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Posted by travelingtrader on 02-07-12 05:33 PM:

What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

By independent trader I am talking about someone that only trades their own money. Not someone that manages other people's money. Obviously lots of hedge fund managers and money managers have gotten very rich from trading but they were trading with other people's money.

Have any independent traders ever made $100 million, $250 million, half billion or even billion dollar fortunes just trading THEIR OWN money?

If so who are these independent traders and what are their stories?

Posted by atticus on 02-07-12 05:35 PM:

Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

Quote from travelingtrader:

What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

By independent trader I am talking about someone that only trades their own money. Not someone that manages other people's money. Obviously lots of hedge fund managers and money managers have gotten very rich from trading but they were trading with other people's money.

Have any independent traders ever made $100 million, $250 million, half billion or even billion dollar fortunes just trading THEIR OWN money?

If so who are these independent traders and what are their stories?


I know one guy that made over $100MM organically with no OPM. He started with $12,000 or so in 1998. I am not going to name him. He's a German national. I would think Rotter is probably the guy with the best story, but not sure how much of his stake was pooled.

Posted by sculptor66 on 02-07-12 05:38 PM:

Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

Quote from travelingtrader:

What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

By independent trader I am talking about someone that only trades their own money. Not someone that manages other people's money. Obviously lots of hedge fund managers and money managers have gotten very rich from trading but they were trading with other people's money.

Have any independent traders ever made $100 million, $250 million, half billion or even billion dollar fortunes just trading THEIR OWN money?

If so who are these independent traders and what are their stories?


Richard Dennis reached about 200 million USD in his personal account. Later he went on to manage OPM, as far as I know - with mixed success.

Posted by just21 on 02-07-12 05:38 PM:

Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

Quote from atticus:

I know one guy that made over $100MM organically with no OPM. He started with $12,000 or so in 1998. I am not going to name him. He's a German national. I would think Rotter is probably the guy with the best story, but not sure how much of his stake was pooled.


What market and strategy?

Posted by atticus on 02-07-12 05:44 PM:

Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

Quote from just21:

What market and strategy?


Equity and FX vol in OTC exotic options.

Posted by newwurldmn on 02-07-12 05:47 PM:

Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

Quote from travelingtrader:

What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

By independent trader I am talking about someone that only trades their own money. Not someone that manages other people's money. Obviously lots of hedge fund managers and money managers have gotten very rich from trading but they were trading with other people's money.

Have any independent traders ever made $100 million, $250 million, half billion or even billion dollar fortunes just trading THEIR OWN money?

If so who are these independent traders and what are their stories?


I didn't read the book The Big Short, but heard a story about two junior investment bankers who quit to start a hedgefund that was self funded. They took 50k and turned it into like 60MM. They did this by picking stocks and then buying LEAPS and tripling or quadrupling their money and doing it over and over again, constantly doubling down. They then were massively short in 2008.

Posted by just21 on 02-07-12 05:49 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

Quote from atticus:

Equity and FX vol in OTC exotic options.


How does an independent trader get access to those markets?

Posted by wiesman02 on 02-07-12 05:55 PM:

Dan Zanger had an incredible story. $10k to $40 mill in 2 years !

Posted by gmst on 02-07-12 05:56 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

Quote from atticus:

Equity and FX vol in OTC exotic options.


Market wizards is filled in with futures and equities traders, most of whom made at least 10 MM, maybe a few like Dennis 200MM. It also has a couple of traders doing vol via vanilla. But independent traders trading vol via exotics. Wow!!

Will you elaborate a bit please ? Did they make this money from good directional calls on volatility/skew expressed via specially structured exotics ? Or they did some kind of model arbitrage to get benefit from mis-pricing of skew/vol/convexity etc. ? If they actually arbed big banks, this story must make for a coverpage on bloomberg markets.

Posted by atticus on 02-07-12 05:56 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

Quote from just21:

How does an independent trader get access to those markets?


The EU has had retail exotics for over a decade. He started with betonmarkets making >$1MM and then gained access to bank dealing.

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-07-12 05:58 PM:

Quote from wiesman02:

Dan Zanger had an incredible story. $10k to $40 mill in 2 years !


I was just going to mention Zanger. His story is probably the most remarkable in that not only did he not use OPM but he didn't use leverage! It was all equity in a Reg T account.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by riskreward on 02-07-12 06:35 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

Quote from atticus:

The EU has had retail exotics for over a decade. He started with betonmarkets making >$1MM and then gained access to bank dealing.


Any hints on how he did it? I thought betonmarkets and retail exotics dealers marked up their products heavily.

Posted by atticus on 02-07-12 06:41 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

Quote from riskreward:

Any hints on how he did it? I thought betonmarkets and retail exotics dealers marked up their products heavily.


Yeah, the edge loss was large, but essentially recovered in 24h on short gamma bets. He parlayed something like 30 bets straight. I know he went from 10k to nearly 800k the first year. Betting-limits were the limiting factor. He opened accounts in his friends names, but always funded those accounts and shared the proceeds. IOW, he would've made more if not for spreading the wealth.

BOM's bets are generally very close to bank indications and volbroker in FX. Maybe 120bp edge loss on index exotics (DNT at 54 with FV at 48). FX is much tighter.

Posted by riskreward on 02-07-12 06:48 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

Quote from atticus:

Yeah, the edge loss was large, but essentially recovered in 24h on short gamma bets. He parlayed something like 30 bets straight. I know he went from 10k to nearly 800k the first year. Betting-limits were the limiting factor. He opened accounts in his friends names, but always funded those accounts and shared the proceeds. IOW, he would've made more if not for spreading the wealth.

BOM's bets are generally very close to bank indications and volbroker in FX. Maybe 120bp edge loss on index exotics (DNT at 54 with FV at 48). FX is much tighter.


Do you mean short gamma bets on the vanilla with an exotic hedge? Or the other way around?

Posted by HATEtheRisk on 02-07-12 06:48 PM:

Richard Dennis, about 200M $ in his mid thirties.

Try to top that..........

Posted by HATEtheRisk on 02-07-12 06:50 PM:

And of course my story one day, when i retire......

Work in progress.........

Posted by atticus on 02-07-12 07:05 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

Quote from riskreward:

Do you mean short gamma bets on the vanilla with an exotic hedge? Or the other way around?


No, outright short gamma bets in the exotics. Mainly double-no-touches and then he migrated to short lookbacks with bank dealers. IIRC he never hedged until he reached into the 10s of millions.

Posted by gmst on 02-07-12 07:14 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT trade

Quote from atticus:

No, outright short gamma bets in the exotics. Mainly double-no-touches and then he migrated to short lookbacks with bank dealers. IIRC he never hedged until he reached into the 10s of millions.


what was the guy's background - education, experience ? Did he use to work at an exotic desk in a bank before ? Your average hedgefund trader or even an average CTA trader can't arb exotics.

Posted by atticus on 02-07-12 07:20 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT t

Quote from gmst:

what was the guy's background - education, experience ? Did he use to work at an exotic desk in a bank before ? Your average hedgefund trader or even an average CTA trader can't arb exotics.


He didn't arb anything. I arbed Oanda for six-figures in 2008, and that was with $20k limits per SSN. I also closed Trinitas Capital's retail operation via arbs in SP500 component exotics. So it can be done.

He was making outright bets on knockouts. No arb. No hedge. Obviously as he became larger the scale required laying off the risk, but that didn't occur until he was already into 8-figures.

MBA from INSEAD. Worked for GS in London under the head of prop/structured products (guy with hyphenated name, can't recall).

Posted by noob_trad3r on 02-07-12 07:23 PM:

Anyone know the name of the Japanese guy that turned 800 dollars into 150 million?

Posted by gmst on 02-07-12 07:30 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDE

Quote from atticus:

He didn't arb anything. I arbed Oanda for six-figures in 2008, and that was with $20k limits per SSN. I also closed Trinitas Capital's retail operation via arbs in SP500 component exotics. So it can be done.

He was making outright bets on knockouts. No arb. No hedge. Obviously as he became larger the scale required laying off the risk, but that didn't occur until he was already into 8-figures.

MBA from INSEAD. Worked for GS in London under the head of prop/structured products (guy with hyphenated name, can't recall).


Thank you very much. I don't think this trader's deeds have been documented yet in any trading book. But it is definitely one of the best I have heard.

Posted by atticus on 02-07-12 07:38 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEP

Quote from gmst:

Thank you very much. I don't think this trader's deeds have been documented yet in any trading book. But it is definitely one of the best I have heard.


I haven't talked to him in years, and I am sure he would be ticked to know I am discussing his exploits, but I've not really given anything away. Still lives in the same region in Germany where he was born and raised.

I know he had a ~$500MM fund at some point, but I think he retired from managing OPM. Very traditional family guy.

Posted by kinggyppo on 02-07-12 07:39 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDE

Quote from atticus:

He didn't arb anything. I arbed Oanda for six-figures in 2008, and that was with $20k limits per SSN. I also closed Trinitas Capital's retail operation via arbs in SP500 component exotics. So it can be done.

He was making outright bets on knockouts. No arb. No hedge. Obviously as he became larger the scale required laying off the risk, but that didn't occur until he was already into 8-figures.

MBA from INSEAD. Worked for GS in London under the head of prop/structured products (guy with hyphenated name, can't recall).


did Oanda issue you a 1099 for that LOL!

Posted by atticus on 02-07-12 07:42 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEP

Quote from kinggyppo:

did Oanda issue you a 1099 for that LOL!


I got a 1099 for swap proceeds.

Posted by Martinghoul on 02-07-12 07:45 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDE

Quote from atticus:
MBA from INSEAD. Worked for GS in London under the head of prop/structured products (guy with hyphenated name, can't recall).

Not Siva-Jothy, perchance?

__________________
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Posted by kinggyppo on 02-07-12 07:50 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEP

Quote from gmst:

Thank you very much. I don't think this trader's deeds have been documented yet in any trading book. But it is definitely one of the best I have heard.


http://fxtrade.oanda.com/trade-fore...ade/box-options

you may find the link interesting, some people (not myself) are really good at pricing this sh&*.

Posted by atticus on 02-07-12 07:52 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEP

Quote from Martinghoul:

Not Siva-Jothy, perchance?


No, jewish name. Also from INSEAD. The German worked for the guy with the hyphenated name. Hyphen guy left GS after making $80MM one year (more than Blankfein earned).

Posted by gmst on 02-07-12 08:24 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by I

Quote from kinggyppo:

http://fxtrade.oanda.com/trade-fore...ade/box-options

you may find the link interesting, some people (not myself) are really good at pricing this sh&*.


Actually, I briefly looked at this few months ago, as a way to increase leverage on one of my set-ups, but decided to keep my operation simple as of now. Will surely take a re-look sometime in future.

Posted by mcdull on 02-08-12 01:02 PM:

Quote from noob_trad3r:

Anyone know the name of the Japanese guy that turned 800 dollars into 150 million?


Takashi Kotegawa (aka BNF)

Posted by Ghost of Cutten on 02-08-12 02:18 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

Quote from atticus:

Equity and FX vol in OTC exotic options.


Out of interest, is it straightforward to trade OTC exotics with a small account?

Posted by ElecEquity on 02-09-12 05:49 AM:

Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

Quote from travelingtrader:

What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

By independent trader I am talking about someone that only trades their own money. Not someone that manages other people's money. Obviously lots of hedge fund managers and money managers have gotten very rich from trading but they were trading with other people's money.

Have any independent traders ever made $100 million, $250 million, half billion or even billion dollar fortunes just trading THEIR OWN money?

If so who are these independent traders and what are their stories?


I know a guy personally that ran $10k up to $50million (gave back a decent chunk after the bull ended) in the late '90's. Relatively famous guy in trading circles. Can't name names though. Also have been told stories about guys that traded back in that time of guys that stayed well below the radar and made tens of millions...funny that these guys kept a lot more than Zanger did after his 75% drop from his equity highs of $40 million...and they never seeked out the fame.

Posted by hitnrun on 02-09-12 07:31 AM:

ElecEquity


sounds like db that went on to open his own fund
made about 50 million that one year

Are we talking about the same guy ?

Posted by atticus on 02-09-12 12:12 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by I

Quote from atticus:

No, jewish name. Also from INSEAD. The German worked for the guy with the hyphenated name. Hyphen guy left GS after making $80MM one year (more than Blankfein earned).


Correction, he worked under Driss Ben Brahim (Moroccan).

Posted by Laissez Faire on 02-09-12 12:14 PM:

I don`t have the exact number, but I think Marty Schwartz did fairly well for himself.

There are some numbers in his book PitBull, which I highly recommend, but I don`t have it at hand so I can`t reference it right now.

Posted by volente_00 on 02-09-12 01:45 PM:

Quote from Laissez Faire:

I don`t have the exact number, but I think Marty Schwartz did fairly well for himself.

There are some numbers in his book PitBull, which I highly recommend, but I don`t have it at hand so I can`t reference it right now.

Think it was 50k to low 7 figures once he started trading spoos

Posted by Bombardier on 02-09-12 03:17 PM:

Quote from noob_trad3r:

Anyone know the name of the Japanese guy that turned 800 dollars into 150 million?


I only know one Japanese trader of that dimension: Takeshi Kotegawa, nicknamed B-N-F (Japanese pronunciation for Victor Niederhoffer), or simply J-Com man for his coup in J-Com stocks. His starting capital was around $14,000 and turned it into roughly $150 million in 8 years time. With that capital he bought an entire office building in 2008 after noticing that his equity curve started to stale due to its size. Have not heard any news of him ever since.

Posted by Bear Trader on 02-10-12 10:54 PM:

the biggest flaw in many of these tales is that - these guys who are said to have started with small amounts really had more equity than they are letting out.

I know a good number of people who started trading with around $50k but had over $2m in the bank. These guys could leverage big risk looking for the one big moves. And some did well.

The heroic story sounds better when they make out the started with only a small amount. It's all spin.

Posted by atticus on 02-10-12 11:04 PM:

Quote from Bear Trader:

the biggest flaw in many of these tales is that - these guys who are said to have started with small amounts really had more equity than they are letting out.

I know a good number of people who started trading with around $50k but had over $2m in the bank. These guys could leverage big risk looking for the one big moves. And some did well.

The heroic story sounds better when they make out the started with only a small amount. It's all spin.


I know the guy in my story never added a dime to the initial $10-$12k. He was trading with BOM and hit like 30 consecutive wins averaging better than 10% per trade. $10k to $300k the first year. $2MM the second year, at which time he moved to UBS. He was hitting position limits, so adding cash would've been a hindrance. He hit $10MM the third year and opened an GmbH and a PB relationship.

He destroyed UBS (FX); BNP and SocGen's equity exotics desks. He has a great feel for short-term turns and would often go up to 50% of capital in 1W NTs and DNTs. I recall one trade in which he bought an NT in the SP500 that was 13 pts otm. He bought the NT for $4MM with a NT payout of $10MM. At the time his capital was ~$11MM. Huge balls. Bet paid.

There is no better gearing than American exotics. Certainly a lot easier to fathom than a guy trading RegT. I learned a ton from the guy. The bets are easy to price and tough to hedge (Derman), but what is amazing (to me) is that he didn't replicate even after hitting $20MM. IIRC, he was forced to hedge OTC and listed when he hit $40-$50MM. I know it took roughly 3 years to go from $10MM to $100MM, all organic growth and after-tax.

Haters gonna hate.

Posted by Pigsky on 02-10-12 11:15 PM:

How you know they already have 2 million?

I agree some trader on forum pretending to be profit when they are not. Ego boost and online fantasy life.

however unless you have proof they were already millionaire you just making accusations of thin air...... but i understand skeptic view, it will always be there.......

Posted by atticus on 02-10-12 11:38 PM:

One last point. The German did this in complete sh*t equity markets. He didn't benefit from the equity bubble. He did this all from 2001 to late-2009.

Posted by HATEtheRisk on 02-10-12 11:39 PM:

Quote from atticus:

I know the guy in my story never added a dime to the initial $10-$12k. He was trading with BOM and hit like 30 consecutive wins averaging better than 10% per trade. $10k to $300k the first year. $2MM the second year, at which time he moved to UBS. He was hitting position limits, so adding cash would've been a hindrance. He hit $10MM the third year and opened an gmbh and a PB relationship.

He destroyed UBS (FX); BNP and SocGen's equity exotics desks. His had a great feel for short-term turns and would often go up to 50% of capital in 1W NTs and DNTs. I recall one trade in which he bought an NT in the SP500 that was 13 pts otm. He bought the NT for $4MM with a NT payout of $10MM. At the time his capital was ~$11MM. Huge balls. Bet paid.

There is no better gearing than American exotics. Certainly a lot easier to fathom than a guy trading RegT. I learned a ton from the guy. The bets are easy to price and tough to hedge (Derman), but what is amazing (to me) is that he didn't replicate even after hitting $20MM. IIRC, he was forced to hedge OTC and listed when he hit $40-$50MM. I know it took roughly 3 years to go from $10MM to $100MM, all organic growth and after-tax.

Haters gonna hate.


Amazing story.

What do you think, how much money can a retail trader make with trading FX, Futures & Stocks.

And second in private banking, as to start with $5M?

Lets say for 20 years trading, with 11 monhts profit a year and 1 month holiday.

Thank you

Posted by atticus on 02-10-12 11:54 PM:

Quote from HATEtheRisk:

Amazing story.

What do you think, how much money can a retail trader make with trading FX, Futures & Stocks.

And second in private banking, as to start with $5M?

Lets say for 20 years trading, with 11 monhts profit a year and 1 month holiday.

Thank you


I know traders who have turned $5k into $200k, but invariably give-up a 40-50% drawdown. With shares it's extremely difficult under regT and this volatility. FX at 50x is more reasonable, but most of those guys are degens and must blow-out to satisfy their aberrant psych.

FX traded as an equity proxy on a swing-basis is probably one's greatest opportunity, outside of American exotics and/or listed option spreads/combos.

I am not sure I understand the "private banking" question other than to say that he waited to hit $10MM before establishing a PB relationship. UBS took his account from the $2MM level. He was trading FX exotics at that time and it was his toughest period (his words). Too big to trade retail and too small to trade OTC equity exotics (at $2MM)

Posted by HATEtheRisk on 02-11-12 12:32 AM:

Quote from atticus:

I know traders who have turned $5k into $200k, but invariably give-up a 40-50% drawdown. With shares it's extremely difficult under regT and this volatility. FX at 50x is more reasonable, but most of those guys are degens and must blow-out to satisfy their aberrant psych.

FX traded as an equity proxy on a swing-basis is probably one's greatest opportunity, outside of American exotics and/or listed option spreads/combos.

I am not sure I understand the "private banking" question other than to say that he waited to hit $10MM before establishing a PB relationship. UBS took his account from the $2MM level. He was trading FX exotics at that time and it was his toughest period (his words). Too big to trade retail and too small to trade OTC equity exotics (at $2MM)


Interesting.

Look, i see it this way......
-------------------------
First, with just retail trading, outside the US. I can trade all markets with leverage, FX + Futures - normal & Stocks as CFDs.

As well i can trade Stocks as Futures, like on the EUREX. So leverage is everywhere.

Imagin i start business with 10 retail brokerage companies, for example like FXCM or MB Trading. There are more than 10 good ones out there......
So i make $3M with everyone, starting with 10k - 50k each account. 3M is not the world and they allow you to do this, as long they have a minimum total company capital of around 100M$ - like FXCM........

So, then what you have is 10 x 3M = 30M$, alone from Retail Brokerage Firms.
-----------------------------
Second, "private banking" i mean the service from big banks for high net worth individuals, what begins with 5M$ personal funds.
Thats the minimum to get in touch with that kind of special service.
Then you are trading the real FX market, its lika institutional access, but for private persons. of course for all markets, the best access and service. Just like if you would be a own company, but on the private way.

So, here one Bank is enough. And there is probably no Limit in making money here.

At $50M you are counting as Ultra High Net Worth Individual.
----------------------
I dont know if Richard Dennis, had a own firm, or if he did it with private banking trading - but this is the way to do it, if you will make more than 5M$..............at this level you are just too big for retail companies, and your money isnt safe their neither.....

What do you think ?


Posted by atticus on 02-11-12 12:41 AM:

Quote from HATEtheRisk:

Interesting.

Look, i see it this way......
-------------------------
First, with just retail trading, outside the US. I can trade all markets with leverage, FX + Futures - normal & Stocks as CFDs.

As well i can trade Stocks as Futures, like on the EUREX. So leverage is everywhere.

Imagin i start business with 10 retail brokerage companies, for example like FXCM or MB Trading. There are more than 10 good ones out there......
So i make $3M with everyone, starting with 10k - 50k each account. 3M is not the world and they allow you to do this, as long they have a minimum total company capital of around 100M$ - like FXCM........

So, then what you have is 10 x 3M = 30M$, alone from Retail Brokerage Firms.
-----------------------------
Second, "private banking" i mean the service from big banks for high net worth individuals, what begins with 5M$ personal funds.
Thats the minimum to get in touch with that kind of special service.
Then you are trading the real FX market, its lika institutional access, but for private persons. of course for all markets, the best access and service. Just like if you would be a own company, but on the private way.

So, here one Bank is enough. And there is probably no Limit in making money here.

At $50M you are counting as Ultra High Net Worth Individual.
----------------------
I dont know if Richard Dennis, had a own firm, or if he did it with private banking trading - but this is the way to do it, if you will make more than 5M$..............at this level you are just too big for retail companies, and your money isnt safe their neither.....

What do you think ?




I don't see the point of brokerage diversification to that extent. It's a logistical nightmare and completely unnecessary. If SEC-regulated brokers go to shit then only cash in the mattress is safe when guarded by Mssrs. Smith and Wesson.

My point regarding notional limits has nothing to do with traditional delta1 products. American exotics are not traded retail in size. You must trade with a bank. He would have no trouble trading $100MM in any of those products with a retail account. For example, my brother has over $50MM with IB alone. ;)

Posted by HATEtheRisk on 02-11-12 01:09 AM:

Quote from atticus:

I don't see the point of brokerage diversification to that extent. It's a logistical nightmare and completely unnecessary. If SEC-regulated brokers go to shit then only cash in the mattress is safe when guarded by Mssrs. Smith and Wesson.

My point regarding notional limits has nothing to do with traditional delta1 products. American exotics are not traded retail in size. You must trade with a bank. He would have no trouble trading $100MM in any of those products with a retail account. For example, my brother has over $50MM with IB alone. ;)


I see........

I only trust retail broker firms, from the USA and UK, if they have enough money.

You can never care enough about the security of your own funds.
Remember MF Global.

All i want is to switch all my trading to Big Banks in private banking access, so i have the best of the best and dont have to care about anything else anymore, than just doing trading.......

Have a nice weekend

Posted by OddTrader on 02-11-12 03:00 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

Quote from atticus:

I know he went from 10k to nearly 800k the first year. Betting-limits were the limiting factor. He opened accounts in his friends names, but always funded those accounts and shared the proceeds. IOW, he would've made more if not for spreading the wealth.


Quote from atticus:

I know the guy in my story never added a dime to the initial $10-$12k. He was trading with BOM and hit like 30 consecutive wins averaging better than 10% per trade. $10k to $300k the first year. $2MM the second year, at which time he moved to UBS.


Very interesting story, indeed!

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"The Pursuit of Happyness" --- Chris Gardner

Posted by pattern43 on 02-11-12 03:24 AM:

"Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's property [nor his margin trading account]"...

Money (greed/covetous behavior), sex (lust/porn/fornication, etc), in full control (trying to control everyone around you thru anger & intimidation and consequently losing control of yourself, etc.)... You gotta keep the beat and run away... [The Real McCoy --- Run Away]

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-11-12 04:14 AM:

Quote from pattern43:

"Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's property [nor his margin trading account]"...

Money (greed/covetous behavior), sex (lust/porn/fornication, etc), in full control (trying to control everyone around you thru anger & intimidation and consequently losing control of yourself, etc.)... You gotta keep the beat and run away... [The Real McCoy --- Run Away]


Religion: the source of all evil.

Posted by bln on 02-11-12 01:52 PM:

Japanese daytrader/scalper Takashi Kotegawa (BNF/J-Com Man) traded $13,600 into $153 million in 8 years. Zanger, Rotter, etc, they all provide great inspiration to us all and show that it is possible to make it big.

Posted by Spooz Top on 02-11-12 02:51 PM:

Atticus,
Thanks for sharing/elaborating on the German exotics trader..you`ve made reference to him in the past & has intrigued me since...excellent read!

__________________
Steve

Posted by JohnsonMM on 02-11-12 02:56 PM:

10 to the Power of 12 - Power of 13 USD. Whatever. Nobody can use that much money in a thousand lifetimes.

Posted by tenthousandmen on 02-11-12 03:07 PM:

Quote from atticus:

I don't see the point of brokerage diversification to that extent. It's a logistical nightmare and completely unnecessary. If SEC-regulated brokers go to shit then only cash in the mattress is safe when guarded by Mssrs. Smith and Wesson.

My point regarding notional limits has nothing to do with traditional delta1 products. American exotics are not traded retail in size. You must trade with a bank. He would have no trouble trading $100MM in any of those products with a retail account. For example, my brother has over $50MM with IB alone. ;)
What about the grim reaper (aka Corzine) ...he's in at least one firm, but nobody knows which one!

Posted by tommo on 02-11-12 08:25 PM:

Personally know a guy that started as a prop trader (backed by the firm didnt even put his own money down) was worth 30 million sterling 5 years later.

Know probably 20 other guys that started under similar circumstances and hit the million pound mark within a few years.

But these guys were on a trading floor with other successful people... not that it takes anything away from their success as many dont make it but think it would be a lot harder figuring it out on your own from home

Posted by flipside21 on 02-20-12 05:57 AM:

Takashi Kotegawa

Takashi Kotegawa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La-WIYNjgoY
Nice pad. Like watching the movie Limitless, except this is for real.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuS_...feature=related
The ladies are impressed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk1h5D6OK2Y
Takashi showing a reporter how he trades.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b600IN8zyjw
9 min video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKxT...feature=related
Another news story sensation.

At his trading station.

Posted by athlonmank8 on 02-20-12 06:29 AM:

Did John Bender use OPM? He was also one of the other great minds to make a killing. He traded his assumption(?) that OTM options have fatter tails.

Posted by cyoungmark on 02-20-12 06:39 AM:

Quote from bln:

Japanese daytrader/scalper Takashi Kotegawa (BNF/J-Com Man) traded $13,600 into $153 million in 8 years. Zanger, Rotter, etc, they all provide great inspiration to us all and show that it is possible to make it big.


I think this is the Asian guy who was a shut in, lived with his parents, and never left the house. Ever.

lol

Posted by FrankSlaughtery on 02-20-12 11:55 AM:

Quote from cyoungmark:

I think this is the Asian guy who was a shut in, lived with his parents, and never left the house. Ever.

lol


having $153 million and living w/ your parents is better than working a "regular job" for someone else making 40k.

Posted by Handle123 on 02-20-12 12:25 PM:

My mentor from long ago has over 250mil through day trading and long term, he is his 60's now. Still scalping the ES for 1-3 tics, doing 100-150 trades a day and he is right 98% profitable. And he does not wish to be known, too many people camping at his doorstep thru the years I suppose.

But he is sort of "out there", he speaks and I still easily get lost by what he tries to explain. I can think in three moves ahead of time, but he thinks in nine moves.

He lives extremely frugal, but has seven thousand sq ft house, most of the rooms are empty, said he built house thinking it be a quick sell, now it is twenty years later....

Posted by Pekelo on 02-20-12 02:20 PM:

Quote from Handle123:

My mentor from long ago has over 250mil... in his 60s....

He lives extremely frugal,


But seriously, what's the point??? I am not saying he should have 10 houses in 5 continents, but he should be enjoying his wealth, even if in a moderate, Warren Buffet way.

Or give it away to charity. It is rather pointless to have 250 mill in the bank, and living frugal, then he is not much better off then the rest of us....

Posted by tyrant on 02-20-12 02:35 PM:

Quote from Handle123:

My mentor from long ago has over 250mil through day trading and long term, he is his 60's now. Still scalping the ES for 1-3 tics, doing 100-150 trades a day and he is right 98% profitable. And he does not wish to be known, too many people camping at his doorstep thru the years I suppose.

But he is sort of "out there", he speaks and I still easily get lost by what he tries to explain. I can think in three moves ahead of time, but he thinks in nine moves.

He lives extremely frugal, but has seven thousand sq ft house, most of the rooms are empty, said he built house thinking it be a quick sell, now it is twenty years later....


A 2% return on his 250mil means annual income of 5mil. There is no point trading anymore especially when he is frugal.

Posted by atticus on 02-20-12 02:42 PM:

Quote from Handle123:

My mentor from long ago has over 250mil through day trading and long term, he is his 60's now. Still scalping the ES for 1-3 tics, doing 100-150 trades a day and he is right 98% profitable. And he does not wish to be known, too many people camping at his doorstep thru the years I suppose.

But he is sort of "out there", he speaks and I still easily get lost by what he tries to explain. I can think in three moves ahead of time, but he thinks in nine moves.

He lives extremely frugal, but has seven thousand sq ft house, most of the rooms are empty, said he built house thinking it be a quick sell, now it is twenty years later....


lol sure, why not. His name is Kris Kringle.

Posted by r-in on 02-20-12 02:57 PM:

Quote from tyrant:

A 2% return on his 250mil means annual income of 5mil. There is no point trading anymore especially when he is frugal.


Why does Buffet go to work? How about Larry Ellison, who has apparently been more or less paying himself 80 mil a year for the last 4 years, plus all that before and his stock? Why does Jack Welch show up write books etc? They can't stop. Some is self serving, but they like work. Same with trading, it becomes an addiction to sit down and work. I have a friend who is CEO of a company, not huge, but more than big enough to pay him a good salary, and his wife works and is a doctor. The company was started by his father in law, and his father in law keeps telling him to retire, as his wife, the father in laws daughter makes more than enough. He also has been upfront that they will inherit stupid money.
He has no desire to quit. For him it is a competition. He wants to make the company better and bigger. He can recite what the company does, and what the competition does, and what he wants to do to kick their ass.
He is 50 years old, has been told to retire, could retire, but he loves everything about what he does, so why would he retire.
And he does go out and play golf 3 -4 times a week when he can, and takes employees with him. Funny guy, as he has talked any number of people who never played golf to at least come out and walk the course and take a swing at least. It cracks me up as he doesn't try to sell a story to his employees, he just does what he thinks and stays on the right side of things, and for the most part the people their love the guy. He would be a good case study for the knucklehead MBA programs. I gather his father in law is very similiar, which is probably why he was able to build his company from zero with no financial help. None, he started out of his parents house, and did nothing unless he made money to expand. His parents weren't broke, but he felt it was wrong to ask them for money as he was all ready living in their house.

Posted by athlonmank8 on 02-20-12 02:58 PM:

Quote from tyrant:

A 2% return on his 250mil means annual income of 5mil. There is no point trading anymore especially when he is frugal.
tell the casinos that.

Posted by tomahawk on 02-20-12 03:18 PM:

Quote from Handle123:

My mentor from long ago has over 250mil through day trading and long term, he is his 60's now. Still scalping the ES for 1-3 tics, doing 100-150 trades a day and he is right 98% profitable. And he does not wish to be known, too many people camping at his doorstep thru the years I suppose.

But he is sort of "out there", he speaks and I still easily get lost by what he tries to explain. I can think in three moves ahead of time, but he thinks in nine moves.

He lives extremely frugal, but has seven thousand sq ft house, most of the rooms are empty, said he built house thinking it be a quick sell, now it is twenty years later....


Impressive. If you know or had to guess what sort of charts your guy uses to place that many trades (assuming he uses charts), care to share? .... thanks.

This sounds like a friend of mine who's a veteran ES/SPX trader at the Merc. No charts, obviously. Can't imagine how anyone paying retail commissions could win big this way.

Posted by jeffalvinson on 02-20-12 03:27 PM:

I use to follow a guy's thread on silicone investor website in the late 1990's to early 2000's.
He started with $3K and turned it into $2.3 million simply buying long options on tech stocks during the amazing tech boom (Nasdaq 5000)
of the late 1990's to early 2000. The Bear of 2000-2002 took his $2.3 million down to $200K.
He actually had financial and newspaper articles (in pdf form) on his thread documenting his success and downfall. (I think one newspaper article was even titled,
"$3,000 to $2.3 million to $200,000," or something like that.)
I followed some of his option trades on his thread and he was usually (but not always) correct on the trades. He took a far more conservative approach to his trading (but still just long options) on this SI thread then he did in the Nasdaq boom cycle.

__________________
jeff alvinson

Posted by Pekelo on 02-20-12 03:47 PM:

Quote from r-in:

Why does Buffet go to work? How about Larry Ellison,


Well, Ellison is living a full life and certainly isn't frugal....

The conundrum wasn't why do they still work (that is understandable), but why one with a fortune is extremely frugal? After all, if one can not/will not use the fruits of their work, they aren't really different from the average Joe.

And even if they don't want to have luxury items and such, they still could use the money for something better than keeping it in the bank, or invested in bonds.

I mean it is his money, but again, what is the point??? There is a reason why Bill Gates is going to give away most of his fortune...

Posted by Handle123 on 02-20-12 05:13 PM:

Quote from tomahawk:

Impressive. If you know or had to guess what sort of charts your guy uses to place that many trades (assuming he uses charts), care to share? .... thanks.

This sounds like a friend of mine who's a veteran ES/SPX trader at the Merc. No charts, obviously. Can't imagine how anyone paying retail commissions could win big this way.


He uses 60/30/15/5/1 minute charts, lots of indicators, S/R, but knows Price Action extremely well, he also has Outstanding understanding of Astro as that pertains to trading. Much of what he tried to teach me was beyond my ability to grasp his concepts but I was able to take bits and parts to add to my ideas of how to trade. Where he and I often agree is longer term trading of Commodities as he looks at 20/100 year charts on some markets, when price is on the floor, it has only one way to go and selling Puts. He will sit on something and rollover for couple years like buying Cocoa in late 2005, Corn in early 2006, Sugar 2008.

Plenty of billionaires who keep working, like Jim Rogers.

Posted by tenthousandmen on 02-20-12 05:26 PM:

Larry Ellison

No I don't think he goes to work anymore... have you seen his most recent spending spree? If he stays in AZ for the week, he buys a house!

Posted by travelingtrader on 02-20-12 05:59 PM:

Jim Rogers isn't a billionaire from what I have read.

Posted by pennystocker on 02-20-12 06:05 PM:

Re: Takashi Kotegawa

Quote from flipside21:

Takashi Kotegawa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La-WIYNjgoY
Nice pad. Like watching the movie Limitless, except this is for real.


At his trading station.


http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_...1309&con_type=1

Looks like this guy made the bulk of his money because of some sort of fat finger error.

__________________
The very substance of the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.

Posted by atticus on 02-20-12 07:38 PM:

Re: Re: Takashi Kotegawa

Quote from pennystocker:

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_...1309&con_type=1

Looks like this guy made the bulk of his money because of some sort of fat finger error.


No, he made something approaching $20MM from the FF.

Posted by CPTrader on 02-20-12 07:44 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Takashi Kotegawa

Quote from atticus:

No, he made something approaching $20MM from the FF.


And it required incredible courage, convinction, preparedness, agility to benefit from that fat figure. Plus he had the capital available to participate in the opportunity due to previous successful trades.

As I think atticus is trying to imply, he should be commended ..and we should not as the other poster seems to indicate write it off as a fluke.

Posted by tradewiz50 on 02-20-12 07:55 PM:

Quote from noob_trad3r:

Anyone know the name of the Japanese guy that turned 800 dollars into 150 million?


Tokyo Joe?

Posted by r-in on 02-20-12 08:15 PM:

Bill Gates had no intention of giving a dime away unitl he got married and then started hagning out with fellow billionaire Buffet. I think he loved the dollar figure as a comparison and competition previously.

Posted by babutime on 02-20-12 08:21 PM:

Amazing

Mind numbing indeed

that's a lotta monneh!

__________________
"People assign much higher probability to the truth of their opinions than is warranted. It's one of the reasons people trade so much in the market, generally with bad results."
-Daniel Kahneman

Posted by babutime on 02-20-12 08:24 PM:

Insane!

Quote from atticus:

I don't see the point of brokerage diversification to that extent. It's a logistical nightmare and completely unnecessary. If SEC-regulated brokers go to shit then only cash in the mattress is safe when guarded by Mssrs. Smith and Wesson.

My point regarding notional limits has nothing to do with traditional delta1 products. American exotics are not traded retail in size. You must trade with a bank. He would have no trouble trading $100MM in any of those products with a retail account. For example, my brother has over $50MM with IB alone. ;)



Your brother has 50 MM in his trading account at IB?

Wow...

Do you trade with something that large too? How did you/ he get started? Did you work at a firm after university? O are you self made?

Please share...

__________________
"People assign much higher probability to the truth of their opinions than is warranted. It's one of the reasons people trade so much in the market, generally with bad results."
-Daniel Kahneman

Posted by atticus on 02-20-12 08:25 PM:

Quote from travelingtrader:

Jim Rogers isn't a billionaire from what I have read.


His info on Rogers is as reliable as the story.

Posted by atticus on 02-20-12 08:45 PM:

Re: Insane!

Quote from babutime:

Your brother has 50 MM in his trading account at IB?

Wow...

Do you trade with something that large too? How did you/ he get started? Did you work at a firm after university? O are you self made?

Please share...


He did at one time -- don't know if he's wired it out. He was the majority shareholder of a CLEC during the telecom boom after dereg. He began with IB on my recommendation and the 8% notes IB was offering at the time (late 90s).

I had an undergrad in bio and physics (pre-med). I worked for a MMer and a ibank out of school. I took some finmath but nothing too deep.

Posted by bwolinsky on 02-20-12 09:28 PM:

I think my only limit in the next two years to ten figures is the position limits. At $70 million I will approach the position limits in NQ. After that, if I want to maintain my discipline every profit thereafter doesn't need to be re-invested, because that's the limit to how many contracts I'd be able to put on at 50% of equity for NQ's.

__________________
HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

Bud Fox

Wall Street

Posted by Arjun1 on 02-20-12 09:32 PM:

BTW Kris Kringle = Santa Clause for those that didn't know (I had to look it up).
100 heads in a row MUST HAPPEN as a function of PURE RANDOMNESS if you flip a coin enough times.
And when you have a billion brokerage accounts worldwide, 10k to 100 million events MUST HAPPEN out of PURE RANDOMNESS.
Most people intuitively (but wrongly) assume that these rare events disprove randomness when in fact they prove randomness.
However, good luck is a function of good design to a limited extent and that's all the hope you have as a trader.

Posted by zdreg on 02-20-12 10:19 PM:

george soros
He is known as "The Man Who Broke the Bank of England" because of his US$1 billion in investment profits during the 1992 Black Wednesday UK currency crisis

Posted by Debaser82 on 02-20-12 10:35 PM:

Quote from zdreg:

george soros
He is known as "The Man Who Broke the Bank of England" because of his US$1 billion in investment profits during the 1992 Black Wednesday UK currency crisis
I believe the Quantum fund he and Rogers managed in the 70's and kickstarted their net worth managed the money of soms of the richest New Yorkers around at the time so I wouldnt really say they got rich trading indepently. Still amazing job they did ofcourse.

Posted by babutime on 02-20-12 11:57 PM:

Re: Re: Insane!

Quote from atticus:

He did at one time -- don't know if he's wired it out. He was the majority shareholder of a CLEC during the telecom boom after dereg. He began with IB on my recommendation and the 8% notes IB was offering at the time (late 90s).

I had an undergrad in bio and physics (pre-med). I worked for a MMer and a ibank out of school. I took some finmath but nothing too deep.


Impressive

I graduated with Fin Math in 08. Couldnt find a job cuz the industry was in a slump. Have some PhD courses out of the way too..

Any advice for this job market? Atticus/ anyone?

..just waiting for a small break.

[To moderator/ OP: apologies for replies that are unrelated. Seems like there's some guys here who really know their stuff.]

__________________
"People assign much higher probability to the truth of their opinions than is warranted. It's one of the reasons people trade so much in the market, generally with bad results."
-Daniel Kahneman

Posted by mgrund on 02-21-12 12:12 AM:

The largest amount money that I know of was made on fundamental news, when the USSR invaded Afganistan in 1979- gold literallty went thru the roof- fearing the cold war etc- shame nowadays all wars are planned and no shocks to the markets, as its all factored into the price

Posted by clacy on 02-21-12 12:55 AM:

Quote from mgrund:

The largest amount money that I know of was made on fundamental news, when the USSR invaded Afganistan in 1979- gold literallty went thru the roof- fearing the cold war etc- shame nowadays all wars are planned and no shocks to the markets, as its all factored into the price


Ya, it's a shame you can't profit more from the wars nowadays.

Posted by The Bishop on 02-21-12 01:01 AM:

Quote from mgrund:

The largest amount money that I know of was made on fundamental news, when the USSR invaded Afganistan in 1979- gold literallty went thru the roof- fearing the cold war etc- shame nowadays all wars are planned and no shocks to the markets, as its all factored into the price


Similar effect was the run up in crude to Gulf War 1 and the subsequent crude sell off once the US invasion began.

Posted by cyoungmark on 02-21-12 01:11 AM:

Quote from FrankSlaughtery:

having $153 million and living w/ your parents is better than working a "regular job" for someone else making 40k.


You don't understand... He didn't have friends, no hobbies, did not leave the house period.

Posted by zdreg on 02-21-12 09:37 AM:

Quote from mgrund:

The largest amount money that I know of was made on fundamental news, when the USSR invaded Afganistan in 1979- gold literallty went thru the roof- fearing the cold war etc- shame nowadays all wars are planned and no shocks to the markets, as its all factored into the price


don't give up hope. the Israelis might pleasantly surprise with an invasion of Iran.
"Defense Minister Ehud Barak emerged from a two-hour meeting Monday with visiting US National Security Adviser Tom Donilon saying sovereign nations act based on their own perception of their interests."

of course there exists the possibility of the chinese, who can smell american weakness, going on a military adventure.
no need to worry. these people don't make pre-announcements.

Posted by FrankSlaughtery on 02-21-12 11:35 AM:

Quote from cyoungmark:

You don't understand... He didn't have friends, no hobbies, did not leave the house period.


pls don't take my remarks as saying all traders should lock themselves into a fortress and no interact w/ anyone but their clearing firm b/c i'm not saying that.

w/ that said, it's extremely difficult to know who your true friends are if you're rich (unless they are equally rich). and on a similar note, I would NEVER trust a girl who says she "loves me for who I am, not the money". for those following this thread, that is called "acting" and is not to be relied upon as actual feeling.

re hobbies, a lot of traders only want to trade/read about trading/think about how to improve and don't have any other hobbies and that's one of the reasons they're so successful. if he (the guy who benefited from the fat finger) was out doing a hobby he might have missed that opportunity.

Posted by JohnsonMM on 02-21-12 12:16 PM:

Quote from FrankSlaughtery:

"friendship" is a concept. It doesn't exist. The closest thing is win-win self-interest, which works only for a while. Fake friendship, what is generally known as "frienship" is a simple con game between an opponent and its victim.

Sorry for the bad news, but these news are very old truths. The higher in the wealth scale you are, the clearer it gets.

Posted by mgrund on 02-21-12 07:01 PM:

The Israelis could not invade Iran, they simply do not have the number to do so.If that happened the Iranians would flood Israel with martyrs/suicide bombers etc.There are apparently upto 1 million muslims who are prepared to die as martys to beat the Zionists, if that situation were to arise according to some Intelligence agencys.

Posted by Michael888 on 02-21-12 08:32 PM:

Quote from FrankSlaughtery:


re hobbies, a lot of traders only want to trade/read about trading/think about how to improve and don't have any other hobbies and that's one of the reasons they're so successful. if he (the guy who benefited from the fat finger) was out doing a hobby he might have missed that opportunity. [/B]


Do you think there is a fine line between giving your everything to a chosen profession/skill and addiction?

Posted by trade2live on 02-21-12 08:33 PM:

Re: Re: What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?

Quote from sculptor66:

Richard Dennis reached about 200 million USD in his personal account. Later he went on to manage OPM, as far as I know - with mixed success.


Where did you read it was his personal account ? I read he ended up with that , with his money management business. I don't think you can get there with trend following on a personal account. Trend following just doesn't provide the returns needed for that.

Posted by Swan Noir on 02-21-12 08:57 PM:

A good number of rags to riches guys had some pretty good rags to build on. it is easy to trade a $50,000 account with balls (I'm not saying it is easy to win just that it is easy to press your bets) if you have serious equity outside the account. It is tougher if you have only that fifty and not much else.

Quote from Bear Trader:

the biggest flaw in many of these tales is that - these guys who are said to have started with small amounts really had more equity than they are letting out.

I know a good number of people who started trading with around $50k but had over $2m in the bank. These guys could leverage big risk looking for the one big moves. And some did well.

The heroic story sounds better when they make out the started with only a small amount. It's all spin.

__________________
Swan Noir

Posted by clacy on 02-21-12 09:21 PM:

Quote from Swan Noir:

A good number of rags to riches guys had some pretty good rags to build on. it is easy to trade a $50,000 account with balls (I'm not saying it is easy to win just that it is easy to press your bets) if you have serious equity outside the account. It is tougher if you have only that fifty and not much else.


Agreed. Many on a site like this look to the guys who took $10k and turned it into $20mm, and they assume that said super-trader only had $10k to their name, like may be the case for the aspiring trader.

Assumptions like that are dangerous because the "super-trader" very well could have had a paid for house and 6 years living expenses in another account, which is totally separate from the $10k that they turned into a fortune.

Posted by newwurldmn on 02-21-12 09:23 PM:

Quote from clacy:

Agreed. Many on a site like this look to the guys who took $10k and turned it into $20mm, and they assume that said super-trader only had $10k to their name, like may be the case for the aspiring trader.

Assumptions like that are dangerous because the "super-trader" very well could have had a paid for house and 6 years living expenses in another account, which is totally separate from the $10k that they turned into a fortune.


Worse, they see that 1 guy who made 20MM and forget the 3,000 who lost their 10k

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-21-12 09:27 PM:

Quote from newwurldmn:

Worse, they see that 1 guy who made 20MM and forget the 3,000 who lost their 10k


Oh come on! I'm going to turn a few thousand into 80 million in two years, just as Bwollinsky is promising. 2 years! I guarantee I'll have 80 million starting with only $2000.

Posted by Swan Noir on 02-21-12 09:29 PM:

They also forget that just because you saw Mays and Mantle play center field (I did) and they made it look easy ... that it ain't easy for almost anyone else. I think it helps to know that the possibility is there; futures in particular provide more leverage than anyone can actually use and as you grow you can scale pretty quickly but just because it is possible it is insane to discount what it takes to get to medium numbers never mind big numbers.

Quote from newwurldmn:

Worse, they see that 1 guy who made 20MM and forget the 3,000 who lost their 10k

__________________
Swan Noir

Posted by highballs on 02-21-12 09:30 PM:

Quote from HATEtheRisk:

Richard Dennis, about 200M $ in his mid thirties.

Try to top that..........



My goal in life is to do this one day.

Posted by kinggyppo on 02-21-12 09:44 PM:

Quote from newwurldmn:

Worse, they see that 1 guy who made 20MM and forget the 3,000 who lost their 10k


This thread and many others are problematic that way, there is a guy on another thread getting all hot and bothered because someone made x return in x time. I use the example of John Paulson who made one of the largest returns ever in terms of absolute dollars. Had a terrible year last year. Everyone is like he's gots billions, drawdown is painful whether its 2 k or 2 billion. Most people want all the reward without the risk or hard work.
Like someone else said if 10 million people trade with 10 k then a few of them are bound to make it. No one except yourself will solve the riddle if you are lucky or skilled, risk management will keep you from blowing out, the boring truth!

Posted by bwolinsky on 02-22-12 12:27 AM:

Quote from Arjun1:

BTW Kris Kringle = Santa Clause for those that didn't know (I had to look it up).
100 heads in a row MUST HAPPEN as a function of PURE RANDOMNESS if you flip a coin enough times.
And when you have a billion brokerage accounts worldwide, 10k to 100 million events MUST HAPPEN out of PURE RANDOMNESS.
Most people intuitively (but wrongly) assume that these rare events disprove randomness when in fact they prove randomness.
However, good luck is a function of good design to a limited extent and that's all the hope you have as a trader.


This is not a good example...you are talking about billions of heads and tails flips, and nobody has time for that because in the long run we're all dead.

__________________
HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

Bud Fox

Wall Street

Posted by bwolinsky on 02-22-12 12:29 AM:

Quote from bhardy307:

Oh come on! I'm going to turn a few thousand into 80 million in two years, just as Bwollinsky is promising. 2 years! I guarantee I'll have 80 million starting with only $2000.


You really haven't put any thought to having a plan for billions have you? Mine doesn't just including assuming I can time markets my whole life.

You're probably missing the 3-5 years with final 2 years of pure analysis I just went through to get here. There was no trading until there was a plan, and while there was a plan for all of my trading career, it has just changed to better and better methods and I'm doing really well with what I'm doing right now.

The first two units are pretty sweet. The max 416 units of my model will be pretty sweet, too, but after that I'll have to try scaling into ETF's but will be limited by that too simply by liquidity for ETF's, but position limits for futures.

__________________
HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

Bud Fox

Wall Street

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-22-12 12:33 AM:

Quote from bwolinsky:

You really haven't put any thought to having a plan for billions have you? Mine doesn't just including assuming I can time markets my whole life.

You're probably missing the 3-5 years with final 2 years of pure analysis I just went through to get here. There was no trading until there was a plan, and there was a plan for all of my trading career, it has just changed to better and better methods and I'm doing really well with what I'm doing right now.


Oh, give me a break, Beau. I was just teasing you. Nontheless, I would be very surprised if you're able to achieve the 8 figure goal in 2 years. If you can prove me wrong, I'll be very impressed.

Posted by bwolinsky on 02-22-12 12:41 AM:

Quote from bhardy307:

Oh, give me a break, Beau. I was just teasing you. Nontheless, I would be very surprised if you're able to achieve the 8 figure goal in 2 years. If you can prove me wrong, I'll be very impressed.


The 8 figure is within 4 months of 7 figures that's currently 8-10 months away, but 9 figure $100 mil is out of reach as soon as position limits kick in, but by then opm funding should not be a problem.

Really, I know I have a holy grail, even if it's 4 different systems combined I'd say they might be the best models in the world.

__________________
HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

Bud Fox

Wall Street

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-22-12 12:44 AM:

Quote from bwolinsky:

The 8 figure is within 4 months of 7 figures that's currently 8-10 months away, but 9 figure $100 mil is out of reach as soon as position limits kick in, but by then opm funding should not be a problem.

Really, I know I have a holy grail, even if it's 4 different systems combined I'd say they might be the best models in the world.


What $ amount did you start with?

I'd be happy with hitting the $2,000,000 mark in 10 years, and 4 in 15 years. Life's too short to chase mega bucks. Early retirement wih a few million is more than enough, but I guess I am a little older than you so my priorities are different.

Posted by bwolinsky on 02-22-12 12:46 AM:

Quote from bhardy307:

What $ amount did you start with?


Not pocket change. I'd prefer not to say for proprietary reasons.

__________________
HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

Bud Fox

Wall Street

Posted by IanMacQuaide on 02-22-12 02:07 AM:

What are the largest fortunes ever made by INDEPENDENT traders?



Part of the problem is how would one know about good traders who just don't shout about it?
Brokers can't just go name a client who's making 250K a yr trading the Russell to anyone who asks.

__________________
too soon old, too late smart

Posted by achilles28 on 02-22-12 02:50 AM:

Quote from bwolinsky:

You really haven't put any thought to having a plan for billions have you? Mine doesn't just including assuming I can time markets my whole life.

You're probably missing the 3-5 years with final 2 years of pure analysis I just went through to get here. There was no trading until there was a plan, and while there was a plan for all of my trading career, it has just changed to better and better methods and I'm doing really well with what I'm doing right now.

The first two units are pretty sweet. The max 416 units of my model will be pretty sweet, too, but after that I'll have to try scaling into ETF's but will be limited by that too simply by liquidity for ETF's, but position limits for futures.


Out of curiosity, how much have you returned on your base capital, since inception?

Posted by kinggyppo on 02-22-12 03:07 AM:

Posted by clacy on 02-22-12 03:16 AM:

Quote from bwolinsky:

You really haven't put any thought to having a plan for billions have you? Mine doesn't just including assuming I can time markets my whole life.

You're probably missing the 3-5 years with final 2 years of pure analysis I just went through to get here. There was no trading until there was a plan, and while there was a plan for all of my trading career, it has just changed to better and better methods and I'm doing really well with what I'm doing right now.

The first two units are pretty sweet. The max 416 units of my model will be pretty sweet, too, but after that I'll have to try scaling into ETF's but will be limited by that too simply by liquidity for ETF's, but position limits for futures.


If things don't go according to plan, it won't be because of a lack of confidence

Posted by achilles28 on 02-22-12 03:26 AM:

Quote from bwolinsky:

You really haven't put any thought to having a plan for billions have you? Mine doesn't just including assuming I can time markets my whole life.


Nor does it include a plan to formulate a coherent sentence, either?

Posted by d08 on 02-22-12 03:36 AM:

Quote from bwolinsky:

The 8 figure is within 4 months of 7 figures that's currently 8-10 months away, but 9 figure $100 mil is out of reach as soon as position limits kick in, but by then opm funding should not be a problem.

Really, I know I have a holy grail, even if it's 4 different systems combined I'd say they might be the best models in the world.


Deja Vu. That's what you said in 2007 too Beau, or did you forget already?

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-22-12 03:42 AM:

Quote from bwolinsky:

You really haven't put any thought to having a plan for billions have you? Mine doesn't just including assuming I can time markets my whole life.


I will also add that in the same period of time that your covestor account has lost money, I have almost doubled my little $2000 account to $3723. Account opened Nov. 1st, 2011. That's 3.5 months. You can add a minimum of $180 to that given my current XAU/USD trade is still pending, but the trailing stop guarantees $180 minimum minus slippage. At that rate I should hit 1 million pretty quickly!

Try just staring at one thing for 6 months. After a while you start to just "feel" how it trades. Sorry if that sounds a little too touchy feely for you.

No indicators. Just candle sticks and a moving average. 1 min/5 min/1hour/1 day charts.

Posted by Swan Noir on 02-22-12 07:58 AM:

Here we have a post where people speak of billions, are worried about hitting position limits ... etc. While dreaming big is probably a healthy thing to do there are points where a reality check does come in handy.

__________________
Swan Noir

Posted by Swan Noir on 02-22-12 08:22 AM:

For many years it was rumored that Jeffry Picower was Goldman's largest individual client and that his trading skill left them with their mouth hanging open in amazement. His widow forked out over seven billion last year in a claw back settlement with the Madoff Trustee where Picower was clearly an integral part (in many ways a partner) in Madoff's scheme.

Leaving aside that segment of the fortune that was tainted by illegal activity the man's reputation as a trader was that of a near psychic and I doubt the guys at Goldman are easy to impress.

__________________
Swan Noir

Posted by Joovenile Jatt on 02-22-12 09:05 PM:

Quote from Swan Noir:

For many years it was rumored that Jeffry Picower was Goldman's largest individual client and that his trading skill left them with their mouth hanging open in amazement. His widow forked out over seven billion last year in a claw back settlement with the Madoff Trustee where Picower was clearly an integral part (in many ways a partner) in Madoff's scheme.

Leaving aside that segment of the fortune that was tainted by illegal activity the man's reputation as a trader was that of a near psychic and I doubt the guys at Goldman are easy to impress.



Pfft. Anyone who got into bed with Madoff isn't worthy of ANY respect. If he was that great he wouldn't have needed to get involved in a Ponzi scheme to steal innocent peoples' money.

Any why wouldn't Goldman Sachs or any other bank be easy to impress? Do they have ANY great traders these days at all? They just go long on the simple premise that the market goes up 80% of the time and look like superstars for 4 years until they do the same in the bearish 5th year and lose 10 times more than they accumulated in the previous 4 years. Mind you, if your working on an ANNUAL BONUS BASIS, the trader still ends up pretty rich having pocketed 4 years of bonuses even though overall he LOST THE BANK MONEY.

__________________
My 'package' is guaranteed to stimulate

Posted by Swan Noir on 02-22-12 10:16 PM:

I didn't know trading talent immunized anyone from being greedy scum. I have been told by someone from GS that the man was virtually psychic when it came to trading and that Goldman did not have even a single client that was even close in ability.

Your analysis of Goldman's business model might be a bit simplistic. And yes, they do have at least a few talented traders.

Respect? Maybe Albert Schweitzer

Quote from Joovenile Jatt:

Pfft. Anyone who got into bed with Madoff isn't worthy of ANY respect. If he was that great he wouldn't have needed to get involved in a Ponzi scheme to steal innocent peoples' money.

Any why wouldn't Goldman Sachs or any other bank be easy to impress? Do they have ANY great traders these days at all? They just go long on the simple premise that the market goes up 80% of the time and look like superstars for 4 years until they do the same in the bearish 5th year and lose 10 times more than they accumulated in the previous 4 years. Mind you, if your working on an ANNUAL BONUS BASIS, the trader still ends up pretty rich having pocketed 4 years of bonuses even though overall he LOST THE BANK MONEY.

__________________
Swan Noir

Posted by mokwit on 02-22-12 10:25 PM:

Quote from Swan Noir:

For many years it was rumored that Jeffry Picower was Goldman's largest individual client and that his trading skill left them with their mouth hanging open in amazement. His widow forked out over seven billion last year in a claw back settlement with the Madoff Trustee where Picower was clearly an integral part (in many ways a partner) in Madoff's scheme.

Leaving aside that segment of the fortune that was tainted by illegal activity the man's reputation as a trader was that of a near psychic and I doubt the guys at Goldman are easy to impress.


Isn't that the cover up spin? The Goldman letter saying he was self directed and held AAPL shares was signed by a very junior VP.

seem to remember public records showed that he was associated with a failed USD50-100m biotech company and not much else.

It seems unclear how Picower made his money other than disproportionate disbursements from Madoff.

__________________
Regret is useless.

Posted by bwolinsky on 02-22-12 10:35 PM:

Quote from d08:

Deja Vu. That's what you said in 2007 too Beau, or did you forget already?


I believe the pairs model as it was at that time netted 57% to s&p's 48% loss.

__________________
HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

Bud Fox

Wall Street

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-22-12 10:42 PM:

Quote from bwolinsky:

I believe the pairs model as it was at that time netted 57% to s&p's 48% loss.


Yes, but that's how these bear focused models work. They get it right when the crash happens, but get it wrong the other 80% of the time. Lol. Just teasing you, Beau.

Posted by Swan Noir on 02-22-12 10:47 PM:

It was a mid-level GS guy who told me that those in a position to know thought he was the best. True? No way to know and I do not claim to know. But I can tell you that I'm not going to assume that just because he was a crook that he had no talent. That is just a foolish way to think.

Quote from mokwit:

Isn't that the cover up spin? The Goldman letter saying he was self directed and held AAPL shares was signed by a very junior VP.

seem to remember public records showed that he was associated with a failed USD50-100m biotech company and not much else.

It seems unclear how Picower made his money other than disproportionate disbursements from Madoff.

__________________
Swan Noir

Posted by bwolinsky on 02-22-12 10:55 PM:

Quote from achilles28:

Nor does it include a plan to formulate a coherent sentence, either?


Or work on completing a ddoc.

__________________
HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

Bud Fox

Wall Street

Posted by Kevin Schmit on 02-22-12 11:33 PM:

Quote from bwolinsky:

I think my only limit in the next two years to ten figures is the position limits.

Well, that and not actually having a profitable trading method.

You apparent lack of any trading skills whatsoever is a bigger impediment than any position limits. I have been tracking your models for years on Collective2 and now on CoVestor. I don't see any improvement over time.

A month or so ago you confidently predicted you would win the Robbins World Cup Trading Championship. I check the leaderboard for that contest weekly, yet never see your name:

http://www.worldcupadvisor.com/worl...ault_nwcc2.aspx

First, find a winning trading method. Once you've got that, then you can start to worry about position limits.

Posted by trading spaces on 02-22-12 11:39 PM:

Quote from Swan Noir:

For many years it was rumored that Jeffry Picower was Goldman's largest individual client and that his trading skill left them with their mouth hanging open in amazement. His widow forked out over seven billion last year in a claw back settlement with the Madoff Trustee where Picower was clearly an integral part (in many ways a partner) in Madoff's scheme.

Leaving aside that segment of the fortune that was tainted by illegal activity the man's reputation as a trader was that of a near psychic and I doubt the guys at Goldman are easy to impress.


I suppose if you had a large income from madoff every month then you could average losers or pyramid winners knowing you had the cash flow not to worry.

Posted by bwolinsky on 02-22-12 11:52 PM:

Quote from Kevin Schmit:

Well, that and not actually having a profitable trading method.

You apparent lack of any trading skills whatsoever is a bigger impediment than any position limits. I have been tracking your models for years on Collective2 and now on CoVestor. I don't see any improvement over time.

A month or so ago you confidently predicted you would win the Robbins World Cup Trading Championship. I check the leaderboard for that contest weekly, yet never see your name:

http://www.worldcupadvisor.com/worl...ault_nwcc2.aspx

First, find a winning trading method. Once you've got that, then you can start to worry about position limits.


I became a World Cup Advisor, and would be in the top 3 with the model I have for them.

The returns are quite large. I may not be in the contest as I had thought but the trading I did during incubation left them no choice but to offer my model.


*********NEWS FLASH FOR KEVIN SCHMIT*********

I HAVE SEVERAL PROFITABLE METHODS

__________________
HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

Bud Fox

Wall Street

Posted by mokwit on 02-23-12 01:16 AM:

Quote from Swan Noir:

It was a mid-level GS guy who told me that those in a position to know thought he was the best. True? No way to know and I do not claim to know. But I can tell you that I'm not going to assume that just because he was a crook that he had no talent. That is just a foolish way to think.


He was clearly a very talented crook, talented trader I am not so sure................

__________________
Regret is useless.

Posted by traderchi128 on 02-25-12 09:21 PM:

Quote from bwolinsky:

The 8 figure is within 4 months of 7 figures that's currently 8-10 months away, but 9 figure $100 mil is out of reach as soon as position limits kick in, but by then opm funding should not be a problem.

Really, I know I have a holy grail, even if it's 4 different systems combined I'd say they might be the best models in the world.



8 figures with a 50k account? You sure do have high goals. But...if you have some holy grail how come only 50k in your account? If it was really a good scalable strategy you would be trading a lot more no?

Posted by bwolinsky on 02-26-12 12:07 AM:

Quote from traderchi128:

8 figures with a 50k account? You sure do have high goals. But...if you have some holy grail how come only 50k in your account? If it was really a good scalable strategy you would be trading a lot more no?


I'm doing enough at 27 just to have that much proprietary capital. I started trading in November, and as we were working out what the best versions of our models were, trading futures just so we have the minimum 3 month track record the NFA requires you to have rather than work on formatting compliant hypothetical results.

__________________
HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

Bud Fox

Wall Street

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-26-12 12:13 AM:

Quote from bwolinsky:

I'm doing enough at 27 just to have that much proprietary capital. I started trading in November, and as we were working out what the best versions of our models were, trading futures just so we have the minimum 3 month track record the NFA requires you to have rather than work on formatting compliant hypothetical results.


Wow, you started when I did, but I've doubled my money in that period of time. How about you?

Posted by bwolinsky on 02-26-12 05:52 PM:

Quote from bhardy307:

Wow, you started when I did, but I've doubled my money in that period of time. How about you?


You started out minus 50%, and you can't have it both ways. Doubling after minus 50% means you are breakeven, so quit lying.

__________________
HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

Bud Fox

Wall Street

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-26-12 06:01 PM:

Quote from bwolinsky:

You started out minus 50%, and you can't have it both ways. Doubling after minus 50% means you are breakeven, so quit lying.


No, I started at $2000 in November, the minimum required to open a standard account at FXCM. I now have a little over $4000.

Posted by bwolinsky on 02-26-12 06:05 PM:

Quote from bhardy307:

No, I started at $2000 in November, the minimum required to open a standard account at FXCM. I now have a little over $4000.


Your posts say otherwise. It sounds like you started with $4-5,000, lost some, now claiming you made it on the way up. Anybody watching your posts will also get that impression.

$2000 risking your entire account isn't anything to be proud of.

__________________
HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

Bud Fox

Wall Street

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-26-12 06:14 PM:

Quote from bwolinsky:

Your posts say otherwise. It sounds like you started with $4-5,000, lost some, now claiming you made it on the way up. Anybody watching your posts will also get that impression.

$2000 risking your entire account isn't anything to be proud of.


This is where I began on Nov. 04, you stupid idiot!

Obviously, I came to my senses, thanks to NoDoji and a few others, and didn't follow through with my plan. In fact, if you read through this thread you will discover that the final balance I started with was $2000 not the original $3000 I planned.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...=6&pagenumber=1


I wrote this:

Quote from bhardy307:

I guess I have Mr Berlusconi's to thank for the sudden drop in the Gold price which saved my butt. He resigned.

Just learned from FXCM that my little plan to transfer money back and forth from my mini to micro account isn't as easy as I thought. So, I will put only $1500 in the mini and transfer the balance out of the micro into the mini, for a total of $2000. I'll set aside the other $1000.

Also, for those of you who are interested in FXCM. The mini account does not limit you to mini lots or greater. You can also trade micro lots if you ask special permission.

... no more upates until transfers complete.


However, I discover that the CFD account does not support micro lots afterall. So, I deposited $2000 only in the CFD account to satisfy the minimum deposit requirement, and then promptly removed it again. I have been experimenting with small balances ever since.

Posted by HATEtheRisk on 02-26-12 11:04 PM:

My name is HateTheRisk, and i have made in 4 years from 100,- € to about 6.000.000,- Euros.

I am 28 years old.

And i will not stop trading before i have 100.000.000,- Euros.
I give myself 20 years for it, right from now.

Only then i feel good and worth to be one of the Best.
I will do it, not do it with brokers like IB, i do it with private banking in currency trading, thats all i need, you fuckas.

From there, i will see, if i want to go further.........
Making money is easy, just like taking a shit on the toillet....

I have all i need to do it, it just needs time.

Over 100M is not important.

With 100M i am in the world class elite league and that is all what counts................................

I am unstopable, because i am the greatest.

You all can lick my ass.

Cheers



I am the Best.

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-26-12 11:12 PM:

Quote from HATEtheRisk:

My name is HateTheRisk, and i have made in 4 years from 100,- € to about 6.000.000,- Euros.

I am 28 years old.

And i will not stop trading before i have 100.000.000,- Euros.
I give myself 20 years for it, right from now.

Only then i feel good and worth to be one of the Best.
I will do it, not do it with brokers like IB, i do it with private banking in currency trading, thats all i need, you fuckas.

From there, i will see, if i want to go further.........
Making money is easy, just like taking a shit on the toillet....

I have all i need to do it, it just needs time.

Over 100M is not important.

With 100M i am in the world class elite league and that is all what counts................................

I am unstopable, because i am the greatest.

You all can lick my ass.

Cheers



I am the Best.


Did you seriously start at only 100 euros. Am I reading that correctly?

Posted by HATEtheRisk on 02-26-12 11:33 PM:

Quote from bhardy307:

Did you seriously start at only 100 euros. Am I reading that correctly?


Yes, but i have paid about 20.000,- € for learning until to the point, when i have figuared it all out and have put my mind in the right warrior mode.

Did you get my private message about my risk managment strategies ? then it is no miracle how to make it big from a little bit....

Riskmanagment is the key, after perfect 90% predicting strategies...

Its just betting the hell out of it every fucking time and being right, while saving a good bunch of it after every reaching new level......

The riskmanagment i told you in Private message is essential, doesnt matter with how much you money you trade.........

Did you see the big trade on EURJPY last month over 500pips, just so easy to take money of there, while switching on and off between shorter time trades..............

Thats the perfection i am talking about, i dont care how much money a trader makes, its only about me, and my setups, and the timemanagment, to predict what will start first and when to switch correctly............

Thats hardcore.................

New week already started, and i am bored to dead, i hate trading for being so boring.......aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......

money heals my pains............

Fuck off.............

Posted by Rationalize on 02-26-12 11:35 PM:

Quote from bwolinsky:

Doubling after minus 50% means you are breakeven, so quit lying.


I get -25%.

Either way, time to close this thread.

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-26-12 11:42 PM:

Quote from Rationalize:

I get -25%.

Either way, time to close this thread.



Urrrr.... from $2000 to $4246 is 112.3% in about 4 months.

HateTheRisk, yes, I got your Money management ideas. They look quite interesting, and I will give them a try. Sorry, I didn't reply, but you have your settings set so that you can not receive pm's, or did you change that again?

Thanks again for your help and suggestions.

Posted by cyoungmark on 02-26-12 11:43 PM:

Quote from HATEtheRisk:

My name is HateTheRisk, and i have made in 4 years from 100,- € to about 6.000.000,- Euros.

I am 28 years old.

And i will not stop trading before i have 100.000.000,- Euros.
I give myself 20 years for it, right from now.

Only then i feel good and worth to be one of the Best.
I will do it, not do it with brokers like IB, i do it with private banking in currency trading, thats all i need, you fuckas.

From there, i will see, if i want to go further.........
Making money is easy, just like taking a shit on the toillet....

I have all i need to do it, it just needs time.

Over 100M is not important.

With 100M i am in the world class elite league and that is all what counts................................

I am unstopable, because i am the greatest.

You all can lick my ass.

Cheers



I am the Best.


This should be put on 4chan, and laughed at for years.

Posted by HATEtheRisk on 02-26-12 11:45 PM:

@bhardy

You must know, for me it is very important to see my trading capital all the time at risk, doesnt matter if i have an open position or not.

So, like you told me, you are still on the first level with getting from 100,- $ to 10k, right.

In my business i know 6 levels, in Euros or US Dollaz...

1) 100,- -> 1.000,-
2) 1.000,- -> 10.000,-
3) 10.000,- -> 100.000,-
4) 100.000,- -> 1.000.000,-
5) 1.000.000,- -> 10.000.000,-
6) 10.000.000,- -> 100.000.000,-

Its the "just add a zero game"....

The cool thing about this business, is that it is on every trade and level the same thing, you just have to do it with the right business partners......means if you want to make millions, you have do it with the right "big" brokers and the more the better............

Since you are fighting to come around 50k CAD, if have read so far from your posts.

i suggest a withrawing plan like this.... for your one broker.....

Start:

1) 100,- CAD -> 6.000,- / - 1.000,- CAC
2) 5.000,- -> 15.000,- / - 5.000,-
3) 10.000,- -> 30.000,- / - 5.000,-
4) 25.000,- -> 45.000,- / - 5.000,-
5) 40.000,- -> 70.000,- / - 10.000,-
6) 60.000,- -> 120.000,- / - 20.000,-
7) 100.000,- -> 150.000,- / - 20.000,-
8) 130.000,- -> 180.000,- / - 20.000,-

and so on...

I dont know how other traders do it, but only the safed money i do withraw after my plan to my bank account, is my only true reward what will last for ever.......without any risk......

You must have a withrawing plan for every trading account and follow it precisiely, it will satisfy you.......to follow your plan...

PEACE

Posted by HATEtheRisk on 02-27-12 12:02 AM:

Quote from clacy:

For some reason the posters that use multiple smiley faces in every post lose all credibility, IMO. I just tend to doubt that a true trader with $6mm uses 3 emoticons every single time they type a sentence, but that's just me.


You make me, fucking gonna hate you idiots like you....

I have three smiles on all the time.

Because 3 is the magic number. Didnt you know that...

Fuck you and you wannabies and haters and whatever.......

I am telling you the true..... and i am still very young and make enough to have peace for the fucking rest of my life....
So fuck you..........
Do it the same way, as i......or shut up.........loser.........

------------------------

I went through hell in my young life, really i already was a few times before killing myself, because i didnt want to end as a normal poor guy, working as a slave for some asshole.......

I got throught it, and i will never forget.
Never forget the mobbing on the workplace as i worked as a callagent or for mc donalds or as a electrician........

I always was a hippie and was stoned all the time and i hated just everyone, expect my buddies.................

But once i found my way to trading i gained hope for my sight again........and i didnt stop trying against everyting and everyone else opinion to succeed in my goal, to reach my dream, to show it all you mohtafuckas, that i am the best....
so i am independent and i dont care about you or anybody, because i have enough money for my hole life, and i have the knowledge to make it as big as i want......... as i want......

its just a matter of how i want................most important is for me to be happy, not be the richest asshole on this planet.....

You can not reach me, doesnt matter how hard you try.......


Still, i am vey tolerant and wish everyone the best, but you must know that only with suffering you will learn.....the fuck of the system in this universum is that humans only learn through pain......... nothing else...............



I hate dumbass mainstream idiots.....be different or shut the fuck up.........

Posted by atticus on 02-27-12 12:24 AM:

Yeah, the smilies are where he loses credibility... not the 100 to 6MM nonsense, oh no. Not that.

Posted by johnnyqpublic on 02-27-12 12:24 AM:

Quote from HATEtheRisk:

New week already started, and i am bored to dead, i hate trading for being so boring.......aaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......

money heals my pains............

Fuck off.............


It's such boredom that drives people to troll ET, I am sure...

Posted by HATEtheRisk on 02-27-12 12:46 AM:

Quote from atticus:

Yeah, the smilies are where he loses credibility... not the 100 to 6MM nonsense, oh no. Not that.


I thougth you are cool.. Atticus....but you dissapointed me......

Your brother have just alone 50M in IB.

How does he made it, how old is he, which how much does he start.

how old am i, with how much started i.....

Whats your problem.........

Whats the point of posting here anyways..........

I love trading, it is all i have and i am the best in it.......nobody can take this away from me....

You atticus think, you are better than me, just because you are older and have more money than me. i give a fuck about you....
I have my own life to life and i do the best i can and i wont give up before i can compare to guys like your brother.........

ET sucks, just too many idiots.

I am a real trader, you know. Every day, every week, every month.

Get lost.

Fuck USA....

Posted by johnnyqpublic on 02-27-12 12:51 AM:

Quote from HATEtheRisk:

I thougth you are cool.. Atticus....but you dissapointed me......

Your brother have just alone 50M in IB.

...

Get lost.

Fuck USA....



If I had a cool €6M in the bank I'd probably have better things to do than defend my impugned honor on ET, but maybe I just have thick skin...

__________________
"I have three smiles on all the time." -- HateTheRisk

Posted by HATEtheRisk on 02-27-12 01:02 AM:

Quote from johnnyqpublic:

If I had a cool €6M in the bank I'd probably have better things to do than defend my impugned honor on ET, but maybe I just have thick skin...


Look,

i am totally drunken.....and listen to death metal....

and i am bored to dead, because it needs another 4 hours before the new week starts and i can work... i have no girlfriend to fuck and i am sooooooooooooooo booooooooooooored....

of course i have a thick skin, thick like the one of a elephanthe...

Bla bla bla bla bla...

I really thought atticus were cool.......its a shame.......

I have to make the bottle empty now, .......

Cheers.....

Posted by HATEtheRisk on 02-27-12 01:07 AM:

Quote from bhardy307:



HateTheRisk, yes, I got your Money management ideas. They look quite interesting, and I will give them a try. Sorry, I didn't reply, but you have your settings set so that you can not receive pm's, or did you change that again?

Thanks again for your help and suggestions.


Hey, bhardy........

Please, take this strategies i told you serious, they are worth very much....

I use them all the time.........

How i told you they go manage the risk and profits with the flow of yourself..........

you can not lose much with it, but you can win much.....

Thats the point....

Please use it, i just wanted to help you.........

Best Regards.....



Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-27-12 01:15 AM:

HateTheRisk, I'll reply properly in a couple of hours. Pressured by wife at the moment. Sorry.

Posted by tihfa on 02-27-12 01:59 AM:

Quote from HATEtheRisk:

Hey, bhardy........

Please, take this strategies i told you serious, they are worth very much....

I use them all the time.........

How i told you they go manage the risk and profits with the flow of yourself..........

you can not lose much with it, but you can win much.....

Thats the point....

Please use it, i just wanted to help you.........

Best Regards.....





Why dont you share it with all of us then?

Danke

Posted by atticus on 02-27-12 02:08 AM:

Quote from HATEtheRisk:

I thougth you are cool.. Atticus....but you dissapointed me......

Your brother have just alone 50M in IB.

How does he made it, how old is he, which how much does he start.

[snipped the clocktower Hinckley ramblings]



My brother made it in telecom as a stakeholder in CLECs. No real risk outside of the initial $2MM he put into the start-up. Analogous to the ibanker risking his bonus in company shares. He's been in telecom all of his working career and invested every dime of his bonus in HFs or start-ups.

Leverage in capital markets. The edge of which is disproportionate to the risk... allotments of insider capital being completely arbitrary. I am not envious, just see the whole system as comical and completely anti-meritocratic.

My point was the ludicrous fantasy that you turned 100 in 6MM. At least we could have suspended disbelief had you made it at least remotely possible.

Posted by athlonmank8 on 02-27-12 02:22 AM:

Quote from HATEtheRisk:

Look,

i am totally drunken.....and listen to death metal....

and i am bored to dead, because it needs another 4 hours before the new week starts and i can work... i have no girlfriend to fuck and i am sooooooooooooooo booooooooooooored....

of course i have a thick skin, thick like the one of a elephanthe...

Bla bla bla bla bla...

I really thought atticus were cool.......its a shame.......

I have to make the bottle empty now, .......

Cheers.....



And slowing the train comes off the rails........

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-27-12 02:24 AM:

Quote from atticus:

My brother made it in telecom as a stakeholder in CLECs. No real risk outside of the initial $2MM he put into the start-up. Analogous to the ibanker risking his bonus in company shares. He's been in telecom all of his working career and invested every dime of his bonus in HFs or start-ups.

Leverage in capital markets. The edge of which is disproportionate to the risk... allotments of insider capital being completely arbitrary. I am not envious, just see the whole system as comical and completely anti-meritocratic.

My point was the ludicrous fantasy that you turned 100 in 6MM. At least we could have suspended disbelief had you made it at least remotely possible.


Atticus, twice since november, I have taken a small $100 account and turned it into $900 ( and promptly lost it ), trading a gold cfd. For an experienced person, why is it so hard to believe that $100 became $1000, $1000 became $10,000, $10,000 became $100,000 etc. ?

Posted by atticus on 02-27-12 02:41 AM:

Quote from bhardy307:

Atticus, twice since november, I have taken a small $100 account and turned it into $900 ( and promptly lost it ), trading a gold cfd. For an experienced person, why is it so hard to believe that $100 became $1000, $1000 became $10,000, $10,000 became $100,000 etc. ?


I took $4k to $200k in 14 weeks in exotics -- equity vol DNTs and I literally went all-in on every weekly expiration, going 14 for 14. I hit the dealer's (BOM) position limits and wired out. There is nobody on this Earth that took a CFD or FX spot account from 100 to 6MM. The product simply doesn't support the claim (neither does trading in exotics). Those kind of compounded returns require that the trader go (nearly) all-in w/o regard to notional risk. Looks great on paper, but nobody actually trades that way with any real success.

So would you like to wager your portfolio net liq on the legitimacy of the 60,000x return? It cannot be done with a portfolio dependent on variation-margin.

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-27-12 02:47 AM:

Quote from atticus:

I took $4k to $200k in 14 weeks in exotics. There is nobody on this Earth that took a CFD of FX spot account from 100 to 6MM. The product simply doesn't support the claim (neither does trading in exotics). Those kind of compounded returns require that the trader go (nearly) all-in w/o regard to notional risk. Looks great on paper, but nobody actually trades that way with any real success.

So would you like to wager your portfolio net liq on the legitimacy of the 60,000x return?


HateTheRisk, isn't trading CFDs. As far as I can gather, he is trading forex. I don't honestly know which currency pairs he works with.

When I feel a little more skilled, I will likely shift to oil futures. What NoDoji is managing with (CL ? ) looks rather interesting to me.

As for going all in, I've done this a couple of time with small $100 accounts. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't. I was proposing a few days ago the idea of depositing a single trade risk into forex account and going all in on that account. This works with FXCM since you aren't responsible for a negative balance. You're stopped out before that happens.

Posted by atticus on 02-27-12 02:49 AM:

Quote from bhardy307:

HateTheRisk, isn't trading CFDs. As far as I can gather, he is trading forex. I don't honestly know which currency pairs he works with.

When I feel a little more skilled, I will likely shift to oil futures. What NoDoji is managing with (CL ? ) looks rather interesting to me.


CL is a killer. Everyone on this board who trades it is risking a multiple of their profit target. Every single one of them has a -PF. If your goal is to donate to the CL Gods, then feel free to do so.

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-27-12 02:53 AM:

Quote from atticus:

CL is a killer. Everyone on this board who trades it is risking a multiple of their profit target. Every single one of them has a -PF. If your goal is to donate to the CL Gods, then feel free to do so.



I see. So you don't believe NoDoji's claim of a $90,000 scalping income with $10,000 of tradable capital, trading CL?

Posted by atticus on 02-27-12 02:54 AM:

Quote from bhardy307:

I see. So you don't believe NoDoji's claim of a $90,000 scalping income with $10,000 of tradable capital, trading CL?


No I don't. Not on the size she's trading. Pure fiction. 9x return on margin (or better assuming the entire 10k is not allocated to haircut) in CL per year? I'd bet that amount that it's BS.

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-27-12 03:18 AM:

Quote from atticus:

No I don't. Not on the size she's trading. Pure fiction. 9x return on margin (or better assuming the entire 10k is not allocated to haircut) in CL per year? I'd bet that amount that it's BS.


Do you believe me when I claimed to have doubled by initial $2000 account since the beginning of november, 2011, trading a gold CFD? It was rather funny feeling to be called a liar by bwolinsky of all people.

Its a strange place, ET. Increasingly, I get the feeling that everybody is full of it.

Posted by atticus on 02-27-12 03:19 AM:

Quote from bhardy307:

Do you believe me when I claimed to have doubled by initial $2000 account since the beginning of november, 2011, trading a gold CFD? It was rather funny feeling to be called a liar by bwolinsky of all people.

Its a strange place, ET. Increasingly, I get the feeling that everybody is full of it.


Sure, nothing out of the ordinary.

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-27-12 03:26 AM:

Quote from atticus:

Sure, nothing out of the ordinary.


Good. Because, I don't believe it is unreasonable to continue in the same way for the rest of the year, doubling again, and again to about $16,000. That's my year end goal for 2012.

Posted by atticus on 02-27-12 03:27 AM:

I'll enter (and win) that World Cup thing in 2013 if for no other reason than to piss-off Beau. We'll see what can be done with futures.

Posted by SimpleTrades on 02-27-12 03:32 AM:

Quote from atticus:

I'll enter (and win) that World Cup thing in 2013 if for no other reason than to piss-off Beau. We'll see what can be done with futures.


Don't worry about Beau. By next year he'll be in a padded cell.

Posted by HATEtheRisk on 02-27-12 03:37 AM:

very funny guys, 1,5hours left to start the new week...my bottle whisky is almost empty, probably will take a nap for a few hours....

HEHEHEHEHE

@oh my dear ATTICUS,,,,

i thought you are in the major class, 50MMMMMM and up........

I see myself as very poor with just 6M€, i mean its financial trading, you always must compare yourself to institutions traders...... I do ....

I traded CFDs, of course, why not, its the best....

Never traded real anything else than FX and some Commodities, mainly: Gold/USD, Brent/USD, Wheat, Corn, S+P500, Sugar, White Sugar, Coffee C, Coffee Robusta, Orange Juice....
But mainly FX Majors, also including ZAR, HUF, CZK.....dont know there are so many markets to choose from, to play the weekly big profit game..............thats no problem at all......

I also have 5 different brokers, so making millions is no problem...and i dont trade with small brokers........

Every FX trade, who you do not trade on the real FX market is like a CFD.......only if you do private banking with a big bank or you found a own trading company you can have access to the real FX market...................

100,- EUR or USD or GPB or CHF or CAD -> to make over 5.000.000,- is not a miracle if you have a proven perfect strategie and you are working the plan. You must do for it a lot of trades and often bet on full leverage to make it...........

I did it.... and Bhardy can do it aswell.........

And i will grow over 10M € in the next 2 years and on and on and on, until i fell satisfied....

Most important is to save money..........

Dont fuck with me atticus, i still think you are cool...

God Bless you all.....

Wish you the best....

Trading is hardcore, to succeed you must be more hardcore....

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