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Posted by Bear Trader on 12-16-11 07:23 PM:

Day traders pls quit while you can

I cant see any day trader making and end of the year profit for the next 3 years. It is going to be brutal quit day trading, HFT and the unstable markets is going to kill you all. There are going to be more chops than a Chefs knife. More swings and bounces than a Tennis match. Pls dont say I did not warn you. The only people who are going to make money are the swing and long term traders. Day trading is dead!!

Posted by emg on 12-16-11 07:26 PM:

More than 90% of small traders lose! They just lose!

__________________
More Than 90% of Small Traders Lose. THEY JUST LOSE!!!!!

Posted by tortoise on 12-16-11 07:26 PM:

Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from Bear Trader:

I cant see any day trader making and end of the year profit for the next 3 years. It is going to be brutal quit day trading, HFT and the unstable markets is going to kill you all. There are going to be more chops than a Chefs knife. More swings and bounces than a Tennis match. Pls dont say I did not warn you. The only people who are going to make money are the swing and long term traders. Day trading is dead!!

actually, i think swing traders are dead. this is daytrading heaven

Posted by intradaybill on 12-16-11 07:27 PM:

Daytrading is now position trading. It has been replaced by HFT. Those daytraders who could afford it became HF traders. There is money to be made in intraday position trading.

Don't say I did not warn you

Posted by seneca_roman on 12-16-11 07:39 PM:

The sky will fall too

__________________
s

Posted by Crispy on 12-16-11 07:48 PM:

Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from tortoise:

actually, i think swing traders are dead. this is daytrading heaven

Posted by Swan Noir on 12-16-11 07:52 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Solid traders will do well in their chosen time frame and, just like always, weak traders will limp long until they get taken out almost instantly when they finally go on tilt.

Quote from Crispy:

+1

__________________
Swan Noir

Posted by Cdntrader on 12-16-11 07:55 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from Swan Noir:

Solid traders will do well in their chosen time frame and, just like always, weak traders will limp long until they get taken out almost instantly when they finally go on tilt.

Posted by Zr1Trader on 12-16-11 08:02 PM:

The bots are always a favorite scapegoat

Posted by beachhouse on 12-16-11 08:07 PM:

I don't do day trading, I trade at night, so I am ok.

thanks for the warning though, I will make sure my trading starts when it gets dark. At this time of the year, it's about 5 pm.

Posted by asap on 12-16-11 08:36 PM:

Quote from emg:

More than 90% of small traders lose! They just lose!

the money they lose is someone else's gain. someone just wins !

Posted by NoDoji on 12-16-11 08:51 PM:

Quote from Zr1Trader:

The bots are always a favorite scapegoat

The bots (programmed trading) make day trading predictable and profitable if you take the time necessary to learn to recognize the price footprints that trigger them.

Posted by MrPaul on 12-16-11 09:37 PM:

"Honey, I've decided to give it all up"

"Why?!"

"Because this guy on the internet said I should"

Posted by traderrn on 12-16-11 09:48 PM:

Quote from beachhouse:

I don't do day trading, I trade at night, so I am ok.

thanks for the warning though, I will make sure my trading starts when it gets dark. At this time of the year, it's about 5 pm.

Posted by Handle123 on 12-16-11 09:55 PM:

Since 1984 I have heard from hundreds how day trading has no money in it. Then Pc's arrive, and hundreds say "They" will have faster and bigger computers, no money in day trading. Then the Internet arrives, and hundreds say "They" will have faster cables, no money in day trading. Then HFT arrives and again, hundreds say "They" will have faster and bigger computers, no money in day trading.

The S&P 500 Index still trades same little wiggles, same patterns, same time patterns it did in 1984 except bigger ranges. Big deal. My educated has increased hundred fold, ya just got to learn how to trade chop, learn what the Price Action is saying, find reliable patterns, understand that ES support/resistance looks different than another Index. Each market has it's own personality.

But I do agree, easier money trading long term, less commissions, less watching screens, much better reward to risk.

But even long term traders/investors lose when they are uneducated.

Posted by trader198 on 12-16-11 09:59 PM:

Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

not exactly.

whether day trading or swing trading, the princpincls are the same.
in day trading, 99.99% needs pure technical guidance, you do not need know fundamentals. in swing trading, fundamentals can be applied, but to execute the idea, still the technicals.

actually swing trading is harder than day trading. in swing trading, there is overnight develpoment, like big gap down/up, hard to manage risk based on technicals. so most 99.99% investors lost. in order to manage overnight undefined risk, you need option, but 99.99% swing traders are trading naked (without any protection), they even do not know they are nakedly trading, that is the sad part.

when you look to day traders, they can easily use pure technical analysis to guide the trades and manage the risk, very simple, a hard stop loss or mental stop.
so serious day traders often end up profit year after profit year, they thrive and prosper.

of course, those blotters are not day traders. you can not count them in.

Quote from Bear Trader:

I cant see any day trader making and end of the year profit for the next 3 years. It is going to be brutal quit day trading, HFT and the unstable markets is going to kill you all. There are going to be more chops than a Chefs knife. More swings and bounces than a Tennis match. Pls dont say I did not warn you. The only people who are going to make money are the swing and long term traders. Day trading is dead!!

Posted by TraderBoy23 on 12-16-11 10:07 PM:

Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from Bear Trader:

I cant see any day trader making and end of the year profit for the next 3 years. It is going to be brutal quit day trading, HFT and the unstable markets is going to kill you all. There are going to be more chops than a Chefs knife. More swings and bounces than a Tennis match. Pls dont say I did not warn you. The only people who are going to make money are the swing and long term traders. Day trading is dead!!

What are you talking about?? 100+ point swings each day are great for day traders. Up or down we don't care money to be made on either side. Id say good luck to the investors just starting up. They'll be the ones that really are struggling in the times to come.

Posted by stock777 on 12-16-11 10:54 PM:

plenty $ 2 b made.

but its a lot more work than it used to b

i like easy knot hard

bots designed to fuk with your head

dont like.

much happens 1 second, not for humans

bot vs bot

sux

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Posted by dealmaker on 12-16-11 11:43 PM:

Bear Trader

Registered: Aug 2011
Posts: 14

12-16-11 11:23 AM

I cant see any day trader making and end of the year profit for the next 3 years. It is going to be brutal quit day trading, HFT and the unstable markets is going to kill you all. There are going to be more chops than a Chefs knife. More swings and bounces than a Tennis match. Pls dont say I did not warn you. The only people who are going to make money are the swing and long term traders. Day trading is dead!!

The environment you have described is exactly what a trader needs to make money i.e. swings and bounces, unstable market etc.. Its the investors who need stable markets, not traders.

Posted by tycoonman on 12-16-11 11:45 PM:

Quote from dealmaker:

Bear Trader

Registered: Aug 2011
Posts: 14

12-16-11 11:23 AM

I cant see any day trader making and end of the year profit for the next 3 years. It is going to be brutal quit day trading, HFT and the unstable markets is going to kill you all. There are going to be more chops than a Chefs knife. More swings and bounces than a Tennis match. Pls dont say I did not warn you. The only people who are going to make money are the swing and long term traders. Day trading is dead!!

The environment you have described is exactly what a trader needs to make money i.e. swings and bounces, unstable market etc.. Its the investors who need stable markets, not traders.

+1

volatility = traders friend

and yes, people like OP should not be trading.

Posted by bwolinsky on 12-17-11 01:27 AM:

Quote from emg:

More than 90% of small traders lose! They just lose!

This is about the 17th thread I've seen you posit that statement this year.

Do you have anything else on standby when the clueless arrive to tell you that 90% lose.? I don't think it's small traders, but if the commission at Fidelity of 7.95 or commission at TD Ameritrade of 8.95 aren't deterrents you would assume they have done some kind of analytical research before they start trading.

So it could just be inexperience, not whether you're a small trader. What do you classify as a small trader? $10,000? $100,000? Less than 250k?

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HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

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Wall Street

Posted by SK0 on 12-17-11 01:45 AM:

Hershey

Sounds like the world is ending soon.

As long as a market has sufficient trading volume and spread is negligible, daytrading it is never a problem. Please I am not saying one would profit in case you misread my words wrongly.

In fact, I see the markets in general are running into great uncertainties in coming years. So the market volatility is going to be unusually high. That is good news for daytraders in general.

I am prepared. JH, thank you.

Posted by Businessman on 12-17-11 01:56 AM:

Make hay while the sun shines. Volatility is the friend of the day trader.. i predict 2012 is going to be another volatile year

Posted by Chuck Rost on 12-17-11 01:57 AM:

Quote from NoDoji:

The bots (programmed trading) make day trading predictable and profitable if you take the time necessary to learn to recognize the price footprints that trigger them.

100% agree.

Posted by jnbadger on 12-17-11 02:10 AM:

Quote from bwolinsky:

This is about the 17th thread I've seen you posit that statement this year.

Do you have anything else on standby when the clueless arrive to tell you that 90% lose.? I don't think it's small traders, but if the commission at Fidelity of 7.95 or commission at TD Ameritrade of 8.95 aren't deterrents you would assume they have done some kind of analytical research before they start trading.

So it could just be inexperience, not whether you're a small trader. What do you classify as a small trader? $10,000? $100,000? Less than 250k?

More like the 100th.

emg has said repeatedly that you need 100k in your account PER /ES CONTRACT you plan to trade.

Barron once even called him a jackass and told him to STFU. To no avail, evidently.

Posted by hitnrun on 12-17-11 02:49 AM:

I guess you are in the 90% group
That seems to be your favorite statement
most traders are adults & know the risk involved

Quote from emg:

More than 90% of small traders lose! They just lose!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by Bob111 on 12-17-11 03:06 AM:

But I do agree, easier money trading long term, less commissions, less watching screens, much better reward to risk.

how so? been profitable daytrader for a decade or so i'm yet to see STABLE, profitable swing/long term trader (whatever that means) who was able to make a living off his trading.
i would appreciate a statement\screen shoot...something like this smooth from long term trader-

long term traders-feel free to post your statements.

PS: Then why YOU daytrade,if long term is so easy or involve much less risk?
(how it can possibly be less risky,if you trying to make a living off it? daytrader makes a lot of little trades(forget about scalping,that's some suicidal hobby\mastrubation),while imo long term require much larger bet(and\or risk) to get same results). i'm wrong or maybe missing something?

Thank you!

here is one fine example-
http://bigcharts.marketwatch.com/qu...2&show=&time=12

good luck with long term here

Posted by Bear Trader on 12-17-11 08:02 AM:

Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from tortoise:

actually, i think swing traders are dead. this is daytrading heaven

Lol! No wonder I have made 6 - 7 figures year in year out swing trading

How many day traders make $400k profit on a single trade? Exactly!

What we are see are GREAT 2 - 5 day swings. Only newbies aka day traders cant see this and quit too early on a winning trade that if held would have made them 20x what they made. They win big one day and think they are God and then lose it back the next day. Most traders dont have the mental discipline to be successful. They are being killed just look at the the journals.

Posted by syswizard on 12-17-11 08:16 AM:

Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from tortoise:

actually, i think swing traders are dead. this is daytrading heaven

Exactly...making the originator a dufus.
Back in 2004, now that was a horrible, trendless market which was profitless for day traders.

__________________
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Posted by diemtrade77 on 12-17-11 10:47 AM:

Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from Bear Trader:

I cant see any day trader making and end of the year profit for the next 3 years. It is going to be brutal quit day trading, HFT and the unstable markets is going to kill you all. There are going to be more chops than a Chefs knife. More swings and bounces than a Tennis match. Pls dont say I did not warn you. The only people who are going to make money are the swing and long term traders. Day trading is dead!!

I hear and see what you're saying. I make a daily profit by buying Volitity $TVIX when we have peace and security. Then selling them the next day when #EUZONE boobs are dropped on us.

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Posted by TILT2 on 12-17-11 12:21 PM:

Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from Bear Trader:

I cant see any day trader making and end of the year profit for the next 3 years. It is going to be brutal quit day trading, HFT and the unstable markets is going to kill you all. There are going to be more chops than a Chefs knife. More swings and bounces than a Tennis match. Pls dont say I did not warn you. The only people who are going to make money are the swing and long term traders. Day trading is dead!!

I think maybe you should say the retailed traders are gonna be extinct as the time goes instead.

Posted by RewriteQuran on 12-17-11 01:48 PM:

Trading = Zero sum
Investing != Zero sum

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Posted by etile on 12-17-11 02:01 PM:

Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from trader198:

not exactly.

whether day trading or swing trading, the princpincls are the same.
in day trading, 99.99% needs pure technical guidance, you do not need know fundamentals. in swing trading, fundamentals can be applied, but to execute the idea, still the technicals.

actually swing trading is harder than day trading. in swing trading, there is overnight develpoment, like big gap down/up, hard to manage risk based on technicals. so most 99.99% investors lost. in order to manage overnight undefined risk, you need option, but 99.99% swing traders are trading naked (without any protection), they even do not know they are nakedly trading, that is the sad part.

when you look to day traders, they can easily use pure technical analysis to guide the trades and manage the risk, very simple, a hard stop loss or mental stop.
so serious day traders often end up profit year after profit year, they thrive and prosper.

of course, those blotters are not day traders. you can not count them in.

lmao.

Posted by Bob111 on 12-17-11 02:45 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from Bear Trader:

Lol! No wonder I have made 6 - 7 figures year in year out swing trading

How many day traders make $400k profit on a single trade? Exactly!

What we are see are GREAT 2 - 5 day swings. Only newbies aka day traders cant see this and quit too early on a winning trade that if held would have made them 20x what they made. They win big one day and think they are God and then lose it back the next day. Most traders dont have the mental discipline to be successful. They are being killed just look at the the journals.

then show me the money.everybody making easy millions here,but i never seen any proof of it..you can see my example above(old one,made it for same reason-to show that it is possible to make stable money daytrading).i'm not saying that it's impossible, and i have no problem saying that i was unable to come up with stable,profitable automatic(not discretionary,with some vague defined rules,guts feelings etc) swing\long term system. and one of the reasons imo is the fact that the longer time frame-the more variables are involved.

Posted by NoDoji on 12-17-11 03:29 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from Bear Trader:

Lol! No wonder I have made 6 - 7 figures year in year out swing trading

How many day traders make $400k profit on a single trade? Exactly!

What we are see are GREAT 2 - 5 day swings. Only newbies aka day traders cant see this and quit too early on a winning trade that if held would have made them 20x what they made. They win big one day and think they are God and then lose it back the next day. Most traders dont have the mental discipline to be successful. They are being killed just look at the the journals.

What size account did you trade to make $400K on a single swing trade over a few days? What was the instrument traded and the size of the trade? Was it a trade (stock trade) where you were at any risk of losing just as big or bigger in the event of a gap against you?

If you don't have the mental discipline to be successful as a day trader, how will you magically have the mental discipline to be a swing trader?

A day trader who wins big one day and loses it the next shouldn't even be mentioned for comparison purposes because that person is trading without a researched plan. What kind of day trading plan is based on a strategy that's no better than betting red or black on a roulette wheel? You'll lose just as easily swing trading that way.

How many swing traders can make a $400K annual income trading a couple lots of an instrument with a low to mid size 5-figure account?

Posted by intradaybill on 12-17-11 03:57 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from NoDoji:

If you don't have the mental discipline to be successful as a day trader, how will you magically have the mental discipline to be a swing trader?

I do not agree with this. Daytrading and swing trading are too different animals. I know swing traders who trade off quotes from newspapers using some esoteric method they have developed over the years. Of course older people.

Some people have failed as day traders and made it big time as position traders or trend followers.

I guess the opposite is true. It depends what you are made for. But one does not also exclude the other.

Posted by etile on 12-17-11 04:24 PM:

I trade 2 time frames. swing and position. I use the two to hedge out volatility of my equity, not that it has helped me much in the last 6 months, but c'est la vie.

I look for my position trades to be my homeruns and my swing trades to be my singles and doubles. I don't have the ability to churn out shares and grind money out like daytraders.

The only proposition I hate about daytrading is that you never ever let a good trade ride. When I'm on a good trade I always aim to press the shit out of it. Those feasting I use to tithe me over until the next meal comes.

I look forward to the day when I'm just collecting dividends.

Posted by JJacksET4 on 12-17-11 04:44 PM:

I just wanted to point out something here. If you watch TV or whatever, everyone is screaming about how volatile this market is and there are pundits on both sides saying the market will tank or will soar.

Despite some large moves in between these days, lets look at some SPY values on given dates recently:

SPY close
Sept 16 - 121.52
Oct 17 - 120.23 (had been 121.99 open)
Nov 17 - 122.11 (had been 121.23 low)
Dec 16 - 121.59

That is remarkable stable prices for each month considering the moves that can go on in between. While these positions might have been scary, it would have been great for option sellers of the 122 range straddles, etc.

JJacksET4

Posted by Zr1Trader on 12-17-11 04:46 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from Bear Trader:

Only newbies aka day traders cant see this and quit too early on a winning trade that if held would have made them 20x what they made. They win big one day and think they are God and then lose it back the next day. Most traders dont have the mental discipline to be successful. They are being killed just look at the the journals.

The CL offered 1600+ cents one day this week and averages 600-800 cents offered on a regular basis . The intraday swings add up to more than the daily range of course.

The 2-3 day swings you refer to are catching the meat of the intramonth moves. So your aim is the same as mine except you wait longer in return for paying less comish. I don't wait as long for my moves but in return pay more commish .

Commish and slippage aren't a prob if you don't over trade in relation to the amount of swings presented on avg per day. Take 10%+ from the days intraday moves and you are on your way. . Buy up moves sell down moves.

The environment the past few months has been great for trading intraday regardless if a bot, paul, or harry took the otherside of my trade.

Posted by d08 on 12-17-11 04:51 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from Bear Trader:

How many day traders make $400k profit on a single trade? Exactly!

Well, you are right about that.
Although I'd rather make $40k profit per trade with 20 trades and keeping the exposure at the same level.
I guess you are competing for "most profitable single trade" instead of "most dollar profit with the lowest risk", those stupid day traders

Posted by Swan Noir on 12-17-11 05:15 PM:

Why does it seem so hard for some traders to acknowledge that there is money to be made in any and all time frames. On any given day, week or month one time frame will trump others but over the span of time the better traders will profit as the weaker traders will suffer.

It has always been thus and shall always be thus.

__________________
Swan Noir

Posted by Mvector on 12-17-11 05:33 PM:

Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from tortoise:

actually, i think swing traders are dead. this is daytrading heaven

+1

CL, ES, DAX, SI, GC, have never been better - some of the best intraday trading I have seen.

Posted by ronblack on 12-17-11 05:34 PM:

There is money to be made in all timeframe. Daytrading is more demanding but you sleep better. Swing trading takes away some of the peace of mind during sleep.

Posted by SteveH on 12-17-11 06:09 PM:

The few traders I know of who can make single-trade killings every so often are doing so with options (simple buy side, no hedging) on something like the QQQ (60/40 tax split, just like regulated futures contracts, btw). When they expect a big move is coming up, they'll load up with like 300-700 contracts with an avg cost no greater than $1 per option ($100, of course). So that's roughly a 30K-70K position where the expectation is a 3x-5x gain.

One of the guys I follow in a forum made 700K on QQQ options positions in the flash crash incident in Spring 2010. He regularly makes 50K to 100K on the bigger QQQ option swing trades where he has around 20K-30K at risk.

Ironically, they are scared to death of the futures markets because it's a different mindset to them (unlimited losses due to marging reqs. vs. the option bet itself being the ultimate stop-loss upfront).

But, the mindset they're really good at is with compounding their wins. When the big win comes along, they'll feed a greater initial sum into the opposing bet from the first. It's "house money" at that point so they can take the emotional hits when they fail.

Extraordinary thing to watch unfold. If you're at that level of the game, a QQQ or SPY option swing trader, it probably trumps day trading in the futures market. You get the 60/40 tax benefit, more leverage possible with less cash involved and you have a limited loss. [The time decay factor in options is not as much of an issue as you would think. They're good enough to peg a move within 1-3 days.]

I mean, can you imagine being emotionally unfazed by 10K-30K 1 trade option losses because you're good enough to produce far many more 20K to 100K wins and you also get about 2-3 huge wins per year (200K-500K)?

Posted by ronblack on 12-17-11 06:15 PM:

Long options requires impecable timing or you lose everything. Not true with futures. There you only lose what you risk. Options can lose 50 or even 90% of value in a few hours and this happens regularly. This is gambling, not trading.

Posted by NoDoji on 12-17-11 08:59 PM:

Quote from ronblack:

Long options requires impecable timing or you lose everything. Not true with futures. There you only lose what you risk. Options can lose 50 or even 90% of value in a few hours and this happens regularly. This is gambling, not trading.

It's not gambling if the full loss on the option position is the amount you're willing to risk. As a buyer, you can't lose more than your premium + commissions.

On the other hand, with a futures position you may think you only lose what you risk (your stop loss level) but if you're holding a large position overnight and there's a black swan event during a thin market, your loss may end up far greater than what you thought your max risk was. I've seen ES gap 10 points on nothing more than a economic news release; imagine where your stop order might actually fill if a gap in a thin market is 30 or 40 points.

Posted by JJacksET4 on 12-17-11 09:01 PM:

Quote from ronblack:

Long options requires impecable timing or you lose everything. Not true with futures. There you only lose what you risk. Options can lose 50 or even 90% of value in a few hours and this happens regularly. This is gambling, not trading.

Ron, I'm not very familiar with futures, but with long options you also "only lose what you risk". It is only short options that can cause larger losses. Also, as far as timing goes, options have different expirations and it is very rare for longer term expirations to lose that much value that quickly.

JJacksET4

Posted by JJacksET4 on 12-17-11 09:04 PM:

Quote from NoDoji:

It's not gambling if the full loss on the option position is the amount you're willing to risk. As a buyer, you can't lose more than your premium + commissions.

On the other hand, with a futures position you may think you only lose what you risk (your stop loss level) but if you're holding a large position overnight and there's a black swan event during a thin market, your loss may end up far greater than what you thought your max risk was. I've seen ES gap 10 points on nothing more than a economic news release; imagine where your stop order might actually fill if a gap in a thin market is 30 or 40 points.

Thanks for that post NoDoji! I think great minds think alike! I don't know where people talk about options like they know how they work and then get the basics of them wrong. Options are risky when people are going to buy say $10,000 of a stock, but instead put $10,000 into a short-term call. That is way, way, way over leveraged.

Also BTW if option values always expired that quickly, sellers would make easy money and laugh all the way to the bank!

JJacksET4

Posted by NoDoji on 12-17-11 09:04 PM:

Quote from etile:

The only proposition I hate about daytrading is that you never ever let a good trade ride.

You can definitely let a good trade ride while day trading and you can press the pedal to the metal. SteveH trades this way and explains that you can start with low initial risk and leverage your gains to ride a well-defined trending move intraday:

Quote from SteveH:

What you never emotionally want to do in the markets works best: ADD in strong trends. On the CL, on a DAY TRADE with a 5 min chart, using only 1 contract positions where your highest initial capital risk of loss is $150-$200, you can accumulate a 4-10 contract position spanning from 1 to 2.5 pts which can yield $2500 - $10,000 (within 30 mins to 3 hours exposure). You get 1-3 opportunities per day for these kinds of rewards. They're obvious moves with no more than a 20 ema to give you a point of reference.

Good luck.

Posted by Peternam on 12-17-11 11:37 PM:

Quote from SteveH:

The few traders I know of who can make single-trade killings every so often are doing so with options (simple buy side, no hedging) on something like the QQQ (60/40 tax split, just like regulated futures contracts, btw). When they expect a big move is coming up, they'll load up with like 300-700 contracts with an avg cost no greater than $1 per option ($100, of course). So that's roughly a 30K-70K position where the expectation is a 3x-5x gain.

One of the guys I follow in a forum made 700K on QQQ options positions in the flash crash incident in Spring 2010. He regularly makes 50K to 100K on the bigger QQQ option swing trades where he has around 20K-30K at risk.

Ironically, they are scared to death of the futures markets because it's a different mindset to them (unlimited losses due to marging reqs. vs. the option bet itself being the ultimate stop-loss upfront).

But, the mindset they're really good at is with compounding their wins. When the big win comes along, they'll feed a greater initial sum into the opposing bet from the first. It's "house money" at that point so they can take the emotional hits when they fail.

Extraordinary thing to watch unfold. If you're at that level of the game, a QQQ or SPY option swing trader, it probably trumps day trading in the futures market. You get the 60/40 tax benefit, more leverage possible with less cash involved and you have a limited loss. [The time decay factor in options is not as much of an issue as you would think. They're good enough to peg a move within 1-3 days.]

I mean, can you imagine being emotionally unfazed by 10K-30K 1 trade option losses because you're good enough to produce far many more 20K to 100K wins and you also get about 2-3 huge wins per year (200K-500K)?

What guy at what forum ?

Posted by syswizard on 12-18-11 12:02 AM:

Successful options trading requires just impeccable timing. Otherwise (on long positions), your position just melts away into nothingness. That's why it usually best to be on the short side.

__________________
"Success in the markets runs counter to everything we have been taught...and if you want a friend on Wall Street, get a dog"

Posted by rallymode on 12-18-11 12:41 AM:

Quote from SteveH:

But, the mindset they're really good at is with compounding their wins. When the big win comes along, they'll feed a greater initial sum into the opposing bet from the first. It's "house money" at that point so they can take the emotional hits when they fail.

I can't imagine any successful trader(over 7 or 8 digits) ever considering profits as house money. Sounds more like something Cramer would pitch to the masses.

Posted by Swan Noir on 12-18-11 12:55 AM:

House money is what the house has won. The money you are up has a very descriptive name - your money. If you have a hard time keeping track of that concept you are at a serious disadvantage.

Quote from rallymode:

I can't imagine any successful trader(over 7 or 8 digits) ever considering profits as house money. Sounds more like something Cramer would pitch to the masses.

__________________
Swan Noir

Posted by stock777 on 12-18-11 02:06 AM:

Quote from Swan Noir:

House money is what the house has won. The money you are up has a very descriptive name - your money. If you have a hard time keeping track of that concept you are at a serious disadvantage.

whenever I see someone reference 'house money' or the 'tracks money' I know I'm dealing with the clueless.

__________________
"Those that know ain't saying, and those saying don't know." - E. A. Neumann

A bear since 1958 and proud of it.

Posted by Lucrum on 12-18-11 02:38 AM:

Quote from emg:

More than 90% of small traders lose! They just lose!

This reminds me of a sale I made on Ebay. It was a hybrid "In the waist band/out of the waist band" holster. Because the stupid buffoon couldn't figure out how to unsnap the belt loop holders and reconfigure them he accuses me of selling him something other than what was advertised.

IOW because he can't do it nobody can.

Posted by masterm1ne on 12-18-11 04:09 AM:

Quote from emg:

More than 90% of small traders lose! They just lose!

emg's post count is probably actually 4, if you subtract all the posts where he spams this line, preceded by more glass half empty thoughts.

Posted by JunkbondS on 12-18-11 04:09 PM:

Quote from NoDoji:

The bots (programmed trading) make day trading predictable and profitable if you take the time necessary to learn to recognize the price footprints that trigger them.

You must be very new or one of those folks who never change ( the TA cult from 1990s) to honestly believe bots never chnge thus leave predictable "footprints". bots are built to evolve and constantly change thus the effectiveness.

Please stop leading others down th primrose path with ignorance.

Day trading is not dead but your version of it is long gone.

Traders, be ver cautious of those who speak from authority but don't understand he most basic market premises. There's a psychological or monetary motivation to these types of misleading "fact" statements.

Posted by dealmaker on 12-18-11 06:36 PM:

emg

Registered: Feb 2010
Posts: 2964

12-16-11 11:26 AM

More than 90% of small traders lose! They just lose!

Tell us something we do not know!

Posted by Lights on 12-18-11 07:02 PM:

Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

I agree. This year was my best daytrading year since 2008.

Quote from tortoise:

actually, i think swing traders are dead. this is daytrading heaven

Posted by NoDoji on 12-18-11 07:30 PM:

Quote from JunkbondS:

You must be very new or one of those folks who never change ( the TA cult from 1990s) to honestly believe bots never chnge thus leave predictable "footprints". bots are built to evolve and constantly change thus the effectiveness.

Please stop leading others down th primrose path with ignorance.

Day trading is not dead but your version of it is long gone.

You are correct, I am quite new, having never traded before 2008.

However, in the 2 years since I learned to trade price action, certain price patterns have resulted in minimum price moves with such a high rate of positive expectancy that I believe programmed trading has to be responsible. Institutional traders and investors move price, not small retail traders, and these large players tend to utilize programs that trigger buying and selling.

If you have a better explanation of it, please share.

My mentor's been trading for a couple decades and he's provided me with ample charts showing the same price action setups I use to trade. So these patterns appear to have been working much longer than just the brief time I've been trading this way.

FYI, I do not care one bit if my version of day trading is long gone because it has produced an unbroken run of profitable days as long as I've been aware of it.

Just as I don't care whether my mentor has ever traded, or whether Al Brooks has ever traded, or whether Mark Douglas has ever traded, or whether Jack Hershey lives with a llama and has a tax lien against him. Every one of these folks and the "cults" they promote were key influences in my current profitable understanding of price action.

Posted by NY_HOOD on 12-19-11 02:04 AM:

I love the " this year was my best trading year ever" talk..
How about your average for the past 5 years. You could of made more money working at Walmart opposed to chasing some gambling addiction. Day trading is gambling..
Oh yeah, I forgot, had you only followed your discipline, you would not of taken that big loss.
How bout this, you just need to adjust your trading style because the market is always changing..
This is my favorite.. " it's not an addiction, it's a passion..I just love the market and I just know I can make it".
" gambling is different, I am being methodical and using charts" ..
" I view trading as a business and take the emotion out of it" yeah right..,,, tell me some more bs.

Posted by Fah Q on 12-19-11 02:22 AM:

Aren't you a construction worker??

Quote from NY_HOOD:

I love the " this year was my best trading year ever" talk..
How about your average for the past 5 years. You could of made more money working at Walmart opposed to chasing some gambling addiction. Day trading is gambling..
Oh yeah, I forgot, had you only followed your discipline, you would not of taken that big loss.
How bout this, you just need to adjust your trading style because the market is always changing..
This is my favorite.. " it's not an addiction, it's a passion..I just love the market and I just know I can make it".
" gambling is different, I am being methodical and using charts" ..
" I view trading as a business and take the emotion out of it" yeah right..,,, tell me some more bs.

Posted by SimpleTrades on 12-19-11 02:43 AM:

Quote from NY_HOOD:

I love the " this year was my best trading year ever" talk..
How about your average for the past 5 years. You could of made more money working at Walmart opposed to chasing some gambling addiction. Day trading is gambling..
Oh yeah, I forgot, had you only followed your discipline, you would not of taken that big loss.
How bout this, you just need to adjust your trading style because the market is always changing..
This is my favorite.. " it's not an addiction, it's a passion..I just love the market and I just know I can make it".
" gambling is different, I am being methodical and using charts" ..
" I view trading as a business and take the emotion out of it" yeah right..,,, tell me some more bs.

Poor Hood. Failed trader, eh? Can I remind you about something you said 5 years ago?

Quote from NY_HOOD:

with trading,if a trade is going the wrong way i jump out with very minimal damage. poker,you can fold but your money is gone.i think trading is much more predictable, i trade catalysts so i usually have a good feel as to which way the momentum is.

So what happened Hood?

Posted by Bob111 on 12-19-11 02:47 AM:

i can sing 100 times better than little wayne...probably you too..i'm failed singer..singing is BS!!!! 99% of singers just lose!

Posted by SimpleTrades on 12-19-11 02:54 AM:

Quote from Bob111:

i can sing 100 times better than little wayne...probably you too..i'm failed singer..singing is BS!!!! 99% of singers just lose!

Maybe, but anybody who sais I can't do it so therefore it must be gambling is just a loser in my opinion. He gave up, and used the gambling argument to rationalize his defficiencies.

Posted by RCG Trader on 12-19-11 02:57 AM:

Quote from bhardy307:

Poor Hood. Failed trader, eh? Can I remind you about something you said 5 years ago?

So what happened Hood?

I remember that too, he was the starter of the ADX thread here a few years ago.

Something bad happened, so I would ask restraint. Please do not pile on.

Posted by SimpleTrades on 12-19-11 02:58 AM:

Quote from RCG Trader:

Please do not pile on.

Understood. I'll back off. Sorry.

Trouble is however, that these same individuals tend to go on the attack as we new traders struggle through the process.

Posted by RCG Trader on 12-19-11 03:11 AM:

Quote from bhardy307:

Understood. I'll back off. Sorry.

Trouble is however, that these same individuals tend to go on the attack as we new traders struggle through the process.

Hood has never piled on. I have been here a long time and he has never said a cross word to anyone.

As a new trader, I, an old trader will give you some direction.

Start at fx.

Open an account with oanda.

Fund it with whatever you are comfortable with losing.

Learn price action.

Trade accordingly.

I do not answer pm's regularly. I see that NoDoji is a motivated teacher, so you can try her.

Don't waste a lot of time on indicators. A lot of newbies do that. I did.

Try to learn what price is telling you. Then find reference points to attach that to so you have a map. ACD is good for that.

Hope this helps.

Posted by SimpleTrades on 12-19-11 03:16 AM:

Quote from RCG Trader:

Hood has never piled on. I have been here a long time and he has never said a cross word to anyone.

As a new trader, I, an old trader will give you some direction.

Start at fx.

Open an account with oanda.

Fund it with whatever you are comfortable with losing.

Learn price action.

Trade accordingly.

I do not answer pm's regularly. I see that NoDoji is a motivated teacher, so you can try her.

Don't waste a lot of time on indicators. A lot of newbies do that. I did.

Try to learn what price is telling you. Then find reference points to attach that to so you have a map. ACD is good for that.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the tips. I have been suspicious of indicators for some time now. I no longer use them for my entries and exits. Trying to learn price action. Struggling.

Working with FXCM right now. Happy with them as a starting point.

Posted by Bob111 on 12-19-11 04:12 AM:

start at fx..yep...why fx? go brave and start with options..nah..start with options on futures!

---Fund it with whatever you are comfortable with losing.---

do it once and lose it all..stop..learn(or think\pretend that you learn something)then lose it all again..then over and over again!

s**t..this place is full of knowledge! and everyone making 400K a day every day!

Posted by SimpleTrades on 12-19-11 04:33 AM:

Quote from Bob111:

start at fx..yep...why fx? go brave and start with options..nah..start with options on futures!

---Fund it with whatever you are comfortable with losing.---

do it once and lose it all..stop..learn(or think\pretend that you learn something)then lose it all again..then over and over again!

s**t..this place is full of knowledge! and everyone making 400K a day every day!

There is a very good reason for starting with FX. You get the benefit of playing with small amounts of money without having to risk thousands. For $50 you can start trading micro lots, and I assure you, this is far more beneficial that trading a sim account.

Posted by Bob111 on 12-19-11 04:44 AM:

one can apply same rationale for my recommendation above about options. but i'm just kidding and looks like you are not..imo-it's a really BAD to advise ANYTHING in this business in first place. specially to the people you don't know. their risk tolerance.,financial situation.. etc..#2-imo it 's a bad idea\advise to start with ANY highly leveraged instrument.#3 it's a bad idea to advise anything that involves ridiculous amount of variables. and that's exactly what you are suggesting to noob...

micro lots doesn't mean micro bets and that's exactly why 90%(i would say 99% on fx trading) lose..cause they are under capitalized.
and they threat this $50 bet exactly as it is.. a BET. like in casino. good luck with this approach

Posted by SimpleTrades on 12-19-11 04:52 AM:

Quote from Bob111:

one can apply same rationale for my recommendation above about options. but i'm just kidding and looks like you are not..imo-it's a really BAD to advise ANYTHING in this business in first place. specially to the people you don't know. their risk tolerance.,financial situation.. etc..#2-imo it 's a bad idea\advise to start with ANY highly leveraged instrument.#3 it's a bad idea to advise anything that involves ridiculous amount of variables. and that's exactly what you are suggesting to noob...

Joking or not, I will make the point that as a relatively new trader, I don't give a damn about the signficance of leverage! I care only about the impact of a unit of change in the price. When I trade an ounce of gold with a deposit of $2, I know that each dollar change in the price of gold is a dollar change in my equity. This is all that matters to me. The fact that I have just leveraged a $50 account 1590/50 times is irrelevant.

Trouble is, most new traders don't get this and instead try to buy $50/2 = 25 units of gold, and suddenly their money disappears.

Posted by RCG Trader on 12-19-11 05:06 AM:

Quote from Bob111:

start at fx..yep...why fx? go brave and start with options..nah..start with options on futures!

---Fund it with whatever you are comfortable with losing.---

do it once and lose it all..stop..learn(or think\pretend that you learn something)then lose it all again..then over and over again!

s**t..this place is full of knowledge! and everyone making 400K a day every day!

Bob.

Starting with fx, means a rookie trader cannot blow up. He can trade until he gets it right.

Do you have a problem with that?

Posted by RCG Trader on 12-19-11 05:08 AM:

Quote from Bob111:

one can apply same rationale for my recommendation above about options. but i'm just kidding and looks like you are not..imo-it's a really BAD to advise ANYTHING in this business in first place. specially to the people you don't know. their risk tolerance.,financial situation.. etc..#2-imo it 's a bad idea\advise to start with ANY highly leveraged instrument.#3 it's a bad idea to advise anything that involves ridiculous amount of variables. and that's exactly what you are suggesting to noob...

micro lots doesn't mean micro bets and that's exactly why 90%(i would say 99% on fx trading) lose..cause they are under capitalized.
and they threat this $50 bet exactly as it is.. a BET. like in casino. good luck with this approach

So a person start with a buck. With Oanda he can trade that buck. This is how one learns.

You can work out all those variables, and you don't even have to risk what it cost to get a Big Mac.

Posted by Lornz on 12-19-11 08:36 AM:

Quote from Bob111:

i can sing 100 times better than little wayne...probably you too..i'm failed singer..singing is BS!!!! 99% of singers just lose!

Posted by JunkbondS on 12-19-11 04:34 PM:

While I'm happy Nodoji is having a winning streak.

However, I'll bet Nodoji would be having the same winning streak had he simply guessed at direction for each entry.

Junkbonds

Posted by Sam Morgan on 12-19-11 05:52 PM:

Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from tortoise:

actually, i think swing traders are dead. this is daytrading heaven

__________________
"Even a Thousand Mile Journey Begins with the First Step"

Posted by sheda on 12-19-11 06:01 PM:

micro lots doesn't mean micro bets and that's exactly why 90%(i would say 99% on fx trading) lose..cause they are under capitalized. And they threat this $50 bet exactly as it is.. a BET. like in casino. good luck with this approach

So they should save $100,000, then go live eh?They wouldt lose then

Posted by tradewiz50 on 12-19-11 06:43 PM:

Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from Bear Trader:

I cant see any day trader making and end of the year profit for the next 3 years. It is going to be brutal quit day trading, HFT and the unstable markets is going to kill you all. There are going to be more chops than a Chefs knife. More swings and bounces than a Tennis match. Pls dont say I did not warn you. The only people who are going to make money are the swing and long term traders. Day trading is dead!!

You just suck ass as a trader.

You have a potential to make money everyday in the market.

Posted by noob_trad3r on 12-19-11 06:44 PM:

Daytrading by individuals is a losing battle with HFT. there are other ways to make money in the markets but no day trading.

Posted by tit_head on 12-19-11 06:48 PM:

Quote from noob_trad3r:

Daytrading by individuals is a losing battle with HFT. there are other ways to make money in the markets but no day trading.

Prove it then, give us your analysis of the ES today and how there was no opportunities to make money.

Posted by sheda on 12-19-11 06:50 PM:

Quote from tit_head:

Prove it then, give us your analysis of the ES today and how there was no opportunities to make money.

Yes..do this pleeeeeeeeease.

Posted by Sam Morgan on 12-19-11 06:59 PM:

Quote from ronblack:

There is money to be made in all timeframe. Daytrading is more demanding but you sleep better. Swing trading takes away some of the peace of mind during sleep.

Wise words

__________________
"Even a Thousand Mile Journey Begins with the First Step"

Posted by JunkbondS on 12-19-11 07:47 PM:

Guys, there us no evidence if day traders being successful in the current market. Just claims on a message board--- seriously, there is no evidence other than the fact day traders are dropping like flies due to HFT and ever changing bots. Yeah some will win even over time, just like at the casino. But overall it's dead. Otherwise produce the evidence or stop dreaming.

Posted by IanMacQuaide on 12-19-11 08:23 PM:

Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from tradewiz50:

....
You have a potential to make money everyday in the market.

Exactly! We all have different belief systems.
Some are positive, some are negative.
I choose the positive, and it works. Listen to people who say "life is hard and people are mean"!
They're always right.
Or, in my case, I listen to folks who say "Life is good, people are nice, and I'm happy!"
That works too.
For me.

__________________
too soon old, too late smart

Posted by SimpleTrades on 12-19-11 08:27 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from IanMacQuaide:

Exactly! We all have different belief systems.
Some are positive, some are negative.
I choose the positive, and it works. Listen to people who say "life is hard and people are mean"!
They're always right.
Or, in my case, I listen to folks who say "Life is good, people are nice, and I'm happy!"
That works too.
For me.

Exactly. If you believe day trading is dead, daytrading is dead, for YOU. If you believe day trading is gambling, then YOU are gambling. If you convince yourself that it is impossible, then yes, for you, it is impossible.

You are a loser if you convince yourself that you are a loser.

Posted by sheda on 12-19-11 08:27 PM:

Quote from JunkbondS:

Guys, there us no evidence if day traders being successful in the current market. Just claims on a message board--- seriously, there is no evidence other than the fact day traders are dropping like flies due to HFT and ever changing bots. Yeah some will win even over time, just like at the casino. But overall it's dead. Otherwise produce the evidence or stop dreaming.

As its so widespread and clear to you perhaps you would like to produce the evidence, select a few charts and show us;)

Posted by JunkbondS on 12-19-11 08:56 PM:

Quote from sheda:

As its so widespread and clear to you perhaps you would like to produce the evidence, select a few charts and show us;)

I don't need to produce the evidence. Its all around you-- where are the successful daytraders? We all know successful business people and investors but no one ever claims to have made wealth daytrading. If so, where are they outside of claims and message Board shut ins?

Posted by JunkbondS on 12-19-11 09:00 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from bhardy307:

Exactly. If you believe day trading is dead, daytrading is dead, for YOU. If you believe day trading is gambling, then YOU are gambling. If you convince yourself that it is impossible, then yes, for you, it is impossible.

You are a loser if you convince yourself that you are a loser.

Where are the winners? Why do the "winners" always seem to sell education or books?

Something doesn't make sense. Produce one succesful daytrader overtime who can rival even the lowliest subway franchise owner in terms of wealth. No OPM hedgies or book selling jockeys please.

Posted by Bob111 on 12-19-11 09:07 PM:

Quote from JunkbondS:

Guys, there us no evidence if day traders being successful in the current market. Just claims on a message board--- seriously, there is no evidence other than the fact day traders are dropping like flies due to HFT and ever changing bots. Yeah some will win even over time, just like at the casino. But overall it's dead. Otherwise produce the evidence or stop dreaming.

is my statement on page 5 is not enough? or we are going to slip back to old argument that it was fake\altered?
so far i have no seen ANY proof from ANYONE here, that one was able to make a steady buck off the market. regardless to the time frame.
all i see is the posts without any valid argument\evidence how one did make 400K a day..or100K..make it fucking round,and say i did make 1B a day..why not?

Posted by d08 on 12-19-11 09:07 PM:

Quote from JunkbondS:

I don't need to produce the evidence. Its all around you-- where are the successful daytraders? We all know successful business people and investors but no one ever claims to have made wealth daytrading. If so, where are they outside of claims and message Board shut ins?

Generally traders don't make enough to make it to the billionaire level, simply because there isn't that much liquidity out there.
Few years back I read an article on Yahoo that was showing the most expensive houses in the US, one belonged to a commodities trader...
What you don't realize in your simple thought, is that when you are rich, you DON'T want publicity since that makes you a target for all sorts of people with criminal intentions.

Posted by SimpleTrades on 12-19-11 09:13 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from JunkbondS:

Where are the winners? Why do the "winners" always seem to sell education or books?

Something doesn't make sense. Produce one succesful daytrader overtime who can rival even the lowliest subway franchise owner in terms of wealth. No OPM hedgies or book selling jockeys please.

I personally am a rather private person. This is why I enjoy trading. I really enjoy the peace and independance. Although I can not yet call myself a successful trader, if I were, I don't think I would be going around telling everybody how successful I am. I would quietly go about my business. In fact, I don't think I would chose to trade for a life time. Instead, I would make my money and then get out, invest my profits and live off of the proceeds. Once the money is made, I'd much rather get back to spending time with my wife, soon to be, new baby, and my friends. Also I'd really like to rocover my skills on the violin that I lost when I was in my early 20s as a result of an injury.

In other words, I don't think most day traders are very public people like your average successful business man. Most are rather private people who will largely conceal their accumulated wealth from the general public. Those who would make it very public are more likely to lose their money at a later date due to their ego. Much like a very vocal lottery winner will be bankrupt in a few years.

Imagine suffering through several years of losing money, and then finally getting it and making money. Would you make this very public? I wouln't. I'd be very quiet about it, and then move on to something else in my life.

Posted by sheda on 12-19-11 09:14 PM:

I don't need to produce the evidence.

PLEASE - just show me one chart covering 5 days of which it was absolutely impossible to make any money day trading..PLEASE do this.

Posted by sheda on 12-19-11 09:17 PM:

It does not matter where the successful individuals are, what's more important is the environment in which money is made and that's public, so with this public material show us for god sake.

Posted by JunkbondS on 12-19-11 09:50 PM:

Quote from sheda:

PLEASE - just show me one chart covering 5 days of which it was absolutely impossible to make any money day trading..PLEASE do this.

Huh?
Ever see a chart from a random number generator? Think you can make money from that? Looks just Like a stock chart.

Like I said, random entries can make
Money so I don't get your point

Posted by sheda on 12-19-11 09:56 PM:

Quote from JunkbondS:

Huh?
Ever see a chart from a random number generator? Think you can make money from that? Looks just Like a stock chart.

Like I said, random entries can make
Money so I don't get your point

I have nothing more to say...

Posted by N54_Fan on 12-19-11 10:14 PM:

Quote from JunkbondS:

Huh?
Ever see a chart from a random number generator? Think you can make money from that? Looks just Like a stock chart.

Like I said, random entries can make
Money so I don't get your point

I dont day trade because I do not have the temperament or skills to do it successfully. I have tried but at present I cannot do it. Does that mean others can not do it ...ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! I am better suited to swing trading but to say day trading is gambling and impossible to make money is very narrow minded. In addition, your comments above seem to suggest you are a failed trader of whatever time frame.... Just reminds me if one of Aesops Fables where the fox could not jump up and reach the grapes on a tree and said ..."They're probably sour."

Good luck Mr. Fox.

N54_Fan

Posted by NoDoji on 12-19-11 11:24 PM:

JunkiBondKing,

If you can't day trade and you want to learn how to do so, ask in a nice way for help here on ET and it will be given freely, as very much help was given to me and many others here when we were starting out.

If you're an accomplished trader and have proof that standard price action trading tactics don't work on an intraday basis, post your pretty pictures and explanations so all the poor misled noobs here can avoid these dangerous waters.

Otherwise, waste your keystrokes somewhere else because nothing you've posted is of any use to anyone.

Noddy

Posted by Bob111 on 12-19-11 11:30 PM:

Quote from sheda:

I have nothing more to say...

(with voice of Beavis- hehe hehe..random numbers generator...)..

Posted by the1 on 12-19-11 11:37 PM:

Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Not true. No more need be said.

Quote from Bear Trader:

I cant see any day trader making and end of the year profit for the next 3 years. It is going to be brutal quit day trading, HFT and the unstable markets is going to kill you all. There are going to be more chops than a Chefs knife. More swings and bounces than a Tennis match. Pls dont say I did not warn you. The only people who are going to make money are the swing and long term traders. Day trading is dead!!

Posted by JunkbondS on 12-19-11 11:48 PM:

Quote from N54_Fan:

I dont day trade because I do not have the temperament or skills to do it successfully. I have tried but at present I cannot do it. Does that mean others can not do it ...ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! I am better suited to swing trading but to say day trading is gambling and impossible to make money is very narrow minded. In addition, your comments above seem to suggest you are a failed trader of whatever time frame.... Just reminds me if one of Aesops Fables where the fox could not jump up and reach the grapes on a tree and said ..."They're probably sour."

Good luck Mr. Fox.

N54_Fan

Computers don't have temperaments. I never said impossible. People do it all the time( make money daytrading) it's just never consistent or reliable without exploiting an edge like HFT does for examPle.

Posted by tradin4profits on 12-19-11 11:52 PM:

Quote from JunkbondS:

Huh?
Ever see a chart from a random number generator? Think you can make money from that? Looks just Like a stock chart.

Like I said, random entries can make
Money so I don't get your point

Hey there Junk! I make money daytrading, in fact it is all I do. I never hold overnight. And get this guy To this day I HAVE NEVER STUDIED TRADING AT ALL unless you want to call 12 years screen time studying. All it takes is a little common sense!Persistence and effort!

Posted by bwolinsky on 12-20-11 12:03 AM:

Quote from Bob111:

start at fx..yep...why fx? go brave and start with options..nah..start with options on futures!

---Fund it with whatever you are comfortable with losing.---

do it once and lose it all..stop..learn(or think\pretend that you learn something)then lose it all again..then over and over again!

s**t..this place is full of knowledge! and everyone making 400K a day every day!

Lol!

__________________
HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

Bud Fox

Wall Street

Posted by Bob111 on 12-20-11 12:20 AM:

Quote from JunkbondS:

Computers don't have temperaments. I never said impossible. People do it all the time( make money daytrading) it's just never consistent or reliable without exploiting an edge like HFT does for examPle.

one more time-statement on page 5..if this is not consistent enough for you-then i don't know what is.

Posted by artfartdart on 12-20-11 12:23 AM:

this is exciting: the more people who throw in the day trading towel, the greater the edge for the rest of us will be! time to turn my size up..

__________________
artfartdart

Posted by JunkbondS on 12-20-11 12:58 AM:

Quote from N54_Fan:

I dont day trade because I do not have the temperament or skills to do it successfully. I have tried but at present I cannot do it. Does that mean others can not do it ...ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! I am better suited to swing trading but to say day trading is gambling and impossible to make money is very narrow minded. In addition, your comments above seem to suggest you are a failed trader of whatever time frame.... Just reminds me if one of Aesops Fables where the fox could not jump up and reach the grapes on a tree and said ..."They're probably sour."

Good luck Mr. Fox.

N54_Fan

Posted by R. Raskolnikov on 12-20-11 01:00 AM:

Surf, this is just wrong. Now go away

Quote from JunkbondS:

Computers don't have temperaments. I never said impossible. People do it all the time( make money daytrading) it's just never consistent or reliable without exploiting an edge like HFT does for examPle.

Posted by Wide Tailz on 12-20-11 03:12 AM:

Quote from JunkbondS:

I don't need to produce the evidence. Its all around you-- where are the successful daytraders? We all know successful business people and investors but no one ever claims to have made wealth daytrading. If so, where are they outside of claims and message Board shut ins?

Here's one:

tradestocksamerica.com

This guy was the first to show me a profitable technique. I didn't use it until I lost a lot of money trading my own way, and listening to Prechter.

Posted by Mirzy on 12-20-11 03:14 AM:

This December had pretty good volatility. Moves every day. Seems good.

Posted by stock777 on 12-20-11 03:28 AM:

u gotz some whey to b on the rite side of da move every time, or most 'o the thyme?

I awaitz yor reply

__________________
"Those that know ain't saying, and those saying don't know." - E. A. Neumann

A bear since 1958 and proud of it.

Posted by ronin266 on 12-20-11 04:01 AM:

Quote from Wide Tailz:

Here's one:

tradestocksamerica.com

This guy was the first to show me a profitable technique. I didn't use it until I lost a lot of money trading my own way, and listening to Prechter.

LOL That site has more testimonials that trading info LOL.

I�m pretty sure that you gonna get out from there knowing how to make good testimonials ROFL.

P.s. Oh, sorry, U�re already good at it

Posted by NoDoji on 12-20-11 01:20 PM:

Quote from stock777:

u gotz some whey to b on the rite side of da move every time, or most 'o the thyme?

I awaitz yor reply

Why do you have to be on the right side of the move every time or most of the time? Earlier this month I was on the right side of the move 8 times out of 29 trades and netted 212 ticks ($10/tick).

Posted by noob_trad3r on 12-20-11 02:19 PM:

Quote from tit_head:

Prove it then, give us your analysis of the ES today and how there was no opportunities to make money.

I dont trade ES.

I do not day trade period.

Posted by Pekelo on 12-20-11 03:17 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from JunkbondS:

Where are the winners? Why do the "winners" always seem to sell education or books?

For big names, Larry Williams and Don Miller. Regardless of what one thinks about them, they are both profitable daytraders. (and they sell things for more money, fucking duh)

For small names, somebody posted here a broker's list with the records (well a few pages of it). When I went through it, something like 25% was making money. Now of course we don't know their trading styles, but even if only half of those were daytraders, that is still 12% against your zero % claim.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...ders+make+money

By the way Surf, what is the address of your blog?

Posted by Wide Tailz on 12-20-11 11:33 PM:

Quote from ronin266:

LOL That site has more testimonials that trading info LOL.

I�m pretty sure that you gonna get out from there knowing how to make good testimonials ROFL.

P.s. Oh, sorry, U�re already good at it

Stochastic oversold reversal confirmed by 5 sma on 1 min tick chart on an up trending stock. Check it.

Posted by ronin266 on 12-20-11 11:53 PM:

Quote from Wide Tailz:

Stochastic oversold reversal confirmed by 5 sma on 1 min tick chart on an up trending stock. Check it.

Show me PnL, not a signal of "The Method". You can find oversold areas after reading any "Trade stocks, become a billionaire" book. (and that book will be a lot cheaper than the "education" on testimonials

Posted by Wide Tailz on 12-21-11 12:05 AM:

True, I've never audited his statements. The method worked and opened my eyes to price based trading. I also had his daily updates for a year and watched him obliterate me with this simple method which I refused to follow.

Then there is the "bullshort" or "spike short" based on a broken parabola and volume implosion. Works too.

Check it.

Posted by Rodney King on 12-22-11 06:37 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from Pekelo:

By the way Surf, what is the address of your blog?

I'm hearing he has a new signal site, iBinaryTrade.

Posted by Landis82 on 12-22-11 06:45 PM:

Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from tortoise:

actually, i think swing traders are dead. this is daytrading heaven

Exactly!
The OP doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.
And on top of that, he's probably a "noob" using a data feed / platform from either ToS or TD Ameritrade. Good Luck with that!

Posted by pattern43 on 12-24-11 04:18 AM:

Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from Bear Trader:

I cant see any day trader making and end of the year profit for the next 3 years. It is going to be brutal quit day trading, HFT and the unstable markets is going to kill you all. There are going to be more chops than a Chefs knife. More swings and bounces than a Tennis match. Pls dont say I did not warn you. The only people who are going to make money are the swing and long term traders. Day trading is dead!!

You've got the conclusions right... but for the wrong reason. People forget that trading is a zero sum gamee, meaning the only way to build up your account is to destroy someone else's dreams. In short, coveting your neighbor's cash/margin account. Remembering that this is sinful behavior ("Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's property), it's never too late or too early to quit and save your soul! The faster you run away from trading, the sooner something better comes along and replaces it!

Posted by Swan Noir on 12-24-11 05:15 AM:

Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

If this is a serious comment and not a joke -- and I have my doubts -- then we have descended into the farthest reaches of insanity!!

Quote from pattern43:

You've got the conclusions right... but for the wrong reason. People forget that trading is a zero sum gamee, meaning the only way to build up your account is to destroy someone else's dreams. In short, coveting your neighbor's cash/margin account. Remembering that this is sinful behavior ("Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's property), it's never too late or too early to quit and save your soul! The faster you run away from trading, the sooner something better comes along and replaces it!

__________________
Swan Noir

Posted by Handle123 on 12-24-11 06:52 AM:

Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from pattern43:

You've got the conclusions right... but for the wrong reason. People forget that trading is a zero sum gamee, meaning the only way to build up your account is to destroy someone else's dreams. In short, coveting your neighbor's cash/margin account. Remembering that this is sinful behavior ("Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's property), it's never too late or too early to quit and save your soul! The faster you run away from trading, the sooner something better comes along and replaces it!

First, trading is NOT a zero sum game, there is equipment to purchase, Internet, software and commissions. It is actually expensive in terms of just starting up. Second, as you say "destroy someone else's dreams", they certainly have the same desires toward me, day trading is no different than trading stocks long term-if you were to buy IBM and I sold short and the Price rises-guess what, I am losing my money to you.

Whether it is trading or you working for hourly/salary is truly no different. If the company paid you less, would my widgets cost less for me to buy? And if you get a raise, the widgets cost more and taking more out of my accounts.

Just existing in this life costs money, and whether you agree or not, just going to a store is a form of trading money for goods.

Posted by Salmon on 12-24-11 07:46 AM:

I have 30% profit for 10 month on Forex. I can trade like scalper, daytrader or swingtrader, don� blame people............looser. Not great result but better than lose 30%. Most of my trades are swing trades.

Posted by d08 on 12-24-11 11:06 AM:

Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from pattern43:

You've got the conclusions right... but for the wrong reason. People forget that trading is a zero sum gamee, meaning the only way to build up your account is to destroy someone else's dreams. In short, coveting your neighbor's cash/margin account. Remembering that this is sinful behavior ("Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's property), it's never too late or too early to quit and save your soul! The faster you run away from trading, the sooner something better comes along and replaces it!

I'm not christened and in fact have no religious affiliation, therefore I can do all of the above. Damn, it's good to be an atheist.

Posted by JamesL on 12-24-11 03:24 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from Swan Noir:

If this is a serious comment and not a joke -- and I have my doubts -- then we have descended into the farthest reaches of insanity!!

He's been spamming the board with his own moralistic bull shit for months now. Just ignore him.

Posted by gptrader on 12-24-11 04:43 PM:

Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from Bear Trader:

I cant see any day trader making and end of the year profit for the next 3 years. It is going to be brutal quit day trading, HFT and the unstable markets is going to kill you all. There are going to be more chops than a Chefs knife. More swings and bounces than a Tennis match. Pls dont say I did not warn you. The only people who are going to make money are the swing and long term traders. Day trading is dead!!

Your post is based on not have the discipline to trade, a system that works and knowing when or not to trade. There is money to be made intraday, and almost everyday.

Posted by AKUMATOTENSHI on 12-25-11 04:24 AM:

Re: Day traders pls quit while you can

Quote from Bear Trader:

I cant see any day trader making and end of the year profit for the next 3 years. It is going to be brutal quit day trading, HFT and the unstable markets is going to kill you all. There are going to be more chops than a Chefs knife. More swings and bounces than a Tennis match. Pls dont say I did not warn you. The only people who are going to make money are the swing and long term traders. Day trading is dead!!

As long as there is 2% price volitilty in any given stock there will always be day traders. After a person gets their letter from the SEC stating that they have been identified as a P.D.T. and a couple of sucessful trades. They will always return. The house might raise the capital requirements and change the rules on a whim but that is part of humanity. People of wealth don't like competition they are a the top and will do anything to prevent an open market. With out day traders and HFT the market would be dead and too predictable. The gains made by day traders pale in comparison to the money made by brokerage houses who are doing the exact same thing. The market likes to use fear and greed as its tools logic and reason are there to keep it going.

Welcome to Planet Misery,

Akuma

BUY GOLD!!!

Posted by ammo on 12-30-11 08:33 PM:

Quote from JunkbondS:

Guys, there us no evidence if day traders being successful in the current market. Just claims on a message board--- seriously, there is no evidence other than the fact day traders are dropping like flies due to HFT and ever changing bots. Yeah some will win even over time, just like at the casino. But overall it's dead. Otherwise produce the evidence or stop dreaming.

99% of new traders blow their 1st 3 yrs of accts,simply because they don't know what they are doing,swing trading,day trading are both rigged with plenty of traps to catch any trader,experience helps you avoid those..if you know how to trade ,it can be profitable,but it will never be like finding money on the sidewalk,no different than any other job,the proof is in the daily volume ,year in,year out,lot's of folks are making it,if you are not, then you're just not their yet,someone posted this on another thread here on et,if you had to work at a job for 4 yrs making nothing ,but the pay off was you would be making 1 million a year down the road, would you do it..along with learning how to trade ,you need to learn how to push negative thoughts out of your head,because the training fo this job is a big shit sandwich for the 1st few years,if you let that get to you,you lose,you just lose

Posted by nkhoi on 01-13-12 08:11 PM:

a nod to our sponsor http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...=6&pagenumber=5

Posted by kricka on 01-14-12 10:46 AM:

ammo,

I agree most new traders entering the scene don't know what they are doing. 3-5 years to get profitable is my guess. A lot of money spent for the education to become a full time pro trader.

Most traders do forget, or do not have knowledge about the important aspect of money management in trading. They get the picture after a few blown up accounts and a lot of pain along the way.
Account protection is also not used the way it should. I'm surprised that so few traders bring this so important subject up, it's crucial to get educated how it works. I think a lot of borderline winner/losers can cross over to the winning side if they implant account protection in their trading plan.

Have a look at the short video below, it show how easy it is to lock in profit and minimize the loss.

VIDEO: How to protect your trading account.

Posted by speero on 01-14-12 11:57 PM:

Trade stocks in play, make a plan, and most importantly, follow the plan. Also it helps immensely to know how a stock you're trading trades. What I mean by that is watch it's movements intra-day before trading via video replay or something.

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