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Posted by jarrettmp on 02-02-12 04:21 PM:

Prop Futures Trading Firm

Hi

I'm looking for a Prop firm that has access to futures.

All intraday trading (say 930-430) & I'm looking to use firm capital.

Willing to set strict trading limitations until relationship is established through good P&L

PM's are good for details or further questions, otherwise leave a name of a firm here in response and I'll call them up.

TIA

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-02-12 05:04 PM:

Re: Prop Futures Trading Firm

Quote from jarrettmp:

Hi

I'm looking for a Prop firm that has access to futures.

All intraday trading (say 930-430) & I'm looking to use firm capital.

Willing to set strict trading limitations until relationship is established through good P&L

PM's are good for details or further questions, otherwise leave a name of a firm here in response and I'll call them up.

TIA

This has been discussed at length on this forum. If you are a pure directional trader, I doubt you will have much luck. If you are a spreader or HFT guy, well, there are about 50 firms in Chicago that trade futures.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by jarrettmp on 02-02-12 05:06 PM:

I've searched the forum and gone through about 10 pages without finding anything aimed directly at what I'm looking for. Could you point me in the right direction?

It is pure directional trading.

Posted by wiesman02 on 02-02-12 05:10 PM:

Quote from jarrettmp:

I've searched the forum and gone through about 10 pages without finding anything aimed directly at what I'm looking for. Could you point me in the right direction?

It is pure directional trading.

you dont need to join a prop firm if you are trading futures. They provide plenty of leverage already.

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-02-12 05:12 PM:

Quote from jarrettmp:

I've searched the forum and gone through about 10 pages without finding anything aimed directly at what I'm looking for. Could you point me in the right direction?

It is pure directional trading.

Well, I started a thread about 40 pages long called the perfect prop firm that went into this. Unless you are willing to back yourself, no one is going to give you money on guessing market direction. There are some big firms in this town that are still putting up healthy numbers but they are spreaders and HFT shops. They make consistent money. Maybe one day that will stop and they'll start looking for punters again. It could happen. But right now these firms get 500 resumes for every one or two spots they fill. It's very competitive. VERY! If you truly believe in yourself, put some money up and see where the chips fall.

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"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by jarrettmp on 02-02-12 05:16 PM:

What do you mean "put some money up"?

I am willing to put some money up front to secure losses and/or provide trading history.

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-02-12 05:25 PM:

Quote from jarrettmp:

What do you mean "put some money up"?

I am willing to put some money up front to secure losses and/or provide trading history.

I don't understand what you are looking for. You already get 20 to 1 leverage in futures with an FCM. Are you looking for more leverage? Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by jarrettmp on 02-02-12 05:48 PM:

I'm looking for a bigger account than I can get by myself

Posted by wiesman02 on 02-02-12 05:54 PM:

Quote from jarrettmp:

I'm looking for a bigger account than I can get by myself

How big of a futures account are you looking for ?

A $20k account already gets you some crazy leverage with futures.

Posted by jarrettmp on 02-02-12 06:00 PM:

Why would I want to utilize 10:1 leverage where one or two bad slips could wipe out my equity when I can just go to a prop firm and have them back me?

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-02-12 06:01 PM:

Quote from jarrettmp:

I'm looking for a bigger account than I can get by myself

Seriously, you don't want leverage on top of leverage. Any firm you go to will make sure your money goes first so you will blow through your capital in days.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-02-12 06:02 PM:

Quote from jarrettmp:

Why would I want to utilize 10:1 leverage where one or two bad slips could wipe out my equity when I can just go to a prop firm and have them back me?

That's the thing, they are not going to back you. LOL. If you want to trade directionally, you are going to have to put up capital.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by total_keops on 02-02-12 07:03 PM:

Quote from jarrettmp:

Why would I want to utilize 10:1 leverage where one or two bad slips could wipe out my equity when I can just go to a prop firm and have them back me?

When the money you've put is gone they liquidate your positions and it's over till you put some extra chips on the table.
In the case of a gap where they can't close before the losses are bigger than your margin then I don't know what would happen.

Posted by Swan Noir on 02-02-12 07:47 PM:

Because there aren't any prop firms that are formed as not-for-profits.

Quote from jarrettmp:

Why would I want to utilize 10:1 leverage where one or two bad slips could wipe out my equity when I can just go to a prop firm and have them back me?

__________________
Swan Noir

Posted by Feeman on 02-02-12 08:07 PM:

Sounds like you want to trade with Prop's money and lay off the risk from you to them. Could happen if you have a demonstrated history of producing profits that are zero or negatively correlated to S&P.

A superstar will usually get an audience to make a case for getting hired.

Posted by jarrettmp on 02-02-12 08:10 PM:

I do have trading data.

Posted by Don Bright on 02-03-12 12:15 AM:

My friend, Mr. Maverick is right again on this one. Rarely will you see leverage on leverage like the OP is asking for. Not being critical, but the comment about losing his money and then relying on the firm to cover additional losses, sort of says it all.

Nothing against the OP for asking. But, what I generally ask people with similar questions is something like this: Hey, I have a track record playing blackjack, easily verifiable. I would like you to back me against any losses, or any big losses anyway. How about it? ref: http://www.blackjackforumonline.com...t/Brightint.htm

Look, I've been barred from blackjack, and I am pretty good. But anyone that would want to get into that relationship...well, you get the idea.

And, on the another point. If you're that good, why give away most of your profits? Simply use the leverage available to build up an account. If you're sure of yourself, whether it's $10k, $50k, or $100k, you can certainly build it up. Then you can start backing people to make even more money.

I hope that makes some sense? Mav? HitnRun?

Don

__________________
Don Bright (not an alias)
Bright Trading, LLC
http://www.stocktrading.com

Posted by jarrettmp on 02-03-12 03:13 AM:

Maybe I'm confused, but I don't think so...

I don't know what the "leverage upon leverage" is.

Simply, I'd like the same deal given to equity prop traders except I'd like to trade futures.

Posted by hitnrun on 02-03-12 03:46 AM:

it appears that futures prop firms do not back traders that trade only directional . no need for directional traders anyway

You can open a retail futures account with 20k

If your trading the emini es for example.
you can easily trade 20 contracts es mini contract intra-day only

That is huge leverage & risk. not recommended but its available

How many contracts do you need to trade ?

What contracts are you trading ?

Posted by bone on 02-03-12 12:31 PM:

Re: Re: Prop Futures Trading Firm

Quote from Maverick74:

This has been discussed at length on this forum. If you are a pure directional trader, I doubt you will have much luck. If you are a spreader or HFT guy, well, there are about 50 firms in Chicago that trade futures.

X2

They love spread traders and automated arbitrage. All others ( directional outrights ) pack sand. Nobody wants to take that kind of risk any more. Learn to spread trade if you want to find futures backing. In fact, I have several clients at prop trading firms in Singapore, London, and Chicago whose prop backers will now let them carry substantial positions overnight. And that is a bit of an evolution from where these firms were just a couple years ago. Looks like some firms have come to realize that SPAN margin credits are pretty cheap.

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Posted by total_keops on 02-03-12 12:55 PM:

Quote from jarrettmp:

Maybe I'm confused, but I don't think so...

I don't know what the "leverage upon leverage" is.

Simply, I'd like the same deal given to equity prop traders except I'd like to trade futures.

For stock guys they put 25k and instead of having the regular 4x leverage the prop firm will give them 20x leverage. This is leverage over leverage.
What you seem to talk about is deposit 25k trade futures contracts that are levered products (initial and maintenance margin depends on contract) and pop up that leverage by having the prop firm letting you trade many more contracts than you really are capable with the margin of a retail trader. It seems like it is leverage over leverage.

Posted by bone on 02-03-12 01:02 PM:

CME Member electronic trading firms are not allowed by exchange rule to take trader deposits. And they must pay their traders on a W-2 and essentially treat them as an employee.

http://www.cmegroup.com/company/mem...e106RECMApp.pdf

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-03-12 04:09 PM:

Quote from jarrettmp:

Maybe I'm confused, but I don't think so...

I don't know what the "leverage upon leverage" is.

Simply, I'd like the same deal given to equity prop traders except I'd like to trade futures.

No dude, you are confused. Futures have leverage, stocks don't. So the prop equity model basically gives guys leverage where they can't get it retail. For example, stocks are 2 to 1 levered over night retail but can be levered 10 to 20 to one or more with prop. Futures, at the retail level are already levered 20 to 1!!!!!!! So what you are saying is you want to go to a prop firm to trade futures to get more leverage on top of the 20 to 1 you are already getting? That is called leverage on leverage.

The purpose of trading futures prop is not to get extra leverage on directional bets, but to actually engage in non directional strategies one does not have access to or can execute in a retail account. For example trading the cash basis. Or trading inter-market spreads. Or trading HGT strategies that are very commission sensitive or technology dependent.

Do you understand now?

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by jarrettmp on 02-03-12 04:24 PM:

Well, I was just assuming a well funded prop firm not to use leverage on futures, since I knew them to be levered already. But, yes, I understand what you're saying now.

In terms of feasibility, yeah, I guess difficult.

Probably need a firm structured as a hedge fund.

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-03-12 04:28 PM:

Quote from jarrettmp:

Well, I was just assuming a well funded prop firm not to use leverage on futures, since I knew them to be levered already. But, yes, I understand what you're saying now.

In terms of feasibility, yeah, I guess difficult.

Probably need a firm structured as a hedge fund.

I think where our communication breakdown is, you originally said you wanted to be backed. Then you said you were willing to put up risk capital. If you put up risk capital, then you are essentially getting extra leverage from a prop firm to trade a leveraged product, futures. If you don't put up capital, you are being backed by the firm and leverage is irrelevant. But like I said, prop firms are not backing people to trade futures using directional strategies. So either you need to apply to a firm to get hired to trade more non directional strategies, or open a retail account and get 20 to 1 leverage. If you want to get hired, I should warn you that they hire about 1 guy for every 100 to 200 resumes they get. And you better have some programming experience.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by jarrettmp on 02-03-12 04:29 PM:

Thank you for the information.

Posted by bone on 02-03-12 07:36 PM:

Quote from jarrettmp:

Probably need a firm structured as a hedge fund.

Actually, what you need is a strategy that you can shop to a sophisticated futures prop firm or a hedge fund.

They want ideas from smart individuals that they can leverage the piss out of. And taking outright directional risk is not in their vocabulary at the moment. They have superfast ECN infrastructure to a gazillion exchanges for a very good reason. As mentioned earlier, look at arbitrage and spread trading. And all permutations and iterations thereof.

Posted by Feeman on 02-03-12 08:31 PM:

It should be pointed out that if, in the unlikely event, you'd get hired by a reputable prop or hedge fund, the system you bring will no longer be exclusively yours. They will take ownership of it, dissect it and ascertain how it works, so be careful before you take the plunge.

And don't be believe they won't be interested in directional trading. These folks are in the business of making money. If you got something that's scales, they'll listen.

Posted by gmst on 02-03-12 08:35 PM:

Quote from Feeman:

It should be pointed out that if, in the unlikely event, you'd get hired by a reputable prop or hedge fund, the system you bring will no longer be exclusively yours. They will take ownership of it, dissect it and ascertain how it works, so be careful before you take the plunge.

And don't be believe they won't be interested in directional trading. These folks are in the business of making money. If you got something that's scales, they'll listen.

You are offering a different viewpoint than bone and Mav - both respected traders. I am curious - what is your source of knowledge - do you work in a futures prop firm ? Or are you making an intelligent guess, especially about your 2nd paragraph? Thanks.

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-03-12 08:38 PM:

Quote from Feeman:

It should be pointed out that if, in the unlikely event, you'd get hired by a reputable prop or hedge fund, the system you bring will no longer be exclusively yours. They will take ownership of it, dissect it and ascertain how it works, so be careful before you take the plunge.

And don't be believe they won't be interested in directional trading. These folks are in the business of making money. If you got something that's scales, they'll listen.

By definition, all directional strategies can be scaled. These firms have a certain culture, I know that's hard for a lot of guys to understand, but it's true. They don't need to hire you to make a directional trade. They can do that themselves. And many of them do! BTW, just to prove my point, I have lots of friends that have successful CTA's. They have "audited" track records. Many of them tried to tap the prop route because they were getting tired of the audits and thought it would be easier to raise money. Not a one of them could get hired. Not one. All of them have documented performance going back years. The problem was, they were all directional guys.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by gmst on 02-03-12 08:41 PM:

Quote from Maverick74:

By definition, all directional strategies can be scaled. These firms have a certain culture, I know that's hard for a lot of guys to understand, but it's true. They don't need to hire you to make a directional trade. They can do that themselves. And many of them do! BTW, just to prove my point, I have lots of friends that have successful CTA's. They have "audited" track records. Many of them tried to tap the prop route because they were getting tired of the audits and thought it would be easier to raise money. Not a one of them could get hired. Not one. All of them have documented performance going back years. The problem was, they were all directional guys.

Thanks Mav for this concrete information. Not one - wow! It really puts me in a more sober mood

After reading above, it seems that opening a CTA and raising 1-10 MM is easier than getting capital from a futures prop house to trade purely directional strategies.

Edit: I think and this is purely a guess - that getting into a prop futures house for a pure directional player might still be possible - but probably not in US. Maybe in some other country where financial markets/mindset is not this developed ....probably BRIC countries, maybe even Singapore....just guessing at this point.

Posted by Feeman on 02-03-12 08:41 PM:

Quote from gmst:

You are offering a different viewpoint than bone and Mav - both respected traders. I am curious - what is your source of knowledge - do you work in a futures prop firm ? Or are you making an intelligent guess, especially about your 2nd paragraph? Thanks.

I have many friends in the hedge fund world as well as CTAs.

Posted by bone on 02-03-12 08:55 PM:

Quote from Feeman:

And don't be believe they won't be interested in directional trading. These folks are in the business of making money. If you got something that's scales, they'll listen.

The OP and thread concerned the prop futures business model, and in that regard you are a bit naive in terms of what kind of trade appeals to them in terms of a potential new hire off the street.

Posted by Feeman on 02-03-12 09:25 PM:

Quote from bone:

The OP and thread concerned the prop futures business model, and in that regard you are a bit naive in terms of what kind of trade appeals to them in terms of a potential new hire off the street.

Let me repeat this:

"I have many friends in the hedge fund world as well as CTAs."

Do you see the word prop in that comment?

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-03-12 09:27 PM:

Quote from Feeman:

It should be pointed out that if, in the unlikely event, you'd get hired by a reputable prop or hedge fund, the system you bring will no longer be exclusively yours. They will take ownership of it, dissect it and ascertain how it works, so be careful before you take the plunge.

And don't be believe they won't be interested in directional trading. These folks are in the business of making money. If you got something that's scales, they'll listen.

This quote of yours implied you were also referring to prop firms.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by Chicago_CTA on 02-03-12 09:28 PM:

Quote from Feeman:

It should be pointed out that if, in the unlikely event, you'd get hired by a reputable prop or hedge fund, the system you bring will no longer be exclusively yours. They will take ownership of it, dissect it and ascertain how it works, so be careful before you take the plunge.

And don't be believe they won't be interested in directional trading. These folks are in the business of making money. If you got something that's scales, they'll listen.

This has always scared me about approaching any futures prop firms. They'd love to steal your idea, program it into an algorithm and leave you useless to them.

If you have good techniques & methods, better to raise private capital. Just my opinion.

Posted by Feeman on 02-03-12 09:32 PM:

Quote from Maverick74:

By definition, all directional strategies can be scaled.

But in reality they can't, especially if your trading illiquid electronic instruments like FX E-mini Dow, most grains, metals and energies.

So if your strategy trades ES, ZN, or FESX to name a few, size won't disrupt the market.

Posted by Feeman on 02-03-12 09:35 PM:

Quote from Maverick74:

This quote of yours implied you were also referring to prop firms.

Agreed, I should have deleted prop.

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-03-12 09:46 PM:

Quote from Feeman:

But in reality they can't, especially if your trading illiquid electronic instruments like FX E-mini Dow, most grains, metals and energies.

So if your strategy trades ES, ZN, or FESX to name a few, size won't disrupt the market.

Huh? FX is illiquid? The Dow? Metals? Have you heard of the LME? Energy? The most liquid contract in the world. You realize the cash markets for these products dwarfs the futures markets right?

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by Feeman on 02-03-12 10:03 PM:

Quote from Maverick74:

Huh? FX is illiquid? The Dow? Metals? Have you heard of the LME? Energy? The most liquid contract in the world. You realize the cash markets for these products dwarfs the futures markets right?

I'm speaking of FX futures such as those traded on CME; ditto for the other instruments. There is little liquidity in YM, CL, SI, ZW and many others.

The OP is talking about FUTURES as far as I can tell.

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-03-12 10:05 PM:

Quote from Feeman:

I'm speaking of FX futures such as those traded on CME; ditto for the other instruments. There is little liquidity in YM, CL, SI, ZW and many others.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I'm done here.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by bone on 02-03-12 10:09 PM:

Quote from Feeman:

There is little liquidity in YM, CL, SI, ZW and many others.

Take another bong hit. Seriously. CL alone traded 1.437M contracts today on Globex.

Posted by Feeman on 02-03-12 10:10 PM:

Quote from Maverick74:

You have no idea what you are talking about. I'm done here.

That seems to be your MO at ET. You're the only one who knows what you are talking about.

Tata and happy arguing wherever you go next.

Posted by Feeman on 02-03-12 10:17 PM:

Quote from bone:

Take another bong hit. Seriously. CL alone traded 1.437M contracts today on Globex.

And what size have you seen on Bid/Ask in CL? The market is thin compared to ES and ZN, total contracts notwithstanding.

Try buying 2500 and tell us what happened to price.

Another argumentative know-it-all who's shopping for customers on ET. Feel free to follow in Mav's footsteps.

Posted by Swan Noir on 02-03-12 10:18 PM:

Is it accurate to say there is little liquidity in CL? While I don't trade it I have the impression that it is fairly liquid. During RTH and barring news how many here are trading a size that CL can't digest well?

Quote from Feeman:

I'm speaking of FX futures such as those traded on CME; ditto for the other instruments. There is little liquidity in YM, CL, SI, ZW and many others.

The OP is talking about FUTURES as far as I can tell.

__________________
Swan Noir

Posted by bone on 02-03-12 10:21 PM:

Quote from Feeman:

Try buying 2500 and tell us what happened to price.

I have personally done blocks of 5,000 within 5 cents through ICAP and TFS, clearing ICE Swaps or Clearport. I used to trade energy commercially. That's what those facilities are there for.

And I have also traded ICE Swaps and Clearport through Chicago Prop Futures Groups. I have also traded PJM-W Swaps and HHNG Swaps at Chicago Prop Firms.

I would be happy to arrange an independently verifiable wager if you doubt it.

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-03-12 10:22 PM:

Quote from Feeman:

Another argumentative know-it-all who's shopping for customers on ET.

And what size have you seen on Bid/Ask in CL? The market is thin compared to ES and ZN, total contracts notwithstanding.

Try buying 2500 and tell us what happened to price.

Damn you are clueless. If you put 2500 contracts on the bid, it would be hit in one second. Gone. Just like that. If you went to the market, you would get slipped for probably 5 ticks. You do realize that the bulk of crude trading is done on the strips right and not just the front month? And you do realize there are both exchange traded spreads that are several thousand up on both sides of the market. Not to mention the implied spreads.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by Feeman on 02-03-12 10:24 PM:

Quote from Swan Noir:

Is it accurate to say there is little liquidity in CL? While I don't trade it I have the impression that it is fairly liquid. During RTH and barring news would anyone expect more than two ticks of slippage trading 20 contracts?

20 contracts is a retail trade. How about 2500? How much slippage would you expect?

My point in this was about scale--hedge funds have no interest in playing for crumbs in the futures markets and if the OP or anyone else, thinks professionals have any interest in retailesque trades like 20 lots, then they are mistaken.

Posted by Feeman on 02-03-12 10:26 PM:

Quote from Maverick74:

Damn you are clueless. If you put 2500 contracts on the bid, it would be hit in one second. Gone. Just like that. If you went to the market, you would get slipped for probably 5 ticks. You do realize that the bulk of crude trading is done on the strips right and not just the front month? And you do realize there are both exchange traded spreads that are several thousand up on both sides of the market. Not to mention the implied spreads.

Welcome back. That was a short exit.

Posted by Feeman on 02-03-12 10:29 PM:

Quote from bone:

I have personally done blocks of 5,000 within 5 cents through ICAP and TFS, clearing ICE Swaps or Clearport. I used to trade energy commercially. That's what those facilities are there for.

And I have also traded ICE Swaps and Clearport through Chicago Prop Futures Groups. I have also traded PJM-W Swaps and HHNG Swaps at Chicago Prop Firms.

I would be happy to arrange an independently verifiable wager if you doubt it.

With that kind of pedigree, why are you hustling here to teach retail punters to trade? Bored in retirement and too much golf?

Posted by bone on 02-03-12 10:34 PM:

Quote from Feeman:

With that kind of pedigree, why are you hustling here to teach retail punters to trade? Bored in retirement and too much golf?

Pedigreed enough to be able to look at my TT screen and call you an ignorant fool. Pedigreed enough to have a WebICE and ClearPort ID. And to know where to do size for Nymex and ICE contracts.

And I clear NewEdge you dipshit.

Posted by Feeman on 02-03-12 10:39 PM:

Quote from bone:

Pedigreed enough to be able to look at my TT screen and call you an ignorant fool. Pedigreed enough to have a WebICE and ClearPort ID. And to know where to do size for Nymex and ICE contracts.

And I clear NewEdge you dipshit.

Good luck with your educational service business here on ET. I'm sure it's a good supplement to all the $millions you're earning from watching your TT screen.

Since you're so very brilliant and pedigreed, do you remember who said, "Those you can't do teach?" Given all the time you spend posting on ET, I wonder how you manage to have time for anything.

Posted by bone on 02-03-12 10:53 PM:

Quote from Feeman:

I developed an automated scalping system that can scalp futures or FX. So far I have traded DAX, NQ, YM, CL, EMD, SI, FESX, ES, ZW, and ZS from 9:30 to 12:00 ET. The software runs on NinjaTrader and coded in C#. TradingTechnologies is the datafeed.

I have watched this system trade in Sim and real money for a year and I believe it has a chance a long term edge. It is designed catch fast, short term directional movements. At times, it will stop and reverse until the daily profit/loss goal is attained.

The goal is to gain $50-$100 per instrument per contract per day (before slippage, commissions and fees. Initially, I'm trading one contract. If the system performs well, I'll increase the size. My broker is Crossland Deep Discount where I pay $.35 per side in commission plus fees.

For the purposes of this Journal, I'm going to officially start on 2/1/12 with a $10K account. I may post daily charts and/or trade blotters but will certainly include daily statements (with personal infomation omitted, of course). I'll try to be as transparent as possible.

Posted by bone on 02-03-12 10:58 PM:

Feeman, by the looks of your Crossland statement in the 'Journals' section I make or lose your account balance in a single day.

Tell Jim Zellinger and Ed Hague I said "hello" over there at Crossland - I knew them way back 20 years ago when I cleared TransMarket Group, and then later on when I cleared Advantage.

Posted by Feeman on 02-03-12 11:07 PM:

Quote from bone:

Feeman, by the looks of your Crossland statement in the 'Journals' section I make or lose your account balance in a single day.

Sure you do. That's why you solicit losing traders to pay you to learn how to trade. My guess is you're losing a lot more than making and vending helps pay the bills.

My Journal account is a test to see if an autotrade strat I created has an edge. The account balance is adequate for my stated purpose.

Posted by Shanb on 02-03-12 11:24 PM:

Quote from bone:

Feeman, by the looks of your Crossland statement in the 'Journals' section I make or lose your account balance in a single day.

Tell Jim Zellinger and Ed Hague I said "hello" over there at Crossland - I knew them way back 20 years ago when I cleared TransMarket Group, and then later on when I cleared Advantage.

ouch.

Posted by hitnrun on 02-04-12 01:12 AM:

another thread where the wheels came off the train

The thread starter sounds confused in what he wants help with anyway

Posted by Don Bright on 02-04-12 01:28 AM:

Quote from hitnrun:

another thread where the wheels came off the train

The thread starter sounds confused in what he wants help with anyway

You and Mav, and others were going above the call of duty with some good, solid advice. Not sure where things went wrong.

Don

__________________
Don Bright (not an alias)
Bright Trading, LLC
http://www.stocktrading.com

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-04-12 01:30 AM:

Quote from Don Bright:

You and Mav, and others were going above the call of duty with some good, solid advice. Not sure where things went wrong.

Don

Don, when I get involved in a thread, things always seem to go wrong. Maybe it's my people's skills.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by hitnrun on 02-04-12 01:38 AM:

I asked the thread starter

What contracts he will trade & How many does he need to trade?

No reply

maybe he figured it out by now that he does not need a prop firm
then again he seems like he does not know how leverage works

you can only lead a horse to water lol

Posted by Feeman on 02-04-12 02:14 AM:

Quote from Maverick74:

Maybe it's my people's skills.

Also, you seem very angry and looking for an argument.

If you have a therapist, consider examening this behavior.

Posted by total_keops on 02-04-12 04:40 AM:

Quote from hitnrun:

another thread where the wheels came off the train

This is the purpose of it all. This is not financial information but rather financial entertainment. I'm just pissing my panties reading all that arguing.

Posted by hitnrun on 02-04-12 05:12 AM:

the one thing you can count on here is entertainment

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-04-12 05:26 AM:

Quote from Feeman:

Also, you seem very angry and looking for an argument.

If you have a therapist, consider examening this behavior.

I have a difficult time dealing with people with IQ's under 50. Anybody who can tell me with a straight face that Crude Oil is illiquid should be in a loony bin. Your comments are outrageous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benchmark_%28crude_oil%29

"Because of its excellent liquidity and price transparency, the contract is used as a principal international pricing benchmark.

The first futures contracts on crude oil were traded in 1983, with the Chicago Board of Trade (CBOT) and the New York Mercantile Exchange (Nymex) both attempting to take advantage of the government's de-regualtion of crude oil. CBOT's initial contracts had delivery problems, so customers abandoned it for Nymex. [5]

Crude oil became the world's most actively traded commodity, and the NYMEX Division light sweet crude oil futures contract becoming the world's most liquid form for crude oil trading, as well as the world's largest-volume futures contract trading on a physical commodity. Additional risk management and trading opportunities are offered through options on the futures contract; calendar spread options; crack spread options on the pricing differential of heating oil futures and crude oil futures and gasoline futures and crude oil futures; and average price options."

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by traderchi128 on 02-19-12 08:36 PM:

Quote from Maverick74:

Well, I started a thread about 40 pages long called the perfect prop firm that went into this. Unless you are willing to back yourself, no one is going to give you money on guessing market direction. There are some big firms in this town that are still putting up healthy numbers but they are spreaders and HFT shops. They make consistent money. Maybe one day that will stop and they'll start looking for punters again. It could happen. But right now these firms get 500 resumes for every one or two spots they fill. It's very competitive. VERY! If you truly believe in yourself, put some money up and see where the chips fall.

I wouldn't say directional traders are at any disadvantage vs "hedged" traders when it comes to landing jobs at big firms. At the end of the day if you have an excellent track record, that's what is going to get you a job. A lot of the spread/hedged strategies are overcrowded trades that end up being disasterous. Just as risky at times as guys who are one sided or directional. When you look at the big "real" firms out there, First NY, Schottenfeld, Schonfeld....they probably have more directional guys.

At the end of the day if you have a scalable strategy that has excellent returns with low drawdowns, you will get into these firms....regardless if it's a spread/hedge strategy or directional.

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-20-12 01:34 AM:

Quote from traderchi128:

I wouldn't say directional traders are at any disadvantage vs "hedged" traders when it comes to landing jobs at big firms. At the end of the day if you have an excellent track record, that's what is going to get you a job. A lot of the spread/hedged strategies are overcrowded trades that end up being disasterous. Just as risky at times as guys who are one sided or directional. When you look at the big "real" firms out there, First NY, Schottenfeld, Schonfeld....they probably have more directional guys.

At the end of the day if you have a scalable strategy that has excellent returns with low drawdowns, you will get into these firms....regardless if it's a spread/hedge strategy or directional.

Those are stock firms you mentioned, not futures. And no, good directional traders don't have the same chance as spread traders. Most prop firms today rely very heavily on technology and high frequency trading. A guy who simply trades direction does not fit in well with the strengths of most prop firms.

I laid down a challenge to peternam on here to call around the various prop firms and see who would hire a pure directional trader and he never reported back to us. I already knew what the answer was.

If you want to trade direction, your best bet is to start a CTA.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by Lucias on 02-20-12 01:41 AM:

I think I said this before...

It doesn't matter what you trade or how you trade. I talked to many of these firms Mav keeps bragging on.

You will be grouped into 1 of 2 groups regardless whether you are a paper trader, spread trader, directional trader, just out of school and never traded.

You will be grouped into either

1. Made 1+ million last year
2. Didn't make a million

I think Mav is a bit of a big talker.. I wouldn't pay too much attention too him. He's out selling these firms that don't pay a salary like they are gold.

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-20-12 01:44 AM:

Quote from Lucias:

I think I said this before...

It doesn't matter what you trade or how you trade. I talked to many of these firms Mav keeps bragging on.

You will be grouped into 1 of 2 groups regardless whether you are a paper trader, spread trader, directional trader, just out of school and never traded.

You will be grouped into

1. Made 1+ million last year
2. Didn't make a million

I think Mav is a bit of a big talker.. I wouldn't pay too much attention too him. He's out selling these firms that don't pay a salary like they are gold..

lol...

Then why did you keep e-mailing me asking me for help. And of course I obliged. I sent you a list of firms to call. I have nothing to sell here but the truth. What more do you want me to do for you. Do you want me to post all 20 e-mails you sent me along with my responses? I won't do it unless you say it's OK. But I think it would be fair to show how much I tried to actually help you and give you honest advice. And I never steered you to a firm that I have any relationship with. So seriously, what more do you want me to do?

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by Lucias on 02-20-12 01:45 AM:

Bone, I don't doubt you've had some trading success. But you come off as a big blow hard.. blow blow blow. Keep it up. It'll just make you tired.

Quote from bone:

Feeman, by the looks of your Crossland statement in the 'Journals' section I make or lose your account balance in a single day.

Tell Jim Zellinger and Ed Hague I said "hello" over there at Crossland - I knew them way back 20 years ago when I cleared TransMarket Group, and then later on when I cleared Advantage.

Posted by Lucias on 02-20-12 01:47 AM:

Maverick,

I didn't know when I started that you were a blow hard. I was hoping you might fund me or have some connections.

If you remember that when this started.. I had claimed that these firms were NOT hiring discretionary traders and were looking for engineering/math types for HFT.

Now it seems you've came in agreement with me because now you are saying the same thing.

I had most of the firms you referenced me too already.. you were the one claiming 100 firms in Chicago.. you gave me a list of 30 that I could find on the web.

Yes, you speak the truth.. I did send you many PM's (not emails) asking for funding or connections. I have asked others here the same. Remember, also I knew you were running your own trading firm. This was one reason I had asked you. I thought you might see my talent and help me out.

I also remember you've said that for a retail trader that direction was the only game in town. Now you are saying that prop firms don't trade direction.. But you've also been quoted as saying the spread edges that props trade aren't accessible to the average retail trader. Sounds like a catch 22?

Quote from Maverick74:

Then why did you keep e-mailing me asking me for help. And of course I obliged. I sent you a list of firms to call. I have nothing to sell here but the truth. What more do you want me to do for you. Do you want me to post all 20 e-mails you sent me along with my responses? I won't do it unless you say it's OK. But I think it would be fair to show how much I tried to actually help you and give you honest advice. And I never steered you to a firm that I have any relationship with. So seriously, what more do you want me to do?

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-20-12 01:51 AM:

Quote from Lucias:

Maverick,

I didn't know when I started that you were a blow hard. I was hoping you might fund me or have some connections.

If you remember that when this started.. I had claimed that these firms were NOT hiring discretionary traders and were looking for engineering/math types for HFT.

Now it seems you've came in agreement with me because now you are saying the same thing.

I had most of the firms you referenced me too already.. you were the one claiming 100 firms in Chicago.. you gave me a list of 30 that I could find on the web.

I just counted btw the number of e-mails, you sent me exactly 27 e-mails. Do you know how many guys on ET would take the time to respond to 27 e-mails. Yeah dude, you're welcome.

You can find ALL the firms on the web. They are all member clearing firms and listed on the CME's website. They can't hide if they are a member firm. There are no "secret" firms out there.

And I never said you would get hired by these firms. I simply asked you to pick up the phone and call them. I told you it was going to be next to impossible. You didn't believe me. Now it seems you do but are actually attacking me for taking the time to not only respond to your e-mails but for telling you the truth. Not kosher dude, not kosher. Just saying...

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by Lucias on 02-20-12 01:54 AM:

Mav, I agree that you appear to have some expert knowledge of the industry but I also remember that when this first started I said.. these firms weren't hiring discretionary traders and you were saying sure they would. But if you look at the job adverts, you will see they want engineering/math types.. You said contact them. Yes, one gave me an offer I couldn't accept (not a Chicago prop) but most do what I say.. they group you into either make 1 million or don't. I guess what I'm saying is I don't believe it makes any difference at all to these firms HOW you trade unless you make 1 million dollars+. All the firms will "teach you their method" that are willing to do that.. this is my opinion.. Maybe I'm in the wrong to call you out but I think this whole focus on how one trades is silly once you understand how these firms "think". This is my 2 cents..

I also remember you've said that for a retail trader that direction was the only game in town. Now you are saying that prop firms don't trade direction.. But you've also been quoted as saying the spread edges that props trade aren't accessible to the average retail trader. Sounds like a catch 22?

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-20-12 01:55 AM:

Quote from Lucias:

Maverick,

I didn't know when I started that you were a blow hard. I was hoping you might fund me or have some connections.

If you remember that when this started.. I had claimed that these firms were NOT hiring discretionary traders and were looking for engineering/math types for HFT.

Now it seems you've came in agreement with me because now you are saying the same thing.

I had most of the firms you referenced me too already.. you were the one claiming 100 firms in Chicago.. you gave me a list of 30 that I could find on the web.

Yes, you speak the truth.. I did send you many PM's (not emails) asking for funding or connections. I have asked others here the same. Remember, also I knew you were running your own trading firm. This was one reason I had asked you. I thought you might see my talent and help me out.

I also remember you've said that for a retail trader that direction was the only game in town. Now you are saying that prop firms don't trade direction.. But you've also been quoted as saying the spread edges that props trade aren't accessible to the average retail trader. Sounds like a catch 22?

There is no catch 22. I said retail was the best bet to trade directional. Of course as a retail trader you are not going to have the same edges as a prop firm. You told me you were a pure directional trader and I said your best bet would be to start a CTA or just trade your own funds in a retail account and I still believe that. There is no contradiction here.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by Lucias on 02-20-12 01:57 AM:

But let's say I want to go to a prop firm.. what then? You were also quoted as saying that you didn't believe that the retail trader could get the same edge at RJO futures that these props had.. (i.e for one thing due to access to cash markets)

Quote from Maverick74:

There is no catch 22. I said retail was the best bet to trade directional. Of course as a retail trader you are not going to have the same edges as a prop firm. You told me you were a pure directional trader and I said your best bet would be to start a CTA or just trade your own funds in a retail account and I still believe that. There is no contradiction here.

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-20-12 01:58 AM:

Quote from Lucias:

Mav, I agree that you appear to have some expert knowledge of the industry but I also remember that when this first started I said.. these firms weren't hiring discretionary traders and you were saying sure they would. But if you look at the job adverts, you will see they want engineering/math types.. You said contact them. Yes, one gave me an offer I couldn't accept (not a Chicago prop) but most do what I say.. they group you into either make 1 million or don't. I guess what I'm saying is I don't believe it makes any difference at all to these firms HOW you trade unless you make 1 million dollars+. All the firms will "teach you their method" that are willing to do that.. this is my opinion.. Maybe I'm in the wrong to call you out but I think this whole focus on how one trades is silly once you understand how these firms "think". This is my 2 cents..

I also remember you've said that for a retail trader that direction was the only game in town. Now you are saying that prop firms don't trade direction.. But you've also been quoted as saying the spread edges that props trade aren't accessible to the average retail trader. Sounds like a catch 22?

Lucias, look, even as a discretionary trader these firms are going to want pedigree. I'm sorry the world works that way, but it does. I'm not saying I agree with it, it's just how the game is played. Yes, these firms do hire "discretionary" traders. You seem to be grouping discretionary with direction. They are not mutually inclusive. You can be a "discretionary" spreader. So I stand by my statement that these firms will hire "discretionary" traders. But that does not mean they will hire directional traders.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by Maverick74 on 02-20-12 02:02 AM:

Quote from Lucias:

But let's say I want to go to a prop firm.. what then? You were also quoted as saying that you didn't believe that the retail trader could get the same edge at RJO futures that these props had.. (i.e for one thing due to access to cash markets)

That is correct. One of the big edges prop firms have is the basis trade, particularly in treasuries. To get the edge in that game you need to provide liquidity in the cash market. The basis trade essentially trades the spread between a cash debt instrument and it's corresponding future. At futures expiration, the short futures trader has to locate the cheapest to deliver cash product to deliver to the futures buyer. It's essentially a synthetic option on the basis. This is a huge trade and is done in size and still has some edge to it. You cannot do this trade in a retail account without deep pockets. There is no getting around that. On top of that, if you are not a dealer, you can't get access to the note and bond auctions to bid for the debt as well.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by Lucias on 02-20-12 02:02 AM:

Thanks for that clarification.

I am just trying my own money now, anyway. I think that's what most should do. I think it is less risky then joining a firm that doesn't pay a salary. You lose 5k-10k in market.. very small risk versus giving up a career for a firm that doesn't pay a salary.. may not even allow me to trade to benefit my strengths.

I am also looking at the CTA route, as well.

Thanks for clarification on basis trade.

BTW anyone who is thinking of joining a prop firm that provides own capital (and doesnt pay asalary) first ask yourself do you have at least 1 year of savings to live on? If not then you won't be able to do it anyway.. I already had an offer but couldn't take it. I don't have 1 year of savings. I've came to a belief that its MORE risky to put on in a situation where one is cash strapped. If you can trade as long as you have some money you have a chance to make it. The worst thing is to put yourself in a situation where you are low on capital.

I believe I have a high probability of success in markets provided I have some capital eventually. Best to go the sure route.. sure route is surprisingly retail. Make them beg you to work for them..consider nothing less.

Quote from Maverick74:

Lucias, look, even as a discretionary trader these firms are going to want pedigree. I'm sorry the world works that way, but it does. I'm not saying I agree with it, it's just how the game is played. Yes, these firms do hire "discretionary" traders. You seem to be grouping discretionary with direction. They are not mutually inclusive. You can be a "discretionary" spreader. So I stand by my statement that these firms will hire "discretionary" traders. But that does not mean they will hire directional traders.

Posted by traderchi128 on 02-20-12 02:35 AM:

Quote from Maverick74:

Those are stock firms you mentioned, not futures. And no, good directional traders don't have the same chance as spread traders. Most prop firms today rely very heavily on technology and high frequency trading. A guy who simply trades direction does not fit in well with the strengths of most prop firms.

I laid down a challenge to peternam on here to call around the various prop firms and see who would hire a pure directional trader and he never reported back to us. I already knew what the answer was.

If you want to trade direction, your best bet is to start a CTA.

Those firms are primarily equity firms true. But they are more and more getting into futures as equity trading has become a circus at times. I guess it depends on what firms you are talking about. Breakwater, Jump, and some other Chicago firms definitely are more tech-trading firms.

I guess I just know a lot of pure directional traders who have been doing fine and just as well as spread guys the last few yrs. Your directional comment about just guessing is funny...probably relates to the guys at the smaller firms, and not the guys at the firms mentioned above. While a CTA is a great idea, IF you have an excellent strategy and the numbers to back it with a directional approach, there are firms out there backing these guys....you just have to do the work and find one.

Posted by logic_man on 08-24-12 04:27 AM:

Quote from Maverick74:

Those are stock firms you mentioned, not futures. And no, good directional traders don't have the same chance as spread traders. Most prop firms today rely very heavily on technology and high frequency trading. A guy who simply trades direction does not fit in well with the strengths of most prop firms.

I laid down a challenge to peternam on here to call around the various prop firms and see who would hire a pure directional trader and he never reported back to us. I already knew what the answer was.

If you want to trade direction, your best bet is to start a CTA.

Do existing CTAs hire outsiders to trade for them? Can I go to a CTA and get hired to trade direction or does every directional guy start his own CTA and do it his way?

Posted by Maverick74 on 08-24-12 05:15 AM:

Quote from logic_man:

Do existing CTAs hire outsiders to trade for them? Can I go to a CTA and get hired to trade direction or does every directional guy start his own CTA and do it his way?

Yes, CTA's allocate capital to outside CTA's all the time but not without a track record. You need to have your own CTA and usually a 3 year track record. I can't think of any CTA that would just hire a guy to trade for him because the CTA is tied to his name. Which means if you blow it up, your simply an AP (associated person) to the CTA. He is stuck with the track record and he CANNOT get rid of it. All CTA's must report their most recent 5 years of performance to investors. No CTA will take that risk. So what he would do it allocate capital to your existing CTA which you set up. Hope that makes sense.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by Jack_Larkin on 08-24-12 05:21 AM:

Quote from Maverick74:

Quote from Lucias:

Quote from Maverick74:

Quote from Lucias:

Posted by Maverick74 on 08-24-12 05:24 AM:

Quote from Jack_Larkin:

You're 6 months late to this thread dude. Just a heads up.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by Jack_Larkin on 08-24-12 05:59 AM:

Quote from Maverick74:

You're 6 months late to this thread dude. Just a heads up.

:P Just enjoyed the banter..tiz all

Posted by logic_man on 08-24-12 08:39 AM:

Quote from Maverick74:

Yes, CTA's allocate capital to outside CTA's all the time but not without a track record. You need to have your own CTA and usually a 3 year track record. I can't think of any CTA that would just hire a guy to trade for him because the CTA is tied to his name. Which means if you blow it up, your simply an AP (associated person) to the CTA. He is stuck with the track record and he CANNOT get rid of it. All CTA's must report their most recent 5 years of performance to investors. No CTA will take that risk. So what he would do it allocate capital to your existing CTA which you set up. Hope that makes sense.

Yes, that makes sense. The CTA might sub-contract out to you, but as the "general contractor", he wants to see a 3-year track record of your own CTA.

Now, can you be a CTA without actually advising anyone, just trading your own capital? If I set up a CTA structure, but only trade my own account, rather than go through the hassle of raising money, that still gives me the ability to report a 3-year track record, right? Can I set up a CTA and then use prior year's records?

I'm sure there's a web link which explains all this, but if you know the answer off-hand (or have a good link), that would be helpful.

Posted by Maverick74 on 08-24-12 02:00 PM:

Quote from logic_man:

Yes, that makes sense. The CTA might sub-contract out to you, but as the "general contractor", he wants to see a 3-year track record of your own CTA.

Now, can you be a CTA without actually advising anyone, just trading your own capital? If I set up a CTA structure, but only trade my own account, rather than go through the hassle of raising money, that still gives me the ability to report a 3-year track record, right? Can I set up a CTA and then use prior year's records?

I'm sure there's a web link which explains all this, but if you know the answer off-hand (or have a good link), that would be helpful.

Yes, you can run a CTA using only your own capital. I believe you are going to have to generate a 12 month hypothetical return when you set up your CTA. You actually have to go back and submit a fill report on every hypothetical trade and the fills have to be real traded prices. Once you have 12 months of actual trading in the CTA then you will replace the hypothetical return with the actual return. You might not have to generate the 12 month hypothetical return if you are NOT going to create a subscription and disclosure document and offer out to investors.

__________________
"Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine." Rick Blaine

Posted by logic_man on 08-24-12 02:04 PM:

Quote from Maverick74:

Yes, you can run a CTA using only your own capital. I believe you are going to have to generate a 12 month hypothetical return when you set up your CTA. You actually have to go back and submit a fill report on every hypothetical trade and the fills have to be real traded prices. Once you have 12 months of actual trading in the CTA then you will replace the hypothetical return with the actual return. You might not have to generate the 12 month hypothetical return if you are NOT going to create a subscription and disclosure document and offer out to investors.

So if I have real fills and real trades, that "hypothetical" return document should just be those fills and trades, right?

Now, do they look at any trading history prior to those 12 months or is that it? My last 12 months have been the best I've ever had, so if I get to start from there, I'll look like a trading genius, which is great.

I'm going to search online for my own info, but, again, if you know, please let me know. Thanks!

EDIT: I see the CME has a "how to be a CTA" document. I'll get the answers from there, but thanks again.

Posted by hilojack on 08-24-12 02:24 PM:

CTA's can manage many different programs, so you can compartmentalize your results by strategy. Of course this gets included in your overall results and you can't cherry pick or ignore bad results.

All you need is a different D doc for each strategy. My CTA for example, does bring on outside traders to trade off of a master account, but it is designated as such. It trades my money and not outside investors (at this stage) but should the performance continue to do well, will spin into a CP with the CTA as the CPO.

In this instance, its really no different than a hedge fund, and hedge funds take on outside traders all the time.

Hope that helps.

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