Forums - How long did it take you...

Forums (http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/index.php)
- Career Trader (http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=24)
-- How long did it take you... (http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=73059)

Posted by Chris Paciello on 07-19-06 03:29 PM:

How long did it take you...

Hello Everyone,

I was just curious on how long did it take everyone before they "got it" - Meaning, was able to make even a little profit on trading. My mentor told me it took him 4 months before he did and then started making around 5k to 10k a month. I understand that it's an ongoing learning process.

Thanks

Posted by Chris Paciello on 07-19-06 04:18 PM:

I was also wondering... What is the best way to choose which company to apply for? I've seen a few places that will hire you with no experience and without any license - but with an initial capital of 5k - and then there is some that will hire you, sponsor you to get all licenses required before you start trading - with no intial capital?

Thank you

Posted by ozzy on 07-19-06 04:29 PM:

It depends on a lot of factors.

** Do you have someone showing the ropes?
** Do you have the right make up?
** Are you under pressure to make money?

I think each case is different and depends on the person, current situation and their enviorment.

In an ''ideal'' situation I think somone can start making money ın 6 months (in stocks) possibly less.

Posted by dac8555 on 07-19-06 05:00 PM:

The best answer unfortunately is it is not a time factor...it is a human factor. it depends on your willingness to be open minded, avoid unessecary risk , and study all the good information you can get your hands on.

Ill give you some good examples.

I am currently reading threads on ET that are astonishing...the ones entitled "markets surge on fed announcement, I am RIGHT" and the other entitled "you must buy INTC now!". THOSE are examples of people that may never "get it"...so based on the personality of those people...I would say the answer would be 5-10 years...maybe never.

But there is enough good info out there to where you dont have to make all the mistakes that have been made in the past...you CAN learn form the mistakes of others which can cut your learning time down significantly if you do your homework. I dont think there is an excuse anymore for "blowing out" for example unless you have a gambling problem.

For me...I think around 6 months. 3 months of loses, and 3 months to make it back....but at that time i still didnt "get it" sometimes you are just out f sync with the market. i still dont "get it"...but my definition of that is strict.

but i think you will find that every now and then...you get a revelation..you truly comprehend what you already knew...but hadnt really applied before. Then you move on to a new level of learning and understanding.

as you stated..you never know it all.

__________________
Dan

Posted by golablue on 07-19-06 05:37 PM:

I think it depends on what you are looking for. If you seek instant gratification from the markets, you may find a "quick fix." If you seek to understand the dynamics of price movement, and develop a comprehension of technical and fundamental analysis, that will take you much longer.

I personally, know too many people who found the quick fix, only to be wiped out as market conditions changed. I took a different route, and although it took much longer, I have been able to operate with much greater consistency through market cycles.

__________________
"I must create my own system or be enslaved by another man's."

Posted by crystalballs on 07-19-06 06:14 PM:

Hello, Chris. You are obviously a beginner, yes, what has your mentor had you doing? Stocks? Do you pay him? How old are you? How much time per day can you allow for the markets? Are you married, have you got kids? Are you interested in the markets? Do you have a job? How much capital do you have? How do you feel about gambling? Why would a firm take you on? Do you believe you can make it?

I personally think you can do it, i honestly think most people can.

It's all about finding your own level.

How much finding is needed and how long it takes is a question only the individual will ever be able to answer.

Good luck and all the best.

Posted by CasperCRF on 07-19-06 07:03 PM:

I'm also interested in this. I always wonder what peoples PNL curve looked like when they made the turn. I was amazed that this guy was profitable after 1 month and never looked back.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...766#post1135766

Posted by skulltrader on 07-20-06 12:04 AM:

Quote from CasperCRF:

I'm also interested in this. I always wonder what peoples PNL curve looked like when they made the turn. I was amazed that this guy was profitable after 1 month and never looked back.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...766#post1135766

Livingstone is the exeption of the rule. I personally know him as he traded with the firm I work with now and he was something else. Not everyone can do what he has done or better said most people can not do what he has done. He is in a whole different category. Hopefully Ill be there soon.

Posted by Chris Paciello on 07-20-06 05:05 PM:

I'm 25 years old. I don't have much capital to start off at a prop firm right now. Until I do, I'm trying to gain all the knowledge I can prior to starting this way I can atleast try to reduce the time before I can make some profit off of it. I don't mean much, even 500/wk would be good enough until I can learn more from it to increase the profits. I would like to get into a firm that does not require intial capital. I am definitely interested in the markets and know that this is what I want to do.

I'm trying to learn so much that I will read this and that but just to find out it doesnt really give me any good base. I just wish I had someone who was successful to show me the way. My mentor didn't really have me to much but just answer a few questions and watch his trades. Sometimes I think the better option is to start off clerking for a trader and learn a little that way and then be a trader.

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks a lot for all your responses. Very much appreciated.

Posted by CasperCRF on 07-20-06 06:08 PM:

Any one else have a PNL sheet from when they first started out?

Quote from skulltrader:

Livingstone is the exeption of the rule. I personally know him as he traded with the firm I work with now and he was something else. Not everyone can do what he has done or better said most people can not do what he has done. He is in a whole different category. Hopefully Ill be there soon.

Posted by JMowery1987 on 07-20-06 06:14 PM:

Quote from Chris Paciello:

I'm 25 years old. I don't have much capital to start off at a prop firm right now. Until I do, I'm trying to gain all the knowledge I can prior to starting this way I can atleast try to reduce the time before I can make some profit off of it. I don't mean much, even 500/wk would be good enough until I can learn more from it to increase the profits. I would like to get into a firm that does not require intial capital. I am definitely interested in the markets and know that this is what I want to do.

I'm trying to learn so much that I will read this and that but just to find out it doesnt really give me any good base. I just wish I had someone who was successful to show me the way. My mentor didn't really have me to much but just answer a few questions and watch his trades. Sometimes I think the better option is to start off clerking for a trader and learn a little that way and then be a trader.

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks a lot for all your responses. Very much appreciated.

First important area of advice.

Don't start this game with high expectations. Ideally? Start with the expectation to break even. It's a much more possible (and definately much easier) way to set a goal and obtain that goal. Expecting 500 a week right off the bat, your already putting high expectations yourself.

I'd say to expect to lose, but then you'd just be too easy on yourself for losses, so try to breakeven at first, learn to accept losses and read Mark Douglas - Trading in the Zone.

Trade 100 shares and set a goal with trading 100 shares, once you hit that goal, go up to 200 shares and then keep going from there.

Starting off at 500 - 1000 shares might sound like fun, and an easy way of making a lot of money, but it will more often than not be a quicker way of losing money and not learning all you can with your start-up capital.

Save up $1,000 to $2,000 and join a prop firm when you are serious, I know several firms that will allow you to trade with $1,000 with 10 to 1, 20 to 1, even 100 to 1, but you want reduced leverage so you can learn and then work your way up.

500 a week goal right of the bat, is a nice way to failure. Why not $50 a week. You make $10 a day, and then you see that you've done better than you thought and earned $100 that week, so you adjust your goal to compensate for what you earned and slowly move up.

Making $100 on 100 shares a pop is going to be quite a challenge.

Posted by hunter111 on 07-20-06 06:37 PM:

Paper traded off and on for a year defining, refining, learning a system- not a perfect one, but one that yields positive results. Then started real money last September- over time I find that I make fewer, more disciplined trades, meaning that they meet my trading criteria 100% or I don't trade. That's the great thing of the market- you never HAVE to trade and forcing trades is a nice way to lose. I was profitable from month 1 of real trading. I'm not trading for a living... yet. That will come with time as I step up my positions over time.

Short answer: 1 year of paper trading.

Posted by Chris Paciello on 07-20-06 09:19 PM:

What's a good paper trading program?

Thank you.

Posted by trade7 on 07-20-06 09:34 PM:

Posted by trade7 on 07-20-06 09:47 PM:

Quote from Chris Paciello:

What's a good paper trading program?

Thank you.

Try Ensign Charts

Posted by Chris Paciello on 07-20-06 10:32 PM:

I almost wish there was a step by step process I can do to learn how to become a trader. I have been taking in so much information from reading here and there and they are too conflicting. I would like someone to show me the way... From start until I can catch the grasp of it.

Posted by Scalpomatic on 03-21-07 06:29 AM:

Best way to find out how long it takes to become profitable at trading...

Save up $25,000 and...
Blow out the account.

That's your tuition to Wall Street.

then...

Save up another $25,000 and obey stop losses at all times, b/c disobeying them is what blew out your first $25k.

then...

7 years after you began trading...the light bulb clicks...and you start turning some sizable profits b/c you finally learned to obey stop loss 100% of the time and you cherry pick your trades according to a PLAN, and you stick with that PLAN because it works for you consistently.

Okay,

so that's how it worked for me...LOL!

Hope this helps,

--Scalpo

Posted by MarkBrown on 03-21-07 01:48 PM:

i think the more times you can blow up the more you learn. i'm a freakin genius!

Mark Brown

Posted by Bullet on 03-21-07 02:07 PM:

Quote from Chris Paciello:

I almost wish there was a step by step process I can do to learn how to become a trader. I have been taking in so much information from reading here and there and they are too conflicting. I would like someone to show me the way... From start until I can catch the grasp of it.

I think it took me about 6 months to become consistently profitable. Though many people do, blowing your account is not a pre-req to "making it" as a trader. I started trading with around 25-40 grand about 7-8 years ago. I think my total drawdown was 10K or so....and knock on wood...I have not had a negative month since about my 6th month.

If you want to learn to trade you need to realize a few things.
1) There is no magic formula.
2) There is no know-all (and tell all) guru.
3) No one will give you their strategy (assuming it still works) that they shed countless hours, tears, and dollars developing.
4) Be willing to lose some money, all the paper trading programs in the world won't prepare you for the emotions involved in trading. Trading is a piece of cake, controlling your emotions is hard as hell.

Good Luck and always think positively!

Bullet

Posted by michaelscott on 03-21-07 03:06 PM:

Controlling your emotions is actually the easy part if you have the right experience. You just have to go through a few good downturns in life to know about emotion control.

As for myself, I have experienced quite a few downturns. These downturns included the death of a good friend, the death of a few family members, getting fired from a few jobs, missing some great opportunities, 9/11, the recession of 2001, my mother/father's divorce, having an important gf leave you (a few times over) etc.

Once you have experienced a really strong downturn in life then the emotional part can be removed.

I feel right now that any downturn cant be any worse then what I have experienced in the past except for maybe getting cancer or having a severe stroke/heart attack. I feel like I have nothing to lose by trading except for time and money.

If all else fails, I will just move to southern california, get a job selling cars and surf. It wont be all that bad. ;)

Posted by Bullet on 03-21-07 05:43 PM:

Quote from michaelscott:

Controlling your emotions is actually the easy part if you have the right experience. You just have to go through a few good downturns in life to know about emotion control.

As for myself, I have experienced quite a few downturns. These downturns included the death of a good friend, the death of a few family members, getting fired from a few jobs, missing some great opportunities, 9/11, the recession of 2001, my mother/father's divorce, having an important gf leave you (a few times over) etc.

Once you have experienced a really strong downturn in life then the emotional part can be removed.

I feel right now that any downturn cant be any worse then what I have experienced in the past except for maybe getting cancer or having a severe stroke/heart attack. I feel like I have nothing to lose by trading except for time and money.

If all else fails, I will just move to southern california, get a job selling cars and surf. It wont be all that bad. ;)

I understand your point, however, you are making the assumption that the emotional stress from one aspect of life is identical (and carries the same weight) as another. Someone with very little money may find monetary uncertainty more stressful than all other matters. Still I know where your coming from.

Bullet

Posted by Scalpomatic on 03-22-07 06:07 AM:

I totally agree.

We learn the most from our mistakes. Unfortunately, for people like me, I have to make the same mistake a dozen times before I start to truly understand the underlying causes of my mistake.

Psychology plays a huge role in trading. EMOTION is a four-letter word to traders. Emotion causes more losses in the stock market than any other factor. I truly believe that.

If you play by the Warren Buffett rules, you buy and hold forever. The reason that works -- the market has an upside bias. Since 1927, the S&P 500 has risen an average of 10% per year. If you buy and hold forever (provided you diversify your holdings), you negate emotion, and your account will rise. Simple fact.

But for those of us who try to beat the market, we have to buy and sell, and that sort of constant decision making can be affected by the two biggest EMOTIONS -- greed and fear.

Greed tells you to shoot for the moon with every trade, ignore stop losses, and refuse to take reasonable profits.

Fear tells you to stay in cash (fear of pulling the trigger) or exit your winners too early.

We've heard all this preaching before...

So then, what is the answer to controlling EMOTION? How do we negate the power of emotion over our trades?

Create a PLAN that gives you consistent profits when it is followed religiously. Stick to the plan. Don't deviate. Don't experiment and try to find a "better plan." Some people will trash me for saying that. They will say it is good to keep experimenting always. Okay, I'll give them that -- but if you do experiment, looking for that plan that yields even better results than the one you are currently implementing, then let me suggest experimenting with paper trades (a.k.a. practice trades) for at least 3 months before you risk even $1 on "your new brilliant plan".

basically, I'm saying that if you have a current trading PLAN that creates a 50% gain on your total account value (TAV) per year, well then, you are kicking the market's ass and have a good thing going. If you think by experimenting you can create a plan that allows you a 75% gain per year on your TAV, by all means, explore your plan. Just make sure to paper trade it for at least 3 months first while you continue to implement your current 50% TAV gain per year plan.

Just my two cents. I've learned the hard way. 7 years of trading...always looking for a better PLAN. Then it just clicked a little while back. I have a solid plan that gives me a 75% TAV gain per year. Why not stick to the plan month after month? Wow...it took me 7 years to learn that? I'm absolutely pathetic. What a slow learner! But at least I am learning. And yes, I have paid my tuition to Wall Street. I blew out one account... took a year off from trading to clear my head. Now I'm back in the game with a new attitude. Not much smarter than when I started, but definitely more experienced.

--Scalpo

Posted by Willleung on 03-22-07 06:50 AM:

Quote from Scalpomatic:

Create a PLAN that gives you consistent profits when it is followed religiously. Stick to the plan. Don't deviate. Don't experiment and try to find a "better plan." Some people will trash me for saying that. They will say it is good to keep experimenting always. Okay, I'll give them that -- but if you do experiment, looking for that plan that yields even better results than the one you are currently implementing, then let me suggest experimenting with paper trades (a.k.a. practice trades) for at least 3 months before you risk even $1 on "your new brilliant plan".

basically, I'm saying that if you have a current trading PLAN that creates a 50% gain on your total account value (TAV) per year, well then, you are kicking the market's ass and have a good thing going. If you think by experimenting you can create a plan that allows you a 75% gain per year on your TAV, by all means, explore your plan. Just make sure to paper trade it for at least 3 months first while you continue to implement your current 50% TAV gain per year plan.

Just my two cents. I've learned the hard way. 7 years of trading...always looking for a better PLAN. Then it just clicked a little while back. I have a solid plan that gives me a 75% TAV gain per year. Why not stick to the plan month after month? Wow...it took me 7 years to learn that? I'm absolutely pathetic. What a slow learner! But at least I am learning. And yes, I have paid my tuition to Wall Street. I blew out one account... took a year off from trading to clear my head. Now I'm back in the game with a new attitude. Not much smarter than when I started, but definitely more experienced.

--Scalpo

Good advice

There is a middle age friend who start around the same time as me. 6 months on, he is still looking. He changed time frames, indicators, systems etc...

Meanwhile, I fellow throught with my systems, refines it, and keep on going. Now, I am on 6 fullsize HSI and he is still one 1 mini.

Posted by MarkBrown on 03-22-07 01:31 PM:

you know the way i look at trading is - i just settle myself with the feeling - i have lost or am going to loose my money trading. that way it settles my emotions where i can just let my systems do its thing.

mark brown

Posted by Bearbelly on 03-22-07 01:41 PM:

I am totally amazed how many successful traders are on this board. The strange thing is the names keep changing except for a few. I guess they leave after couple of months and more successful traders come on board.

Posted by Hyparxis on 03-22-07 07:34 PM:

"Getting it" is a relative term. It all depends on the person.

I have been doing countless hours of research since I began this adventure and the best advice I have found thus far, many times in fact, is to have a solid realistic plan and do not deviate from that plan until you are confident your new plan will be better than your old plan.

The second piece of advice pertained to "where you play" in the market. You might think about looking to play in an area of the market you have specific interest/knowledge in. Learning studies show you are more apt to learn about subjects you care about over those you don't.

The principal idea behind that advice is to specialize in an area and master it before you move on to a new area. Scattered focus leads to misplaced knowledge and lower productivity.

I doubt you are going to find any one particular person to guide you, at least for free anyways. Just do your research in an area you have interest or knowledge in and look for a good stable to work off. Forums like these are great for insight when people are willing to offer it up. I like to call those lil gems "keepers"

Oh and the last thing, I agree totally about not force buying. You just have to accept there will be days where you make no moves. Coincidentally it looks as if I will close out today with 0 transactions, but it isn't 2 yet so who knows.

Posted by Cutten on 12-06-08 10:31 PM:

I'd say it took about 3 years to get a decent feel for things, and keep the basic noob errors to a minimum. Luckily I got that experience while studying & working, so once I went full time I was already a few years ahead of the average beginner.

Posted by mike007 on 12-06-08 11:11 PM:

Why do people keep responding to posts that are over 2 years old? Do you not read the dates?

Posted by bearcats1980 on 12-06-08 11:29 PM:

Ha, and here i was about to respond. Hopefully he's gotten it figured out by now

Quote from mike007:

Why do people keep responding to posts that are over 2 years old? Do you not read the dates?

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:07 AM.