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Posted by gwb-trading on 04-21-12 08:30 PM:

Debtor prisons are back

Jailed for $280: The return of debtors' prisons
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505144_...ebtors-prisons/

Posted by logic_man on 04-21-12 09:21 PM:

Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from gwb-trading:

Jailed for $280: The return of debtors' prisons
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505144_...ebtors-prisons/

A better solution would be to force the person to work off the debt by doing some light admin work, e.g. stuffing envelopes or something simple. That would reduce the costs to the taxpayers of putting the person up in a jail.

Posted by trefoil on 04-21-12 11:39 PM:

Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from logic_man:

A better solution would be to force the person to work off the debt by doing some light admin work, e.g. stuffing envelopes or something simple. That would reduce the costs to the taxpayers of putting the person up in a jail.

No, a better solution would be to eliminate any possibility that a person who owes a debt could be hauled off to prison. What you're proposing is getting a person to work for free to pay off a debt. You may not know this, but that was one of the ways, back in the old days, that a person became a slave. Working for someone else for no compensation other, of course, than what it takes to keep you alive to do the actual work is, you know, that very thing.
Just because the creditor took a chance and lost on that chance doesn't make him entitled to imprison someone and make him work to pay off that debt. I would have thought we all knew this. Apparently not.

Posted by logic_man on 04-21-12 11:58 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from trefoil:

No, a better solution would be to eliminate any possibility that a person who owes a debt could be hauled off to prison. What you're proposing is getting a person to work for free to pay off a debt. You may not know this, but that was one of the ways, back in the old days, that a person became a slave. Working for someone else for no compensation other, of course, than what it takes to keep you alive to do the actual work is, you know, that very thing.
Just because the creditor took a chance and lost on that chance doesn't make him entitled to imprison someone and make him work to pay off that debt. I would have thought we all knew this. Apparently not.

They're not "working for free", they're "working to pay back what they owe".

Last I checked, the history books didn't mention that slaves had borrowed any money from the masters for whom they toiled and thus hadn't incurred any obligations to their masters. This woman did. So, unless you have some super-secret history book which states otherwise, your moralistic diatribe comparing her situation to slavery is completely irrelevant.

I've noticed lately that a lot of people "know" things I don't know. That the things they "know" happen to be completely false doesn't seem to stop them from claiming to "know" them. Odd, but I put up with it because it seems to be endemic to the times and I don't get paid to correct every mistaken notion that crops up in some fool's head.

Posted by peilthetraveler on 04-22-12 12:08 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from trefoil:

No, a better solution would be to eliminate any possibility that a person who owes a debt could be hauled off to prison. What you're proposing is getting a person to work for free to pay off a debt. You may not know this, but that was one of the ways, back in the old days, that a person became a slave. Working for someone else for no compensation other, of course, than what it takes to keep you alive to do the actual work is, you know, that very thing.
Just because the creditor took a chance and lost on that chance doesn't make him entitled to imprison someone and make him work to pay off that debt. I would have thought we all knew this. Apparently not.

So then in your opinion, if someone goes out and gets a bunch of loans, maxes out his credit card and refinances his house to pull all the cash out and then moves to the bahamas to retire...he shouldnt be pursued because the banks, credit cards and mortgage lenders that LOANED him money "took a chance"?

Or how about this...lets say there is a company and you buy a bond from them for $50k at 8% interest and the company decides they are not going to pay it because the CEO needs a bonus this year. Should you just be out $50k because YOU took a chance?

Posted by clacy on 04-22-12 12:34 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from peilthetraveler:

So then in your opinion, if someone goes out and gets a bunch of loans, maxes out his credit card and refinances his house to pull all the cash out and then moves to the bahamas to retire...he shouldnt be pursued because the banks, credit cards and mortgage lenders that LOANED him money "took a chance"?

Or how about this...lets say there is a company and you buy a bond from them for $50k at 8% interest and the company decides they are not going to pay it because the CEO needs a bonus this year. Should you just be out $50k because YOU took a chance?

Yes. That is how a loan works. You lend money and assume risk of default.

Our entire economy benefits from entrepreneurs and lenders being able to take on risk through lending.

How many start ups do you think there would be if one had to go to prison or work off debts?..... Not many

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 12:48 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from clacy:

How many start ups do you think there would be if one had to go to prison or work off debts?..... Not many

Maybe the total number of start-ups would decrease, but would the number of start-ups which succeed actually go down?

Maybe all the threat of prison would do would be to discourage marginal start-ups with no chance of success from ever trying. In other words, not every dumbass with a half-baked idea would quit his job, borrow money and fail.

Which would actually increase economic efficiency because it would keep people with little to no chance of creating a successful start-up doing whatever it is they were doing before.

It's becoming apparent that the opponents of debtors' prisons aren't really all that bright. On that basis alone, they seem like a good idea.

Posted by oldtime on 04-22-12 01:01 AM:

too bad none of you can even comprehend what you read, or you didn't read the article or you are easily brainwashed by the media propaganda.

here, I'll make it easy for you who where educated by the Department of Education. The lady was not imprisoned for owing money. She was imprisoned for not showing up in court.

otherwise, there's a lot of people out there who wouldn't mind three squares a day and a roof over their head if they could get an easy job like stuffing envelopes.

You'll know it is bad when there is a waiting list to get in.

Posted by mgrund on 04-22-12 01:02 AM:

sounds like " Community service" here in UK- u smash up cars, attack some one- the Judge gives u a a community service- all employed by the government- so on the gravy train

Posted by trefoil on 04-22-12 01:11 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from logic_man:

They're not "working for free", they're "working to pay back what they owe".

Last I checked, the history books didn't mention that slaves had borrowed any money from the masters for whom they toiled and thus hadn't incurred any obligations to their masters. This woman did. So, unless you have some super-secret history book which states otherwise, your moralistic diatribe comparing her situation to slavery is completely irrelevant.

I've noticed lately that a lot of people "know" things I don't know. That the things they "know" happen to be completely false doesn't seem to stop them from claiming to "know" them. Odd, but I put up with it because it seems to be endemic to the times and I don't get paid to correct every mistaken notion that crops up in some fool's head.

The Bible? Not well read, are you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bi...ry#Debt_slavery

Posted by BSAM on 04-22-12 01:15 AM:

Hmmm...Let's see here now:

1. Is there a difference between "theft" and "inability to pay"?

2. Isn't the burden mostly on the lender since the lender approved the loan?

3. Shouldn't there be a maximum amount (let's just say $5,000) at which a person knows he could be sent to jail if it can be reasonably demonstrated that he intentionally abused his creditors?

4. Or does it have to be liberal vs. conservative, like all other issues discussed here on ET???

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 01:15 AM:

Quote from oldtime:

too bad none of you can even comprehend what you read, or you didn't read the article or you are easily brainwashed by the media propaganda.

here, I'll make it easy for you who where educated by the Department of Education. The lady was not imprisoned for owing money. She was imprisoned for not showing up in court.

otherwise, there's a lot of people out there who wouldn't mind three squares a day and a roof over their head if they could get an easy job like stuffing envelopes.

You'll know it is bad when there is a waiting list to get in.

I actually did catch that she was put in jail for contempt of court. Even if she had been put in jail for the debt itself, I wouldn't mind.

What is it the jackasses who support abortion always say, "Don't support abortion? Don't have one!" Well, that works for this as well.
"Don't support debtors' prisons? Don't go into debt!"

As far as I'm concerned, bring back Shylock's solution of a pound of flesh. Of course, with the fatasses we've got here in the US, we might need to make that two pounds.

Posted by trefoil on 04-22-12 01:17 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from clacy:

Yes. That is how a loan works. You lend money and assume risk of default.

Our entire economy benefits from entrepreneurs and lenders being able to take on risk through lending.

How many start ups do you think there would be if one had to go to prison or work off debts?..... Not many

I swear, it's actually impossible to underestimate the posters on this forum. Not talking about you, but about the folks who don't seem to understand that credit=speculation, and if you lose, you lose. You don't get to take away someone else's freedom because you made a stupid decision, or just plain got taken out by bad luck. Sheesh.

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 01:19 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from trefoil:

The Bible? Not well read, are you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bi...ry#Debt_slavery

You're going to have to be more explicit about the connection between the Biblical precedents you're citing and the current-day situation. I'm not stupid enough to understand the point you're trying to make.

Posted by trefoil on 04-22-12 01:22 AM:

Quote from BSAM:

Hmmm...Let's see here now:

1. Is there a difference between "theft" and "inability to pay"?

2. Isn't the burden mostly on the lender since the lender approved the loan?

3. Shouldn't there be a maximum amount (let's just say $5,000) at which a person knows he could be sent to jail if it can be reasonably demonstrated that he intentionally abused his creditors?

4. Or does it have to be liberal vs. conservative, like all other issues discussed here on ET???

Credit rating agencies exist precisely to prevent folks who do stuff like this. Most people don't run up debt because they are trying to scam the system. I'm sure there's a percentage, but society long ago made the choice to not allow debt bondage.
I can't believe I'm actually debating this with people who think it's a reasonable choice. It's not.

Posted by trefoil on 04-22-12 01:22 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from logic_man:

You're going to have to be more explicit about the connection between the Biblical precedents you're citing and the current-day situation. I'm not stupid enough to understand the point you're trying to make.

That's fine. You're beyond hope anyway.

Posted by oldtime on 04-22-12 01:24 AM:

Quote from logic_man:

I actually did catch that she was put in jail for contempt of court. Even if she had been put in jail for the debt itself, I wouldn't mind.

What is it the jackasses who support abortion always say, "Don't support abortion? Don't have one!" Well, that works for this as well.
"Don't support debtors' prisons? Don't go into debt!"

As far as I'm concerned, bring back Shylock's solution of a pound of flesh. Of course, with the fatasses we've got here in the US, we might need to make that two pounds.

you crack me up. Now not only does your house get forclosed on, but you also go to jail. So the so called housing crisis becomes the so called incarceration crisis.

this just in, "Not only are millions of people losing their homes, but the government is running out of jail space to imprison them all. Some say we should just let them off Scott free, but others say that would only encourage more defaults. In the meantime, the banks that made these loans are incurring a loss, and that's just not fair."

Posted by clacy on 04-22-12 01:26 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from logic_man:

Maybe the total number of start-ups would decrease, but would the number of start-ups which succeed actually go down?

Maybe all the threat of prison would do would be to discourage marginal start-ups with no chance of success from ever trying. In other words, not every dumbass with a half-baked idea would quit his job, borrow money and fail.

Which would actually increase economic efficiency because it would keep people with little to no chance of creating a successful start-up doing whatever it is they were doing before.

It's becoming apparent that the opponents of debtors' prisons aren't really all that bright. On that basis alone, they seem like a good idea.

What banks are loaning money to "every dumbass with a half-baked idea" for business start ups?

Credit cards, auto loans, etc.... yeah pretty much everyone can get those. But lender beware. You loan money to idiots, you're likely have a high default rate. The risk of default is either secured, in the case of an auto loan, or taken into account with the rate as with credit cards.

If you're not bright enough to understand that if you disincentivize risk taking and entrepreneurship, that there will be strongly negative economic consequences, then you should enroll in a finance or econ class.

Posted by BSAM on 04-22-12 01:30 AM:

Quote from trefoil:

Credit rating agencies exist precisely to prevent folks who do stuff like this. Most people don't run up debt because they are trying to scam the system. I'm sure there's a percentage...

Private credit rating agencies should be outlawed, but that's a whole other story.
True, most people don't run up debt because they are trying to scam the system, but desperate people do desperate things.
At that point, the individual should understand that there is a price for abuse.

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 01:34 AM:

Quote from oldtime:

you crack me up. Now not only does your house get forclosed on, but you also go to jail. So the so called housing crisis becomes the so called incarceration crisis.

this just in, "Not only are millions of people losing their homes, but the government is running out of jail space to imprison them all. Some say we should just let them off Scott free, but others say that would only encourage more defaults. In the meantime, the banks that made these loans are incurring a loss, and that's just not fair."

Sorry I'm not some pussified wimp with a soft spot for every sob story that comes down the pike and that I'm actually the kind of man who built this thing we call "Western civilization", starting in ancient Greece, which losers and parasites are now tearing down all around me. So, even though you'll never win my approval, rejoice in the fact that people of your type have won. The fact that your victory is hollow and that within a few generations without people like me around you'll be back to living in grass huts is my only consolation. At the rate you scum are devolving, it wouldn't surprise me if apes had a more advanced civilization than homo sapiens within a few millennia.

Posted by trefoil on 04-22-12 01:36 AM:

Quote from BSAM:

Private credit rating agencies should be outlawed, but that's a whole other story.
True, most people don't run up debt because they are trying to scam the system, but desperate people do desperate things.
At that point, the individual should understand that there is a price for abuse.

The price is understood on both sides to be either repossession of the property if it's a secured loan, or attempts to collect that still have to stay, under present law, on the legal side of harassment. Credit rating agencies exist to tell potential creditors about who's good and who's not good for the money they get lent. It of course is based on history, so it can, just like that thing called technical analysis, wind up being unable to predict the future terribly accurately. But on the whole, it works as intended.
Financial and non-financial businesses both have an accounting line on their books for bad debts. Somehow the capitalist system has managed not just to survive, but to thrive with the idea that a certain amount of risk is inherent in the process of giving credit.
Once again, something that I would have thought would be blindingly obvious. On ET, apparently not.

Posted by BSAM on 04-22-12 01:38 AM:

Quote from logic_man:

Sorry I'm not some pussified wimp with a soft spot for every sob story that comes down the pike and that I'm actually the kind of man who built this thing we call "Western civilization", starting in ancient Greece, which losers and parasites are now tearing down all around me. So, even though you'll never win my approval, rejoice in the fact that people of your type have won. The fact that your victory is hollow and that within a few generations without people like me around you'll be back to living in grass huts is my only consolation. At the rate you scum are devolving, it wouldn't surprise me if apes had a more advanced civilization than homo sapiens within a few millennia.

(Apes are laughing at us when we're not looking.)

Posted by BSAM on 04-22-12 01:41 AM:

Quote from trefoil:

The price is understood on both sides to be either repossession of the property if it's a secured loan, or attempts to collect that still have to stay, under present law, on the legal side of harassment....

Jail time offers a bit more of an incentive for certain cases.

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 01:42 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from clacy:

If you're not bright enough to understand that if you disincentivize risk taking and entrepreneurship, that there will be strongly negative economic consequences, then you should enroll in a finance or econ class.

How would jail time be a disincentive to an entrepreneur who actually was bringing something of value to the market? It would only be a disincentive to the marginal (as I said in my original response) entrepreneur who was unlikely to succeed.

Those entrepreneurs would self-select against taking out loans, which would mean that banks would never have to even decide whether to give them a loan or not.

The fact that those marginal entrepreneurs, who ultimately fail, get loans now only confirms what economists have been saying for a long time about information asymmetries, i.e. the entrepreneurs likely know they are going to fail, but want to try anyway, and are able to put forth a convincing enough story to get the loan. If the entrepreneur knew that the penalty for exploiting this asymmetry was jail, they'd be less likely to indulge in it.

Sorry that the Econ 101 class you took didn't delve deep enough into these issues. Maybe next semester...

Posted by trefoil on 04-22-12 01:43 AM:

Quote from BSAM:

Jail time offers a bit more of an incentive for certain cases.

...and under current law that's not an option. Hasn't been in the West since the nineteenth century, and since then the West has gotten considerably richer than it was, logic_man's ridiculously puerile screed notwithstanding.
These people are being jailed because of a loophole in the law.

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 01:48 AM:

Quote from trefoil:

...and under current law that's not an option. Hasn't been in the West since the nineteenth century, and since then the West has gotten considerably richer than it was, logic_man's ridiculously puerile screed notwithstanding.
These people are being jailed because of a loophole in the law.

One could just as easily say the West has gotten richer despite those laws, due to the exponential growth in overall productivity created by the various technological revolutions and that had the laws in place prior to the 19th century remained in place, it would have been richer still.

But, we're not talking about Biblical times or the 19th century, we're talking about today. If those laws don't make sense today, who gives a flying fig if they made sense 100 or 2500 years ago?

Posted by oldtime on 04-22-12 01:52 AM:

Quote from logic_man:

Sorry I'm not some pussified wimp with a soft spot for every sob story that comes down the pike and that I'm actually the kind of man who built this thing we call "Western civilization", starting in ancient Greece, which losers and parasites are now tearing down all around me. So, even though you'll never win my approval, rejoice in the fact that people of your type have won. The fact that your victory is hollow and that within a few generations without people like me around you'll be back to living in grass huts is my only consolation. At the rate you scum are devolving, it wouldn't surprise me if apes had a more advanced civilization than homo sapiens within a few millennia.

laugh if you want, but you're the one living in that jungle they call Manhattan. Somewhere there is a real man (not a city wimp) living in a grass hut with nothing on his to do list but to go hunting or fishing.

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 01:52 AM:

Quote from trefoil:

Somehow the capitalist system has managed not just to survive, but to thrive with the idea that a certain amount of risk is inherent in the process of giving credit.
Once again, something that I would have thought would be blindingly obvious. On ET, apparently not.

Yeah, well, maybe if you were more intelligent, you'd realize that beyond a certain point, nothing is "blindingly obvious".

Maybe using rhetorical tricks like calling one's position "blindingly obvious" works with the crowd you usually interact with, but I'm generally indifferent to such linguistic legerdemains. Prove your point logically or assume that it isn't proven at all.

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 01:57 AM:

Quote from oldtime:

laugh if you want, but you're the one living in that jungle they call Manhatten. Somewhere there is a real man (not a city wimp) living in a grass hut with nothing on his to do list but to go hunting or fishing.

Hmm...grass hut on one hand, air conditioned skyscraper on the other. Yeah, I'm going to go with the air conditioned skyscraper as evidence of the more advanced society.

Jeez, Rousseau really got to you people with that whole "noble savage" thing, didn't he?

There's a reason my ancestors gave up that whole way of life. The reason is it sucked.

Posted by SREC on 04-22-12 02:08 AM:

Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from logic_man:

A better solution would be to force the person to work off the debt by doing some light admin work, e.g. stuffing envelopes or something simple. That would reduce the costs to the taxpayers of putting the person up in a jail.

You should try reading the article. She did not owe the debt, she was billed in error.

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 02:10 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from SREC:

You should try reading the article. She did not owe the debt, she was billed in error.

As I pointed out a couple of pages ago, I know. The discussion then turned to the idea of putting people in prison for debts they try to avoid. If you could keep up, that'd be great.

Posted by oldtime on 04-22-12 02:12 AM:

Quote from logic_man:

Hmm...grass hut on one hand, air conditioned skyscraper on the other. Yeah, I'm going to go with the air conditioned skyscraper as evidence of the more advanced society.

Jeez, Rousseau really got to you people with that whole "noble savage" thing, didn't he?

There's a reason my ancestors gave up that whole way of life. The reason is it sucked.

and what exactly is it you have "advanced" to? To each his own, I'm all for freedom of choice. Some think it's more fun eating meat around the fire and being tired from hunting all day and telling stories about the hunt. Others get a thrill out of a limosine ride at 5 mph to a restaurant and then home to watch tv and setting an alarm clock.

Posted by pupu on 04-22-12 02:17 AM:

Who went and got rid of slavery?

We need to bring that back and then you can do and call things by their proper name again.

The south shall rise again!!!!

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 02:28 AM:

Quote from oldtime:

and what exactly is it you have "advanced" to? To each his own, I'm all for freedom of choice. Some think it's more fun eating meat around the fire and being tired from hunting all day and telling stories about the hunt. Others get a thrill out of a limosine ride at 5 mph to a restaurant and then home to watch tv and setting an alarm clock.

Yeah, everyone's a primitivist until he gets pneumonia and needs some antibiotics or his wife's uterus isn't up to the task and she needs fertility treatments.

Spare me the Iron John bullshit, please. It insults both of our intelligences.

Posted by oldtime on 04-22-12 02:36 AM:

Quote from logic_man:

Yeah, everyone's a primitivist until he gets pneumonia and needs some antibiotics or his wife's uterus isn't up to the task and she needs fertility treatments.

Spare me the Iron John bullshit, please. It insults both of our intelligences.

I'll spare you the Iron John bullshit if you'll spare me the living in Manhattan is the pinnacle of success bullshit.

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 03:02 AM:

Quote from oldtime:

I'll spare you the Iron John bullshit if you'll spare me the living in Manhattan is the pinnacle of success bullshit.

Dude, it isn't just me saying that, it's Old Blue Eyes. You gonna argue with Frank?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqlJl1LfDP4

Personally, I'm actually indifferent to Manhattan, but, yes, I do happen to live here. I went for a run in Central Park today, as a matter of fact. I can take it or leave it, though. It's just a place and, even when I walk around here, I find myself disgusted by the sheer amount of loserdom I see. Fat people, ugly people, disgustingly stupid people. But, yeah, it is pretty much true that if you "can make it there", you can "make it anywhere". That's just a brute fact.

Posted by oldtime on 04-22-12 03:22 AM:

Quote from logic_man:

Dude, it isn't just me saying that, it's Old Blue Eyes. You gonna argue with Frank?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqlJl1LfDP4

Personally, I'm actually indifferent to Manhattan, but, yes, I do happen to live here. I went for a run in Central Park today, as a matter of fact. I can take it or leave it, though. It's just a place and, even when I walk around here, I find myself disgusted by the sheer amount of loserdom I see. Fat people, ugly people, disgustingly stupid people. But, yeah, it is pretty much true that if you "can make it there", you can "make it anywhere". That's just a brute fact.

ok, I'll let you off easy on this one. If you can make it against "fat people", "ugly people", and "disgustingly stupid people" (and Lord knows NYC has the best of the bunch) you should be able to "make it" anywhere.

Peoria would be a piece of cake.

Posted by Spike Trader on 04-22-12 03:22 AM:

Quote from oldtime:

laugh if you want, but you're the one living in that jungle they call Manhattan. Somewhere there is a real man (not a city wimp) living in a grass hut with nothing on his to do list but to go hunting or fishing.

Oldtime. . . . will they imprison me when the US defaults on its loan obligations , even though i dont owe anyone any money ? If not , who will they imprison ?
Please take me fishing with you.

Posted by clacy on 04-22-12 03:35 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from logic_man:

How would jail time be a disincentive to an entrepreneur who actually was bringing something of value to the market? It would only be a disincentive to the marginal (as I said in my original response) entrepreneur who was unlikely to succeed.

Those entrepreneurs would self-select against taking out loans, which would mean that banks would never have to even decide whether to give them a loan or not.

The fact that those marginal entrepreneurs, who ultimately fail, get loans now only confirms what economists have been saying for a long time about information asymmetries, i.e. the entrepreneurs likely know they are going to fail, but want to try anyway, and are able to put forth a convincing enough story to get the loan. If the entrepreneur knew that the penalty for exploiting this asymmetry was jail, they'd be less likely to indulge in it.

Sorry that the Econ 101 class you took didn't delve deep enough into these issues. Maybe next semester...

LOL. Clearly you have never run a business.

I have, and do currently (successfully I might add). Please show me a business that is such a no-brainer that you would risk jail time.

There aren't any, and anyone that has run a business knows there is often a VERY fine line between success and failure. If you want to restrict entrepreneurship to only those that are 100% lock guarantees, you would have virtually ZERO entrepreneurship.

I, along with some of our employees have literally hired around 100 employees in the last month because are will be expanding in May. I am confident that this expansion will be profitable, but you never know. One bad move can bring down an entire business. There are many things completely out of your control that can affect a business and cause failure. Weather for example.

I can assure you that if jail time were a consequence of failure, I would not have expanded, and thereby hired these folks.

Why don't you leave it up to my bank (small local, no bailouts) to figure out if they want to loan me money, and not weigh in on their decisions?

Posted by oldtime on 04-22-12 03:36 AM:

Quote from Spiker:

Oldtime. . . . will they imprison me when the US defaults on its loan obligations , even though i dont owe anyone any money ? If not , who will they imprison ?
Please take me fishing with you..

well now you are talking futuristic Hollywood. Yes. When we can no longer pay our debts they start selling us to Foxconn to make Ipods. Then Mel Gibson gets pissed off and leads a rebellion. It is really class B. But eventually they redo it it with George Clooney and Angelina, and it is a big hit. (Angelina is George Clooney's daughter, just thought you should know, because it is not evident until you see the movie.)

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 03:49 AM:

Quote from oldtime:

ok, I'll let you off easy on this one. If you can make it against "fat people", "ugly people", and "disgustingly stupid people" (and Lord knows NYC has the best of the bunch) you should be able to "make it" anywhere.

Peoria would be a piece of cake.

Uh, I've already "made it" in Boston, Chicago and NYC. That tends to happen when your IQ is in the top 1% of the country. That's not me saying that, that's the standardized testing industry saying it. My biggest challenge is the boredom of having to deal with you unevolved allegedly "human" people surrounding me. Most of the time, I look at you all as a joke God is playing on me. But, you are good for taking the other side of my trades, so that makes us even.

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 03:54 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from clacy:

LOL. Clearly you have never run a business.

I have, and do currently (successfully I might add). Please show me a business that is such a no-brainer that you would risk jail time.

There aren't any, and anyone that has run a business knows there is often a VERY fine line between success and failure. If you want to restrict entrepreneurship to only those that are 100% lock guarantees, you would have virtually ZERO entrepreneurship.

I, along with some of our employees have literally hired around 100 employees in the last month because are will be expanding in May. I am confident that this expansion will be profitable, but you never know. One bad move can bring down an entire business. There are many things completely out of your control that can affect a business and cause failure. Weather for example.

I can assure you that if jail time were a consequence of failure, I would not have expanded, and thereby hired these folks.

Why don't you leave it up to my bank (small local, no bailouts) to figure out if they want to loan me money, and not weigh in on their decisions?

Hey, man, why don't you go study up on the concept of "marginal" and then get back to me. Here's a hint. If your business is dependent upon "weather" maybe it's not a business in the modern sense of the word, but it's actually a farm (or a weather forecasting consultancy) masquerading as a business. No shame in that, but let's just be precise in our terminology.

Obviously, I'm not saying to put every failed entrepreneur in jail, but let's not pretend that every failed entrepreneur was just a hair's breadth away from success, either.

Posted by oldtime on 04-22-12 04:03 AM:

Quote from logic_man:

Uh, I've already "made it" in Boston, Chicago and NYC. That tends to happen when your IQ is in the top 1% of the country. That's not me saying that, that's the standardized testing industry saying it. My biggest challenge is the boredom of having to deal with you unevolved allegedly "human" people surrounding me. Most of the time, I look at you all as a joke God is playing on me. But, you are good for taking the other side of my trades, so that makes us even.

Well far be it from me to dispute the "standardized testing industy." With such an impressive name I am sure they know what they are doing. Especially if someone as intelligent as you endorses them. I am somewhat shocked. I would think if you spent any time with them you would be disgusted as to how stupid they actually are.

I agree. For those of us with superior intelligence, boredom can be a big problem.

You might want to check out the guys living in grass huts. They have had centuries dealing with it.

You don't have to go whole hog all in. You could start by taking a walk in Central Park and ask yourself if you would be happier if you owned it and could turn it into a mall.

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 04:07 AM:

Quote from oldtime:

Well far be it from me to dispute the "standardized testing industy." With such an impressive name I am sure they know what they are doing. Especially if someone as intelligent as you endorses them. I am somewhat shocked. I would think if you spent any time with them you would be disgusted as to how stupid they actually are.

I agree. For those of us with superior intelligence, boredom can be a big problem.

You might want to check out the guys living in grass huts. They have had centuries dealing with it.

You don't have to go whole hog all in. You could start by taking a walk in Central Park and ask yourself if you would be happier if you owned it and could turn it into a mall.

They may not know what they are doing, but they know less what they are doing than the remainder of society. But, like Groucho, I am disgusted that the 1% would accept me as a member.

Nearly every time I run through Central Park, my thoughts go to what I will do once I buy it to save NYC from its financial woes. I'll probably turn it into a real life Thunderdome and have bums fight to the death for my amusement. That seems like as good a use as any. If the bums are indebted, all the better. I'll pay off the creditors of the bum who loses. The winning bum is on his own.

Posted by oldtime on 04-22-12 04:10 AM:

Quote from logic_man:

I agree. Like Groucho, I am disgusted that the 1% would accept me as a member. But, the tests don't lie.

Nearly every time I run through Central Park, my thoughts go to what I will do once I buy it to save NYC from its financial woes. I'll probably turn it into a real life Thunderdome and have bums fight to the death for my amusement. That seems like as good a use as any. If the bums are indebted, all the better.

you do realize that we are about to be sent to "chit chat." It happens wherever I go.

Posted by clacy on 04-22-12 04:11 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from logic_man:

Hey, man, why don't you go study up on the concept of "marginal" and then get back to me. Here's a hint. If your business is dependent upon "weather" maybe it's not a business in the modern sense of the word, but it's actually a farm (or a weather forecasting consultancy) masquerading as a business. No shame in that, but let's just be precise in our terminology.

Obviously, I'm not saying to put every failed entrepreneur in jail, but let's not pretend that every failed entrepreneur was just a hair's breadth away from success, either.

My business is not farming, nor is it greatly dependent on weather. That is an example, but there are 1000's of other reasons that are completely out of an owners control that could cause the failure of a business.

In a system where debtors go to jail, you would have little debt. That would basically mean that the only way to expand, or start a business would be to self-finance. That means that a very select few would be able to start businesses, which would in turn reduce competition greatly.

I'm done with this stupid conversation because clearly you have no clue how devastating it would be to drastically reduce risk taking.

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 04:12 AM:

Quote from oldtime:

you do realize that we are about to be sent to "chit chat." It happens wherever I go.

Hey, I'm just along for the ride. To paraphrase Billy Joel, "I didn't start the thread".

Posted by oldtime on 04-22-12 04:15 AM:

Quote from logic_man:

Hey, I'm just along for the ride. To paraphrase Billy Joel, "I didn't start the thread".

yeah, but you do get bored on the weekends

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 04:26 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from clacy:

My business is not farming, nor is it greatly dependent on weather. That is an example, but there are 1000's of other reasons that are completely out of an owners control that could cause the failure of a business.

In a system where debtors go to jail, you would have little debt. That would basically mean that the only way to expand, or start a business would be to self-finance. That means that a very select few would be able to start businesses, which would in turn reduce competition greatly.

I'm done with this stupid conversation because clearly you have no clue how devastating it would be to drastically reduce risk taking.

The problem with your conclusion is that we weren't originally taking about debt incurred for the purposes of starting a business, but debt incurred for the purposes of consumption.

Do you understand the difference? If not, you might want to think about doing so, although, yes, I think that putting disincentives in place to dissuade the marginal entrepreneur wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Remember the "Simpsons" episode with Ned Flanders' "Leftorium"? Well, if that was started with a bank loan, I'm not sure it would have been a bad thing if he'd been denied that loan. Let's face facts, not everyone is cut out to start a business and we shouldn't pretend otherwise.

And the idea that the more startups there are the more competition there is is superficial. Yes, if there are a ton of startups in an industry, there is more competition. Briefly. Then, reality sets in and the less competitive startups begin a price war, lowering prices until they reach marginal cost. That just reduces profit margins for everyone in the short term until those less competitive startups run out of money and fail. Businesses that are viable are perfectly capable of self-financing.

The fact is, I want risk-taking to be prevalent in the economy, but I am not averse to discouraging risk-taking based on false premises.

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 04:28 AM:

Quote from oldtime:

yeah, but you do get bored on the weekends

Obviously. The markets aren't open and there are only so many Manhattan sluts one can screw.

Posted by mgrund on 04-22-12 04:32 AM:

As my grandad always said " never get in debt"- cash is king

Posted by the1 on 04-22-12 04:48 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

What you are referring to is fraud and it should be prosecuted. If you read the article people aren't getting locked up for simply owing a debt; they're getting locked up for contempt of court or ignoring a court order. That is a jailable offense and makes the reason the person ended up in court in the first place a moot point.

Quote from peilthetraveler:

So then in your opinion, if someone goes out and gets a bunch of loans, maxes out his credit card and refinances his house to pull all the cash out and then moves to the bahamas to retire...he shouldnt be pursued because the banks, credit cards and mortgage lenders that LOANED him money "took a chance"?

Posted by AK100 on 04-22-12 10:05 AM:

Sadly it looks the whole of the US is going to become one big debtors prison for some.

There's some law trying to get passed now which has a provision that states if you owe the IRS money your passport can be cancelled.

The Land of the Free (but please read the ever growing smallprint)!

Posted by PHOENIX TRADING on 04-22-12 05:57 PM:

Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from gwb-trading:

Jailed for $280: The return of debtors' prisons
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505144_...ebtors-prisons/

I think that's Effed up.

Lots of abuse in our court/ govt systems IMHO.

we are their slaves and they know it. Best thing is, be a judge, know one, or be as invisible as you can.

__________________
Chance favors the prepared mind. (Pasteur)

Posted by tradin4profits on 04-22-12 06:08 PM:

Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from PHOENIX TRADING:

I think that's Effed up.

Lots of abuse in our court/ govt systems IMHO.

we are their slaves and they know it. Best thing is, be a judge, know one, or be as invisible as you can.

Best thing to do is pay your bills and go to court when summoned, then you will have no problems. Unfortunately most people would rather spend their money on stupid things for themselves instead of being responsible and paying their bills. I am sure this will come as a big suprise to alot of people but If you are an adult you have to sacrifice and be responsible for your actions.

Posted by PHOENIX TRADING on 04-22-12 06:13 PM:

Quote from logic_man:

I actually did catch that she was put in jail for contempt of court. Even if she had been put in jail for the debt itself, I wouldn't mind.

What is it the jackasses who support abortion always say, "Don't support abortion? Don't have one!" Well, that works for this as well.
"Don't support debtors' prisons? Don't go into debt!"

As far as I'm concerned, bring back Shylock's solution of a pound of flesh. Of course, with the fatasses we've got here in the US, we might need to make that two pounds.

Guess you've never had someone magically declare you owed them something until it was turned over to a collections agency.

facts:
1) I never got the bills they claimed they sent.
2) Never heard about the supposed debt until contacted by the collection agency. By that time the charges for non payment were 3-4x the original bill.
3) I paid in full to the collection agency that day on the phone just to stop it from getting worse. I can just imagne if I didn't get the court notice to appear for a bill I never (knowingly) agreed to (nor disclosed in any way), never got.

This was a result of a medical bill.
The problem is you get bills from people you never met, never were told would be doing work on your behalf etc etc.

When I take my car in for repairs I get one bill not:
1) separate bills from the mechanic
2) parts store
3) parts store driver
4) junk yard consult
5) some photographer
6) oil technician analysis

__________________
Chance favors the prepared mind. (Pasteur)

Posted by pupu on 04-22-12 06:15 PM:

What is this nonsense?

Where are the good old days where if you didn't pay your debts they'd break your legs? Or even the older still days when they chopped off your noggin?

Kids these days...Now go cut me a switch!

Posted by PHOENIX TRADING on 04-22-12 06:31 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from tradin4profits:

Best thing to do is pay your bills and go to court when summoned, then you will have no problems.

It would be nice if things were that easy.

Now who do I sue if I'm summoned to court for a bill that is not valid.
Who is my employer going to sue for the loss of productivity.
Is the state gonna pay me back?

which reminds me of a separate story

This is a true story I did some work for the state (3-4 Yrs ago )they sent me a check and it FRICKEN BOUNCED.

It cost me 35$ for insufficient funds because their fricken check to me bounced!

I was very tempted to submit it back to them as state income tax paid.

They finally paid me but guess what, they never reimbursed me for the bounced check fee.

I won't work for the sorry bastids anymore.

__________________
Chance favors the prepared mind. (Pasteur)

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 06:39 PM:

Anyone who wants to understand the real relationship of debtor and creditor and how it is the foundation of civilization needs to read this. Everything else is just superficial blather.

http://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/Nie.../genealogy2.htm

Posted by number22 on 04-22-12 07:04 PM:

There are many good reason why debtor prison are abolished before. Religious nuts and imbecile would never study it before commenting.

All debt have risk, including US government debt, creditor has responsibility only give out creditworthy debts. There are hidden agendas to host tax payers worldwide to pay bad debts.

Police and court system getting paid to stuff people in its jail.

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 07:12 PM:

Quote from number22:

There are many good reason why debtor prison are abolished before. Religious nuts and imbecile would never study it before commenting.

All debt have risk, including US government debt, creditor has responsibility only give out creditworthy debts. There are hidden agendas to host tax payers worldwide to pay bad debts.

Police and court system getting paid to stuff people in its jail.

Ah, the old "you don't know what my arguments in favor of my position are" gambit, combined with a little "conspiracy theory" twist.

Boring.

Sorry, I will side with Nietzsche's approach (debtors' prisons are fine because the punishment fits the crime) over yours. I think he was just a little bit more knowledgeable about history and human nature than you.

Posted by tradin4profits on 04-22-12 07:21 PM:

Quote from PHOENIX TRADING:

Guess you've never had someone magically declare you owed them something until it was turned over to a collections agency.

facts:
1) I never got the bills they claimed they sent.
2) Never heard about the supposed debt until contacted by the collection agency. By that time the charges for non payment were 3-4x the original bill.
3) I paid in full to the collection agency that day on the phone just to stop it from getting worse. I can just imagne if I didn't get the court notice to appear for a bill I never (knowingly) agreed to (nor disclosed in any way), never got.

This was a result of a medical bill.
The problem is you get bills from people you never met, never were told would be doing work on your behalf etc etc.

When I take my car in for repairs I get one bill not:
1) separate bills from the mechanic
2) parts store
3) parts store driver
4) junk yard consult
5) some photographer
6) oil technician analysis

I have had that happen to me before but when you hear from the collection agency if you owe the bill pay it...if you dont, then make them prove you do . It's really a simple matter.

Posted by number22 on 04-22-12 08:41 PM:

Quote from logic_man:

Ah, the old "you don't know what my arguments in favor of my position are" gambit, combined with a little "conspiracy theory" twist.

Hey douchbag, when companies rack up bad debts and go chapter 11, should company's directors go to prisons? or should tax payer to pay for its debts? where is your logic?

Posted by PHOENIX TRADING on 04-22-12 08:41 PM:

Quote from number22:

Police and court system getting paid to stuff people in its jail.

We see far too much of that with drug courts, testing , parole etc etc.

Drugs are a big money maker and excuse for law enforcement police state attitude towards citizens.

__________________
Chance favors the prepared mind. (Pasteur)

Posted by logic_man on 04-22-12 08:44 PM:

Quote from number22:

Hey douchbag, when companies rack up bad debts and go chapter 11, should company's directors go to prisons? or should tax payer to pay for its debts? where is your logic?

Bankruptcy is a completely separate topic. Try to stay focused, OK?

Posted by PHOENIX TRADING on 04-22-12 08:46 PM:

Quote from tradin4profits:

I have had that happen to me before but when you hear from the collection agency if you owe the bill pay it...if you dont, then make them prove you do . It's really a simple matter.

I paid it, but of course I was padding the collection companies coffers which really wasn't my responsibility. I probably should have paid the biller directly but it was under $300 which was easy for me to pay but not everybody can afford to look at 300$ as petty cash.

__________________
Chance favors the prepared mind. (Pasteur)

Posted by jaley on 04-22-12 10:05 PM:

Debtor's prisons prey on basic human instinct of one group, while benefiting the carnal desires of another group. There will always be many people that will fall prey to greed over logic. The lender is also being greedy, looking to make a profit off money with no risk. The most logical solution is to not give something away if you don't want to risk losing it.

This is really what Christianity is about. The old, barbaric, "eye for an eye" vs. intelligence, compassion, and trying to help mankind overcome their problems. Unfortunately, many people today have been taught that the Bible is a literal history book where God is going to come and save them, instead being taught as a work of spirituality/philosophy. Ancient peoples were just as intelligent as we are today, and some of them are regarded as the most brilliant philosophers in we know.

Posted by piezoe on 04-23-12 12:11 AM:

Quote from Spiker:

Oldtime. . . . will they imprison me when the US defaults on its loan obligations , even though i dont owe anyone any money ? If not , who will they imprison ?
Please take me fishing with you..

The U.S. can never default on its loan obligations. It can always pay, but perhaps with worthless money.

Posted by PARACLESE on 04-23-12 07:35 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from logic_man:

They're not "working for free", they're "working to pay back what they owe".

Last I checked, the history books didn't mention that slaves had borrowed any money from the masters for whom they toiled and thus hadn't incurred any obligations to their masters. This woman did. So, unless you have some super-secret history book which states otherwise, your moralistic diatribe comparing her situation to slavery is completely irrelevant.

I've noticed lately that a lot of people "know" things I don't know. That the things they "know" happen to be completely false doesn't seem to stop them from claiming to "know" them. Odd, but I put up with it because it seems to be endemic to the times and I don't get paid to correct every mistaken notion that crops up in some fool's head.

I guess youve never heard of a serf, huh, logic-man

Posted by logic_man on 04-23-12 07:56 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Debtor prisons are back

Quote from PARACLESE:

I guess youve never heard of a serf, huh, logic-man

First someone brings up bankruptcy and now you're bringing up serfs?

Hey, the topic is DEADBEAT DEBTORS, OK?

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