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Greece....how can they...
survive given the fact their own people are causing damage from riots, and they are not working due to strikes...police are on overtime, etc.
How can this country get out of this mess given these facts ?
This is economically damaging stuff they're doing.
__________________
"Success in the markets runs counter to everything we have been taught...and if you want a friend on Wall Street, get a dog"
They won't without leaving the EU, IMO. They agreed to austerity. Wait to see if they actually follow through with that, when election time rolls around.
If they leave the EU, who in the heck is going to buy their debt obligations ? Some hedge funds seeking high returns ?
Who else would take the chance of default ?
__________________
"Success in the markets runs counter to everything we have been taught...and if you want a friend on Wall Street, get a dog"
Quote from clacy:
They won't without leaving the EU, IMO. They agreed to austerity. Wait to see if they actually follow through with that, when election time rolls around.
__________________
hope for the best
prepare for the worst
Quote from syswizard:
If they leave the EU, who in the heck is going to buy their debt obligations ? Some hedge funds seeking high returns ?
Who else would take the chance of default ?
__________________
hope for the best
prepare for the worst
Quote from syswizard:
If they leave the EU, who in the heck is going to buy their debt obligations ? Some hedge funds seeking high returns ?
Who else would take the chance of default ?
Quote from clacy:
If they leave the EU, they can weaken their currency and bolster their #1 asset..... tourism.
__________________
"Success in the markets runs counter to everything we have been taught...and if you want a friend on Wall Street, get a dog"
Germany convinced countries in Europe that it will unite to one country and gave them a common currency only to milk them and now try to lend them money so it can pay its huge debt obligations in excess of 2.5 trillion.
That Germany milked PIIGS is evident from the chart in this link:
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-to-eurogeddon/
PIIGS deficit = Germany surplus.
Re: Greece....how can they...
Quote from syswizard:
survive given the fact their own people are causing damage from riots, and they are not working due to strikes...police are on overtime, etc.
How can this country get out of this mess given these facts ?
This is economically damaging stuff they're doing.
Quote from syswizard:
Makes sense....debtors win effectively because foreign holders get paid back with a currency that yields less in their native currency.
Do I have this right ?
I know this is strictly anecdotal but they were doing interviews of Greek citizens and they asked this one woman what she thought of the austerity measures and she complained they can't lower the salaries to the point where an average family cannot.... and this is where I thought she was going to say, provide for basics like shelter and food....no, what she said is "afford a 5 day vacation once per year".
Vacations are fine but it struck me how out of touch the Greek people are - do they really not comprehend that many of the things they have become accustomed to are not entitlements? There is a 20% unemployment rate and this woman is worried about being able to afford her yearly vacation trip?
Re: Greece....how can they...
Quote from syswizard:
survive given the fact their own people are causing damage from riots, and they are not working due to strikes...police are on overtime, etc.
How can this country get out of this mess given these facts ?
This is economically damaging stuff they're doing.
Quote from Rationalize:
Borrow in gold. Repay in lead. It's alchemy, Greek style.
Quote from GTS:
Vacations are fine but it struck me how out of touch the Greek people are -
Greece is my motherland. I will probably retire there.
Outside the cities nobody cares. It is and always be agrarian in the countryside. They dont get any welfare and they dont expect anybody to feed or pay them a salary.
The city Greeks got lazy, like the fat dog you just keep feeding with no expectation of earning its keep. Once they accept that the government has run out of money, they will return to roots. This will eventually happen in all the debt burdened countries also.
Denial
Anger
This is where the Greek people are right now..in between stage 3-4 of the 5 stages of denial
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance
LOL, dangerous huh?
Quote from intradaybill:
Why are you making such a gross generalization from an interview of one person to what 10 million people think in a country? Your thinking is dangerous.
Quote from Crispy:
Greece is my motherland. I will probably retire there.
Outside the cities nobody cares. It is and always be agrarian in the countryside. They dont get any welfare and they dont expect anybody to feed or pay them a salary.
The city Greeks got lazy, like the fat dog you just keep feeding with no expectation of earning its keep. Once they accept that the government has run out of money, they will return to roots. This will eventually happen in all the debt burdened countries also.
__________________
Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16981897
Drachmas anyone?
Quote from Martinghoul:
This is what this article seems to suggest as well:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/m...s-live-now.html
Quote from Crispy:
Greece is my motherland. I will probably retire there.
Outside the cities nobody cares. It is and always be agrarian in the countryside. They dont get any welfare and they dont expect anybody to feed or pay them a salary.
The city Greeks got lazy, like the fat dog you just keep feeding with no expectation of earning its keep. Once they accept that the government has run out of money, they will return to roots. This will eventually happen in all the debt burdened countries also.
Quote from d08:
The countryside depends on EU subsidies.
In 2004, Greece had 2% of the farmland in the EU but got 6% of the subsidies. While these statistics are skewed because of the enlargement, it does illustrate the point.
I agree with the rest though.
The funniest thing is that the Eurozone countries who joined EU in 2004 have had to fund the Greek bailout. These countries have much lower living standards, think about that for a second.
For the Americans, that's like Alabama paying billions to bail out California.
Quote from Crispy:
Good piece. Thanks for posting, I had not seen it.
__________________
Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness...
Quote from Martinghoul:
It is a very good piece... Grim reality, with occasional glimmers of hope here and there. That's probably what life is like.
Like the song says " one day older and deeper in debt"
It's capitalism gone mad. The many suffer so the few have got so much money they can't spend it all.
or
was it those socialists over spending again ?
a bit of both imho
Quote from d08:
The countryside depends on EU subsidies.
In 2004, Greece had 2% of the farmland in the EU but got 6% of the subsidies. While these statistics are skewed because of the enlargement, it does illustrate the point.
I agree with the rest though.
The funniest thing is that the Eurozone countries who joined EU in 2004 have had to fund the Greek bailout. These countries have much lower living standards, think about that for a second.
For the Americans, that's like Alabama paying billions to bail out California.
Greece owes so much it's impossible for them to ever pay it.. They also have a history of defaulting a few times per century so who loaned them so much that it's twice their GNP?
Are there intervention teams that can operate on an international level? You trick the leaders of Greece into going to a meeting and when they get there all the other countries leaders have prepared letters that they read out loud about how loved they are but if they won't stop being credit addicts they are getting cut out of everybody's lives...
Its really hard to tell from your post which side of the issue you stand on, could you make your biases more clear?
Quote from intradaybill:
When Greece joined the EU they were offered money packages to reduce their agricultural production so other countries could compete with the Greek cheap products. They were offered incentives to destroy farmland in exchange for cash to buy German cars. As a result the high current account deficit.
When they got the euro they lost the right to devalue currency and be competitive, they were left with reduced farmland, privatized industries bought by Germans and cash incentives not to grow certain products so that Spanish, Italians and other countries can have a competitive advantage. The Greek politicians accepted all that possibly in exchange for positions and support from the EU while the country current account balance was growing along with the debt.
Similar situations happened in other countries. The result was Germany owing the Greek Telecommunications, main Athens Airport and other key businesses they bought by forcing Greeks to do privatizations in the name of free markets while keeping their own industry under heavy government control.
The story is much more complicated and it shows the way the Germans handled power within the EU and drive other countries to default with the objective of buying them cheap and getting their resources.
Also, some of you do not know that Germany defaulted in 1952 (I think then) and Greece was one of the poor and destroyed countries by Nazis then that actually shared the cost of the funding to rebuild Germany.
Germany still owes Greece about half a trillion dollars from war reparations and refuses to pay it.
Quote from intradaybill:
No, you are of course wrong and it seems you have no idea how the EU works. Please do not make false analogies.
When Greece joined the EU they were offered money packages to reduce their agricultural production so other countries could compete with the Greek cheap products. They were offered incentives to destroy farmland in exchange for cash to buy German cars. As a result the high current account deficit.
When they got the euro they lost the right to devalue currency and be competitive, they were left with reduced farmland, privatized industries bought by Germans and cash incentives not to grow certain products so that Spanish, Italians and other countries can have a competitive advantage. The Greek politicians accepted all that possibly in exchange for positions and support from the EU while the country current account balance was growing along with the debt.
Similar situations happened in other countries. The result was Germany owing the Greek Telecommunications, main Athens Airport and other key businesses they bought by forcing Greeks to do privatizations in the name of free markets while keeping their own industry under heavy government control.
The story is much more complicated and it shows the way the Germans handled power within the EU and drive other countries to default with the objective of buying them cheap and getting their resources.
Also, some of you do not know that Germany defaulted in 1952 (I think then) and Greece was one of the poor and destroyed countries by Nazis then that actually shared the cost of the funding to rebuild Germany.
Germany still owes Greece about half a trillion dollars from war reparations and refuses to pay it.
__________________
hope for the best
prepare for the worst
Quote from GTS:
Its really hard to tell from your post which side of the issue you stand on, could you make your biases more clear?
__________________
hope for the best
prepare for the worst
asia stated they're not going to bail anyone out from europe. Western control has very little to do with it.
Quote from noone3:
IMHO, there is vast interest in this country, and this is exactly why all this is happening right now.
There has been Asian and Russian interest already. There are other ways to fund the debt in ways sustainable for the ppl, but for now it is under western control unfortunately
I'm brushing up on my German - they are taking over Europe as we knew it !
EIN ZWEI
EIN ZWEI
EIN ZWEI
Heil Frau Frumpy
Quote from intradaybill:
Similar situations happened in other countries. The result was Germany owing the Greek Telecommunications, main Athens Airport and other key businesses they bought by forcing Greeks to do privatizations in the name of free markets while keeping their own industry under heavy government control.
The story is much more complicated and it shows the way the Germans handled power within the EU and drive other countries to default with the objective of buying them cheap and getting their resources.
.
Selectively presenting "facts" to support a one-sided viewpoint is an example of having a bias.
Quote from noone3:
These are facts, not biases
Quote from Humpy:
. Make sure one's politicians don't sell-out to the competition and lose jobs etc. They aren't interested in the companies that need saving, oh no, only the best companies are bought and then stripped usually !
The political class in Greece conflated the idea of income and debt and treated both as revenue. That worked so long as new debt was forthcoming. Now, that new debt is not forthcoming the political class is forced to confront a basic truth, and this is the key to Greek future prospects. That truth is that income is different from debt. You cannot repay debt with debt; it requires income. The present schemes really do not fully grasp this basic truth as they are all schemes to pay debt with debt and the pretense is that the income to pay the old debt and the new debt will come from 'austerity.' The hard realization that must be admitted before Greece can move on is that reduced spending is not 'income' either. 'Austerity' is not a substitute for growth; it is a failure to grow. 'Austerity' is not income; it is a failure to produce income. So, you can't pay debt with 'austerity' either.
This leaves Greece with only one solution. It has to create a plan to grow and then it can pay only so much debt as the growth plan will allow...the rest has to be written off; it cannot be paid. This is a difficult position becuase they will have to go through a transition with no functioning currency. They have few basic industries that are poised for growth. Tourism has never been a path to success and the failure of the currency and related social unrest will contract tourism before low prices will allow it to come back. Nonetheless, there is an inevitabilty that default will occur and credit will contract making the economy shrink to a clearing point before it can grow again.
Quote from intradaybill:
No, you are of course wrong and it seems you have no idea how the EU works. Please do not make false analogies.
When Greece joined the EU they were offered money packages to reduce their agricultural production so other countries could compete with the Greek cheap products. They were offered incentives to destroy farmland in exchange for cash to buy German cars. As a result the high current account deficit.
When they got the euro they lost the right to devalue currency and be competitive, they were left with reduced farmland, privatized industries bought by Germans and cash incentives not to grow certain products so that Spanish, Italians and other countries can have a competitive advantage. The Greek politicians accepted all that possibly in exchange for positions and support from the EU while the country current account balance was growing along with the debt.
Similar situations happened in other countries. The result was Germany owing the Greek Telecommunications, main Athens Airport and other key businesses they bought by forcing Greeks to do privatizations in the name of free markets while keeping their own industry under heavy government control.
The story is much more complicated and it shows the way the Germans handled power within the EU and drive other countries to default with the objective of buying them cheap and getting their resources.
Also, some of you do not know that Germany defaulted in 1952 (I think then) and Greece was one of the poor and destroyed countries by Nazis then that actually shared the cost of the funding to rebuild Germany.
Germany still owes Greece about half a trillion dollars from war reparations and refuses to pay it.
Greece... the PIIGS... America... it's all a circle jerk.
Debt financing should be for EMERGENCIES... like WWII... or VITAL ESSENTIALS... like building the power grid, interstate highway system.
Living on "debt to support consumption for political favor" is immoral and corrupt.
Can't we all learn from our mistakes... from history... and live within our means?
Of course we won't ever be able to alter our present course... only a BLOODY REVOLUTION will change that... Can't we be half-intelligent and learn from history? Or does GREED overwhelm us regardless of intellect? (That is, we're really just "stupid, greedy little FUCKS who can't help ourselves")?
Greece's token "austerity" is just a band-aid... once they burn through the borrowed sums and guarantees, we'll be having this crisis all over again. The ONLY solution is to wean the "parasites off of the tit"... so to speak. Not likely to happen without a revolution, IMV.
Interesting article: "Does Germany Owe Greece $95 Billion from WW II?"
Quote from d08:
You must be Greek to mention some ridiculous "half a trillion dollars", a number taken from air and having no meaning whatsoever.
The greeks came into Europe with a bunch of lies in 2001.
Now they say: Hey, we had to lie because otherwise it would be impossible to join the EU.
I hope they all starve over there. I have zero respect for a bunch of people avoiding taxes like hell, lying and cheating in every way possible and then expecting the other countries in the EU to bail them out.
Forget about them, they are meaningless in Europe. Let's kick them out and just forget about them.
I went there on travel once, never going back again. The seawater is cold and the wind to fast ;-) also, greek women have strange legs. I know it sounds weird but like every greek women I looked at her legs, they all had these messed up legs.
Quote from GTS:
Interesting article: "Does Germany Owe Greece $95 Billion from WW II?"
http://www.time.com/time/world/arti...2093990,00.html
History is written by the winners of the war.
Umm, I think you are confused about how it works. Greece was on the side of the Allies, who won WW2. The winners of a war gets paid, not the losers.
Quote from d08:
How much should the US pay for attacking civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Attack on Pearl Harbor was directed at military targets, so it was clearly unjust retaliation from the US.
I could bring many more examples but I guess I've made my point.
Quote from traderslair:
I hope they all starve over there.
Greece stole hundreds of millions annually, in agricultural subsidies, by lying about their agricultural production. why did the germans etc. tolerate this situation. who in germany benefited?
Quote from zdreg:
Greece stole hundreds of millions annually, in agricultural subsidies, by lying about their agricultural production. why did the germans etc. tolerate this situation. who in germany benefited?
Quote from morganist:
They put up with it because they wanted them to join the EU.
Quote from zdreg:
your answer begs the question.Greece was part of the EU.
why did Germany +northern europe tolerate false agricultural numbers. the result was vast overpayment of subsidies.
Quote from GTS:
Umm, I think you are confused about how it works. Greece was on the side of the Allies, who won WW2. The winners of a war gets paid, not the losers.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were retaliation for Pearl Harbor?!?
Quote from Crispy:
This speaks volumes about you as a human being. Well...less than human in your case.
Quote from traderslair:
If you think that you greeks can get away with it, stealing money from other Europeans by lying and cheating without pissing other Europeans like me off, think again.
Bookings for tourism in greece are already down 25% for the moment. And I'm happy for it.
I tell everybody who wants to hear it how normal greek citizens cheated everything and everybody to earn more money. Well, I guess you greeks will receive what you deserve.
No because I can assure you that Europeans are fed up with the greeks and their cheating, so you might as well open your bar and drink your own booz.
Quote from traderslair:
If you think that you greeks can get away with it, stealing money from other Europeans by lying and cheating without pissing other Europeans like me off, think again.
Bookings for tourism in greece are already down 25% for the moment. And I'm happy for it.
I tell everybody who wants to hear it how normal greek citizens cheated everything and everybody to earn more money. Well, I guess you greeks will receive what you deserve.
Quote from Crispy:
I am an American citizen. The discussion really ends there...lol
Quote from d08:
1. Greece agreed to take the euro as they also benefited from a stable currency.
2. The fact that Greek businesses (and government) are ran so badly, is not the fault of the Germans.
3. The Greeks elected the same politicians who made these decisions and here we are now. They aren't victims as you portray them.
You must be Greek to mention some ridiculous "half a trillion dollars", a number taken from air and having no meaning whatsoever. How many trillions does the US with allies owe to Iraq and Afghanistan then?
__________________
hope for the best
prepare for the worst
Quote from morganist:
You mean Americans don't care about anything but Americans?
Surely not?
Quote from Crispy:
Are you dim or just looking to fight someone?
Europeans, self righteous know-it-alls, surely not?
Quote from noone3:
http://www.greece.org/blogs/wwii/?page_id=220
http://archives.lesechos.fr/archive...01458716889.htm
Enjoy
Quote from morganist:
America is not in a much better state than the EU. It is just on a longer fuse.
Quote from trefoil:
If this is really true, then why is Greece negotiating anything? They should just demand repayment of this loan. Something isn't adding up.
The refinancing due in March is for a lot less.
Quote from noone3:
http://www.greece.org/blogs/wwii/?page_id=220
http://archives.lesechos.fr/archive...01458716889.htm
Enjoy
Quote from d08:
There's literally no point of you posting articles in French to an English forum, topics like these can't be easily machine translated.
Greece.org isn't a viable website, the opinion of one French economist doesn't make it valid either. Eastern Europe suffered much more under both occupations, it isn't even comparable.
It's of course funny that Greeks need to go as far back as the 1940s to justify their out of control spending.
Quote from trefoil:
Not the point. The site is talking about a wartime loan that has yet to be repaid. That's a legal obligation, it's not reparations. With interest it easily covers Greece's upcoming obligation.
Quote from d08:
How much has Greece gotten as subsidies over the years, from the EU budget. And you know who the main contributor to the budget is, right?
While clearly the numbers differ, that has to be taken into account.
The half a trillion number is published only by one French economist, I wouldn't take it at face value.
The Greeks falsified numbers to gain entry into the Eurozone, that's why the uproar from the north is happening now. Those "evil" germans, finns and dutch. Right.
Interesting read:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/...ce-eurozone-gdp
Quote from d08:
There's literally no point of you posting articles in French to an English forum, topics like these can't be easily machine translated.
Greece.org isn't a viable website, the opinion of one French economist doesn't make it valid either. Eastern Europe suffered much more under both occupations, it isn't even comparable.
It's of course funny that Greeks need to go as far back as the 1940s to justify their out of control spending.
__________________
hope for the best
prepare for the worst
Quote from d08:
1. Greece agreed to take the euro as they also benefited from a stable currency.
2. The fact that Greek businesses (and government) are ran so badly, is not the fault of the Germans.
3. The Greeks elected the same politicians who made these decisions and here we are now. They aren't victims as you portray them.
You must be Greek to mention some ridiculous "half a trillion dollars", a number taken from air and having no meaning whatsoever. How many trillions does the US with allies owe to Iraq and Afghanistan then?
Quote from d08:
While not directly, and officially it was to "end the war", this was what pushed them to use nuclear weapons.
As far as I know, much of eastern europe actually sided with the allies.
But the "history is written by the winning side" comment is very much right of course, the tables might just turn though.
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