understand your own shortcomings and is reaching out for help.
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
I'm not sure that a true 'edge' exists in futures trading. Maybe we've both been barking up the wrong tree.
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
Were it not for this, I think I would have long declared defeat in trading, which I may still have to do. But that’s what keep me going. Personality wise, I feel I have the right temperament to trade: I am not overly scared of risk, have no problem pulling the trigger, am emotionally stable, and I have no problem letting my good trades ride (perhaps I sometimes let them ride too long).
"Bill Schamp who does the trend-is-your-friend HH’s and LL’s of Logic trading."
another victim of the good professors gibberish.
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPs_j1EEplI&feature=feedwll&list=WL
Ripley,
I hear what you're saying, and can't deny it. I think a successful trader must walk the tightrope between taking risks, and having a healthy, yet not obsessive fear of them. That's what I meant to say. Having said that, I will admit that you perceptively hit the nail on the proverbial head. Getting cavalier with my trading has haunted me in the past.
Quote from Ripley:
The ONLY edge you can have in Futures trading is being able to get out when the market proves you wrong.
Your personality isn't suited for a trader. You MUST BE scared of risk.. you must run away from it. I think thats what leads you to be loose with your stops. Sometimes, by QUITTING you WIN. I think it is OK to QUIT trying to be a trader. I mean, you can work as a chicken farmer and can do better than 96% of all traders that trade. Trading Chickens, the risk reward are more in your favor you know.. Your goal as a trader must be to exploit favorable risk/reward opportunities. Which just isn't in trading futures.
Re: Desperation
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
I would then take some of our savings, and probably trade remote through a prop-firm that offers a minimum of 10-1 leverage.
Quote from Don Bright:
Come on guys, it seems that we're "overcomplicating" the whole idea of trading for a living again....(bear with me, I'm not "judging" or "scolding" LOL).
I almost hate to say this...but "trading is simple" IT's the Psychology/Mental part is the "hard" part...hard to overcome so many "can'ts" "didn'ts" and my favorite "I tried" ....
The comment about the trader at home trying to make money is true for the most part...there are 15 million or so retail "trading" accounts that have a great number of smart people attempting to trade ...without having been adequately trained...(believe it or not, I'm not trying to sell anyone on our training specifically.
That being said, it does take a good understanding of how things really work, and seeing real traders trading for a time period, to develop a comfort level which is absolutely necessary to becoming a good trader. If you're not comfortable with your exectution choices, strategies, entries/exits...then you will not be able to "pull the trigger"....and, thus, not get the experience to make good money.
Get the basics from someone who can actually back up what they're showing you with track records....then continue the "learning path" with other successful traders....our path is one (basic 3 day, open to public, 4 week "hands on" boot camp" , then perhaps Pairs and Mergers up in British Columbia for example).
Some people will just plain never accept training...prefering to "already know" enough to begin trading...not the smartest move...often times we get people long after they have gone through the long numbered list on a previous post...and we hear "gee, I wish I knew this or that before" etc. And some people insist on blaming others for their lack of success...which is a fundamental flaw, not only in trading, but in all business pursuits, IMO.
Anyway...if anyone is interested in a free overview, and lives in Chicagoland... Rob from PairCo and I will be giving a free set of workshops on August 22. More info: www.stocktrading.com/chicago2006.html
All the best everyone,
Don
(I guess this did end up sounding a bit like an ad...but I firmly believe all the above to be true...and there are other places who train....FNYS for example).
__________________
"The Pursuit of Happyness" --- Chris Gardner
Re: Desperation
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
If you are one of the rare individuals who has a true, consistent edge, and feel motivated to help this sorry-soul out, I’m a lucky guy. I hope you’ll have the patience to deal with me.
Quote from Ripley:
Your personality isn't suited for a trader. You MUST BE scared of risk.. you must run away from it. I think thats what leads you to be loose with your stops.
This is sad.
An unrealizable fantasy for most but clearly it becomes an illness or sick obsession for some where successful trading is utterly and completely beyond the capabilities of such losers.
Just drop it and get a life through a mundane job.
Quote from segv:
You could not be more wrong. Excess returns are not possible without risk, and successful traders have an appetite for it.
-segv
Re: Desperation
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
Here’s my (sob) story. I’ll try to keep it short (but not so sweet). Where do I begin?
Many years ago...
Quote from Cheese:
This is sad.
An unrealizable fantasy for most but clearly it becomes an illness or sick obsession for some where successful trading is utterly and completely beyond the capabilities of such losers.
__________________
"The Pursuit of Happyness" --- Chris Gardner
Re: Re: Desperation
Quote from Tums:
Have you read Van Tharp?
Re: Re: Desperation
Point taken. Strangely, I don't think I would have traded differently if I had $$$ stashed away. I know many people speak about the inability to make rational decisions with the pressure of supporting a family, etc. For me, it was not a factor. My weakness, as I see it, was lack of a quantifiable edge, and the resultant lack of confidence in my trading. I.e., I have (at this point) no confidence for a good reason.
Were I to have a well-defined and quantifiable edge, I believe I could make it work.
Thank you for your reply.
Quote from segv:
You have little chance of succeeding at this venture, so why even try when you are under pressure to make a living? Why not start a small business in your profession with your trading capital? Invest in something that you already make money doing, something that has a reasonable chance to make you a living wage. Come back to the markets later when you have risk capital and can afford to take risks. In the meantime, pick up some new skills in mathematics, computer science, or psychology that could help you if and when you decide to approach the markets again.
-segv
I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume your otherwise vindictive and mean-spirited post was meant tongue-in-cheek.
Unlike others, I see nothing wrong nor un-romantic about earning a living through a 'mundane' job. I don't want to get too specific about the details of my private life, but I'm not being overly pessimistic when I say that based on my current situation, that's going to be very difficult for me to do.
Quote from Cheese:
This is sad.
An unrealizable fantasy for most but clearly it becomes an illness or sick obsession for some where successful trading is utterly and completely beyond the capabilities of such losers.
Just drop it and get a life through a mundane job.
I will admit that I never was able to get beyond his verbosity. All I ever really understood from his 'perfection' was something akin to a 1-2-3 pattern that signals a change in trend. I would not call myself a victim, though. It cost me a paltry $300, and for that he was even willing to tutor me privately. He definitely got me thinking about trend differently than I had until then, even if I could never discover the perfection of his methods.
Quote from vhehn:
"Bill Schamp who does the trend-is-your-friend HH’s and LL’s of Logic trading."
another victim of the good professors gibberish.
Re: Re: Desperation
Yes, I have. Maybe we're related...
Quote from Tums:
Your story reads like my biography.
Have you read Van Tharp?
If you want some idea of IF it is possible, and one way of approaching the task, read all posts by 40yotrader.
http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/searc...earchid=1331213
I don't know the guy, but if his posts are true, then you have at least a road map.
Can you do the work necessary? Do you have the tenacity and discipline?
Good luck.
Re: Re: Re: Desperation
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
Yes, I have. Maybe we're related...
Well Oddtrader do you read every such awful and unnecessary mess with pleasure? I don't. Its an addiction. It is also a question of the culprits facing up to the self damage & presumably damage to their families of such irresponsibility when clearly so many are not suited to the art of taking money out of the markets as a professional activity.
Quote from OddTrader:
Cheese, you really don't have to say this belittling part in the whole post, do you?
Quote from Cheese:
Well Oddtrader do you read every such awful and unnecessary mess with pleasure? I don't. Its an addiction. It is also a question of the culprits facing up to the self damage & presumably damage to their families of such irresponsibility when clearly so many are not suited to the art of taking money out of the markets as a professional activity.
Quote from segv:
You could not be more wrong. Excess returns are not possible without risk, and successful traders have an appetite for it.
-segv
HappGo-
Have you given any thought to the fact that you may be an addict? That no matter what hapens you'll always find a way to empty your account?
I'm not trying to be rude here, but even the verbage in your post and replies suggest this may be at least partly to blame.
B
Quote from B Ling:
HappGo-
Have you given any thought to the fact that you may be an addict? That no matter what hapens you'll always find a way to empty your account?
I'm not trying to be rude here, but even the verbage in your post and replies suggest this may be at least partly to blame.
B
Quote from Ripley:
The ONLY edge you can have in Futures trading is being able to get out when the market proves you wrong.
Your personality isn't suited for a trader. You MUST BE scared of risk.. you must run away from it. I think thats what leads you to be loose with your stops. Sometimes, by QUITTING you WIN. I think it is OK to QUIT trying to be a trader. I mean, you can work as a chicken farmer and can do better than 96% of all traders that trade. Trading Chickens, the risk reward are more in your favor you know.. Your goal as a trader must be to exploit favorable risk/reward opportunities. Which just isn't in trading futures.
Re: Desperation
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
6) At some point, get into a trade with no stop, have it go against you, add to position, blowout substantial % of your account or all of it.
Ha. But I think that not using stop orders and adding to a losing position just really doesn't work and is a guaranteed way to mostly sooner, but at least later, way to blow out your account. Hey dude, you need to learn to take a small loss when the market goes against you. This is mandatory and part of the game. Yes sometimes you can bail yourself out by adding to a losing position, but this is for the most part a bad strategy, or at least if you don't have a stop on your added position. Ha. __________________
We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time
- T.S. Eliot -
Quote from Mike805:
P.S. Ripley, I recommend that until you figure yourself out and, how exactly you plan to participate successfully in the markets, you stop posting.
Quote from Ripley:
I posted because I felt I was able to relate to the original poster.
Quote from Mike805:
With respect to your comment on Risk/Reward in futures trading, you are wrong and I can prove it. Lets just leave it at that.
Quote from Ripley:
na.. Lets not leave it at that. Lets prove it. Come on Mike, be an inspiration for us pikers. Prove that you are true Futures trading Champion.
Not to prove it to you, but to prove it to us.. as to whats possible with regards to risk/reward...
Quote from Ripley:
na.. Lets not leave it at that. Lets prove it. Come on Mike, be an inspiration for as pikers. Prove that you are true Futures trading Champion.
Not to prove it to you, but to prove it to us.. as to whats possible with regards to risk/reward...
lol... you use Market Profile and you tell me to shut up. Thats crazy mike.
Yeah.. Mike, now YOU REALLY makes me wanna see something that you can prove to us that you're profitable...
Quote from Ripley:
lol... you use Market Profile and you tell me to shut up. Thats crazy mike.
Yeah.. Mike, now YOU REALLY makes me wanna see something that you can prove to us that you're profitable...
Quote from Mike805:
EDIT: By no means do I claim to be a champion, not even close, but I do make money.
Quote from Mike805:
Yes, MP is a tool I use, as well as many others. Have you actually understood MP, applied it and gotten negative results?
Quote from EricP:
I disagree. The most successful traders I know despise risk and realize that they can make excellent returns while maintaining tight risk control. Non-risk-adverse traders are blowouts waiting to happen.
Quote from Ripley:
Well, lets just say there are better ways to trade than using MP, and I in NO WAY is a fan of MP.
Re: Desperation
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
I’ve been an ET lurker/contributor (though not under this name obviously) since 2001. I’ve gained a ton from these boards, and am now soliciting your advice / help. [/B]
__________________
"For Evil to succeed, it is sufficient that GOOD MEN do NOTHING" Edmund Burke
Computer: P4 2.53GHz, Intel Board D845PESV, 1 GB Ram, WD Caviar HD's, NVIDIA Quadro4 NVS, Logitech Elite Keyboard w/Cordless MX700 Mouse, Win 2000 Pro, System Guardian/XC 2000 Backup, Cyberpower 1500AVR Power Supply, (6) Samsung 191T Flat Panel Monitors-Digital
as far as the risk discussion is concerned, after 6 years trading full time I'd have to side in the risk is good camp. Most of succesful guys I know (disgressionary here, not system based) take on large levels of risk pretty regularly. Key is they never lose their heads in extreme situations. I think a lot of people confuse risk with reckless behavior. If you have a system that has strict risk control..and proceed to do away with such controls, that's not taking on risk, that's just moronic. However if you are a disgressionary trader with positive returns, at some point you have to realize that to make great returns at times you have to take on risk. Course if you can't make money in the first place then forget it, you shouldn't even be trading. Perhaps in the end it's all a semantic debate.
Quote from Mike805:
You are telling me something is useless and yet you are an unprofitable trader.
Re: Desperation
Wow, given your history of failure in part-time trading I am very surprised that your wife thought it was a good idea to make trading a full-time career.
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
but when all’s said and done, I was and am still a huge net loser.
At some point, due to a change in location, I found myself without a job, some savings (not that much), and a family to support. I was not fired from my previous job, but we made the decision to move, and that involved me leaving my job (which I probably would have left anyway as I no longer felt capable of doing it). My wife and I made the decision that, after so many years of trading part-time, and without a viable source of income, the time had come for me to trade full time.
Re: Re: Desperation
Quote from GTS:
Good luck with your quest to find a mentor.
Gamblers will never quit, they are so self confident that one day it will all come together.
It's unfortunate, but there have been a few other cases on this board that I have participated in, and I'm not seeing a few of those other traders around right now, even though they blocked me and said I was crazy.
A gambler will never give up on this until he ruins his or her life. I don't have facts to prove this, but I do have examples on ET.
To the OP, if you in anyway, shape or form feel like you have a tendancy to gamble, I must urge you to seek help before you ruin your life.
That's all I got, and if this is not the case (I hope I'm wrong), then just work hard and find a strategy, but I like the suggestions of taking a break.
I'm not an expert on this or anything, but I have studied things that have related to this, and it's bad, and if you can't suck it up and admit you have a problem, then even though you might not deserve what you get, you will suffer.
Some of the greatest remembered people in our time were great, not because they never gave up, but because they knew when to give up and move onto bigger and better things to propel them to greatness.
Time to take a vacation and reflect. I suggest a cruise, when I came back, I felt like a new person.
Re: Desperation
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
I need a mentor. ..
I’m looking for someone with a true edge, who is consistently profitable, to teach me how to trade equities...
I’m a pretty bright guy,..
If you are one of the rare individuals who has a true, consistent edge, and feel motivated to help this sorry-soul out, I’m a lucky guy. I hope you’ll have the patience to deal with me.
Quote from Ripley:
Yeap.. I am such a LOSER. Excuse my follies and carry on..
Yes, I have given this some thought. Your suggesting it intrigues me. My knee-jerk reaction is to say, "No, of course not!" But, rather than do that, with your indulgence, I'd like to explore this.
What in my posting makes you see this in me? It is true I have lost money, risked more than I should have, etc. But what would my motivation be to "find ways to empty my account?"
I'm not a gambler in other aspects of life. I never buy lottery tickets. Never been to Vegas, Atlantic City, or even Casino Niagra. No drugs, drink, don't smoke, and I'm not an indulgent spender.
I am concerned, because I know that often an addict is the last one to know/recognize his addiction. So I would be a fool to completely rule out the possibility.
Losing money has been extremely painful for me. One might argue I'm trying to self-inflict pain.
If I had to self-analyze (which to a large extent I guess I do), I would say that my vices have been greed and laziness. Greed of trying to make too much too quickly; and laziness of failing to apply myself to the trading profession, and to treat it as such.
But this may all be justification to what is no more than a gambling addiction. Which brings me back to my question: What about my writing convinces you that this is the case?
Thanks for taking the time.
Quote from B Ling:
HappGo-
Have you given any thought to the fact that you may be an addict? That no matter what hapens you'll always find a way to empty your account?
I'm not trying to be rude here, but even the verbage in your post and replies suggest this may be at least partly to blame.
B
Jho,
Please read my post above to B Ling, and reply to it as well, if you have the time and inclination.
Quote from jho:
That is exactly what popped into my head after I read the post. This is a reality check! Wake up!
Quote from Mike805:
Man, there is just no way to get through that attitude of yours is there? I never called you a loser pal. You keep calling yourself one, you seem to have been doing it so long I think you actually believe it at this point.
Do you see the irony in your past statement wrt MP? You are critizing a method that sets the framework for my trading while you yourself do not trade successfully.
At this point, I give up.
Yeah, definitely read my above post, and realize your on a track to a head on collision with another train.
I've seen this on ET, I've studied it, I've done hours of research to try and understand it. It would be very wise to seek help, maybe some people on ET can help you if you seek it, or couselors, family....
Got to man-up and accept that you suffer from something that is difficult to break.
Cheese,
Since you, too, have used the term addiction, I pose the question to you as well: Are all thus-far-unsucessful traders who tenaciously persevere addicts by default?
What do you think it is that makes you (I ask this in all seriousness) so innately "suited to the art of taking money out of the markets as a professional activity?" Are you exceptionally smart? Disciplined? Confident? Risk-conscious/averse/loving? Do you feel you're either born to trade or not, and if you don't make it right away, you're a sado-massochistic addict?
Quote from Cheese:
Well Oddtrader do you read every such awful and unnecessary mess with pleasure? I don't. Its an addiction. It is also a question of the culprits facing up to the self damage & presumably damage to their families of such irresponsibility when clearly so many are not suited to the art of taking money out of the markets as a professional activity.
best advice i can offer since u couldn't do it alone is to join a prop firm, put down 5k and get 1-to-1 mentorship...u'll be on a sim for months and then will start small under supervision...haircut, low commish, office environment and mentorship will give u enormous advantage over retails...this is the best chance u got imo, take it or leave the biz.
Quote from Ripley:
Please don't give up mike.. Never Give Up.
When I refer to myself as LOSER, I am referring to the charateristic FUTURES trader. I can do it because I have ENOUGH (a little too much at times) CONFIDENCE in myself and my trading prowress that it doesn't affect me.
But, I applaud you for sticking up for the poster here. Where I told him, it would be better for him to QUIT, that he can WIN by QUITTING, you say there is a WINNING method, and there is a way to WIN when you full well know that 95% of the time, he or someone else will not find it.
Mike, let him get on with his LIFE. Good God.
HD1,
You speak about 1) Talent and 2) Background. Do you mind spelling out what talents you feel are critical, without which one may be doomed to "transfer his wealth to the securities industry?" And what background do you feel is crucial to being a sucessful trader?
Thanks
Quote from HoundDogOne:
Once again... cheese tells it like it is.
Most "traders" do not have the talent nor background to succeed...
Not even remotely close.
If that is you...
Then you are ** EXACTLY ** the dreamer the Securities Industry is looking for.
They will teach everything to need to know...
In order to become a degenerate gambler...
And methodically transfer your wealth to the Securities Industry.
If you do not understand this going in... then you need a course in Life 101.
Great post, EricP. Short, but gives me (and perhaps others) lots to mull over.
Quote from EricP:
I disagree. The most successful traders I know despise risk and realize that they can make excellent returns while maintaining tight risk control. Non-risk-adverse traders are blowouts waiting to happen.
Quote from Mike805:
Ripley,
... You have little confidence in yourself, your strategy - let alone YOU ADMIT on a regular basis that its impossible to take money from the markets. Do you realize that you constantly reinforce negativity into yourself and you DWELL on failure? Snap out of it, get some counseling and move on... the markets are not going to give you anything other than pain and frustration until you drastically change your thinking.
The OP has a problem most likely very similar to yours. Both of you need to destroy these illusions you have.
With respect to your comment on Risk/Reward in futures trading, you are wrong and I can prove it. Lets just leave it at that.
Mike
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
Jho,
Please read my post above to B Ling, and reply to it as well, if you have the time and inclination.
Find my threads where I started 200k path to whatever, you can read a lot of good ideas I put down in there.
I don't have any unique edges to tell you , like arbing or whatever,
I'm not that smart
but I can telll you whats required to be a relatively profitable trader.
when I win, I win big, when I lose , I lose a few pennies,
I don't have a unique edge, its mostly indicators I written up in tradestation based on price only.
the steps you need to figure out in your journey
1. How to make your stops small.
think about this long and hard, test it out, look over charts, any questions pm me.
2. detection of trend reversal ,
How to accurantly point to one candle and say, this is the trend reverse candle right here, 12:35 , this big fat greencandle stick.
If price falls below this big fat candlestick, trend has reversed, if it stays above, we are now on an up trend or whatever.
3. Learn how to short stocks profitably
what pattern happens right before a fall?
4. Learn how to long stocks profitably
what patttern happens right before a rally?
The two above can be learned from trading spy or futures on a tick chart, open up a tick chart
trade with 1 contract, and keep trading till you get stopped out 50 times.
5. Learn to trade ALWAYS from a instutistional standpoint,
If I had 20 million dollars, how would I invest it?
Would I enter here?
Would I buy here?
Would I sell here?
What would make me buy 10 miillion dollars worth of stock within 5 minutes?
Would I look at a tick chart to invest 10 million dollars?
6. Keep a good mistakes journal
for every trading lost, write down why, etc... what can be fixed.
Trading losts = tuition paid, benefit from them.
Slowly you won't need to be paying as much later.
Thats a start, if any questions. send me a pm of a chart, or some entries, I'll tell you whats wrong with it
I'm pretty sure nobody will hand you a "real" edge, because real edges are very short lived and make a LOT of money,
real trading methologies last forever, just requires a lot of patience and knowledge to figure it all out.
__________________
Lets discuss ideas/Strategies
Trend/Day/System
Growing Fund in progress
one other thing
join a prop firm, sit around people who make lots of money everyday,
they'll teach you something after they get to know you in person.
__________________
Lets discuss ideas/Strategies
Trend/Day/System
Growing Fund in progress
To Mike805,
I'm sorry. I messed up my previous reply. I have followed Ripley's thread from time to time; there may be some issues there that are different than mine.
My negativity is actually very recent, and stems from the realization (and I think this is good) that my strategy is not well-enough-defined to make consistent money in the markets, and that I am not guarding my risk carefully enough (probably also a factor of lack of positive expectancy which makes me want to turn every trade into a home-run). It's not something I feel I need councilling for, as I'm generally a pretty optimistic guy, and my pessimism here is more like realism.
Now a mentor, who could help me develop a consistent methodology, that's a different story.
Thanks for your reply. (And I'm sorry you don't like the thread name. It's how I felt when I wrote it. Perhaps you've never felt that way.)
I would be interested, some time, in hearing more about how you trade and use market profile, if that's okay with you. But before I could do that, I would have to do my own homework...
Thanks again.
HGL
JMowery,
In my replies to others, I outline why I don't feel I'm your typical gambler. Lazy yes. Greedy yes. Want to believe that I can extract money from the markets with ease, and without putting in enough effort yes. Cavalier, at times.
I know the tendency is to stereotype, but if you read my posts, perhaps you'll change your mind. Then again, maybe not.
Thanks for responding all the same. You're a young guy, but I enjoy your posts.
Quote from JMowery1987:
Gamblers will never quit, they are so self confident that one day it will all come together.
It's unfortunate, but there have been a few other cases on this board that I have participated in, and I'm not seeing a few of those other traders around right now, even though they blocked me and said I was crazy.
A gambler will never give up on this until he ruins his or her life. I don't have facts to prove this, but I do have examples on ET.
To the OP, if you in anyway, shape or form feel like you have a tendancy to gamble, I must urge you to seek help before you ruin your life.
That's all I got, and if this is not the case (I hope I'm wrong), then just work hard and find a strategy, but I like the suggestions of taking a break.
I'm not an expert on this or anything, but I have studied things that have related to this, and it's bad, and if you can't suck it up and admit you have a problem, then even though you might not deserve what you get, you will suffer.
Some of the greatest remembered people in our time were great, not because they never gave up, but because they knew when to give up and move onto bigger and better things to propel them to greatness.
Time to take a vacation and reflect. I suggest a cruise, when I came back, I felt like a new person.
Re: Re: Desperation
Mac,
I know it sounds absurd. But if you went to a doctor, and he diagnosed you and gave you all the right medicines, but you failed to follow his regimen, and remained sick, you might still be grateful towards the doctor, even as you fumed at yourself for being so lazy and careless.
ET is a tremendous source of information for all traders. I am sure there are many traders that can directly or indirectly attribute their success to ET. I am grateful for what it has given me, even as I grow more ashamed at my own laziness and greed.
Perhaps I will (still) be the next ET success story... ;-)
Quote from F-Trader:
How can you say this?
You average down, blow out your account several times, blow out 40k in a futures account in 2 fuggin weeks, quit your job, put your family at risk, etc...
And you still have NO strategy after all this time.
I make good money but it's a grind. Same thing day after day after day... I make $500 - $1,500 consistently. On a bad day I break even minus whatever commission cost, so maybe a couple hundred bucks.
I cut losses immediately, I NEVER move my Stops, I NEVER Average a Loser, don't make foolish trades, I go for Singles only, F'k Home Runs, follow good money management, etc...
How can you say you've gained a lot from this board?
I think you should leave trading for a while and concentrate on YOURSELF and your family.
Get a job and if you can save some money then trade small and start back after you have tested your system.
Good Luck
Mac
Obviously one possible solution would be none of your systems in the past had been fully/ properly backtested on paper before trading with small/ big money.
Can youn point us to the backtesting method(s) you found useful on ET or any books for reference?
__________________
"The Pursuit of Happyness" --- Chris Gardner
Lazy yes. Greedy yes
HGL, What you are looking for you will only find within.
I will offer you this, you will never trade for a living with scared money. Never.
Have you read this book ? If not I suggest you buy it.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bo...578&TXT=Y&itm=1
Quote from volente_00:
HGL, What you are looking for you will only find within.
I will offer you this, you will never trade for a living with scared money. Never.
Have you read this book ? If not I suggest you buy it.
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bo...578&TXT=Y&itm=1
I do not believe you should trade and try to find an edge at the same time. Allow an open ended time for yourself to find an edge and learn to trade it like a pro via simulations, reading books, etc. When and only when you have something that works, and you can test it right up to the point of trading it in a simulated account that very much mimics the real market, then you should trade it, and you should start out small.
The other good choice is to sign up with a prop firm that has training and mentoring and let them help you. You will need to have money to live on for a while most likely.
I am a natural at Montessori style learning. I can learn on my own, at my own pace, I have done that since I was a kid, slept through school, went home and started learning something I was interested in. There were occasions where I could show the teacher something, there were lots of classes that I got a C or D in, it just was a matter of the curriculum matching what I was doing on my own. I can study and trade by myself and after a lot of years it is all fun now, and not difficult, and it is good like canned peaches. It took a lot of time. I had a job and no pressure to earn, and I am glad because it took me an awful lot longer to get it figured out than I ever dreamed it could.
If you are not a natural Montessori style learner then you should not try to learn that way, find a situation where the trainers have a vested interest in your success [that will not be in a "guru" type setting will it?] and let them help you.
Quote from maxpi:
I am a natural at Montessori style learning. I can learn on my own, at my own pace, I have done that since I was a kid, slept through school, went home and started learning something I was interested in. There were occasions where I could show the teacher something, there were lots of classes that I got a C or D in, it just was a matter of the curriculum matching what I was doing on my own. I can study and trade by myself and after a lot of years it is all fun now, and not difficult, and it is good like canned peaches. It took a lot of time. I had a job and no pressure to earn, and I am glad because it took me an awful lot longer to get it figured out than I ever dreamed it could.
If you are not a natural Montessori style learner then you should not try to learn that way, find a situation where the trainers have a vested interest in your success [that will not be in a "guru" type setting will it?] and let them help you.
I haven't read through everyone's responses so forgive me if someone already said this, but it seems really simple to me.
Stop being an idiot and start using everything you've supposedly learned from reading ET.
You said you would trade cautiously and make money, then after a while, take more risk or not cut losses and then blow out nearly all of your account on one trade.
Why not continue trading cautiously and continue making money?
Hmmm... I'm like maxpi and JMowery1987 in that I'm a very bad at being shoehorned into traditional paths and roles. School was darn boring for me and I always felt impatient and held back. Sure, I could get straight-As if I wanted to, but I felt like school was such a waste. I learned best on my own, at my own pace, in the specific subjects I wanted to learn.
I've tried trading "systems" and classes and they did no good. To this day, my learning method is still varied depending upon the conditions and subject. I've found mentors to be helpful at times, books for other things, and ultimately, hands-on training was the best.
The most important rule for me has been that the results I've achieved in my life has been based upon everything I know and who I am. To get different results, I have to be a different person with different knowledge. I have to be willing to give up who I've been for who I could be.
So my suggestion to HGL is to not make any drastic changes. I'd go for some safety and security first to ensure your family's survival. Such as getting a steady-job so that you can have some stability and put food on the table. Then practice on your trading system and emotional control with a small account part-time until you can make consistent wins with steady growth in the account. At some point, your gains will be enough to live on. Then and only then would you want to trade fulltime.
Good luck!
Quote from Ripley:
What I gave him was the ADVICE that is SUITED for MOST PEOPLE.
If he isn't like the most people, then he isn't and he'll find a way around it.
Quote from siki13:
Self admitted loser giving advises , what more do you want.
Happy,
After a 18 year sales career and a family to support I find myself in a similar situation. I have been working with a guy out of Las Vegas who was supose to be mentoring me but after 9 months and a sizeable investment in time and money it is not working out. Picking a mentor is a great idea but make sure they are qualified and can teach.
Good Luck,
John
You don't need a mentor, you need a shrink. As it was pointed out earlier, you obviously didn't learn much from ET by lurking, otherwise you wouldn't have blown your account so many times.
If you were able to make 40K from 8K, go back and analyze those trades, why where they succesful? You must have had some kind of system or did you just kept flipping a coin?
I have to agree with Cheese that you are not suitable for being a trader. You already had 2 mentors, and you were not able to follow their systems, so what makes you think this time is different?
You clearly have no money management and no selfdiscipline. A mentor would just waste his time with you. And you don't even want to pay for it? You blew 10000s in the market but a mentor who would give you a skill for life would get only a thank you note?
I don't think so. Go and get a job. Sooner is the better. I suspect you are a compulsive gambler deep down.
Seriously, go and get a shrink...
P.S.: Just how did you manage to miss the biggest bubble in history, when every monkey was making money? It just shows you can't even recognize the general trend...
-
I used to trade too. You have to ask yourself why do you want to trade and risk suffering from a stroke, when you can earn probably double as an analyst in a good bank.
Is it the buzz of it? Well if its buzz u want then why dont you just date a stripper or something......
Even if you do do well in your day trading, why do u want to risk losing it all from one trade? Go for the CFA exams and move into investment management...
anyone agree?
Feelings of frustration could be your mind's way of telling you to develop your own method of trading. What do you think is preventing you from getting personally involved and performing your own studies of price behavior?
His problem is discipline and poor money management. Until he fixes them the past will repeat itself every time that he trades. Every single trade that he takes, in the back of his mind he is still thinking about his past failures in trading and they are effecting his emotions.
To Coolweb, JMowery, Volente, maxpi, JA LDP, DannoXYZ, Gaphunter, Pekolo, blg01,
I am presently unable to respond to each of you individually, but deeply appreciate your having taken the time to read my thread and respond.
Coolweb: I enjoyed your 6 steps to success; they are classic. As far as joining a prop firm, I have investigated that. My choices, due to my location, are presently very limited, and I feel I must be comfortable with the style of the firm in order for it not to be just another failure, which I haven't found yet, after speaking to the couple of firms here. Relocating. as someone suggested, is not an option; that is my family situation.
Oddtrader: One might say I am a 'jack of all threads--master of none' except that I'm not even sure I'm the jack part. As I've said here, more than the compulsive gambler, which I really believe I'm not (notwithstanding Pekolo and others), I have out of greed and laziness failed to give the markets the respect they command. Overcoming those two vices is something, like JMowrey goes on to say, that must come from within, not from a shrink.
Volente: I have not read that book. From its title, I can see it's something I need to read, and will be doing so promptly, especially coming with the recommendations of successful traders.
Maxpi: I agree that it's almost impossible, at least for me, to trade and do edge searching at the same time. This is one reason that I am not trading real money right now, and will not, under any circumstances, begin again unless I have a backtested and forward-tested edge.
JA LDP: What you said is something I've told myself in the past. Every time I've 'run up' my account in the past, it has been through discretionary trading. Either I'm very lucky, or I have a decent feel for the markets; I believe it is the latter. However, discretion is a two-edged sword. Even if you've been successful for many days in a row, you're always nervous that you may just lose your 'feel', or that you may have just been lucky all along. Having a demonstrable, repetitive, edge, gives one the confidence one needs to take stops, keep losses small, etc. I don't think, for now, that it's a good idea for me to return to discretionary trading.
DannoXYZ and maxpi: Yes, I'm a pretty good self learner. But if I wish to succeed, I must clamp down on myself to follow through and see each project to its conclusion, instead of all these loose-ends that come back to haunt me.
Gaphunter: Thanks for having the guts to respond to this thread, despite my getting pretty beaten up. A lot of the mentors out there are traders who have never made it themselves, and have no demonstrable edge. Perhaps they delude themselves into thinking they are the "coach-but-can't-play" types. Perhaps they are simply crooks. Either way, they are too likely to blame your failure on you, when (in the mentor-guru scenario) it in fact comes from a failure in the methods. I think there are two types of mentors: 1) There are, truly (believe it or not) successful traders out there who help others for free. They do it, perhaps, as a way of giving back, or because they love the teaching. 2) Hugely successful traders who are willing to share their secrets for very big money (relatively), i.e. $25k and up. Perhaps they don't mind taking some time off, and $25k + risk-free money is something that even some quite-successful traders would consider. These guys who 'sell their souls' for somewhere between $99 and $5k or even $10k are usually making a living off their mentorship, and unless they can show you, in advance, their own consistently profitable account statements (I would say one year minimum), they're probably taking you for a ride. Not only will you be poorer; in the end you will be even more confused than when you begun. The two people I 'mentored' with, Scott and Bill, may indeed fall into the same category. At the time, the money they were asking for was very small, and I learned a lot from each of them, which, despite my present lack of success, has made me a 'better trader.'
Pekolo: What can I say? Thanks for your comments. I missed 'the bubble' because I was too engrossed in my 'real job' at the time to be able to trade. Actually, I don't regret missing it; I needed the time to invest in my other job, and trying to juggle both at that stage would have been disastrous. The two 'mentors' I had, IMHO, never really had (proven and successful) systems to follow, despite their claims to the contrary. Maybe I'm wrong about this. They'd say so for sure. But, as I said before, at some point, for me, I realized I'd get more from the market theory they taught me than from the (ever changing?) methods. I'm not too cheap to pay for a mentor. I regret my losses and have suffered as a result of them. I am still wary of paid mentors/gurus, and am not sure it would be a good idea for me right now to plunk $5 or $10 or more k down for the next guru to knock on my door. That's what I meant.
blg01: Doing as you said, getting a decent-paying 'mundane' job is definitely a consideration I have been actively exploring. I spent a good chunk of time recently making phone calls, knocking on doors, and sending out my resume. Strangely, I don't find trading deathly stressful, and when I'm trading well, it can be relaxing and enjoyable. I am not yet willing to give up on it, a) due to my pessimism about getting a job through which I can support my family (that is just the situation, I can't change it), b) because I've invested so much time and effort into trading and feel in many ways I have a really solid understanding of market behaviour, and c) because I perceive my lack of success as something within my power to change, perhaps with some help from other experienced traders. Having to go through this thread and respond and mull over it has itself done me much good.
Hook n Sinker: Laziness and greed, as I've said before.
Volente: You're right. One of the conditions of my 'finding and edge' is that it must have a pre-determined stop, which is very tough if you're trading off gut-feeling and intuition as I have in the past. My past edge may well have been my intuition, but even if it was, it is not a style of trading that I can continue.
Thanks again to all who took the time to respond, both on thread and by PM.
Quote from gaphunter:
Happy,
After a 18 year sales career and a family to support I find myself in a similar situation. I have been working with a guy out of Las Vegas who was supose to be mentoring me but after 9 months and a sizeable investment in time and money it is not working out. Picking a mentor is a great idea but make sure they are qualified and can teach.
Good Luck,
John
Quote from Hombre:
That is why everyone should ask for a free trial .
HGL, Do not trade again until you read the book. It will be the best $40 you ever spent.
Here is a novel idea:
Instead of trying to be a trader, why not just follow a good one and copy his trades? It is ET's dirty little secret that at any given time there are at least 5 members posting realtime profitable trades. I know 4 at this time and there are more I am sure, I don't read every thread. It is free, you just have to find them, and follow them. But you have been a lurker here, haven't you?
(how come you never thought of this?)
Quote from Pekelo:
Here is a novel idea:
Instead of trying to be a trader, why not just follow a good one and copy his trades? It is ET's dirty little secret that at any given time there are at least 5 members posting realtime profitable trades. I know 4 at this time and there are more I am sure, I don't read every thread. It is free, you just have to find them, and follow them. But you have been a lurker here, haven't you?
(how come you never thought of this?)
Correct, but it was already pointed out that he is not a good trader, and my guess is that he never will be...
P.S.: I PMed him the names of those 4 posters, because it is such a nice day today...
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
JA LDP: What you said is something I've told myself in the past. Every time I've 'run up' my account in the past, it has been through discretionary trading. Either I'm very lucky, or I have a decent feel for the markets; I believe it is the latter. However, discretion is a two-edged sword. Even if you've been successful for many days in a row, you're always nervous that you may just lose your 'feel', or that you may have just been lucky all along. Having a demonstrable, repetitive, edge, gives one the confidence one needs to take stops, keep losses small, etc. I don't think, for now, that it's a good idea for me to return to discretionary trading.
prop firm
<<
one other thing join a prop firm, sit around people who make lots of money everyday,
they'll teach you something after they get to know you in person.>>
Don't these firm's like Don's just trade stocks. And the reason you need them is because you can't use leverage like you do in future trading? If they trade futures, I would be more interested.
I do trade with other traders over the internet, and it does seem to give me psychological support.
I also put money in a hedge fund where the master trader has a good track record and I have to give him 25% of my profits. I have no problem doing this, and will put in double my current money if he continues to do well.
I am still working on my own strategy where the edge has worked fine at over 75% win ratio so far, but since I have to trade it myself instead of with others, I am having an extremely hard time pulling the trigger, or if I do, putting on enough contracts to make a difference. It's so much easier to trade where everyone else around you is doing the same thing, than to go against them even though I would have been right today and made money but took their trade instead and am down $ 75. Was down $ 550, but fought my way back with a different trader while the 1st group is still down for the day. Would actually have been profitable for the day if I trusted that last signal where he went long above his previous trade signal to close out at a profit.
If I understand things correctly, you have no job, very little money, and kids to feed. How in your right mind can you even consider trading again right now!? You have a history of failure at it. Regardless of what you think the causes of your failure are, you still failed.
Have you considered what to do if you fail again? What happens when you have $0 left to trade with? How will your kids get food in them?
If you want to continue trading, fine. But now is not the time. Get a job, any job. Get two if you have to. I used to have employees that worked 2-3 jobs so that their families could have a better life. And you are on the brink of losing everything.
Don't let your greed and laziness make your kids go to bed hungry at night.
Quote from fedge:
...I used to have employees that worked 2-3 jobs so that their families could have a better life.
__________________
I'm handing you no blarney
my story
I used to trade futures for a living. I joined the training scheme, traded on a dummy trading system then live. We all had these big dreams when we joined. After working there for a year or so reality kicks in. You are on a min wage, and although it sounds like you have a great career, I mean 'Trader', you have nothing to show for it.
Is trading truly a good career? I am now more skeptical than ever. I have traded futures for a long time. Like the guy who mentioned earlier, you make some, lose some, make some lose some. You put more money into the trading a/c, vow you will change your methods but in the end the same cycle happens.
I mean are we fooling ourselves because trading is the only job where we can 'potentially' make so much more, to fulfil our dreams? I have lost over 100k and I am not even 30 yet. Looking back I made some terrible mistakes.
Now I have been offered a job in Trading again. I am unemployed right now, but i am thinking twice about it, because of the risk reward element. Salary is practically to a min level, and its all down to commission. Where I could infact take a much 'steadier' job, although much less exciting, where i know i will get exactly x amount per month. But something insides me still wants to trade, to give myself a second chance. Yet inside I am afraid of failing, and knowing what I know, the stress that comes with trading.
Any suggestions?
I guess I should clarify. I didn't set the wages and the jobs were for minimum wage laborers. Most of the ones that worked several jobs were immigrants and sent the money home. I always found it interesting that they came here and worked their butts off in menial jobs while their famillies were livin large back home.
Re: my story
I actually got a call today for a computer position interview. I have over 8 years of experience doing computer work. I would probably need to get another 2 certifications to get some better work.
But like you, I am thinking it might be better to do a real job again than trading. I like working from home for the trading, but its like you make some money, and then you give back some money. I am thinking of studying for these tests at night and/or taking some more classes. I am sure there are some successful traders here, but sometimes it feels like gambling to me even when I do "win". I do feel that I make more money trading than I would ever at black jack, but I wonder if this is more like gambling, and some people who are so called successful traders are just better gamblers.
Quote from keentoknow:
I used to trade futures for a living. I joined the training scheme, traded on a dummy trading system then live. We all had these big dreams when we joined. After working there for a year or so reality kicks in. You are on a min wage, and although it sounds like you have a great career, I mean 'Trader', you have nothing to show for it.
Is trading truly a good career? I am now more skeptical than ever. I have traded futures for a long time. Like the guy who mentioned earlier, you make some, lose some, make some lose some. You put more money into the trading a/c, vow you will change your methods but in the end the same cycle happens.
I mean are we fooling ourselves because trading is the only job where we can 'potentially' make so much more, to fulfil our dreams? I have lost over 100k and I am not even 30 yet. Looking back I made some terrible mistakes.
Now I have been offered a job in Trading again. I am unemployed right now, but i am thinking twice about it, because of the risk reward element. Salary is practically to a min level, and its all down to commission. Where I could infact take a much 'steadier' job, although much less exciting, where i know i will get exactly x amount per month. But something insides me still wants to trade, to give myself a second chance. Yet inside I am afraid of failing, and knowing what I know, the stress that comes with trading.
Any suggestions?
Have you ever noticed how many Little Emperors there are among us who immediately pop up out of the woodwork the moment someone renders himself vulnerable with refreshing honesty and asks for guidance? Rather than address the specific issues raised by the poster, these omnipotents proceed to pass judgment on the lives of people about whom they have read a scant few paragraphs. At the drop of a hat, they will advise you of the limitations that will haunt you for the remainder of your natural life. Oh, what splendid lives these big-picture visionaries must lead from their lofty perches! On the other hand, perhaps they assert themselves here in a manner than they cannot, or dare not, attempt in real life. I think I'll go with door number 2.
P.S. The rest of us can only hope that they trade as adroitly as they dispense advice.
__________________
I'm handing you no blarney
Hi Happy,
You are much more experienced in trading than me but here are my thoughts anyway:
1) Get a job even if it means crawling back to your old boss. Do it for your family. Don't create a "scared" money situation.
2) "Elevate yourself" - I heard this from a TV interview of a Chinese trader (more of an investor). I think his name is "Million" Wang. He said if people seek investment opportunity but they don't "improve" themselves thru that experience, ultimately they will fall behind even though they made the money.
3) As I suggested on Ripley's thread, read ********'s posts... they are free. You don't have to abaondon this trend technique or that countertrend method, everything will fall into their own place when you go with the assessment of the market. You don't need the so-call trading psychology as much either... I think they are more important when we are on the wrong side...losing.
Regards,
William
__________________
Honesty is the key.
Sorry I got the trader's name wrong. His name is "Million" Yang.
__________________
Honesty is the key.
To HappyGoLucky,
Your story is very similar to my own. I traded unsuccessfully for several years as a hobby, re-funding accounts regularly. I went 6 or 7 years without ever making money, just dumping most of my disposable income (and most of my retirement savings) into the black hole of my account.
I loved trading and knew I had the mind for it, but kept making the same errors, most of the ones you outlined. Eventually I faced up to all the issues that were holding me back, got serious and treated trading as a business, and eventually made it.
Let me see if I can offer some advice/comments that you can take something away from.
You don't have to be a 'gambler' to have a gambling-type addiction with your trading. Deep down I knew this was one of the issues dogging me, but didn't want to admit it. I too never gambled, bought lottery tickets, had any gambling inclinations. Yet my behavior with my trading was clearly along the same lines, it's just that trading and investing are socially acceptable and we don't associate the same traits we do to typical gambling. I would recommend you read up on the 12 step recovery process used by AA and see if you recognize something there in your own behavior.
Taking responsibility for absolutely everything that you do and that happens to you is critical. You can never blame other people or factors for what happens to you. You seem to have a good handle on this, but you just have to ingrain that thought process into your belief system.
Forget futures. It is much much more difficult to make consistent money in that game. I'm not saying it can't be done, but when you are starting out or struggling, it's not the place to be. Focus on equities only, there are more inefficiencies there to exploit. This is a common trait I see on ET among losing/complaining traders, they are usually trading futures or currencies.
Regarding risk, yes you have to take risks to make any money, that goes without saying. The best most consistent traders I know hate to lose money and play a tight game. Yes, there are good, long term profitable traders who swing big $'s up and down and have the +- $10k days regularly, but you have to realize that they have gotten there over a long period of time and that it's all relative. They still hate to lose and never get lazy about controlling risk. I would say that the number one thing that knocks people out of the game when they are new is that they take on way too much risk for where they are on the curve. You have to focus on executing the plan only, forget trying to make money. IF you can execute your plan consistently and become and automon about it, the money will come. Trade small, small, small and move up slowly. This is why it's so important to have money to live off of while you're going through the early stages.
Consider the prop firm route. When the time came to go full time, I too quite my job and moved my wife and kids to a different city where we wanted to settle near our extended family. They stayed behind and I drove 2500 miles and lived in a dumpy apartment for almost 3 months while I traded in the prop firm's head office. I went into hyper-learning mode, sponged all I could from other traders, stayed at the office until 10 pm every day reviewing trades, working on ideas. I lost money over that time, but it's while I groped for something that really clicked with me while learning and getting exposure to so many different ideas. I came back home and my trading turned the corner and I've not had a losing month since (4 1/2 years). My years of constantly losing finally paid off because I'd made every mistake imaginable and experienced every loser's range of feelings. When I got really serious about it, I progressed pretty quickly because I recognized what not to do.
You seem to have the right mindset to trade. You're humble and willing to do whatever it takes and that is hugely important. It sounds like you are caught in a tough situation financially. A crappy job won't get you anywhere and you don't have enough savings to live off of while you start over. If you decide to go for it, you need a bit of a mental makeover and have to face up to whatever issues are making you blow out with the same error each time. When you do make it though, it'll all pay off in spades.
Good luck
Lescor, thanks for sharing that; great post.
Quote from lescor:
Your story is very similar to my own.
Do you have the tenacity and discipline?
If you need it check this out.
www.hotspankings.com
Just felt this thread could use a laugh.
__________________
TJC
pekelo, pls tell me 4 this are? in person it is hard to even tell. some make so muck somke and mirrors. I read all lot of et but i cant tel dum from dummer .
thnaks in advane
Re: Re: Desperation
Quote from Tums:
Your story reads like my biography.
Have you read Van Tharp?
Quote from Pekelo:
Here is a novel idea:
Instead of trying to be a trader, why not just follow a good one and copy his trades? It is ET's dirty little secret that at any given time there are at least 5 members posting realtime profitable trades. I know 4 at this time and there are more I am sure, I don't read every thread. It is free, you just have to find them, and follow them. But you have been a lurker here, haven't you?
(how come you never thought of this?)
Yes, there are tips to be found, but none show all the clues to the strategy.
If I was in front of the original poster of this thread, Happy Go Lucky, I would slap him. But since I am not, I will try to help you with some written advice.
I have posted this chart on these forums from time to time. I am not trying to brag with this chart....only trying to prove a point. I began trading in 2002. This chart only reflects my time with Tradestation which began in July of 2003. You will notice that it took me about 700 - 800 trades to show any profit. Then it clicked and I can now call myself a full time trader with plenty of USD's to make me feel good. I also have a couple longer term accounts at IB for my retirement funds that I have done extremely well in that I am not counting.
I worked for a major corporation and fell in love with trading in 2002. I did okay in the corporate world. I made around $240,000 a year at my job. I was in sales so it was not always consistent. But none the less, I did okay. I do not work for corporate america anymore and I have made over $200,000 in one week on several occassions.
How did I do this? It was simple. It's not about any edge or indicator or mentor. Wash this from your mind. Believe in yourself and your God given talents. Search very hard within yourself to understand what you really want in life and what is important to you. Go buy two books (I think they are both around $7.95). Napoleon Hill's "Think and Grow Rich" and also Maxwell Maltz, "Psycho-Cybernetics". You don't need these books really, but they re-inforce the age old principles that make a man successful. Commit to understanding and developing these principles and apply them to your own situation. If you do not believe in them, or if you try to complicate them, then you will not be succesful. The principles include...but are not limited to:
Bang
Well said down...
well said.
Oh boy, where to start.
#1 Stop trading immediately. Your chance of being successful at this point is close to zero. Your return over the last few years has been negative. Even if you had another $40K in the bank, would making 40K in the next year be enough??? Considering your negative return each year, what is the probability you could make a 100% return in the next year, just to make a measely 40K????? How many people make 100% return a year???? Very few, and only because they have smaller accounts and scalp.
Consider this a painful lesson, give it up, and never look back.
Orrrrrrr, come up with a real plan to become a professional trader.
It will need to look a bit realistic, something like this.
1. Get a job that will suport your family while you look for edges
2. Learn to find real edges - since you have gotten nowhere so far, this could take another 3-5 years easily. Sure its worth it?
3. DO NOT TRADE A SINGLE SHARE OF ANYTHING until you have absolute statistical proof of a solid edge. Anything else is simply foolish gambling.
Not everyone has the skills required to become a trader. Most people dont have the skills and will never acquire the skills or are not willing to put the sacrifice into it.
The following is not bragging by any means, but I want to sink in a real life example of what it takes.
1. Im a computer quiz, a programming super hacker, above all my peers
2. Im good at stats/math
3. I have an IQ well into the right side of the bell curve
4. I dont have a family dragging me down, working 14 hour days for years is not an issue - no wife will divorce me - my children will not suffer without a dad
5. I have built backtesting systems that make tradestation and wealth lab look like pathetic little toys I could never imagine trying to use to find a good edge. A back test that takes 3 months to complete in wealth lab I can do in about 10 minutes.
Given the above advantages I started with, and the freedom to work my ass off, it still took me 3 years to become profitable, it was the hardest challenge of my entire life. I personally only know 1 other real sharp person who I am confident could have been successful at trading if he poured all his blood sweat and tears into it. No one else I have ever personally met has the tools or tenacity to pull it off. Its that hard. This BULLSHIT industry waves fantasy riches in everyones face to sucker them in. I hear people spew all the trading sayings "never double down, its all psychology, the edge is in your head, magic chart patterns " blah blah blah, and I want to puke. So much garbage out there.
Even here , its so obvious who knows WTF they are talking about and its about 1 out of 1000 it seems.
It is very possible that no matter how hard someone tries to become successful at trading, that they will simply lose money for the rest of their lives trying to succeed at it and die broker than if they never traded. Determining if this is you is a very hard thing to do. How long do you go before you throw in the towel? -$40K? -$100K What if 10 years from now you are -$500K and youre not profitable? The kid working at McDonalds just blew by your networth in the meantime.
Unlike all the scammers trying to convince everyone trading is easy, I do not recommend it to any of my friends. No way. Worst thing I could do to them.
The best thing I ever did was to promise myself I would stop trading when I lost a certain amount of money. , $20K. I lost that in 2 years, with lots of starts, stops, pauses, go's.
Then I got serious. Decided I would never trade again unless I knew with an extremely high level of confidence what the behavior of my next 100 trades would be.
What is the probability it would be profitable? By how much? What is this setups %win in the last week? month? year? 5 years? 10 years? Whats the worse loss for this setup in the last week, month, year, years? How has its behavior changed over time? Does it work in up markets, down markets, sideways markets? How does it test during market crashes? Whats the worst possible case? How do I decide if this setup has gone to shit? Add about 100 other statistical points for this "setup" I discovered. Once I knew all this, I finally started trading again, it took a couple of years. Hmmm maybe it took me 4 years to become profitable, my memory has faded. My numbers are approximate.
Now I have multiple systems, trade them every day, and consistently make money with no surprises. I KNOW I will liekly make money this month. I do NOT gamble.
I have literally run millions of backtests.
My best systems probably have at least 500 million backtests run against them. I analyzed them to death.
No compare what you have done to become profitable to what I have done. Anywhere close???
Im not saying my way is the only way. But I played to my strengths. Paper trading and manual backtesting by staring at charts for discretionary trading, to me, is like using an abacus when I have a cray super computer sitting next door.
I have no idea if you have what it takes, but I hope I shed some light on what it could take to turn the corner. I just cant imagine pulling this off with a family. It would have taken me twice as long.
The markets a brutal and efficient, but not entirely efficient. You have to bring something to the plate that is beyond what everyone else is bringing to the plate. Or just dont bother. Save your future earnings.
Traderdragon, you have my utmost respect as a person with dual gifts of extreme intelligence and talent for computer literacy. I have spent enough 1,000s manhours with TradeStation system writing - testing - live trading to realize there is something decidedly lacking for me to create success there.
Like downrivertrader, I rely on the abacus to make a very fine living. I have no ability to quant the type of data you do... it'd be great if I could, but I simply cannot for all of the reasons you stated.
Here's what I do know for sure: intraday price action in the eminis is directional more often than not. Today for example, the ES and ER pulled back into daily pivot points (and other measures of support) with an overall dominant uptrend.
From there they made their way to R2 value (ES) and failed below (ER) respectively in the afternoon. Further breaks of measured support (short term trend lines, etc) after 2.5 days of steady ascension made it quite probable for some type of retracement to follow.
Buying the early dip to support = subsequent rise and/or selling the afternoon break was tech analysis 101. Kindergarten chart reading, no more than that.
Here is what we know for sure: ES and ER tend to move greater than 10pt ranges more days than not, sometimes 1.5x to 2.0x that span. Somewhere inside, price action will swing up or down most - all of that distance. If we get good at (1) filtering probable direction and (2) entering in harmony with probable direction using a +2/-1 or +3/-1 profit/loss ratio, our probable result over any large distribution of trades will be profitable.
**
In all reality, trading really can be simple as downriver describes. Thank God for that, or I wouldn't have had a chance in heck! While I do admire what you accomplished systematically (speaking as one who's been deep, deep in those trenches) I am also happy to say there are those of us still steering our ships by compass instead of GPS.
Last time I checked, the stars above still offer pin-point direction to navigate across this globe same as they have since the dawn of mankind. So goes trading with simple tech-analysis tools. :>)
Like I said, I played to my strengths. I dont doubt that people can find edges using other methods. (Although I suspect it is much harder to prove such a method works compared to my methods. I can dump a pile of data on your desk that would leave 0 doubt in anyones mind. Absolutely zero.)
After all, the brain is an incredible pattern matching computer. We can peer at a face and recognize it instantly, while a super computer could take minutes or hours to do what we consider a trivial task. The flip side of this is, the brain also frequently see's patterns that are not really there. Fooled by randomness, is a frequent occurence.
But, big but, the moment you step outside of the purely mechanical domain, you must also deal with emotional control and discipline to a huge extent. Something which is easy for me. I just watch the computer trade.
Knowing myself, and knowing how thin edges can be, which allow no room for error, I do not believe I have the emotional control and discipline to consistently play every trade perfectly according to plan. I am flawed.
Knowing this weakness in myself, and knowing my strengths, is what eventually forced me to choose my path of super analytical number crunching and pure automated system trading.
I decided to play in the automated space, where I could use my skills to beat the other players also playing the automated space.
I just hope for you, that markets dont get so damn efficient, that the compass stops working. I may have a GPS, but I know for a fact there are guys out there with military grade GPS's which are far more accurate than mine
But for now, GPS is good enough, and the opportunity cost of upgrading to military GPS is too great for me. Maybe one day that will come.
In all reality, trading really can be simple as downriver describes. Thank God for that, or I wouldn't have had a chance in heck! While I do admire what you accomplished systematically (speaking as one who's been deep, deep in those trenches) I am also happy to say there are those of us still steering our ships by compass instead of GPS.
To all thread participants (and lurkers),
I'm sorry it's taken me so long, but I'd like to give you an update on my situation.
Without re-reading the entire thread, I'm pretty sure I spoke about considering taking a (salaried) job. While posting this thread, and after posting it, I continued to pursue this possibility. As I said, jobs where we currently live don't pay enough to make ends meet for a family, at least not at entry level. All the same, I have to put bread on the table, and to jump back into trading as things stand -- well even I know that would be foolhardy. I was very pessimistic about job opportunities, but as it turns out, a few days after posting this thread (I'll return to some of the responses shortly), I got an email from an online company (who had received my resume, such as it is, from an employment consultant I had visited) that they were looking for a writer/editor to provide financial-based content for their website. I checked out their website, and I liked what I saw. It was obvious they were highly professional, motivated, and looking to grow quickly in the world of internet financial portals. Their niche is that they aggregate many top-quality blogs written by hedge-fund managers etc., edit them, at times add editorial comments, and distribute them to interested parties through web and email. I interviewed with them, a relationship was struck, and I took on the job. I'm grateful to be working from home (the editorial content team meets each day in a virtual chat room), and the hours, and degree of flexibility will allow me to continue to pursue trading.
Truth be told, I am enjoying this line of work (dare I say it) more than trading. I research stocks, read and edit the ideas of some pretty sharp minds, and get paid for it, without taking on any risk. Currently, I'm not earning enough money doing it to support my family long-term, and that is why I feel compelled to continue my trading research after-work-hours. However, I feel exceptionally fortunate to be paid (quite reasonably) to do this kind of work, which is stimulating, and, who knows, may even change the way I trade somewhere down the road.
By the way, we provide this information, and there's a wealth of it, free of charge. There's some really great stuff. I'm not comfortable posting the url here, a) because I don't want to come across as a spammer (although I imagine that the fact we don't charge for the info. may take care of this concern), and b) I would rather keep it off this thread. However, if there is interest, and if it's not against ET policy, I could create a new thread with the url and tell you some of what you can find there. The site leans slightly towards investors over traders, and there's not a wealth of TA, but if you want to know what's going on behind-the-scenes with your favorite ticker, I think you'll like it.
To be continued...
So basically, for the last week-and-a-half, I've just been getting up to speed with this job, and have had almost no time to devote to trading, or even to post to this thread.
Getting back to my predicament such as it relates to trading. Aside from the online responses to the thread, a number of ETers responded offline as well. One in particular (A), called me up the very night I posted the thread, after sending me the following PM:
<< I may be willing to Mentor you, only because you have a family and I am concerned for them.
I will keep anything you and I talk about Private.
If you are interested give me your home and cell phone.
I would also need your screen name so I can read thru your previous post.
I have a trading plan that I can teach you in 5 minutes and you will be profitable tommorow, no joke.
I can call you tonight if you are available.
If, and that's a BIG if, I share my trading plan with you, then YOU can NEVER reveal any aspect of it to anyone.
Good Luck whatever the outcome.>>
A, you know who you are. You can imagine that after receiving a PM, I was quite excited. He did call me that very night, and spent a good couple hours with me detailing his plan. He kept saying, "I've never told anyone this before ... I can't believe I'm telling you this." A was so excited for me that by the following Monday (the original post was on a Thursday), he was asking me if I already opened a brokerage account (my present account only allows me to trade futures). I haven't opened an account yet, a) because later that week I received the job offer that whatever little good-sense I have compelled me to take, for my family's immediate security, and b) because, unlike my previous escapades, I wanted to really paper-trade and back-test his method before putting down real money, not because I didn't trust him (he had nothing to gain and no reason to lie to me), but because I had to see that I could trade the method and that it worked for me.
The first day I traded it, it really seemed like magic. I made something like 1.15 trading 1,000 shares. In maybe 20 trades, there were perhaps 6 losers, all less than .08, and a few big trades (the stops are never more than .08). On Tuesday, I was less successful (I think I might have actually lost maybe .40. A told me to change to a different time frame, which I did. At any rate, I obviously can't and won't give you even a clue as to the method, not out of lack of generosity or spite, but because I gave A my word that I would never tell anyone.
I spent a lot of time that week, as well, trying to get the hang of backtesting tools that I had never really used much in my discretionary trading. My distraction with that, as well, prevented me from getting the full benefit from backtesting A's method.
Late that week, I got the job offer, and since then, I have simply been inundated with learning this new line of work. A seems to be making a consistent $1,000-2,000 a day trading his method with the few tickers he gave me, and my goal is now to acclimate myself with his method.
To be continued...
Something smells very fishy here ,i gotta hunch that he is about to do some system selling.
Be very careful if any of you think to do PM shopping with
HappyGoLucky .
Quote from siki13:
Something smells very fishy here ,i gotta hunch that he is about to do some system selling.
Be very careful if any of you think to do PM shopping with
HappyGoLucky .
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
if I was looking to sell systems, would I show up as HappyGoLucky? :O
IMO you shouldn't have even posted this much.
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
One in particular (A), called me up the very night I posted the thread, after sending me the following PM:
<< I may be willing to Mentor you, only because you have a family and I am concerned for them.
I will keep anything you and I talk about Private.
If you are interested give me your home and cell phone.
I would also need your screen name so I can read thru your previous post.
I have a trading plan that I can teach you in 5 minutes and you will be profitable tommorow, no joke.
I can call you tonight if you are available.
If, and that's a BIG if, I share my trading plan with you, then YOU can NEVER reveal any aspect of it to anyone.
Good Luck whatever the outcome.>>
There were others who responded as well. "T" has been sending me annotated charts (he trades YM using S&R). I have been watching his charts, but have been unable to do more than that, due to the reasons I cited above. He asked for nothing upfront, until I would be successful using his methods, at which point we could come up with some suitable compensation.
GTS, I believe you are highly cynical. There are a lot of good people out there. I, for one, don't think there's anything wrong with helping someone else out, and would do so gladly were the tables turned. I believe ultimately when you help others, it comes back to you in some way or another.
In fact, if you open your eyes here on ET you will find real, successful traders helping others every day. You don't even have to go to your PM box or invent a hard-luck story. Just show a willingness to listen and learn.
The thread gave me the chance as well to meet some veteran ET posters (in a virtual sense), which was a fine experience. Again, I won't name names, and after the way I was derided (by granted only a few), I don't blame them for not posting their personal experiences on-thread. But in PM correspondence, they were refreshigly candid about their own experiences; how hard they had to work to become profitable, their failures, etc.
More recently, two amazing posts from Lescor and downrivertrader, that really made me think. Traderdragon's post also got me thinking, no doubt. I hope there is some truth in austinp's rebuttal, that the human trader brings something new to the game that can't be quantified by even a room-full of supercomputers. Because if my only chance in trading is to put my computer programming skills up against the likes of Traderdragon, I'm in trouble.
It didn't escape me that this thread spawned a Desperation2 thread. I don't think it's particularly shameful to ask for help when that help comes in the form of information. If you look around the internet, you will see all kinds of people giving help in all kinds of situations, out of the goodness of their hearts, or even for the satisfaction of knowing you've helped someone else. I daresay people-helping-people may be one of, if not the, mainstay of the internet. I, for one, don't see it as being the same as asking for handouts etc. I also don't see anything particularly mature about gloating in other people's difficulties. I don't think arrogance is a trait that goes well with trading, and when people who claim to be successful traders act arrogantly, immaturely, and callously, I question whether they are no more than posers.
Going over some other posts:
Thunderdog, even before you posted to this thread, you had my respect as a trader and a person. This post, however, has to be one of ET's all-time classics for its eloquence, and I take the liberty of repeating it here for posterity:
"Have you ever noticed how many Little Emperors there are among us who immediately pop up out of the woodwork the moment someone renders himself vulnerable with refreshing honesty and asks for guidance? Rather than address the specific issues raised by the poster, these omnipotents proceed to pass judgment on the lives of people about whom they have read a scant few paragraphs. At the drop of a hat, they will advise you of the limitations that will haunt you for the remainder of your natural life. Oh, what splendid lives these big-picture visionaries must lead from their lofty perches! On the other hand, perhaps they assert themselves here in a manner than they cannot, or dare not, attempt in real life. I think I'll go with door number 2.
P.S. The rest of us can only hope that they trade as adroitly as they dispense advice."
MartyS: As you can see, I did follow your advice. I'm happy I did so. Same to fedge, who said essentially the same thing a few posts earlier.
I think you completely missed my point, I'm not questioning the people that PM'd you.
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
GTS, I believe you are highly cynical. There are a lot of good people out there. I, for one, don't think there's anything wrong with helping someone else out, and would do so gladly were the tables turned. I believe ultimately when you help others, it comes back to you in some way or another.
No, I totally understood your point. I was just saying that, a) there's a lot of help out there without having to make-up hard-luck stories. b) I think only pretty warped people would do so, and you'd probably pick up on it. c) Even if they do, nobody is forcing anyone to help, and if they do choose to help, even some person who felt compelled to make up a story in order to ask, they may still gain from the experience. Thanks at any rate for taking the time to respond.
HGL
Quote from GTS:
I think you completely missed my point, I'm not questioning the people that PM'd you.
I'm wondering if this will encourage other people to make up stories about their hard-luck in order to entice other would-be mentors to PM them with offers of trading help.
Also please note that I'm not saying that your story is made-up, just worried about copycat posters who might see what happened after your post and try to replicate it.
Anyway, good luck with your trading.
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
No, I totally understood your point. I was just saying that, a) there's a lot of help out there without having to make-up hard-luck stories. b) I think only pretty warped people would do so, and you'd probably pick up on it. c) Even if they do, nobody is forcing anyone to help, and if they do choose to help, even some person who felt compelled to make up a story in order to ask, they may still gain from the experience. Thanks at any rate for taking the time to respond.
HGL
Quote from bluedemon77:
I can also understand why somebody with a kind heart would help a struggling newbie move in the right direction.
Chuck
__________________
"For Evil to succeed, it is sufficient that GOOD MEN do NOTHING" Edmund Burke
Computer: P4 2.53GHz, Intel Board D845PESV, 1 GB Ram, WD Caviar HD's, NVIDIA Quadro4 NVS, Logitech Elite Keyboard w/Cordless MX700 Mouse, Win 2000 Pro, System Guardian/XC 2000 Backup, Cyberpower 1500AVR Power Supply, (6) Samsung 191T Flat Panel Monitors-Digital
Quote from HappyGoLucky:
It didn't escape me that this thread spawned a Desperation2 thread. I don't think it's particularly shameful to ask for help when that help comes in the form of information.
Quote from bluedemon77:
... I also cannot understand HGL's motivation to tell us all about this mysterious angel who gave him the key to being successful. Then, how despite his agreement to keep this advice confidential and being too busy with his new job to trade, he goes out of his way to keep this thread going. I don't get it. What's the point?
Chuck
I would think missing the bubble in the 90's would be considered a blessing. Being able to make a quick buck in a one way market would have instilled that "yes, I know what i'm doing, and I'm a trader"
.. and we all know what happened to the johnny-come-latelies during that bubble.
I thank my lucky stars that I had to get the sh*t beaten out of me during the bond chop a few years ago. Made me explore all kinds of different avenues, and now, I have a much broader understanding of not just tsys, but how a lot of things correlate and work in tandem.
good luck,
cbk
(back to lurking)
i find it troublin' that u say u were taught a supposed system u could learn in 5minutes [by a very altruistic eter, ror] and that now u are makin' already good money, i cant believe that for a second. your latest posts smell bad, hope u prove me wrong.
Those that need so much help are beyond help. And this is certainly not a business for leaning on others.
The trouble is that noobs and previous failures say they are asking for advice when what they only want is new encouragement in their failed 'limp dick' quest or in their unrealistic dreamscape.
Not news: failure at succeeding is a constant for all but the few. But nevertheless most may well do good enough but only as employees.
Bottom line: the real world.
Quote from bluedemon77:
... But I cannot understand the motivation of anyone to post messages that basically say "I've found the secret to successful trading and I'm making a bazillion dollars a day with it, but I'm not going to tell anybody else how I do it, just how clever I am for developing it." I also cannot understand HGL's motivation to tell us all about this mysterious angel who gave him the key to being successful. Then, how despite his agreement to keep this advice confidential and being too busy with his new job to trade, he goes out of his way to keep this thread going. I don't get it. What's the point?
Chuck
Quote from Pekelo:
That thread was started by my modesty, and was called a classic by some members. But beside that, you obviously missed its point:
There is a HUGE difference between asking for directions to X street or what kind of monitor should you buy and putting you up in a hotel for the rest of your life for free.
Information is the most important commodity. The correct and timely information can save your life, supposed you have cancer and it is recognized early. It can also make money for you.
You basicly asked for information about a skill that can make you earn a living. Give me just one example where you can get similar information for free, because I would like to give it to homeless or unemployed people.
You don't go to a university and ask them to educate you for free, do you? And you don't ask a carpenter to teach you carpentry either.
If you got useful advice from ETers, good for you. I assume it was more the pity factor rather then anything else, because you are not the first to ask for mentoring. I think I gave you useful advice in this thread too.
I forgot the details of your story and I don't feel like rereading it, but if I recall correctly trading was not really for you. I think you should stick to something else....
And that is the best advice anybody can give you on this board...
Quote from nkhoi:
one, there is the guardian angel, two, you don't have to look far for the clues, Mr. "T" & "A" , get it
Quote from GTS:
Anyway, it sounds like you've turned a corner; good luck with your trading.
Quote from ChiBondKing:
I would think missing the bubble in the 90's would be considered a blessing. Being able to make a quick buck in a one way market would have instilled that "yes, I know what i'm doing, and I'm a trader"
.. and we all know what happened to the johnny-come-latelies during that bubble.
I thank my lucky stars that I had to get the sh*t beaten out of me during the bond chop a few years ago. Made me explore all kinds of different avenues, and now, I have a much broader understanding of not just tsys, but how a lot of things correlate and work in tandem.
good luck,
cbk
(back to lurking)
Quote from Bitstream:
i find it troublin' that u say u were taught a supposed system u could learn in 5minutes [by a very altruistic eter, ror] and that now u are makin' already good money, i cant believe that for a second. your latest posts smell bad, hope u prove me wrong.
Quote from Cheese:
Those that need so much help are beyond help. And this is certainly not a business for leaning on others.
The trouble is that noobs and previous failures say they are asking for advice when what they only want is new encouragement in their failed 'limp dick' quest or in their unrealistic dreamscape.
Not news: failure at succeeding is a constant for all but the few. But nevertheless most may well do good enough but only as employees.
Bottom line: the real world.
, I think it is well-taken. Something I and others should consider when asking for advice. By the time I posted the first post on this thread, I already knew, to some extent, that what I was looking for and what I really needed weren't necessarily one-and-the-same. Still, the process of posting, listening, responding, receving criticism, encouragement, and advice, has been helpful to me. I hope there are others who have benefitted as well.
[QUOTE]Quote from HappyGoLucky:
I myself am not sure exactly what I was looking for.
First problem, you should know what you want. If you don't know, how should we?
Is it a free lunch? Not really (at least I don't think so).
Just take my word for it, it is. Second problem, you have problems with reality.
I just hope others are not as quick to judge you as you do others
It wasn't a quick judgement. It was an evaluation based on your posts and story. It seems you haven't been improving, you don't know what you want and you have problems with the truth.
Not to mention all the trading mistakes...
(ref. Thunderdog's post, and Lescor, who went through a similar situation to mine, and once turning the corner, never looked back).
If he did, I am happy for him. But in cases like yours, examples like his can be a bad thing, because it can make you believe that you can do the same. Some people are just not made to be a trader, carpenter or whatever.
Well, I am willing to try an experience with you. I am going to PM you one of my systems. It is stupifyingly simple. Let's see what you can do with it. I only ask in return to give me feedback how you did with it. Deal?
Talk to Spydertrader
Quote from Pekelo:
Well, I am willing to try an experience with you. I am going to PM you one of my systems. It is stupifyingly simple. Let's see what you can do with it. I only ask in return to give me feedback how you did with it. Deal? [/B]
You really should talk to Spydertrader.
Read Trade in the Zone
I haven't taken the time to read every reply, so maybe this is a repeat of somebody elses suggestion. Anyhow, try reading "Trading in the Zone" and a new book out there now, "Entries and Exits". Sorry to say man, but it's still between your ears.
--Been profitable for 20 years
Re: Read Trade in the Zone
Holy crap, registered 2001 and just now making your second post?!?
Quote from Catalite:
Been profitable for 20 years
Re: Re: Read Trade in the Zone
Quote from GTS:
Holy crap, registered 2001 and just now making your second post?!?
You are the man!
HappyGoLucky, consider yourself very lucky to have this "live by the lake trader" (if my guess is right) taught you how he trades. I read some of his posts and followed some of his trades, it seems that his method was really able to catch some good moves of the day. He reminds me of those very nice people living in midwest during the 60s & 70s, they are nice, hospitable and really eager to help other people. Also doctors only charged you $7 per visit back in those days. Anyway, don't doubt his method & happy trading!
found this old thread
Just stumbled on this old thread, and now that its over 5 years later, I would love to hear an update!
I hope you have good news on your struggles for profitability, and that
mysterious, promising system you were taught.
If you are around, HappyGoLucky, please oblige my curiosity!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v50x...feature=related
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