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-- It's official: Merkel seeks German F.T.T. at NYSE (http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=234699)
It's official: Merkel seeks German F.T.T. at NYSE
WOW! If the Deustche Boerse takeover of NYSE goes go through, all NYSE trades will pay any German Financial Transaction Tax.
In other words, NYSE would be DEAD
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO...114-700886.html
KIEL, Germany (Dow Jones)--Germany's Chancellor Angela Merkel Saturday found backing from her party to introduce a financial transaction tax within the euro zone if it is impossible to launch it in the European Union as a whole.
The plan was agreed to at a meeting of her conservative Christian Democratic Union here in northern Germany.
"We will aim for a quick introduction of a financial transaction tax," said the so-called Kiel Declaration, which outlines the party's road map for the rest of the year. "The tax should be shaped in a way that the interest of Germany's financial centers will be maintained."
The introduction in the euro zone alone should be a first step to be followed by efforts to get the EU as a whole and also the U.S. later on board, the declaration said.
The plan is that the tax must be paid once one of the parties involved in a financial transaction is based in a country where the tax will be applied. Merkel told reporters it is now important to see whether there is the chance that a proposal by the European Commission will find backing on the level of European finance ministers or the heads of EU leaders.
But Merkel's plan was also criticized within her own party over fears that Germany's main financial center, Frankfurt, will see capital fleeing to the City of London. The plan has also been opposed by the Free Democratic Party junior coalition partner.
Lawmaker Michael Fuchs of Merkel's CDU said at the party conference that introducing such a tax only on continental Europe and not in the U.K. would be wrong because this could be a boosting program for the City of London.
"It would be necessary for the Brits to join in," Fuchs told reporters. "The Englishmen must display European solidarity because otherwise they would get into a splendid isolation, which they should prevent."
--By Andrea Thomas, Dow Jones Newswires; 49-30-2888-4126, andrea.thomas@dowjones.com
__________________
It's only risky when you stop thinking it's risky.
SUCH BULLSHIT!!!
It's amazing. Germany will now augment its stranglehold on manufacturing with a stranglehold on financial services by strangling London and now NY with its F.T.T.
And the dupes in both countries just snooze away.
As metaphor, "While England Slept" by Winston Churchill is as timely today as it was when he penned it in 1938.
__________________
It's only risky when you stop thinking it's risky.
I see no way the UK or US embrace the FTT. Not going to happen.
NDAA was passed so a transaction tax on trades is nothing for the scum running this country - EU first - US just ahead!
So much for my dreams of living in Germany and trading there...
:/
Well, maybe I can still do it with an offshore account. But regardless, this is silly.
Quote from clacy:
I see no way the UK or US embrace the FTT. Not going to happen.
__________________
It's only risky when you stop thinking it's risky.
The political class is out of control. We have physicists, ex school teachers and god knows what else writing and playing games with critical policy's in complex fields well out of range of there expertise.
One person facing an election can twist and do untold damage to all the systems needed by the population, for no reason more than they want extra votes to maintain there position.
I really don't like politics and only show an interest when there's something on the cards that will have a direct effect upon me, why don't I like politics?
The Euro crisis pantomime of the last 12 months is a classic example, not only do we have two unskilled unqualified MUPPET'S running around the world like some secret agents on a mission to save the earth, we actually have the rest of the world following there every move and giving them legitimacy, banks are to big to fail, they say, well how about politics?
It would seem that is the biggest to big to fail, as every time it does a good percentage of the populations involved get hammered, entire nations go bankrupt or worse to war,which has bought death to hundreds of millions.
Watching, reading or listening to main stream politics gives me a numb feeling, the sheer importance of what is going on and the absolute inadequacy of those granted the trust to do it actualy makes me siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick.
Quote from tortoise:
The idea is to force the FTT onto UK and US through regulatory subterfuge. The ongoing UK/EU fandango is well-documented. The NYSE situation is far sneakier. Basically, NYSE/Deustche Boerse would be required to levy a transaction fee equivalent to the German FTT levied on each transaction. The proceeds would go to Berlin. Absolutely no US regulatory involvement.
Clever.
Quote from clacy:
There is a ZERO percent chance that the US will allow Germany to impose anything like this on US securities regardless of who owns the NYSE.
Even the Dems wouldn't want to allow that to become a political issue in the 2012 elections and after that it's a moot point, as the Republicans will likely control both houses of congress, and it's a coin flip on the Presidency.
Quote from Tom B:
+1
A foreign owned company based in the US must follow US laws.
__________________
It's only risky when you stop thinking it's risky.
Quote from clacy:
There is a ZERO percent chance that the US will allow Germany to impose anything like this on US securities regardless of who owns the NYSE.
Even the Dems wouldn't want to allow that to become a political issue in the 2012 elections and after that it's a moot point, as the Republicans will likely control both houses of congress, and it's a coin flip on the Presidency.
__________________
It's only risky when you stop thinking it's risky.
Quote from tortoise:
An exchange can impose whatever fees it wishes. There's no law against that.
Last I heard, this merger is near dead.
Quote from tortoise:
Well, you're probably right. But this is Germany's plan, though it may be destined to fail. Just look at the language in Merkel's party's statement--first EZ, then EU, then US. It's conspicuously expansionist, an avowed strategy to meddle in the domestic affairs of its competitors.
Certainly wouldn't be the first time Germany, misreading the enemy, has shot itself in the head. If memory serves, they've launched and lost a couple of world wars that way.
"History does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme." -- Mark Twain
__________________
It's only risky when you stop thinking it's risky.
If the point of the tax is to fund future inevitable bailouts, it's fine. Somebody has to pay for it...
Quote from Random.Capital:
If the point of the tax is to fund future inevitable bailouts, it's fine. Somebody has to pay for it...
Quote from Random.Capital:
If the point of the tax is to fund future inevitable bailouts, it's fine. Somebody has to pay for it...
__________________
It's only risky when you stop thinking it's risky.
Quote from JamesL:
Taxes rarely ever go to their intended purpose
Quote from tortoise:
by the way, "wall street," as you may know, has paid back its bailout money, with interest
Quote from tortoise:
An exchange can impose whatever fees it wishes. There's no law against that.
Quote from Random.Capital:
Dollars are fungible. So are Euros.
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It's only risky when you stop thinking it's risky.
No problem, always happy to help the ET socialists dressed in capitalist clothing.
Quote from Random.Capital:
Dollars are fungible. So are Euros.
Quote from clacy:
The revenue gained from a FTT would not be locked in some "lockbox" for the next financial meltdown.
Unless that transaction tax law passes in US, it matters not that Europeans have passed it, we won't be paying it on our NYSE transactions.....
Quote from Random.Capital:
Of course not.
It would first go to paying down the costs of the previous dozen-odd bailouts, the costs of which have amounted to a subsidy from taxpayers to market participants.
We are a long long way to break even on history, once that bill has been paid, then we can worry about a "lock box" for the future.
If any future german government forces this on the a NYSE/German merged company the regulators in the US can just ban the new NYSE from trading US stocks, remove it's licences etc
And hand the rights to a new US exchange company or an existing exchange like NASDAQ or more likely a smaller existing player to maintain competition.
NYSE will be left with just the iconic building on wall street, do they actually own it or rent it?
Quote from Random.Capital:
Of course not.
It would first go to paying down the costs of the previous dozen-odd bailouts, the costs of which have amounted to a subsidy from taxpayers to market participants.
We are a long long way to break even on history, once that bill has been paid, then we can worry about a "lock box" for the future.
The European Commission’s estimation that a financial transactions tax (known as a Tobin Tax) would raise €37bn (£30.5bn) is “based on overly optimistic assumptions,” Ernst & Young says today.
The Commission has acknowledged that it did not address the impact of lower GDP on revenue collection from other taxes,” states economic adviser Marie Diron. “Even when modelled against the best case scenario this incurs a €39bn loss, making the net impact on overall tax revenues a loss of €2bn.
Using the Commission’s worst case scenario, involving a 1.76 per cent hit to GDP, the tax could result in a net loss to public finances of €116bn.
Thanks Tortoise.
Besides being very active on the FTT thread, I've been commenting in WSJ and FT on every NYSE Deutsche bourse merger article.
I've said it's crazy for NYSE to merge with the German exchange as Germany is hostile to banking, finance and exchanges. Germany will try to use the merger to spread their FTT beyond the euro zone and also over regulate all instruments including derivatives.
This merger is like if Ford wanted to merge with Mercedes just before WWII. The exchanges are too focused on savings, reduced competition, diversification, global reach and bigness. When it comes to Germany and France, run for the rafters, they are falling to socialist forces and have the pitchforks out for banking.
Quote from Robert A. Green:
Thanks Tortoise.
Besides being very active on the FTT thread, I've been commenting in WSJ and FT on every NYSE Deutsche bourse merger article.
I've said it's crazy for NYSE to merge with the German exchange as Germany is hostile to banking, finance and exchanges. Germany will try to use the merger to spread their FTT beyond the euro zone and also over regulate all instruments including derivatives.
This merger is like if Ford wanted to merge with Mercedes just before WWII. The exchanges are too focused on savings, reduced competition, diversification, global reach and bigness. When it comes to Germany and France, run for the rafters, they are falling to socialist forces and have the pitchforks out for banking.
__________________
It's only risky when you stop thinking it's risky.
most of the merkel/sarkozy political moves, as of late, have to do with their internal election aspirations. the "occupy whatever" movements have had a huge political impact in EU and the main countries have been very active outlining a socially conscious agenda in order to gain approval from the masses, especially now that we are approaching election cycle in both of these countries.
most of the rhetoric concerning the ambitions of a wide spread FTT is targeted to win the support from the majority of citizens that consider the banking industry responsible for the economic crisis of last years.
this is just political marketing, their goal is not to pass a law but to win the elections.
in france, they call it the "coup de bluff".
This is simply not going to happen.
Quote from tortoise:
The idea is to force the FTT onto UK and US through regulatory subterfuge. The ongoing UK/EU fandango is well-documented. The NYSE situation is far sneakier. Basically, NYSE/Deustche Boerse would be required to levy a transaction fee equivalent to the German FTT levied on each transaction. The proceeds would go to Berlin. Absolutely no US regulatory involvement.
Clever.
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Swan Noir
The Deutsche Bourse NYSE deal will fall through, and the NYSE would never allow FTT, anyway, so there's no upside for the shareholders in that deal.
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HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?
Bud Fox
Wall Street
Someone correct me if i am wrong but dont all NYSE listed companies (like GE etc) have the freedom to move to NASDAQ anytime they want too?
Quote from Random.Capital:
If the point of the tax is to fund future inevitable bailouts, it's fine. Somebody has to pay for it...
A transaction tax isn't that bad for real investors. In fact, the effect might be negliable.
Quote from failed_trad3r:
A transaction tax isn't that bad for real investors. In fact, the effect might be negliable.
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HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?
Bud Fox
Wall Street
Quote from failed_trad3r:
A transaction tax isn't that bad for real investors. In fact, the effect might be negliable.
Quote from bwolinsky:
Negligible? The effect is to remove liquidity signifcantly, and never see any moves up ever again. Markets don't move if nobody's trading, and that's what you have. Negligible in the sense of transactions cost; a real headwind for anyone in the market.
You're so naieve.
How about we keep these FTT comments on the thread that's already being widely followed instead of starting another?
Please post to:
"1/4% Tax on all stock trades pushed in NY Times today."
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Keep it simple.
Quote from failed_trad3r:
a transaction tax is basically a doubling or tripling of commission. for most, and a milleniumnning of HFT commissions. If you go back to 1980 you had the same situation, and the market did just fine. fear is overrated. sure in 1980 you didnt had daytraders, they will die.
The core of western economy success was free flow of capital. Capital gains are already taxed and for active traders it is taxed as income. FFT is double tax and it taxes FLOW of capital. FFT restricts free economy and changes capital into government budget. Most importantly where there is tax there is an exemption because it is politicians rackett. Guess what is exempted already: trading government bonds. What they want is to suck all the capital from free markets to fund government waste. Then they will exempt all bond dealer banks (the big ones) because they warehouse and distribute government bonds. All the "good things" FFT will be spent for is just cover up and all the propaganda surrounding it seems to work looking at some of the opinions expressed. Always follow the money !
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mk
Quote from gkishot:
Transaction tax is totally not the same as doubling or tripling of commission. This is more equivalent to increasing buy/sell spread, where loss on transaction is percent of position amount.
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HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?
Bud Fox
Wall Street
how about nasdaq stocks purchased via ARCA?
how about nasdaq stocks purchased via NSDQ where the counterpary is ARCA?
Would you people stop talking about the transaction tax here in the USA .....its NOT going to happen !!
the U.S govt (especially the GOP led House in Congress) will kill it instantaneously.
Do you dumbasses really think Merkel has the power to do that?...LOL
IDIOTS !!
Quote from southbeach4me:
Would you people stop talking about the transaction tax here in the USA .....its NOT going to happen !!
the U.S govt (especially the GOP led House in Congress) will kill it instantaneously.
Do you dumbasses really think Merkel has the power to do that?...LOL
IDIOTS !!
Quote from gkishot:
Transaction tax is totally not the same as doubling or tripling of commission. This is more equivalent to increasing buy/sell spread, where loss on transaction is percent of position amount.
Quote from failed_trad3r:
maybe not. if fills today are worser due to HFT frontrunning, bid/ask spread might widen but in reality go smaller. Yes you will literally see it widen, but these spreads can effectual be smaller without HFT frontrunning. this is my hypothesis. HFT disappear, and investor won't notice much difference at all because they stop losing money to frontrunning order flow HFT. That said, daytraders will die.
Quote from failed_trad3r:
maybe not. if fills today are worser due to HFT frontrunning, bid/ask spread might widen but in reality go smaller. Yes you will literally see it widen, but these spreads can effectual be smaller without HFT frontrunning. this is my hypothesis. HFT disappear, and investor won't notice much difference at all because they stop losing money to frontrunning order flow HFT. That said, daytraders will die.
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HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?
Bud Fox
Wall Street
Current tax of 0.1% proposed by France is too high.
It would kill medium-term investing.
For instance our main fund trades 1-2 times a month which is quite low. Still the tax would kill us.
However a smaller tax (0.01% maybe) would help get rid of HFT and make the market more efficient.
Ninna
Quote from nLepwa:
Current tax of 0.1% proposed by France is too high.
It would kill medium-term investing.
For instance our main fund trades 1-2 times a month which is quite low. Still the tax would kill us.
However a smaller tax (0.01% maybe) would help get rid of HFT and make the market more efficient.
Ninna
__________________
HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?
Bud Fox
Wall Street
Quote from nLepwa:
Current tax of 0.1% proposed by France is too high.
It would kill medium-term investing.
For instance our main fund trades 1-2 times a month which is quite low. Still the tax would kill us.
However a smaller tax (0.01% maybe) would help get rid of HFT and make the market more efficient.
Ninna
__________________
It's only risky when you stop thinking it's risky.
Quote from bwolinsky:
A white paper I read for my Senior Internship showed conclusively that decimalization reduced transactions costs significantly by decreasing spreads. You cannot expect by adding taxes as inefficient as FTT that that will decrease volatility, or provide a more "efficient" market because if you remove liquidity you're guaranteed a horrible outcome, including millions of lost jobs, debt, and depression, not just stagnation.
All of that is guaranteed by economics as well as all the research that's been done on the topic. Your position is moronic and naieve.
Quote from failed_trad3r:
I read a post by Zerohedge that decimalization enabled bigger and better frontrunning than ever before. I.E. decimalization led to an adjustment of the VWAP that is used to buy stock. The VWAP goes higher, even though it should have been lower. So the liquidity you see is FAKE. (ex. flash crash).
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