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Advice on buying some Pistols
So I'm talking with an acquaintance of mine that I haven't seen in years and he tells me the story about how his life has been a living hell since the last time I saw him. In short, a couple guys broke into his house, tied him up, and the raped his girlfriend in front of him. He had no weapons in the house.
His story has been on my mind so much recently that I've been seriously entertaining the idea of getting a couple pistols, one for myself, and one for my wife in the event I'm not around. The problem is that the pistol market is so vast that I'm not sure where to start. It seems like Kimber is the Rolls-Royce of the pistol market, but I'm not sure I NEED that level simply for self defense purposes.
Anybody experienced in this field have some advice or recommendations??
did your friend live in a bad neighborhood?
For your wife
For you
__________________
"You have to fix your roof when it's sunny outside" - JFK
If your new to firearms seriously consider getting some instruction. Shooting yourself or someone else unintended kinda defeats the whole purpose.
If you're dead set on a handgun and you don't plan on using it with any regularity consider a revolver. They are somewhat less likely to jam and there is no magazine spring to weaken over time. Not to mention a gun novice trying to unjam a semi auto in "the heat of the moment" could again defeat the whole purpose.
You may also want to consider a short shotgun. While not as easy to wield indoors as a handgun you're less like to shoot yourself with it, the shot has less penetration than bullets reducing the risk of collateral damage and the sound of chambering a round alone may very well prevent you from having to spill some assholes blood and guts all over your expensive floor.
Quote from shortie:
did your friend live in a bad neighborhood?
Quote from shortie:
did your friend live in a bad neighborhood?
HD Security cameras, at least 1 wide angel(aim driveway and door) and 1 close-up at entry door (total 2 cameras at door). need more cameras at corners and back door. and put all these cameras on UPS.
1 long gun and 1 sidearm inside house.
__________________
"You have to fix your roof when it's sunny outside" - JFK
Quote from Lucrum:
If your new to firearms seriously consider getting some instruction. Shooting yourself or someone else unintended kinda defeats the whole purpose.
If you're dead set on a handgun and you don't plan on using it with any regularity consider a revolver. They are somewhat less likely to jam and there is no magazine spring to weaken over time. Not to mention a gun novice trying to unjam a semi auto in "the heat of the moment" could again defeat the whole purpose.
You may also want to consider a short shotgun. While not as easy to wield indoors as a handgun you're less like to shoot yourself with it, the shot has less penetration than bullets reducing the risk of collateral damage and the sound of chambering a round alone may very well prevent you from having to spill some assholes blood and guts all over your expensive floor.
Ok, here are the steps:
(1) Go to a gun store that has a large selection of handguns and see if the following FIT you and your Wife's hands, you can both work the actions (the slide or clyinder of a revolver) to make sure you are comfortable with them, etc., You MUST be comfortable with your handgun first before you will have the confidence to use it. (Correctly)
Glock 17- 17 round 9mm
Glock 22- 15 round .40 cal)
Glock 26- compact 9mm that will also take the full size mags.
Glock 27- compact .40 cal that will also take the full size magazines.
Kimber 1911 .45 auto THIS is the cadiallac of an out of the box tactical .45 that is being used by SEALS, USMC, Delta Force, etc., It is reliable, accurate, and damn deadly if you make your shots count.
ANY Sig Sauer pistol These are what police departments carry if they don't carry a Glock.
Smith & Wesson airweight .38 Special. They even have a .357 magnum in an airweight, but don't do it. It has way too much recoil.
(2) Take a concealed weapons carry course. The instructor, usually is an off duty cop, and must be an NRA firearms instructor, will go over safety, as well as tactical uses indoors such as your home. Then you'll go to the range, and fire about 50-60 rounds.
(3) Buy a crimson trace or comparable lazer. If you are SERIOUS about hitting your target in the areas that will stop an attack, you NEED a lazer on your firearm for in home use.
(4) Clear your weapons making sure they are absolutely unloaded, and practice going through your home at night with the weapon at the "tactical ready" as you traverse corners, clear rooms, etc., Have your spouse (and visa versa) put a piece of cardboard, or something you can identify as "a bad guy" who shouldn't be there then you practice getting that lazer on target fast, squeezing the trigger smoothly, and dry firing several taps. The key is to keep the lazer constant as you squeeze the trigger. In live fire, the weapon will be recoiling, so taking your lazer to the range is a must, and will REALLY bring up your confidence in stopping an attack quickly.
(5) Go to the range every six months minimum if you want to keep your sight alignment, and trigger control skills sharp. You'll want to shoot at least 150-200 rounds in the neeling position, prone, standing, traversing an obstacle such as a wall, AND also shoot with your weak hand. i.e, if the bad guy were to immobalize your dominant hand, you need to know how to use that weapon with the other hand. Not many people do the strong hand/weak hand training, but your concealed weapons instructor will have you do it with 12-15 rounds. You need to practice with more ammo than that with left and right hand to be confident in your new skills.
After 1-5, you are confident, proficient, have a permit to carry your firearm in your State in a holster under your coat, and are at peace knowing you can protect your life and limb. I'm very sorry to hear about your Friend and his Wife. Whether or not a handgun in the home would have prevented the attack depends on the circumstances. However, if 1-5 above had been adhered to, and one of them had a weapon in hand withing a few seconds of the home being breeched, I can GUARANTEE you that the odds would have been changed consideraby.
Baron,
I would start with the most important advice in the thread so far mentioned by AAAinthebeltway. The first and most important thing you have to ask yourself (and your wife as well) is when the crap hits the fan, will you use it or not want too/freeze. Because I have read a lot of instances where many are hurt by their own gun they wouldn’t use than by someone who already has one in a home invasion (my opinion only and what I have read, makes logical sense to me as well). This is a serious question because pulling a weapon on someone and freezing in the moment is far worse than not having the weapon, hiding/running or whatever other contingency plans you have. Many can’t do it so answer that to yourself. This is all about your mindset. Will you do what it takes?
If you pass the first paragraph test, go to a gun shop and get some experience shooting. Take a course. But practice. Make sure everyone in the house can make a weapon safe and treat it with the respect it deserves. Have a home action plan for what to do when the worst happens. Regarding children, that is touchy but IMHO anyone in a house with a weapon while they might not like it or say they don’t should know how to use it and more importantly, how to make it safe. Because you never know what can happen and remember the boy scout motto, Be prepared.
Regarding a weapon, I would recommend a Glock of some type or a revolver as you prefer. 1911s are good as well but will you learn to use it properly? Caliber is another question we could debate all day. Try both and the pros and cons and make your decision. Just like in trading, it isn’t the tool, it is how you use it. Try your options, practice and become comfortable with it and then expand your arsenal from there if you feel the need or start developing an interest in weapons. Staying comfortable and proficient and their importance cannot be overstated.
Best of luck
BM
Training with it, is more important than the pistol unless you buy garbage. I am assuming you will buy something decent suggested above. Then training with it becomes more important. You are going to be scared shitless most likely if it happens.
Studies done on vietnam vets showed below 15% accuracy in combat. In other words scared shitless. As we all would be. Then the military introduced pop up targets. Accuracy has gone up above 70%. It triggers the brain, pop up, shoot down. So eventho you will be frightened and confused... so will intruders when you confront... If you train you will perform with any of the good pistols listed above.
Wow. Great feedback so far. Thanks so much guys!!
I should mention that I'm not a fan of buying cheap equipment for pretty much any purpose. So I don't mind making the investment in something that has exceptional design, quality and performance.
Also, I have quite a bit of experience with firearms in general. I had a .410 shotgun as a kid that I would use for squirrel hunting after school. I shot my first 12 gauge at the age of 7 trying to shoot skeet with my dad (almost broke my nose doing it, LOL). And even during the family holiday gatherings, our entertainment after the big meal was going out back and target shooting a variety of rifles and pistols. But the issue is I left that world behind once I moved from the country to a major metropolitan city. Fast forward 20 years and I feel completely out of the loop.
But with that said, I will still get some training for both myself and my wife. Aside from the self defense aspect, it sounds like target shooting would interesting hobby anyway. It never hurts to have additional purchase excuses for the wife 
does anybody get a feeling that US is going down very fast? when well-off people living in great neighborhoods seriously worry about their safety ("will buy guns for wife and self") in their own home this is no a good sign.
Quote from shortie:
does anybody get a feeling that US is going down very fast? when well-off people living in great neighborhoods seriously worry about their safety ("will buy guns for wife and self") in their own home this is no a good sign.
if you were a thief,wouldn't you go where they have the best stuff,lincoln park here in chicago has the highest break in stats in the city,for at least 20 years ,that's how long ago i became aware of it, for that reason
Quote from shortie:
does anybody get a feeling that US is going down very fast? when well-off people living in great neighborhoods seriously worry about their safety ("will buy guns for wife and self") in their own home this is no a good sign.
Quote from Illum:
get the feelin.... uh yea. mobs are beating the hell out of people all over the streets. Where are you from?
Quote from ammo:
if you were a thief,wouldn't you go where they have the best stuff,lincoln park here in chicago has the highest break in stats in the city,for at least 20 years ,that's how long ago i became aware of it, for that reason
Quote from shortie:
does anybody get a feeling that US is going down very fast? when well-off people living in great neighborhoods seriously worry about their safety ("will buy guns for wife and self") in their own home this is no a good sign.
Quote from shortie:
we talking about rape here
For home defense, a revolver is clearly the best choice for self defense if you are not going to the range every week to practice with a semi. Even with a semi with no safety, there is always the remote chance of a misfire. So, while the bad guy is running toward you, will you or your wife have the state of mind to re-chamber? Revolver, point and fire. Misfire, no problem, just keep pulling the trigger.
Taurus makes a model called the defender. It shoots 45 shells or 410 shells (use buckshot).
If someone is intent on doing you or your wife bodily harm, they will probably be armed as well. You may have only seconds to respond from a dead sleep.
In spite of advice I have heard against it. I believe that the best first line of defense upon hearing a breakin during the night, is a shot through the roof. The bad guy knows then that you are armed, aware of his presence and that the neighbors probably heard the shot as well. Then call 911 and watch the door. My 2c worth.
Sorry to hijack, but since it is a gun thread I thought I'd ask. Anyone have advice for appraisals for antique guns? My Dad has handed over his guns, and my wife is not real thrilled. I'll probably keep anyway, but I think I need to get them appaised at the least. I now have a WWII German Luger and holster taken off a soldier, a P -38 Walther, and a couple of older guns also, and a flint lock rifle, possibly missing it's firing pin.
I'd like to keep the WWII guns and maybe shoot them, but would be concerned with making sure they are safe to shoot.
Any input appreciated.
Quote from taclander:
Sorry to hijack, but since it is a gun thread I thought I'd ask. Anyone have advice for appraisals for antique guns? My Dad has handed over his guns, and my wife is not real thrilled. I'll probably keep anyway, but I think I need to get them appaised at the least. I now have a WWII German Luger and holster taken off a soldier, a P -38 Walther, and a couple of older guns also, and a flint lock rifle, possibly missing it's firing pin.
I'd like to keep the WWII guns and maybe shoot them, but would be concerned with making sure they are safe to shoot.
Any input appreciated.
Quote from bmwhendrix:
For home defense, a revolver is clearly the best choice for self defense if you are not going to the range every week to practice with a semi. Even with a semi with no safety, there is always the remote chance of a misfire. So, while the bad guy is running toward you, will you or your wife have the state of mind to re-chamber? Revolver, point and fire. Misfire, no problem, just keep pulling the trigger.
Taurus makes a model called the defender. It shoots 45 shells or 410 shells (use buckshot).
If someone is intent on doing you or your wife bodily harm, they will probably be armed as well. You may have only seconds to respond from a dead sleep.
In spite of advice I have heard against it. I believe that the best first line of defense upon hearing a breakin during the night, is a shot through the roof. The bad guy knows then that you are armed, aware of his presence and that the neighbors probably heard the shot as well. Then call 911 and watch the door. My 2c worth.
Quote from bmwhendrix:
Taurus makes a model called the defender. It shoots 45 shells or 410 shells (use buckshot).
I
here's an interesting comparison of handgun cartridge stopping power
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/849728/posts
I used to live in a neighborhood that had a really high burglary rate. 40% of households per year.
We went to a security firm and got some window stickers that said. 'This premises in under video surveillance' and we never got robbed in 6 years.
Having a dog is also a great warning system. As well as a great friend.
I'd recommend the above options before you concern yourself with guns.
Prevention is better than cure.
Quote from Runningbear:
..40% of households per year.
Quote from Wallet:
Taurus' "Defender is a shorter barreled version of the "Judge" and a great choice for close perimeter defense, specially when the owner may be limited on experience.
http://www.taurususa.com/product-de...dcrumbseries=41
http://www.taurususa.com/gun-select...es=41&toggle=tr
Tactical advantage? Middle of the night, all lights off. Where do you think you would be? Where do you think he would think you would be?
Downstairs, different story. I do not usually have a gun within reach at home. I guess I would be running up the stairs. "don't move, I'll be right back!"
I do have friends who have a gun hidden in every room, and one on their person as well. I am just not that paranoid yet.
Why I would shoot through the roof:
When I was much younger I had a job out of town. I unexpectedly got a day off and thought I would surprise my wife. I was also so happy about the day off that I hit a few bars back in my hometown, arriving at la hacienda about 2:oo am. Crept up the stairs and my cautious wife had locked the bedroom door as she always did when I was away. I began to beat on the door to "surprise her". When the screaming subsided enough that she could hear my voice she opened the door and gave me a lot of information, among which was that had she had a gun, I would be dead.
Most of my friends and family are pretty stable, but you never know.
But I believe the sound of a 45 would stabilize them for long enough to identify themselves.
Wallet, you are right. I was thinking of the Judge. Thanks.
Quote from Lucrum:
S&W has a similar model called the Governor.
I asked a similar question of a cop once. He said to get a short barreled shotgun. He said that crooks will run away very fast after they hear the sound of you jacking a round in it. A short barrel will have a wide pattern so you will hit what you are aiming at even if firing from the hip, you can put laser sights on those probably, that might further intimidate somebody if it's dark and they spot the laser beam and it will help you hit what you want to and miss what you want to...
Very definitely take some classes and spend some time often at the shooting range.. you shouldn't have a hard time finding somebody to go along, lots of people love the range...
If you have trouble pulling the trigger in a real situation that's one thing, some of us will not kill somebody in a war, many in fact... to me it's just a job that might fall to me some day and I'll do a bang up job if necessary, but that's just me...
There is a whole mindset that goes with personal combat. I always have two dogs and they get the idea after awhile that I don't want them barking at just anything, I want them barking when it's something real.. all my dogs have been able to get that, I get up every time they bark in the night but if it's nothing I tell them to be quiet and if it's not nothing I don't discourage them but I respond every time, that way they learn the job. My neighbors have complimented me on how lots of dogs bark but when mine bark they go check it out!!
Quote from shortie:
there are really neighborhoods like that?!?
i am glad you have escaped.
Quote from bmwhendrix:
Wallet, you are right. I was thinking of the Judge. Thanks.
Baron, this is a great pocket carry gun.
It fits easily in your front pocket or in your wife's purse and the built in laser sight works great.
http://www.cabelas.com/semiautomati...-pistol-3.shtml
Quote from LEAPup:
Read the reviews on the judge. It's a total marketing joke. Trust me, it's not what people should buy for self defense. Come on guys...
Quote from volente_00:
What's your issue with it ?
My buddy keeps one on his nightstand and loves it. He has many pistols but being in an apartment setting had him worried about collateral damage so that is why he bought his.
Quote from LEAPup:
My only issues are what I experienced through ownership of one. Lol I started researching it on forums AFTER I bought the silly thing, and the reviews were pretty sour. It's more of a "gimmicky," marketing piece than anything tactical.
It's impossible to carry concealed. It "prints" too much under anything besides some eskimo's snowsuit.
It's not a quality piece of craftsmanship. I wouldn't use it to protect my Family and myself. No way. The lack of crastsmanship was the sell button for me vs. the tactical issues it has...
There are better options out there. Remember, shot placement through proper sight alignment, correct trigger squeeze, all while having to come awake quickly, be under stress, etc., and engage a deadly enemy... It certainly can be done to protect a Family, and has done so for centuries.
What's wrong with them having a reliable 2 1/2" six round .38 Special with ruber grips and the crimson trace lazer? The key to over-penetration ammunition choice and the handgun. I would chose a hollow point round that has max energy expended upon penetration, expansion, and probability of staying withit the target. If the hollow point "mushrooms" as it should, the tissue will slow it vs. a round nose full metal jacket round that is much more commonly purchased by mistake.
If you are going to buy a gun for you and your wife for self defense and you do not have any experience with firearms i would suggest you go to your local indoor firing range and purchase a .38 revolver, snubnose S&W makes a nice one. Get instruction from the indoor range master. Bring your wife with you and practice at the range until you both become proficient in its' use. anything more than a .38 will be harder to handle for a novice. once you feel comfortable using this weapon then buy another one. Practice regularly with them. I keep one on each floor well hidden so if someone breaks into the house you have access to it. I keep mine loaded in holsters. you and your wife must keep it in the same place so each of you know where it is. Always let your spouse know when you are expected home and a phone call right before you arrive is not a bad idea. You do not want to mistaken a family member for an intruder!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good Luck, Hope this was helpful Baron.
I once lived in a high crime area. I was working contract position making big bucks and only a few miles from where I worked there were 4-5 violent crimes in my first 2 weeks.
I was never involved in any incidents but I do not think being loaded would have been of use in many of the incidents. Examples
A. Several armed gangsters pull up beside the target car and start shooting. He drove off unharmed. A gun would be of no benefit because you would be A. outgunned and B. in no position to use it.
B. A man tries to rob another and starts shooting. The guy runs and escape unharmed. Gun maybe of benefit but you would be caught off guard.
If you are really concerned about safety, I recommend putting outside deadbolts on the bedroom doors, keep a cell phone in bedroom at all time, and ensuring the windows are secure. Keep bedroom doors locked at all times when sleeping. You may also want to consider a safe room or turning the bedroom into a mini safe room. Also, ensure the room is secure from the attic. If on ground floor, windows should be secured with bars.
Get a security system. Use doors that lock automatically. Put deadbolts on all doors and keep them deadbolt. Get motion lights too. I think if you do this you will dramatically reduce the risk of anything happening to you in your home. Never open the door to a suspicious stranger.
If you have a cell phone and deadbolted bedroom there is no way you will be surprised at night and with an alarm system, any intruder will only have about 15-30 seconds before security comes out. All you have to do is stay in the bedroom. If you are not asleep and some suspicious starts to mess around a window or bang on the door then you can always go to bedroom and call police. So, the only way you will get "got" is the case where you let someone inside or you are in/outside at the time. If you don't open door to suspicious people then that rules that out.
Before considering to get a gun, you may want to consider to get a taser (if there are any personal use models) and/or pepper spray. A great benefit is a reduced risk of improper use and also it can be used in dangerous situations where you wouldn't want to shoot someone.
Consider to get a dog but only if you are prepared to take care of it. A dog is a companion/family member that must be cared for up to 12-15 years. Large/protective dogs require training. A good dog will be better then a gun but also is a bigger investment both in money , time, and emotion.
http://www.impactguns.com/sig-556-s...8681414420.aspx
__________________
"You have to fix your roof when it's sunny outside" - JFK
If you're already proficient with a 12 ga, as you have said you are, consider the Rem 870. That with a slug at close range is very effective. Single projectile means less collateral damage. Wall-Mart sells them cheap and over the counter; no waiting.
But, the greatest deterants to crime are alarms and dogs. Get some ADT signs in your yard (call a salesman and get an estimate; he'll give you free signs) and put a big, dirty, chewed up dog's bowl, dog toys, etc. by the front door with BAD DOG signs.
Deterrent
__________________
"You have to fix your roof when it's sunny outside" - JFK
Quote from Runningbear:
Actually the neighborhood itself was really nice. But there was a large government housing project in the area which was a breeding ground for criminals. There was also a lot of heroin dealing which fueled the crime problem.
I once walked to the 7/11 to buy milk and I had to call an ambulance for a guy that had been stabbed 8 time in the thighs. His lips were blue and an he was going into shock. I knew it was over a drug debt because they avoided all his organs. They didn't want to kill him, just make sure he paid.
The prick working the counter at 7/11 made me pay for the phone call. Even though the ambulance is a free call. He didn't even care that a guy was dying at the fuel pump outside his door.
Quote from volente_00:
LOL, you really bought it for a carry ? To me it is a night stand gun and nothing more. In the heat of the moment with adrenaline flowing and an attacker in the dark coming at you it is a can't miss weapon that offers peace of mind that you won't hit the neighbors or your kids sleeping in the next room. I've never been a big taurus fan myself and would never personally buy one.
Quote from nitro:
http://www.impactguns.com/sig-556-s...8681414420.aspx
On second thought: Instead of getting bars, might want to just shop around for secure windows in case of fire and for aesthetics.
I honestly don't think you should get a gun. You sound scared. Scared people shouldn't have guns. Also, if you are concerned about your home primarily then keeping an emergency phone, getting a security system, and putting up a heavy duty door in the bedroom with a deadbolt will probably keep you safer.
One thing I notice about all the people who made it out alive when they got shot at was they ran. Not sure if this means anything but it did stick in my mind.
PS: I like the beware of dog sign even if you don't have one. It is required when a dog has bite someone before and could be a deterrent.
Here's the solution. Hang an engine block from a tree limb in your front yard. In the words of Jeff Foxworthy, "I GUARANTEE you there's a gun in that house! And they will USE it!"
A dictator with guns?? What's next??? 
(Baron, get yourself a S&W Magnum 357 Model 65. Simple, easy to use. No safety to have to fiddle with when in a hurry.)
Quote from mgookin:
...But, the greatest deterants to crime are alarms and dogs. Get some ADT signs in your yard (call a salesman and get an estimate; he'll give you free signs) and put a big, dirty, chewed up dog's bowl, dog toys, etc. by the front door with BAD DOG signs.
Quote from BSAM:
Another very good crime deterent and the simplest is lighting. I like the chewed up dog's bowl with the "BAD DOG" sign idea.
This movie character dog catcher used to get chewed up alot apparently. It gets good around 43 seconds. Lol!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BXJpmTRSW4
There is a shotgun round that I favor. It's a bean bag and it is supposed to send a shock wave through the body that breaks every bone... I'd rather shoot somebody with that and have them alive to answer questions and explain things to me than just dead on the spot, besides there's no blood to screw up carpets and walls or traumatize family members.. I prefer pepper spray for hand to hand situations for the same reason, there is not permanent damage and after you spray somebody you own them, you can kick their ribs in or whatever you want and they can answer questions when the spray wears off...
Quote from LEAPup:
This movie character dog catcher used to get chewed up alot apparently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BXJpmTRSW4
Quote from taclander:
Sorry to hijack, but since it is a gun thread I thought I'd ask. Anyone have advice for appraisals for antique guns? My Dad has handed over his guns, and my wife is not real thrilled. I'll probably keep anyway, but I think I need to get them appaised at the least. I now have a WWII German Luger and holster taken off a soldier, a P -38 Walther, and a couple of older guns also, and a flint lock rifle, possibly missing it's firing pin.
I'd like to keep the WWII guns and maybe shoot them, but would be concerned with making sure they are safe to shoot.
Any input appreciated.
Kel-tec make some interesting little carbines-no idea of quality etc, but very compact, and you won't blow your bollocks off accidentally picking it up the wrong way. Pointability, controllability-pretty important .
Why not a MP-5 (semi-auto) clone? Well, cost is one thing, all depends what's legal.
http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/sub-2000/
__________________
"What the.....?"
A well trained dog is really your best defense. See the ads in Robb Report for a few ideas.
These animals fully trained can cost $50k plus but you have a house guard and constantly watching eyes with the ability to kill if threatened. it truly is the ultimate home defense.
The dog and a 12 gauge pump shotgun pistol grip behind a locked bedroom door should do the trick. Handguns are stupid as it's very difficult to hit anything even when not stressed out/scared unless you are a true expert.
The dog will fight to the death for you, Giving you time to prepare, noise will wake you etc, if the intruder gets past the dog, he won't get past the shotgun blast when he kicks the bedroom door in.
Good luck
Surf
Re: Re: Advice on buying some Pistols
Quote from Larson:
40 cal. Sig-Sauer. It feels good in your hand, plus it gets the job done.
Quote from marketsurfer:
...Handguns are stupid...
SMurf
Quote from Baron:
Funny you said that because I'm supposed to check out a Sig 40 cal later today at the local gun shop.
Re: Re: Re: Advice on buying some Pistols
Quote from Baron:
Funny you said that because I'm supposed to check out a Sig 40 cal later today at the local gun shop.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Advice on buying some Pistols
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
... but some people are nervous about having a gun locked and cocked.
Two gangsters are playing cards.
Gangster #1: "Three kings and two aces! Let's see you beat that!"
Gangster #2: "I already have."
Gangster #1: "That's impossible! What beats a hand like mine?"
Gangster #2 (unholsters guns): "A pair of twos and a forty-five."
Short answer: get a Smith & Wesson M&P R8 and load it with .38 special, and a Benelli M4 Tactical 12 gauge shotgun, loaded with 00 buckshot. If you find you hate revolvers, get a Glock 17. Attach a flashlight mount and laser sight to both handgun and shoottie, and a bayonet to the shotgun. Keep them in a gun safe in your bed. Then, train intensively with both, using an NRA qualified instructor. Get a SOG Navy Seal 2000 knife, and carry it with you at all times in the home on a proper knife sheath.
Long answer: for home defence you need the following as a minimum:
1. Prevention is better than cure - get security doors, windows, and locks. Make your bedroom into a nearly impenetrable safe room with a fast-action door lock, keep a first aid kit, flashlight, and charged cellphone with the emergency number on speed dial for all buttons, and 2 gun safes. Get good security lights, cameras, alarm, and warning signs to deter intruders. Consider getting a guard dog. Each time you arrive home, do a quick check for signs of intrusion, then lock all the doors and ground-floor windows, before you relax. Consider getting a guard dog too.
2. One long-gun, preferably a shotgun (12 or 20 gauge), load it with 00 buckshot. Semi-auto is easier to operate under stress, and has less recoil. Pump-action is less likely to jam, but offset by more chance of short-stroking it. So, I prefer semi-auto. Something like a Benelli M4 Tactical, with a flashlight mount, laser sight mount, and bayonet/knife attachment, so even once you are out of ammo, you can still slash, stab, or club an intruder to stop them. Mossberg and Remington also do good shotguns, the pumps are cheap too.
3. At least 2 handguns of the *same* kind (training is critical, and you will shoot the gun you train on far better than one you don't), preferably a revolver (superior reliability, especially when stored for long periods; easier to operate than a semi-auto pistol), loaded with .38 special (revolvers) or 9mm (semi-autos). Do not use .357 magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP - the higher recoil, muzzle blast, and flash, makes them harder to maintain speed and accuracy on followup shots, especially in a small dark space like a bedroom at night. Only a small minority of experienced shooters can shoot the bigger calibres as accurately as they can the .38 special and 9mm. Bullet placement is 90% of stopping power - a .22 LR to the vitals will kill better than a .44 magnum to the elbow, let alone a miss. Good quality .38 special or 9mm ammo has 80%+ one-shot stop statistics, even the best .357 or .44 magnum only gets up to a bit above 90%, so not much difference.
4. Get several good combat knives (e.g. SOG Navy Seal 2000, or Cold Steel Black Bear Classic), and place them hidden around the house, 1 in each room.
5. Get two gun safes, a big one in the bedroom for the shottie, and a small one in the bed stand or under the bed, for your handgun. Keep your other handgun accessible elsewhere.
6. Ideally, take a shoulder holster and knife sheath, and carry 1 handgun, 1 knife, and 1 non-lethal weapon (pepper spray, taser) at all times. This will get you used to constantly carry weapons, which is a must for concealed carry outside the home.
7. Get the best instructor you can find locally, and get taught and train intensively until drawing, aiming, target ID, gun safety, shooting, reloading, clearing jams, gun retention, taking cover and returning fire from unconventional positions, home defence tactics, and legal issues around gun and knife use become second nature. This will take at least 6 months. Once you get better, start getting tactical training at police/soldier level, using sim ammunition, pop-up targets, or (best) other people shooting back at you with the non-lethal ammo. This will be expensive but is the only way you will learn to shoot under stress. Even pro cops and soldiers without sim-ammo training, only get accuracy of around 15-30% of shots, whereas properly trained pros get 80-90% accuracy under pressure situations. Boosting accuracy by a factor of 3 to 6 fold is BY FAR the best thing you can do. A trained shooter with a .22 LR handgun is more deadly than the typical gun owner with a .44 magnum or even a .50 BMG, just on accuracy and calm under pressure alone. Ignore the calibre and firepower fanatics, and focus on what is proven to work - training under as near to live-fire situations as you can get.
8. Keep in practise, study up on home defence drills, instruction etc. Call your local police and gun stores, NRA-certified instructors, get advice and do all the courses. If your local cops are decent, they may even send someone to take a look around your house and give you a home defence plan - you might be able to get one off-duty to advise you, for a modest fee. Get a CCW if legal in your state. Training is what saves lives, a weapon in untrained hands is as much of a liability as an asset. Doing some unarmed combat training is also useful, for weapon retention, getting to your gun/knife if surprised by an attacker, and so on. Also gets you into better shape and helps you fuck your woman better ;)
9. Defense - get a stab-resistant ballistic vest/jacket with rifle plates, and a quality helmet. Hang the jacket by your bed, and put it on as soon as you suspect intrusion. A good vest will stop almost all handgun and shotgun rounds (on the protected part), and many rifle rounds, and will resist most stabs and slashes from sharp objects. You and your wife/gf/kids wearing vests will massively increase survivability against armed intruders.
10. You are in the country which has the best self-defence, gun, and weapons rights in the world. It would be a dereliction of duty and a waste of that privilege if you did not adequately arm, train, and defend yourself, your family, and other innocent people. Self-defence is a fun hobby, a good way to meet cool people, and unlike most things people do in their spare time, it is highly productive and might one day save lives.
11. Join the NRA or whatever local pro-gun & knife/self-defence rights groups and training organisations that exist. All it takes is complacency and a few knee-jerk authoritarian politicians and public figureheads for those rights to disappear.
Quote from LEAPup:
Here's the solution. Hang an engine block from a tree limb in your front yard. In the words of Jeff Foxworthy, "I GUARANTEE you there's a gun in that house! And they will USE it!"
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:
...
Long answer: for home defence you need the following as a minimum:
1. << Snip >>
Don't leave home without one. Keep your pistola's. Break into my house and you don't kill me with the first shot, and you probably won't, I'll be sending you straight to hell, and right quick.
You wear one of those to bed, Cap'n Obvious?
Had to use a stilletto knife I had under my pillow once,worked on that occasion. Still can't stand the sight of blood.
__________________
"What the.....?"
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:
Short answer: get a Smith & Wesson M&P R8 and load it with .38 special, and a Benelli M4 Tactical 12 gauge shotgun, loaded with 00 buckshot. If you find you hate revolvers, get a Glock 17. Attach a flashlight mount and laser sight to both handgun and shoottie, and a bayonet to the shotgun. Keep them in a gun safe in your bed. Then, train intensively with both, using an NRA qualified instructor. Get a SOG Navy Seal 2000 knife, and carry it with you at all times in the home on a proper knife sheath.
Long answer: for home defence you need the following as a minimum:
1. Prevention is better than cure - get security doors, windows, and locks. Make your bedroom into a nearly impenetrable safe room with a fast-action door lock, keep a first aid kit, flashlight, and charged cellphone with the emergency number on speed dial for all buttons, and 2 gun safes. Get good security lights, cameras, alarm, and warning signs to deter intruders. Consider getting a guard dog. Each time you arrive home, do a quick check for signs of intrusion, then lock all the doors and ground-floor windows, before you relax. Consider getting a guard dog too.
2. One long-gun, preferably a shotgun (12 or 20 gauge), load it with 00 buckshot. Semi-auto is easier to operate under stress, and has less recoil. Pump-action is less likely to jam, but offset by more chance of short-stroking it. So, I prefer semi-auto. Something like a Benelli M4 Tactical, with a flashlight mount, laser sight mount, and bayonet/knife attachment, so even once you are out of ammo, you can still slash, stab, or club an intruder to stop them. Mossberg and Remington also do good shotguns, the pumps are cheap too.
3. At least 2 handguns of the *same* kind (training is critical, and you will shoot the gun you train on far better than one you don't), preferably a revolver (superior reliability, especially when stored for long periods; easier to operate than a semi-auto pistol), loaded with .38 special (revolvers) or 9mm (semi-autos). Do not use .357 magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP - the higher recoil, muzzle blast, and flash, makes them harder to maintain speed and accuracy on followup shots, especially in a small dark space like a bedroom at night. Only a small minority of experienced shooters can shoot the bigger calibres as accurately as they can the .38 special and 9mm. Bullet placement is 90% of stopping power - a .22 LR to the vitals will kill better than a .44 magnum to the elbow, let alone a miss. Good quality .38 special or 9mm ammo has 80%+ one-shot stop statistics, even the best .357 or .44 magnum only gets up to a bit above 90%, so not much difference.
4. Get several good combat knives (e.g. SOG Navy Seal 2000, or Cold Steel Black Bear Classic), and place them hidden around the house, 1 in each room.
5. Get two gun safes, a big one in the bedroom for the shottie, and a small one in the bed stand or under the bed, for your handgun. Keep your other handgun accessible elsewhere.
6. Ideally, take a shoulder holster and knife sheath, and carry 1 handgun, 1 knife, and 1 non-lethal weapon (pepper spray, taser) at all times. This will get you used to constantly carry weapons, which is a must for concealed carry outside the home.
7. Get the best instructor you can find locally, and get taught and train intensively until drawing, aiming, target ID, gun safety, shooting, reloading, clearing jams, gun retention, taking cover and returning fire from unconventional positions, home defence tactics, and legal issues around gun and knife use become second nature. This will take at least 6 months. Once you get better, start getting tactical training at police/soldier level, using sim ammunition, pop-up targets, or (best) other people shooting back at you with the non-lethal ammo. This will be expensive but is the only way you will learn to shoot under stress. Even pro cops and soldiers without sim-ammo training, only get accuracy of around 15-30% of shots, whereas properly trained pros get 80-90% accuracy under pressure situations. Boosting accuracy by a factor of 3 to 6 fold is BY FAR the best thing you can do. A trained shooter with a .22 LR handgun is more deadly than the typical gun owner with a .44 magnum or even a .50 BMG, just on accuracy and calm under pressure alone. Ignore the calibre and firepower fanatics, and focus on what is proven to work - training under as near to live-fire situations as you can get.
8. Keep in practise, study up on home defence drills, instruction etc. Call your local police and gun stores, NRA-certified instructors, get advice and do all the courses. If your local cops are decent, they may even send someone to take a look around your house and give you a home defence plan - you might be able to get one off-duty to advise you, for a modest fee. Get a CCW if legal in your state. Training is what saves lives, a weapon in untrained hands is as much of a liability as an asset. Doing some unarmed combat training is also useful, for weapon retention, getting to your gun/knife if surprised by an attacker, and so on. Also gets you into better shape and helps you fuck your woman better ;)
9. Defense - get a stab-resistant ballistic vest/jacket with rifle plates, and a quality helmet. Hang the jacket by your bed, and put it on as soon as you suspect intrusion. A good vest will stop almost all handgun and shotgun rounds (on the protected part), and many rifle rounds, and will resist most stabs and slashes from sharp objects. You and your wife/gf/kids wearing vests will massively increase survivability against armed intruders.
10. You are in the country which has the best self-defence, gun, and weapons rights in the world. It would be a dereliction of duty and a waste of that privilege if you did not adequately arm, train, and defend yourself, your family, and other innocent people. Self-defence is a fun hobby, a good way to meet cool people, and unlike most things people do in their spare time, it is highly productive and might one day save lives.
11. Join the NRA or whatever local pro-gun & knife/self-defence rights groups and training organisations that exist. All it takes is complacency and a few knee-jerk authoritarian politicians and public figureheads for those rights to disappear.
Geez, where do you live - Iraq???!!!
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:
Short answer: get a Smith & Wesson M&P R8 and load it with .38 special, and a Benelli M4 Tactical 12 gauge shotgun, loaded with 00 buckshot. If you find you hate revolvers, get a Glock 17. Attach a flashlight mount and laser sight to both handgun and shoottie, and a bayonet to the shotgun. Keep them in a gun safe in your bed. Then, train intensively with both, using an NRA qualified instructor. Get a SOG Navy Seal 2000 knife, and carry it with you at all times in the home on a proper knife sheath.
Long answer: for home defence you need the following as a minimum:
1. Prevention is better than cure - get security doors, windows, and locks. Make your bedroom into a nearly impenetrable safe room with a fast-action door lock, keep a first aid kit, flashlight, and charged cellphone with the emergency number on speed dial for all buttons, and 2 gun safes. Get good security lights, cameras, alarm, and warning signs to deter intruders. Consider getting a guard dog. Each time you arrive home, do a quick check for signs of intrusion, then lock all the doors and ground-floor windows, before you relax. Consider getting a guard dog too.
2. One long-gun, preferably a shotgun (12 or 20 gauge), load it with 00 buckshot. Semi-auto is easier to operate under stress, and has less recoil. Pump-action is less likely to jam, but offset by more chance of short-stroking it. So, I prefer semi-auto. Something like a Benelli M4 Tactical, with a flashlight mount, laser sight mount, and bayonet/knife attachment, so even once you are out of ammo, you can still slash, stab, or club an intruder to stop them. Mossberg and Remington also do good shotguns, the pumps are cheap too.
3. At least 2 handguns of the *same* kind (training is critical, and you will shoot the gun you train on far better than one you don't), preferably a revolver (superior reliability, especially when stored for long periods; easier to operate than a semi-auto pistol), loaded with .38 special (revolvers) or 9mm (semi-autos). Do not use .357 magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP - the higher recoil, muzzle blast, and flash, makes them harder to maintain speed and accuracy on followup shots, especially in a small dark space like a bedroom at night. Only a small minority of experienced shooters can shoot the bigger calibres as accurately as they can the .38 special and 9mm. Bullet placement is 90% of stopping power - a .22 LR to the vitals will kill better than a .44 magnum to the elbow, let alone a miss. Good quality .38 special or 9mm ammo has 80%+ one-shot stop statistics, even the best .357 or .44 magnum only gets up to a bit above 90%, so not much difference.
4. Get several good combat knives (e.g. SOG Navy Seal 2000, or Cold Steel Black Bear Classic), and place them hidden around the house, 1 in each room.
5. Get two gun safes, a big one in the bedroom for the shottie, and a small one in the bed stand or under the bed, for your handgun. Keep your other handgun accessible elsewhere.
6. Ideally, take a shoulder holster and knife sheath, and carry 1 handgun, 1 knife, and 1 non-lethal weapon (pepper spray, taser) at all times. This will get you used to constantly carry weapons, which is a must for concealed carry outside the home.
7. Get the best instructor you can find locally, and get taught and train intensively until drawing, aiming, target ID, gun safety, shooting, reloading, clearing jams, gun retention, taking cover and returning fire from unconventional positions, home defence tactics, and legal issues around gun and knife use become second nature. This will take at least 6 months. Once you get better, start getting tactical training at police/soldier level, using sim ammunition, pop-up targets, or (best) other people shooting back at you with the non-lethal ammo. This will be expensive but is the only way you will learn to shoot under stress. Even pro cops and soldiers without sim-ammo training, only get accuracy of around 15-30% of shots, whereas properly trained pros get 80-90% accuracy under pressure situations. Boosting accuracy by a factor of 3 to 6 fold is BY FAR the best thing you can do. A trained shooter with a .22 LR handgun is more deadly than the typical gun owner with a .44 magnum or even a .50 BMG, just on accuracy and calm under pressure alone. Ignore the calibre and firepower fanatics, and focus on what is proven to work - training under as near to live-fire situations as you can get.
8. Keep in practise, study up on home defence drills, instruction etc. Call your local police and gun stores, NRA-certified instructors, get advice and do all the courses. If your local cops are decent, they may even send someone to take a look around your house and give you a home defence plan - you might be able to get one off-duty to advise you, for a modest fee. Get a CCW if legal in your state. Training is what saves lives, a weapon in untrained hands is as much of a liability as an asset. Doing some unarmed combat training is also useful, for weapon retention, getting to your gun/knife if surprised by an attacker, and so on. Also gets you into better shape and helps you fuck your woman better ;)
9. Defense - get a stab-resistant ballistic vest/jacket with rifle plates, and a quality helmet. Hang the jacket by your bed, and put it on as soon as you suspect intrusion. A good vest will stop almost all handgun and shotgun rounds (on the protected part), and many rifle rounds, and will resist most stabs and slashes from sharp objects. You and your wife/gf/kids wearing vests will massively increase survivability against armed intruders.
10. You are in the country which has the best self-defence, gun, and weapons rights in the world. It would be a dereliction of duty and a waste of that privilege if you did not adequately arm, train, and defend yourself, your family, and other innocent people. Self-defence is a fun hobby, a good way to meet cool people, and unlike most things people do in their spare time, it is highly productive and might one day save lives.
11. Join the NRA or whatever local pro-gun & knife/self-defence rights groups and training organisations that exist. All it takes is complacency and a few knee-jerk authoritarian politicians and public figureheads for those rights to disappear.
Quote from CaptainObvious:
Don't leave home without one. Keep your pistola's. Break into my house and you don't kill me with the first shot, and you probably won't, I'll be sending you straight to hell, and right quick.
The question of body armor is often overlooked in this type of discussion. While it is obviously ideal to have the sort of knife proof(most vests are not knife proof) ballistic armor Ghost of Cutten recommended, the fact is most of us aren't going to that level of expense. What worries me is an intruder wearing body armor, even if it is only a level II vest.
All the talk about using limp loads like a .38 special seems to me to go out the window if you're confronting an intruder with a vest. Any vest is going to stop a pistol round cold. If you see the intruder is armored, you might be able to hit an unprotected area, ie head or leg shot, but that is asking a lot.
This is where something like a .308 comes to the fore. Unless they are using ceramic plates,which are very expensive, a .308 will easily penetrate a ballistic vest. Of course, it will also penetrate the walls of your house, your neighbor's house and who knows what else.
My question is how do they hold up against shotgun loads? I would assume a vest would stop the .410 self defense loads and maybe 12 guage 00. Not sure if they can stop a 12 gauge slug, but I doubt it. Also, I'm pretty sure a load of 00 or a slug would put an attacker on his back, possibly with severe injuries, even if it didn't penetrate, from trauma.
Quote from Wayne Gibbous:
I don't even lock the doors at night...
Advice to bad guys: Don't break into Cutten's house - you'd be better off breaking into a Navy SEAL barracks!
Quote from Wayne Gibbous:
Advice to bad guys: Don't break into Cutten's house - you'd be better off breaking into a Navy SEAL barracks!
__________________
Every morning I get up and look
through the Forbes list of the richest
people in America. If I’m not there, I
go to work. — Robert Orben
You could use one of these:
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
The question of body armor is often overlooked in this type of discussion. While it is obviously ideal to have the sort of knife proof(most vests are not knife proof) ballistic armor Ghost of Cutten recommended, the fact is most of us aren't going to that level of expense. What worries me is an intruder wearing body armor, even if it is only a level II vest.
All the talk about using limp loads like a .38 special seems to me to go out the window if you're confronting an intruder with a vest. Any vest is going to stop a pistol round cold. If you see the intruder is armored, you might be able to hit an unprotected area, ie head or leg shot, but that is asking a lot.
This is where something like a .308 comes to the fore. Unless they are using ceramic plates,which are very expensive, a .308 will easily penetrate a ballistic vest. Of course, it will also penetrate the walls of your house, your neighbor's house and who knows what else.
My question is how do they hold up against shotgun loads? I would assume a vest would stop the .410 self defense loads and maybe 12 guage 00. Not sure if they can stop a 12 gauge slug, but I doubt it. Also, I'm pretty sure a load of 00 or a slug would put an attacker on his back, possibly with severe injuries, even if it didn't penetrate, from trauma.
Quote from Wayne Gibbous:
Geez, where do you live - Iraq???!!!
I don't even lock the doors at night...
__________________
"What the.....?"
I live in a safe area, but I must confess the "don't lock the doors" comment was a bit of hyperbole. I'd be a fool not to use door locks...
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:
An ex-gf of mine got stalked by her ex-husband, he was a pretty big and scary guy, and had attacked her once before, so I spent a lot of time looking into this stuff. That and I kinda enjoy it anyway, guns and knives are a fun hobby and might one day save your life.
Quote from Wayne Gibbous:
I live in a safe area, but I must confess the "don't lock the doors" comment was a bit of hyperbole. I'd be a fool not to use door locks...
I also have a few guns...1911A1 .45, S&W 9mm, 6 .22 target rifles/pistols, 8mm German auto (WWII), 12ga pump, 12ga double, .306, and a model 70 .375 H&H Mag with jacketed rounds - I don't think many vests will stop that bitch. Even if they do, I bet a few ribs will be broken...
Trouble is, with grandkids I have to keep it all locked up. In an emergency, with lights off etc, how do you get that gun safe open or trigger/cable lock off in time to nail the bad guys?
I also fool around with throwing knives. I set up a little "knife range" with measured distances and a big back stop. I'm not very good at it, but it is cool when I get one to stick just right, near the middle of a playing card. If you have never tried it, throwing knives is far different from the typical movie version...
Quote from Lucrum:
I can see you know about as much on handguns as you do where the price of gold is going.
.40 S&W is an excellent handgun cartridge.
Take it from someone who knows...
If you're sleeping and the perp is already in the room with you, in the dark crawling around on the floor looking to rape your old lady, and if that gun isn't there and ready to go WITHOUT some stupid safe contraption, you ARE at a disadvantage. You need to be alarmed prior to anyone even attempting to enter your home.
Otherwise you're sitting ducks
The necessity of locking your door is directly proportional to the size of your home.
From the way some of you guys are talking, there seems to be more hurdles and drawbacks to having a pistol as a home defense weapon than there are advantages. It sounds like pepper spray or something similar would be a much more practical home defense weapon than pistols, for both men and women.
All the macho hallucinating aside, with the electronics available at absurdly reasonable prices there's no reason anyone should be able to gain entrance to your house. Outside motion detectors with lights, properly placed with high resolution lipstick style cameras attached that display on normal tv/ monitor screens inside the house and record to hard drives are the first line of defense. Add to that a speaker system that you can program to say anything when an intruder is detected. Place a similar system inside that turns on every light inside the house whenever any motion is sensed. If your out of town an alarm can be e mailed and you can view the screen on a smart phone. Look into it , it's a better alternative to shooting it out with some turd in your bedroom. The real downside is that the turd may have a wacko relative that puts you on his hit list or something similar. Best course of action is always prevention of the event in the first place.
Quote from Baron:
From the way some of you guys are talking, there seems to be more hurdles and drawbacks to having a pistol as a home defense weapon than there are advantages. It sounds like pepper spray or something similar would be a much more practical home defense weapon than pistols, for both men and women.
I believe there's a use for a gun in specific situations during a home invasion but the actual event happens so fast that you have to think and plan ahead in order to avoid unseen complications. As an example, let's say that someone is in your room with you and has a gun and you also have a gun. Well, where are your kid's rooms located? Are they sleeping in them? Are their rooms in the line of fire? Lots to think about, be aware of, and prepare for.
There will never be a textbook situation.
Quote from Nostradamus357:
Take it from someone who knows...
If you're sleeping and the perp is already in the room with you, in the dark crawling around on the floor looking to rape your old lady, and if that gun isn't there and ready to go WITHOUT some stupid safe contraption, you ARE at a disadvantage. You need to be alarmed prior to anyone even attempting to enter your home.
Otherwise you're sitting ducks
Quote from Nostradamus357:
I believe there's a use for a gun in specific situations during a home invasion but the actual event happens so fast that you have to think and plan ahead in order to avoid unseen complications. As an example, let's say that someone is in your room with you and has a gun and you also have a gun. Well, where are your kid's rooms located? Are they sleeping in them? Are their rooms in the line of fire? Lots to think about, be aware of, and prepare for.
There will never be a textbook situation.
Quote from Baron:
From the way some of you guys are talking, there seems to be more hurdles and drawbacks to having a pistol as a home defense weapon than there are advantages. It sounds like pepper spray or something similar would be a much more practical home defense weapon than pistols, for both men and women.
Quote from Baron:
From the way some of you guys are talking, there seems to be more hurdles and drawbacks to having a pistol as a home defense weapon than there are advantages. It sounds like pepper spray or something similar would be a much more practical home defense weapon than pistols, for both men and women.
Quote from Baron:
From the way some of you guys are talking, there seems to be more hurdles and drawbacks to having a pistol as a home defense weapon than there are advantages. It sounds like pepper spray or something similar would be a much more practical home defense weapon than pistols, for both men and women.
Baron, just make sure you don't chase them, you might pull a muscle:
Alex Trebek Injures Leg While Chasing Burglar
"It happened at 2:30 a.m., chasing a burglar down the hallway of my San Francisco hotel when my Achilles tendon ruptured and I then fell on carpet, bruising the other leg in process," Trebek, 70, explains"
"Police confirmed to the San Francisco Chronicle that a hotel guest had in fact woke up early Wednesday to find somebody in the room, then gave chase. Police didn't identify the victim or the hotel, but said the victim was injured.
A 56-year-old woman was apprehended by hotel security and booked by police for investigation of burglary and receiving stolen property."
Quote from Baron:
Wow. Great feedback so far. Thanks so much guys!!
I should mention that I'm not a fan of buying cheap equipment for pretty much any purpose. So I don't mind making the investment in something that has exceptional design, quality and performance.
Also, I have quite a bit of experience with firearms in general. I had a .410 shotgun as a kid that I would use for squirrel hunting after school. I shot my first 12 gauge at the age of 7 trying to shoot skeet with my dad (almost broke my nose doing it, LOL). And even during the family holiday gatherings, our entertainment after the big meal was going out back and target shooting a variety of rifles and pistols. But the issue is I left that world behind once I moved from the country to a major metropolitan city. Fast forward 20 years and I feel completely out of the loop.
But with that said, I will still get some training for both myself and my wife. Aside from the self defense aspect, it sounds like target shooting would interesting hobby anyway. It never hurts to have additional purchase excuses for the wife
__________________
murray t turtle,nickname,not an alias
Whatever you end up with Baron, DYODD.
Deodorant works as well as pepper spray, (I recommend rexona sport) , martial arts should not be overlooked, and attempting to do anything much in pitch black, drowsy, sleepy, unaware, with a firearm or without, is fraught with danger, no matter which way you slice it.
Or not slice it, as the case may be.
Nasty shit to have to legitimately consider, so good luck.
__________________
"What the.....?"
now i feel i need to get a piece too.
Quote from Wayne Gibbous:
I live in a safe area, but I must confess the "don't lock the doors" comment was a bit of hyperbole. I'd be a fool not to use door locks...
I also have a few guns...1911A1 .45, S&W 9mm, 6 .22 target rifles/pistols, 8mm German auto (WWII), 12ga pump, 12ga double, .306, and a model 70 .375 H&H Mag with jacketed rounds - I don't think many vests will stop that bitch. Even if they do, I bet a few ribs will be broken...
Trouble is, with grandkids I have to keep it all locked up. In an emergency, with lights off etc, how do you get that gun safe open or trigger/cable lock off in time to nail the bad guys?
I also fool around with throwing knives. I set up a little "knife range" with measured distances and a big back stop. I'm not very good at it, but it is cool when I get one to stick just right, near the middle of a playing card. If you have never tried it, throwing knives is far different from the typical movie version...
Quote from Banjo:
All the macho hallucinating aside, with the electronics available at absurdly reasonable prices there's no reason anyone should be able to gain entrance to your house. Outside motion detectors with lights, properly placed with high resolution lipstick style cameras attached that display on normal tv/ monitor screens inside the house and record to hard drives are the first line of defense. Add to that a speaker system that you can program to say anything when an intruder is detected. Place a similar system inside that turns on every light inside the house whenever any motion is sensed. If your out of town an alarm can be e mailed and you can view the screen on a smart phone. Look into it , it's a better alternative to shooting it out with some turd in your bedroom. The real downside is that the turd may have a wacko relative that puts you on his hit list or something similar. Best course of action is always prevention of the event in the first place.
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:
Hehe, nice collection. Anyway, funny timing but the London riots showed that you can never be too prepared. If even just one citizen on each street had come out with a long gun and aimed it at anyone trying to destroy or loot property, or attack people, the riots would have been over in a few hours.
Or you can handle it like they do in the 'hood
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PiinCXu7xU
Quote from byteme:
What makes you think the rioters wouldn't also have had guns in your fairy-tale scenario?
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:
Basic knowledge of London and the UK? Doh.
yadda yadda. Show me some cases of UK rioters toting long guns and shooting people with rifle rounds.
Quote from byteme:
Your basic knowledge of London and the UK is obviously zero then.
I'm going to a gun show next weekend, and I will likely come home a couple pistols. A revolver for my wife and a 1911 for myself. I will evaluate shot guns at that time as well.
Quote from Baron:
I'm going to a gun show next weekend, and I will likely come home a couple pistols. A revolver for my wife and a 1911 for myself. I will evaluate shot guns at that time as well.
Quote from Lucrum:
I haven't been to a gun show in years. You'll certainly have plenty to see and hold to try on for size. I've heard that prices tend to be marked up at shows though in contrast to years past. (not that you can't afford it) Not so much for home defense but for concealed carry I'm getting a Colt New Agent, which is a 1911 with a 3" barrel, any day now.
Quote from LEAPup:
Kimber is amazing
For all interested, this guy does an excellent job of video reviewing and shooting all types of hand guns, rifles, shotguns and military guns.
Very knowledgeable and includes a lot of historic info.
http://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45/videos
Quote from Lucrum:
Actually a 3" Kimber was originally my first choice. After some more research I settled on the Colt. I may add Crimson laser grips to it later depending on how well I adapt to the trench sight on the Colt.
if you are worried about getting home invaded or riot jacked, why screw around with anything less? Handguns are a waste of time.
If we're talking 1911's, has anyone brought up Les Baer? Definitely the best 1911 manufacturer out there.
There's a-whole-nother tier of manufacturers above Kimber, both in quality and customer service...but to save you some time, just look up Les Baer and STI.
http://www.lesbaer.com
http://www.stiguns.com/guns/guns.php
I'll be getting another one soon:
http://www.lesbaer.com/TRS.html
Quote from marketsurfer:
if you are worried about getting home invaded or riot jacked, why screw around with anything less? Handguns are a waste of time.
"63-year-old holds off robber with rear naked choke"
http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/blog/ca...?urn=mma-wp5794
__________________
"You have to fix your roof when it's sunny outside" - JFK
Quote from AMBRITCapital:
If we're talking 1911's, has anyone brought up Les Baer? Definitely the best 1911 manufacturer out there.
There's a-whole-nother tier of manufacturers above Kimber, both in quality and customer service...but to save you some time, just look up Les Baer and STI.
Quote from Magna:
While Kimber makes an excellent 1911 there is a whole category above that of incredibly fine made, hand crafted and fitted 1911's. If you want the very best you cannot go wrong with the following manufacturers (each costing more than twice what many Kimbers will set you back):
Les Baer www.lesbaer.com
Ed Brown www.edbrown.com
Nighthawk www.nighthawkcustom.com
Wilson www.wilsoncombat.com
Quote from acronym:
Whatever you end up with Baron, DYODD.
...and attempting to do anything much in pitch black, drowsy, sleepy, unaware, with a firearm or without, is fraught with danger, no matter which way you slice it.
Or not slice it, as the case may be.
__________________
murray t turtle,nickname,not an alias
Quote from murray t turtle:
=============
Actually having shot a gun for almost 50 years ;
some @ night,
@ star light nite,
@ full moon night.
@partial moon light. It is fraught with danger- but mostly for the rioter or robber on my private property.
I am talking about an intruder stupidly coming on my private property @ night.Someone awake[adrenalin does that] who can hit a squirrels head; the human
heart lung area target is plenty big.
Head shots are deadly, some squirrel shooters/snipers do that ;
but most military & police usually go for center mass[heart lung]
Semi -automtics [shotgun rifle, pistol];are real fun, mostly what i own;
but target shooting in AUG, a Ruger stainless steel ,22 was typical with 48 hollow point rounds fired, 2 rounds jammed.
__________________
"What the.....?"
Quote from acronym:
I understand what you are saying murray, It's just large as to the what, why, and the wherefores of a modern day firearm purchase. The choice is utterly bewilderingly, depending on where you live, and what is legal.
.
I stopped, & heard that trespasser, in my basement!. ;__________________
murray t turtle,nickname,not an alias
Interesting links
http://www.pointshooting.com/1asop9.htm
http://www.pointshooting.com/1nosight.htm
http://www.pointshooting.com/1astasch.htm
http://www.pointshooting.com/1acar.htm
http://www.pointshooting.com/1afast.htm
http://www.pointshooting.com/1awhycar.htm
Quote from Baron:
From the way some of you guys are talking, there seems to be more hurdles and drawbacks to having a pistol as a home defense weapon than there are advantages. It sounds like pepper spray or something similar would be a much more practical home defense weapon than pistols, for both men and women.
__________________
"Those that know ain't saying, and those saying don't know." - E. A. Neumann
A bear since 1958 and proud of it.
There is so much bad advice here that I couldn't bring myself to read every post. So excuse me if someone had said it already. I am a gun nut and have so fucking many in so many calibres that I couldn't tell you how many I have without taking inventory. Been a shooter since I was eight. Know pretty much all non-full auto weapons capabilities. Some observations:
1. If Barron doesn't live in a REALLY gun friendly state, he shouldn't buy one. Fucking liberals will crucify him if he ever uses it.
2. Barron probably has no fucking business with a gun if he didn't grow up with guns (I'm guessing he's late 30's?)
3. Owning a gun is a commitment to competence, somewhat like owning a car. You don't leave it in the garage and drive once a year.
4. For defense in the middle of the night, out of over 20 handguns to choose from, I keep a Bersa .380 ACP Thunder Plus pistol in my nightstand. 15 rounds plus one in the pipe, won't deafen you permanently if you have to use it inside, light recoil for fast accurate shooting. Latest study shows shot placement is everything, be it .22 LR to .44 magnum, equally effective. One to the head or two to the torso. Sometimes I even carry it in lieu of my Springfield Armory XD(m) 13+1 .45.
5. If he lives in a concealed carry state, she should get a CHL and pack all day every day.
6. Or he could just fucking move to Texas.
P.S.: What about the wife? Mine stole my first Bersa after test firing everything I have. It's in HER nightstand.
__________________
"Those argent Fields more likely habitants"
Quote from Argent:
There is so much bad advice here that I couldn't bring myself to read every post. So excuse me if someone had said it already. I am a gun nut and have so fucking many in so many calibres that I couldn't tell you how many I have without taking inventory. Been a shooter since I was eight. Know pretty much all non-full auto weapons capabilities. Some observations:
1. If Barron doesn't live in a REALLY gun friendly state, he shouldn't buy one. Fucking liberals will crucify him if he ever uses it.
2. Barron probably has no fucking business with a gun if he didn't grow up with guns (I'm guessing he's late 30's?)
3. Owning a gun is a commitment to competence, somewhat like owning a car. You don't leave it in the garage and drive once a year.
4. For defense in the middle of the night, out of over 20 handguns to choose from, I keep a Bersa .380 ACP Thunder Plus pistol in my nightstand. 15 rounds plus one in the pipe, won't deafen you permanently if you have to use it inside, light recoil for fast accurate shooting. Latest study shows shot placement is everything, be it .22 LR to .44 magnum, equally effective. One to the head or two to the torso. Sometimes I even carry it in lieu of my Springfield Armory XD(m) 13+1 .45.
5. If he lives in a concealed carry state, she should get a CHL and pack all day every day.
6. Or he could just fucking move to Texas.
P.S.: What about the wife? Mine stole my first Bersa after test firing everything I have. It's in HER nightstand.
:
In the better parts of Texas, you come up behind someone, and the pull over in the gravel to let you pass so both parties can be on their way.
Re: Advice on buying some Pistols
Quote from Baron:
So I'm talking with an acquaintance of mine that I haven't seen in years and he tells me the story about how his life has been a living hell since the last time I saw him. In short, a couple guys broke into his house, tied him up, and the raped his girlfriend in front of him. He had no weapons in the house.
His story has been on my mind so much recently that I've been seriously entertaining the idea of getting a couple pistols, one for myself, and one for my wife in the event I'm not around. The problem is that the pistol market is so vast that I'm not sure where to start. It seems like Kimber is the Rolls-Royce of the pistol market, but I'm not sure I NEED that level simply for self defense purposes.
Anybody experienced in this field have some advice or recommendations??
Quote from LEAPup:
Without any foul language on my part
1. Would you rather be tried by twelve or carried by six?
2. He can't learn? Oh wow! I am a former Police Officer, former NRA Firearms Instructor, etc., while paying my way through college a few lol years ago. I've taught people in their 60's how to clear their house in a break in situation with great results. It's about tactics, trigger control, and sight alignment under stress. He can train to deal with the stress if he's serious. The Marine Corps told us, "when the shit hits the fan, you'll snap in, and your training will take over." They were right...
3. They say "practice makes perfect." That's wrong! PERFECT practice makes perfect.
4. As for weapon of choice, that's just like trading: find what works for your personality. People will argue all day about which rounds, which handgun, rifle, shotgun, are the best. It really gets down to finding what fits you.
5. Depends. I recommend carrying a ccw being comfortable with it. However, if he needs to go in a bamk, school, or any place that has a sign prohibiting weapons carried in, he needs a place in the car to put the pistol, knowing it's safe there, and accessable when needed.
6. Texas is the last REAL part of America. Miss living there. Where I live now, you come up behind someone on the interstate, and they want to hit the brakes.
Last, I recommend Glock as I've used one as a Police Officer, and it did what it was meant to do with no malfunction worries on my part. Kimber is top notch, Les Baer, etc., all top notch. For someone who's just entering the semi-auto home/self defense market, I'd say go with Glock for the reliability, practicality, ammuntion capacity, and pricing.
__________________
"Those argent Fields more likely habitants"
Re: Advice on buying some Pistols
Quote from Baron:
So I'm talking with an acquaintance of mine that I haven't seen in years and he tells me the story about how his life has been a living hell since the last time I saw him. In short, a couple guys broke into his house, tied him up, and the raped his girlfriend in front of him. He had no weapons in the house.
His story has been on my mind so much recently that I've been seriously entertaining the idea of getting a couple pistols, one for myself, and one for my wife in the event I'm not around. The problem is that the pistol market is so vast that I'm not sure where to start. It seems like Kimber is the Rolls-Royce of the pistol market, but I'm not sure I NEED that level simply for self defense purposes.
Anybody experienced in this field have some advice or recommendations??
Anyone gonna be in Vegas later this week? I'll be driving out to the desert to bust some caps Friday and or Saturday.
A really good article on selection of self defense ammunition.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm
Quote from Lucrum:
A really good article on selection of self defense ammunition.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm
lol but we at least agree on the above.
Quote from LEAPup:
When I was a Police Officer paying my way through College, I was involved in a shooting. "Back then," we were issued Winchester Black Talons for our Glock 21 .45
The Author says that hollow point rounds stay in the person, and that wasn't the case in this incident, but I do agree with what he's trying to say. I certainly agree with: "Save the 230 grain ball (FMJ) loads for practice; carry FMJ ammo only if you must because your gun jams with hollowpoints. The Llama, Federal Ordnance, AMT, and Auto-Ordnance M1911A1 copies often jam with anything except 230 grain ball. Never compromise when it comes to reliability: if your gun only feeds ball, then ball is what you carry."
These days, I carry Winchester Ranger 230 grain in my Kimber as they're the "Black Talon" rounds without the black paint. I've seen what they can do, and they do work... One thing the Author really needs to point out imo is SHOT PLACEMENT. That's THE single most important factor for stopping the fight quickly.
The .45 is the absolute best combat round imo that has ever been produced for CQB, I've actually used it, and is about all I carry. I'll have to laugh a little though as every police department in my area is carrying either .40S&W or .45ACP with up to four magazines vs. two spares when I did the job. When I went through the State Police Academy, and for the first eight months out, we still carried the .357 Magnum before transitioning over to the .45. At that time, we had six rounds ready, and two hks speedloaders on duty belt (12rounds) that was it. That was all we had... Guess I'm giving away my age?
There's a small town officer in my area who likes a wheelgun, and still carries a S&W 4" 686 .357 Magnum and two speed loaders. He's the unlucky guy who over the last 21 years has shot three people. All three died on the scene. The last time I spoke with him at the range, we talked about shot placement, and both agree that it's 100% about where you put the rounds vs. what you're carrying. We both fight over the .45 and .357 mag to a degree,
Quote from Lucrum:
Interesting.
I believe the author does stress shot placement in that article. And while he thinks highly of the .45 and carries one himself he hinted that the .357 might be a marginally better self defense round.
From one of the other links I posted earlier, the average number of rounds fired in a close quarter situation is 2.6, and about the only time reloading (let alone speed reloading) was an issue was during incidents involving a siege or suppressive fire. Which most armed civilians would not get involved with obviously.
I want to get out the AR-15, AK, and my full auto Thompson that accepts the 50 round drums. Yes, I paid a "little bit" for the Thompson but it's FUN, FUN, FUN! I also have two 1911's that were customized by one of the best USMC armorers I have ever met. At 25 yards, you can cover the group with a silver dollar.
Quote from LEAPup:
I'll say the .45 and .357 Magnum are still on the top of my list for CQB rounds. I love shooting the .500 S&W Magnum, but it's for Kodiak bears, not people. Lol
Btw, I saw where you wanted to shoot over the weekend. Sounds like you live in CA, and drive to the desert to shoot? If you're ever on the east coast, pm me. I love the smell of gunpowder in the mornings!
44 mag w/wad cutters. the most powerful handgun in the World. Blow your head clean off..do you feel lucky..well do ya..punk!
Quote from LEAPup:
...These days, I carry Winchester Ranger 230 grain in my Kimber as they're the "Black Talon" rounds without the black paint.
. The modern day version, without the black coating, is the Winchester Ranger Bonded PDX1 (available in 9mm, .38 Special, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP) and it's the primary service round used by the FBI.
I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908 [by an Indian extremist opposed to Gandhi's agreement with Smuts], whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defend me, I told him it was his duty to defend me even by using violence. Hence it was that I took part in the Boer War, the so-called Zulu Rebellion and [World War I]. Hence also do I advocate training in arms for those who believe in the method of violence. I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honor than that she should in a cowardly manner become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonor. — Mohandas K. Gandhi, Young India, August 11, 1920
Quote from jimbo555:
44 mag w/wad cutters. the most powerful handgun in the World. Blow your head clean off..do you feel lucky..well do ya..punk!
Got my brand new in the box Colt New Agent today. It sure is an attractive weapon.
"When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away." - Philip Van Cleave
I was in a home invasion when young, friend's dad was shot.
Can't imagine your friend's experience seeing that, I would rather fight and be killed than to go through something like that.
Dog number one, man's best friend.
I like pitbulls. Female, males protect property, females protect YOU.
Any terrier is a handful and they are fast, and
you can get them to be pretty mean pretty easily.
Gun. Hammerless revolver for concealment.
Shotgun good loaded with light shot so it doesn't go through light drywall,
and kill your friends, family etc.
Semi auto with a 30 round clip if you can't shoot good.
None of this means anything if you are not aware of your surroundings at all times.
Quote from Got Franklins:
This is badass. You should get this gun with that suit. You have to make the belt match the gun's finish.
Quote from jimbo555:
44 mag w/wad cutters. the most powerful handgun in the World. Blow your head clean off..do you feel lucky..well do ya..punk!
That's good advice for home defense if you are not an experienced gun user. Revolvers have several advantages over semi's:
Quote from Lucrum:
If your new to firearms seriously consider getting some instruction. Shooting yourself or someone else unintended kinda defeats the whole purpose.
If you're dead set on a handgun and you don't plan on using it with any regularity consider a revolver. They are somewhat less likely to jam and there is no magazine spring to weaken over time. Not to mention a gun novice trying to unjam a semi auto in "the heat of the moment" could again defeat the whole purpose.
You may also want to consider a short shotgun. While not as easy to wield indoors as a handgun you're less like to shoot yourself with it, the shot has less penetration than bullets reducing the risk of collateral damage and the sound of chambering a round alone may very well prevent you from having to spill some assholes blood and guts all over your expensive floor.
Quote from J Ski:
I was in a home invasion when young, friend's dad was shot.
Can't imagine your friend's experience seeing that, I would rather fight and be killed than to go through something like that.
Dog number one, man's best friend.
I like pitbulls. Female, males protect property, females protect YOU.
Any terrier is a handful and they are fast, and
you can get them to be pretty mean pretty easily.
Gun. Hammerless revolver for concealment.
Shotgun good loaded with light shot so it doesn't go through light drywall,
and kill your friends, family etc.
Semi auto with a 30 round clip if you can't shoot good.
None of this means anything if you are not aware of your surroundings at all times.
Put over 200 rounds through my Colt New Agent this morning.
No malfunctions. That trench sight is going to take getting used to but then again in most shootings the sights are never used anyway.
I spent about half the time practicing a quick point and shoot.
I'm definitely going to add the laser sight grips.
Quote from drillmega:
Great suggestion here. My wife hates dogs, but I basically told her that this dog might be the only thing that stands between her and an unfortunate situation like what the original poster is talking about.
The one thing I want to talk about , is that handguns are good for close quarters, etc, etc, but, they file a single bullet. Think: its probably night-time, the house is dark, you file a single shot and you miss, and the assailant now has a second chance.
I would highly, highly recommend a Mossberg 500 with simple buckshot. Every single want-to-be rapist/burgler knows the sound of a shotgun cocking a shell, and I tell you what, you have a better chance protecting your wife and your home shooting into the dark with a buckshot than a single bullet.
The reason I say a Mossberg 500, is because they're small and tactical, dont think of a hunting shotgun, which have very long and cumbersome barrels. Mossbergs are what the police use when securing locations inside buildings.
Another thing is that you wife will have no problem shooting a Mossberg with simple birdshot in it, it doesnt kick any more than a decent handgun. Take lessons, learn to use it, and be prepared so that you dont have to have a story like your friend does.
Quote from Lucrum:
Put over 200 rounds through my Colt New Agent this morning.
No malfunctions. That trench sight is going to take getting used to but then again in most shootings the sights are never used anyway.
I spent about half the time practicing a quick point and shoot.
I'm definitely going to add the laser sight grips.
Making the bedroom a safe room like a vault isn't very expensive. Gassing the intruders with nitrous oxide from the safe room is very cheap and simple. Then you can wait for the police to arrive, or come out of the safe room and finish them off legally as they wake up with your weapon of choice, that is if you enjoy legal murder and have a good lawyer.
Quote from LEAPup:
Did she ever think that when a dog barks in a different way than the dog normally does, to get the guns out from under the bed? Does she know how to handle a 12g with 00 buckshot when it counts? Have you trained her in that regard? My Wife thought I was a nut until one of her "Friends" was stabbed to death with a kitchen knife...
I understand what you mean about being a nutcase, but after we started having kids, her demeanor changed pretty quick.
Quote from Lucrum:
Put over 200 rounds through my Colt New Agent this morning.
No malfunctions. That trench sight is going to take getting used to but then again in most shootings the sights are never used anyway.
I spent about half the time practicing a quick point and shoot.
I'm definitely going to add the laser sight grips.
Baron was going to a gun show. Did he ever buy anything?
Quote from drillmega:
...My wife hates dogs...
Quote from BSAM:
I highly recommend getting rid of her. There's something fundamentally wrong with people who don't love dogs.
Sorry, didn't mean to abandon this conversation,
but I've been on a mission to learn how to make money,
buy low sell high etc.
So, again. to reiterate. Having been there. I have shared the story with some friends, that are gun enthusiasts. Answer to me" Well if that was me, I'd have gotten a gun and shot them". Then the debate shifts from attitude to what kind of gun.Some people I've talked to don't believe me when I tell them about what happened either. Anyhow,I don't share it so much anymore,
What happened to your acquaintence, is still something I can't get my mind around, and it is painful to think about. Interferes with my quest to stay focused and positive in trying to steal some money from this market.
Can you imagine, if this was your daughter, your mom, or even your friend that got raped?
That's what you have to ask yourself.
Ouch.
Read some Sun Tzu.
One of his quotes, something about unexpected events. I don't have them memorized but it's online. Applies to stocks too,I guess, just haven't figured out how yet.
Shotgun. Don't have one.I practiced 2 months ago. Don't need one.
Forgot to mention, hollowpoint, somebody already suggested that.
44, Dirty Harry, that's a movie. Most important thing is you are not going to be, coming up with silly movie lines when the shit hits the fan. You are going to be a shaking, cursing, mind fucked,adrenaline surging mess, head spinning, why is this happening to me, state of confusion.
Don't assume help is coming in time.
Dog, first line of defense at home.
Any dog, remember the little yap-yaps.
Understand, they will shoot the dog, gives you time to think.
Early warning to maybe get head clear, maybe not.
Quote from BSAM:
I highly recommend getting rid of her. There's something fundamentally wrong with people who don't love dogs.
Quote from Lucrum:
Baron was going to a gun show. Did he ever buy anything?
Quote from BSAM:
I highly recommend getting rid of her. There's something fundamentally wrong with people who don't love dogs.
Quote from Baron:
So with that said, I am buying a pistol today and here it is!
Quote from Lucrum:
Why, is getting raped in a bad neighborhood somehow different from getting raped in a good one?
Re: Advice on buying some Pistols
Quote from Baron:
So I'm talking with an acquaintance of mine that I haven't seen in years and he tells me the story about how his life has been a living hell since the last time I saw him. In short, a couple guys broke into his house, tied him up, and the raped his girlfriend in front of him. He had no weapons in the house.
His story has been on my mind so much recently that I've been seriously entertaining the idea of getting a couple pistols, one for myself, and one for my wife in the event I'm not around. The problem is that the pistol market is so vast that I'm not sure where to start. It seems like Kimber is the Rolls-Royce of the pistol market, but I'm not sure I NEED that level simply for self defense purposes.
Anybody experienced in this field have some advice or recommendations??
It is unwise to engage in a possible gun fight inside the home. It is more unwise to do so with a handgun. Handguns are for carry, not for home defense, imo. If you plan to actually engage an intruder inside your home, get an AK47 at least or a tactical shotgun. You must fire first and last. It is not to be a 'fair fight'. IMO.
It is more important to have a proper advance warning alarm and monitoring, so you have plenty time to protect and prepare.
Quote from drillmega:
Shes like little cats and the ridiculous tiny dogs, which are absolutely worthless. Tiny dogs are only good as a moving tripping mechanism, and cats are ridiculous.
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:
What is that 'fundamentally wrong' thing? Not everyone likes furry, smelly 4-legged animals that slobber everywhere. Also, you should know that 9 out of 10 attractive women prefer cats over dogs.
So now this is an advice on buying some pets thread?
Quote from Baron:
...Man, the second I picked that baby up at the gun show, I knew it was the ONE!...
Quote from Baron:
I already know this won't be my last gun purchase. I've already got my eye on a .380 carry pistol with laser sights.
Quote from Lucrum:
So now this is an advice on buying some pets thread?
You're drinking too much coffee, Lukie.
I don't remember if I posted these or not but they're helpful in knowing the widely varying laws, especially if you travel.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/
http://opencarry.org/opencarry.html
Quote from BSAM:
You're drinking too much coffee, Lukie.
Quote from Lucrum:
I don't drink the stuff.
Baron, here's the next step:
You now must practice this line over and over, till you sound really convincing:
Make my day, punk.
http://www.nssf.org/share/BP2/2006/060506.htm?AoI=media
Quote from Baron:
I went to the gun show, but I didn't buy anything mainly because several people PM'd me and said not to impulse buy. I definitely learned a lot at the gun show and I handled a ton of pistols that day. I went to the show with a friend of mine, and he said, "You'll instantly know when you find the right gun for you. It'll just feel better than anything else you've held."
So before I tell you what I picked, here are a couple things I learned at the gun show:
1. There are a LOT of shitty guns out there.
2. I do not like the feel of polymer guns.... at all.
3. There are a ton of thugs buying pistols, which made me want to arm myself even more.
So with that said, I am buying a pistol today and here it is!
Man, the second I picked that baby up at the gun show, I knew it was the ONE!
Now there were definitely some other ones that I liked. For example, this one was a very close second place for me.
I already know this won't be my last gun purchase. I've already got my eye on a .380 carry pistol with laser sights.
I know the Ruger mini-14 cannot match up to an Ar-platform in accuracy, but their new mini-30 caught my attention as an excellent home defense weapon. It's a 16 inch barrel, garand action, 20 or 30 round mag. They don't seem to offer it in a true tac version with a folding stock, pistol grip and rails, but they have that in the 5.56 version, so it should only be a matter of time before it's available on the big piece.
You can argue all you want about various handguns, but no one will dispute that 20 rounds of 7.62 in a carbine is vastly superior. Plus, if you don't want to shoot them, a buttstroke to the head will get their attention.
The beauty of a 7.62 is it will totally defeat body armor up to ceramic plate armor. It will also shoot through a car body, windshield etc, a thick door or a wall.
http://www.ruger.com/products/miniThirty/models.html
This weapon is <$1000. I can buy this and the Stoeger double shotgun for what the kimber costs. You would pay this much for an Arsenal AK, and while an AK looks cool, it's inaccurate and shoots an inferior load.
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
... inaccurate and shoots an inferior load.
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
The beauty of a 7.62 is it will totally defeat body armor up to ceramic plate armor. It will also shoot through a car body, windshield etc, a thick door or a wall.
Quote from Baron:
Exactly, which is why I would never have that as a home defense weapon. The last thing I want is to fire at an intruder only to find that I've not only hit him, but also my kid in the next room.
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
I'm not sure what is the best combination of stopping power versus over penetration.
If its strickly for home use just get a 12 gauge and use slugs.
For one, as soon as the asshole hears you pump the shotgun he is going to get out as quickly as possible. If he sticks around, good luck to him because 12 gauge slugs are nasty.
The one downside to the slugs are if you shoot him in the head, you are going to have one hell of a mess to clean up.
Quote from Baron:
I am buying a pistol today and here it is!
I already know this won't be my last gun purchase. I've already got my eye on a .380 carry pistol with laser sights.
"3. Beretta 92FS (M9): Haggle Price $560-$590
Great performance on the range. This is a man's pistol. A true warrior that replaced the 45 ACP 1911 service pistol. The Beretta M9 (or 92FS) is the most tested pistol since the M1911-A1. Used by the U.S. Military and thousands of poilce officers. Beretta 92 pistols with over 75,000 rounds have been reported. This solid designed pistol is what replaced so many police revolvers. Nothing shoots better than a well used Beretta 92FS. Allow about 300 rounds for break-in. Good long range pistol. I can hit the 50 yard gong over and over again. Easy to find magazines and holsters for this popular gun. The Italian made ones are tight! See the new 92-A1 with 1913 Picatinny rail. "
I would go with the hollow point silver tip bullets since they will break up in the body and cause stopping power. You don't need a bullet to travel through the bad guy and pass out the window and hit some kid.
A long time ago someone broke into my place and broke my hand with a weapon. I was living in a 2 story building, and my gun was upstairs. So you really need to make sure that you have it close at hand where you can get to it, or buy more than one gun since it does no good if its not at hand. If it was at hand, I would not have had a broken hand trust me. By the way, the police never caught them.
For the car, I would recommend just some pepper spray that you can keep with you. Also, if you plan on walking somewhere dangerous, pepper spay can be kept in your pocket, and is better than a knife since you don't need to get close to someone to use it.
Quote from oraclewizard77:
"3. Beretta 92FS (M9): Haggle Price $560-$590
For the street/point blank confrontation (atm robbery attempt as example) , a hammerless .357 revolver will also shoot .38 special rounds and can be fired from inside a pocket or purse. All the perp will see is your hand in a pocket and not know your finger is on a trigger. The .38 round has less kick and is more controllable and with a hollowpoint it will go in like a dime and come out like a cash register. Hammerless is key here for obvious reasons. It wont snag on clothing material or anything loose in a purse. 2nd, the gun will never need to be shown which puts the surprise element in your favor.
Quote from Lucrum:
Shotgun
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
00 buckshot or a slug will penetrate several layers of drywall. As will a .45, .357 mag or 9 mill.
5.56 will not, because it shoots such a small slug, but you lose stopping power.
It's all about tradeoffs.
Quote from Nostradamus357:
For the street/point blank confrontation (atm robbery attempt as example) , a hammerless .357 revolver will also shoot .38 special rounds and can be fired from inside a pocket or purse. All the perp will see is your hand in a pocket and not know your finger is on a trigger. The .38 round has less kick and is more controllable and with a hollowpoint it will go in like a dime and come out like a cash register. Hammerless is key here for obvious reasons. It wont snag on clothing material or anything loose in a purse. 2nd, the gun will never need to be shown which puts the surprise element in your favor.
Quote from Lucrum:
I have to admit I'm surprised to hear 5.56 mm won't penetrate drywall.
Speaking of bullet penetration this CEO has brass balls.
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
Ruger offers a .357 mag in a small, hammerless snubbie. I have to wonder what the recoil would be, particularly if you are shooting it out of your pocket or a purse where you don't have a good grip. http://ruger.com/products/lcr/models.html
Still, this is the most bang for size you will get. I'd hate to have to shoot it inside a car with no ear protection though.
Quote from Max E. Pad:
Speaking of bullet penetration this CEO has brass balls.
don't know much about guns but a customer on my paper route used to load shot gun shells with rock salt,they won't kill you but will burn like crazy in 100 spots
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
00 buckshot or a slug will penetrate several layers of drywall. As will a .45, .357 mag or 9 mill.
5.56 will not, because it shoots such a small slug, but you lose stopping power.
It's all about tradeoffs.
So I went to Outdoor World yesterday to get some ammo for my Kimber 1911, but to my surprise, there were literally 40 people in front of me at the counter. The salespeople were issuing numbers to everybody for a waiting list like it was a deli counter at at the grocery store. I promptly left when I saw that debacle.
There has to be a better way to buy ammo. Any insight?
Quote from Baron:
So I went to Outdoor World yesterday to get some ammo for my Kimber 1911, but to my surprise, there were literally 40 people in front of me at the counter. The salespeople were issuing numbers to everybody for a waiting list like it was a deli counter at at the grocery store. I promptly left when I saw that debacle.
There has to be a better way to buy ammo. Any insight?
Quote from Baron:
So I went to Outdoor World yesterday to get some ammo for my Kimber 1911, but to my surprise, there were literally 40 people in front of me at the counter. The salespeople were issuing numbers to everybody for a waiting list like it was a deli counter at at the grocery store. I promptly left when I saw that debacle.
There has to be a better way to buy ammo. Any insight?
Quote from Lucrum:
I just ordered some online.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/Item....aspx?catid=104
Quote from Lucrum:
There are others of course.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/SearchResults.aspx
http://www.gunsamerica.com/Search/C.../Ammunition.htm
Quote from morganist:
...one thing I respect about you is that you are a mans man...
Quote from Baron:
...There has to be a better way to buy ammo. Any insight?
Ok, looking at the links that have been posted, there seems to be a ton of choices when it comes to ammo. So narrow it down for me. Knowing what gun I have, what brand and grain/type of ammo should I go with for practicing at the range? I don't care about the home defense ammo yet because I need to get my shit together at the range first.
Quote from Baron:
Ok, looking at the links that have been posted, there seems to be a ton of choices when it comes to ammo. So narrow it down for me. Knowing what gun I have, what brand and grain/type of ammo should I go with for practicing at the range? I don't care about the home defense ammo yet because I need to get my shit together at the range first.
Some .45s wil jam with hollow points. They were originally designed to fire only full metal jacket, ie ball, ammo. A gunsmith can remedy the problem by machining the feed ramp, ie the part the shell slides on when it transitions from the mag to the chamber. Most high end 1911's today come with a feed ramp that will handle hollow points, but I would certainly want to fire a lot of them through the gun at the range to make sure.
The problem with using ball ammo as a home defense load is our old bugaboo, overpenetration. A full metal jacket round will tend to penetrate more than a hollow point.
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
Some .45s wil jam with hollow points. They were originally designed to fire only full metal jacket, ie ball, ammo. A gunsmith can remedy the problem by machining the feed ramp, ie the part the shell slides on when it transitions from the mag to the chamber. Most high end 1911's today come with a feed ramp that will handle hollow points, but I would certainly want to fire a lot of them through the gun at the range to make sure.
The problem with using ball ammo as a home defense load is our old bugaboo, overpenetration. A full metal jacket round will tend to penetrate more than a hollow point.
Quote from Wallet:
Standard 230 grain Ball ammo. Hollow points will tend to jam, you can have the port polished which will help with this issue is you fell the need to load HP's. I have had jamming issues using 185 grain ball with mine, Kimber (custom classic, series 1), don't really understand the reasons I just know I have to load 230 ball for optimal performance, probably has something to do with my grip.
Also, use Kimber mags.
Never really thought I'd ever need a gun. Now I'm thinking, it never hurts to be well protected. As long as I know how to work the safety and I don't play around at inapropriate times... should be fine right?
Thanks for the info everybody. I just bought 1000 rounds of 230 gr FMJ from luckygunner.com.
Quote from wolfpack:
Never really thought I'd ever need a gun. Now I'm thinking, it never hurts to be well protected. As long as I know how to work the safety and I don't play around at inapropriate times... should be fine right?
Quote from Baron:
... I just bought 1000 rounds of 230 gr FMJ...
Quote from wolfpack:
Never really thought I'd ever need a gun. Now I'm thinking, it never hurts to be well protected. As long as I know how to work the safety and I don't play around at inapropriate times... should be fine right?
Which Kimber model did you wind up with Baron?
I bought this one about a year ago- http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911/c...s-pro-tle-rl-ii
Sweet! I ended up with http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911/e...e-pro-target-ii
Good choice Baron, steel frame and slide rather than the aluminum frame with steel slide. Was warned not to sacrifice the steel frame for a lighter pistol; Ed Vandenberg, top notch 1911 smith/expert. I use mine as carry and it feels completely comfy, not too heavy or bulky, of course I am fit too, so I don't have to bury it inside a flab of fat!
My fav thing about my Kimber is the tritium nightsights.................so cool in the dark.
Enjoy it, go shoot a couple hundred rounds through it, clean it, shoot a couple hundred more and clean it again before placing it "in service" for personal protection.
Just curious, how many guns have a average Joe in your USA ???
No surprise, everyday someone gets shot......
You are crazysssssssssssssss................
Just look at europe, we dont need guns and we have not such violence like you do. Yep even Canada is much more peaceful than the holly United States.
HTR – You really don’t want to know
Guns…, Golf Clubs…, & Fishin Poles – One is never enough
Btw Guns & Fences – make for really good neighbors
RN
Quote from HATEtheRisk:
Just curious, how many guns have a average Joe in your USA ???
No surprise, everyday someone gets shot......
You are crazysssssssssssssss................
Just look at europe, we dont need guns and we have not such violence like you do. Yep even Canada is much more peaceful than the holly United States.
Quote from Hombre:
How many was killed in Norway ? 75 ?
that would never happened in an US park as would be dead before he drops his first magazine .
A guy I used to work with years ago killed himself with his pistol a couple of weeks ago. It's scary how many people I've known who've shot themselves. I had an aunt who was murdered with a gun but it was a lovers triangle murder suicide, if she was armed it wouldn't of helped. I had a pistol pulled on me years ago in a bar parking lot over a girl, I shut up turned around and walked away while the guy laughed his head off.
__________________
"I don't wear no Stetson But I'm willin' to bet son That I'm as big a Texan as you are"
Quote from bigarrow:
A guy I used to work with years ago killed himself with his pistol a couple of weeks ago. It's scary how many people I've known who've shot themselves. I had an aunt who was murdered with a gun but it was a lovers triangle murder suicide, if she was armed it wouldn't of helped. I had a pistol pulled on me years ago in a bar parking lot over a girl, I shut up turned around and walked away while the guy laughed his head off.
Quote from Arnie:
Your friends don't sound like gun owner material....I know dozens and have never heard of anything even close to that. Just how many of your friends have shot themselves, anyway? You are probably smart to stay away from guns. Just keep in shape so you can run fast next time.
__________________
"I don't wear no Stetson But I'm willin' to bet son That I'm as big a Texan as you are"
Quote from bigarrow:
I can think of 4 right off the top of my head...
Quote from Hombre:
Just buy a revolver, aim and squeeze.Very simple.
Good quality revolver costs less than $450 and the .
380 hollow point will knock down pretty much everyone.
Simple basic rules will prevent accidents. It's when you lapse and get lazy that accidents occur.
1. Locked safe is a necessity. Preferably a biometric lock or a digital combo. Keys can be found and used without your knowledge. Copies can be made.
2. Always assume a weapon is loaded. Always. Even if you just placed the gun down after unloading it.
3. Never point the gun at a target unless you want that target destroyed/dead. Not even when you think the gun is unloaded (see rule #2).
4. As Magna said, never place your finger on the trigger unless you are intending to fire a round.
5. Always maintain your weapons with oil and cleaning after every use.
6. Always rotate clips (if you have them) to ensure spring longevity (I switch them out every month or so).
7. If using a pistol for self defense, use hollow point bullets, as collateral damage will be minimized, and your victim will suffer the most damage.
8. Never handle or carry firearms if you are drinking or intending to drink.
Quote from Tsing Tao:
Simple basic rules will prevent accidents. It's when you lapse and get lazy that accidents occur.
1. Locked safe is a necessity. Preferably a biometric lock or a digital combo. Keys can be found and used without your knowledge. Copies can be made.
2. Always assume a weapon is loaded. Always. Even if you just placed the gun down after unloading it.
3. Never point the gun at a target unless you want that target destroyed/dead. Not even when you think the gun is unloaded (see rule #2).
4. As Magna said, never place your finger on the trigger unless you are intending to fire a round.
5. Always maintain your weapons with oil and cleaning after every use.
6. Always rotate clips (if you have them) to ensure spring longevity (I switch them out every month or so).
7. If using a pistol for self defense, use hollow point bullets, as collateral damage will be minimized, and your victim will suffer the most damage.
8. Never handle or carry firearms if you are drinking or intending to drink.
Quote from Magna:
Amazing, just amazing. I know a ton of gun owners and haven't heard of a single one shooting themselves. It's actually pretty simple to prevent so tell all your friends, relatives, firemen, etc — Keep your finger off the trigger and the gun will not go Boom. Or as many in the online gun community like to say, "Keep your booger-hook off the bang switch..." Though some try to make it that way this is really not Rocket Science.
__________________
"I don't wear no Stetson But I'm willin' to bet son That I'm as big a Texan as you are"
Quote from Pekelo:
Sir, you are a moron. Do you really want me to list a dozen articles where officers with guns got slaugthered?? It is all about planning ahead and executing the plan.
At Columbine and at Virginia Tech the police were waiting outside with guns while the kids inside were being shot at...
Here for your education:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout
"eleven police officers and seven civilians were injured, and numerous vehicles and other property were damaged or destroyed by the nearly 2,000 rounds of ammunition fired by the robbers and the police."
Again, it is all about planning ahead....
Quote from Pekelo:
...It is all about planning ahead and executing the plan.
.... Again, it is all about planning ahead....
Quote from bigarrow:
A guy I used to work with years ago killed himself with his pistol a couple of weeks ago. It's scary how many people I've known who've shot themselves...
Quote from Lucrum:
WTF?
I wonder how people committed suicide before the invention of firearms?
__________________
"I don't wear no Stetson But I'm willin' to bet son That I'm as big a Texan as you are"
Quote from Lucrum:
WTF?
I wonder how people committed suicide before the invention of firearms?
The problem in the USA is the firearms industry.
If they wouldnt exist, guns, rifles, pistols and all this murder weapons, could be made illegal.
This would be the first step for an much more peaceful life for each other.
But we know, this will never happen.
Yes you have the right to protect yourself with a gun.
You also have the right to be afraid of everyone else, because he/she has the right too, means usually is armed.
You have created this problem on your own, now you have to deal with the fucking results.
There is no other fucking country in the world, where people get shot so often than in god blessed free gun crazy america.
Just look to your neighbour Canada, as much i know, they do not allow pistols, only rifles for protecting against bears....LOL
You are just brainwashed by the firearms industry.
If nobody have a gun, you dont need to protect yourself from it.
Doesnt count the gangster who have guns in every country, but a good citizien does not have contact with those people anyways......
----------------------------
About suicide, guns are making it just easier to kill yourself.
But if you want to end your life, you always find a way, most common ways outside of the US are hanging yourself or jumping from a high building or bridge or cliff, third most used is poison....
I believe many people who killed themselfs with a gun, would still be alive, if they havent had the opportunity to get a gun. In such a depressed and emotional moment, where most suicide happen, it becomes much more hard to hurt yourself against all survival instinct. But with a gun, its done quickly.
To jump from a bridge needs much more guts, than pulling the trigger of a gun.
------------------------
---------------------
Shooting massacres also happen in europe, but it started in the USA. Its just a trend from the USA, nothing else, because everything what happens in Europa, comes from the USA.
Desperated bullied guys who have a hell of a live in school, have seen the columbia shooting in TV from Michael Moore, and after that they found a way to finish up with the fucking people and their fucking painfull life. Thats why shootings in schools in Germany have accured or that racist shit in Norway.
Its a trend, and it will not be the last shooting at a school.....
----------
But you can not compare all this shit with that what happens in the USA. Even Kingston in Jamaica, where it is said one dead shot a day is normal, is a joke against the shot people every day in USA.
You dont need a gun, if you dont want to shoot someone.
Only for protection is bullshit, you see it doesnt work, because everybody thinks this way. And to have guns is yeah so cool.
Antartic cool, to shot someone or get shot. Mega Cool.
Fuck This.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/data...-crime-us-state
Without guns the world would be a safer place. IMO
Quote from HATEtheRisk:
Without guns the world would be a safer place. IMO
Quote from JohnsonMM:
I always preferred the machete and/or the baseball bat for self-defense, but that's just me.
LOL
oh yeah, take away all those guns and people will be better off... a quick look at cultures that disarm shows that the next step is often a complete takeover of government and people being hauled out of their houses and never heard from again... and don't forget to factor in all the crime that is deterred by gun owners..
People are capable of being so convinced of the correctness of their stance when their reasoning is childish.. Our Medical industry sees a connection between cholesterol and heart disease so they sell billions of dollars worth of drugs that lower cholesterol.. but the actual fact is that those drugs don't lower heart disease!! People see that somebody got hurt by a gun so they jump to the conclusion that less guns is better, whereas it's shown many times and many ways that more guns is better and training people to use them correctly and be less violent people is better.
The murder rate is not tremendously different in countries like Britain where guns are outlawed compared to the US, somewhat but not tremendously...
Personally I like Teddy Roosevelt's idea, ability to handle various firearms was part of his physical fitness recommendation to the nation.
Quote from Eight:
oh yeah, take away all those guns and people will be better off... a quick look at cultures that disarm shows that the next step is often a complete takeover of government and people being hauled out of their houses and never heard from again... and don't forget to factor in all the crime that is deterred by gun owners..
People are capable of being so convinced of the correctness of their stance when their reasoning is childish.. Our Medical industry sees a connection between cholesterol and heart disease so they sell billions of dollars worth of drugs that lower cholesterol.. but the actual fact is that those drugs don't lower heart disease!! People see that somebody got hurt by a gun so they jump to the conclusion that less guns is better, whereas it's shown many times and many ways that more guns is better and training people to use them correctly and be less violent people is better.
The murder rate is not tremendously different in countries like Britain where guns are outlawed compared to the US, somewhat but not tremendously...
Personally I like Teddy Roosevelt's idea, ability to handle various firearms was part of his physical fitness recommendation to the nation.
LOL LOL
Quote from HATEtheRisk:
You cant seriously believe that.
Really funny............
Who cares........ i dont need a gun........and we in europe have a pretty good life without being armed all the time and shitting in our pants because everbody is a potential gangster..........
I mean are you fucking kidding me...........
Of course violence is lower in countries where firearms are illegal.
Open your eyes. Brainwashed americans.
From the news earlier today...
"ST. PETERSBURG, Fla. — Authorities say a Florida pastor's daughter who was accidentally shot in the head in a church died Saturday at a hospital.... She was struck in the head by a bullet at Grace Connection Church in St. Petersburg, where her father Tim Kelley is pastor. Investigators have said Moises Zambrana was showing his gun in a small closet to another church member interested in buying a firearm. Zambrana reportedly removed the magazine from the Ruger 9mm weapon but did not know that a round was still in the chamber. The gun went off, firing a bullet through a wall, striking Kelley in the head."
A couple of points here. First, they violated basic safety and the key rule that Tsing Tao stressed a few posts ago: Always assume a weapon is loaded. Always. Two, the gun didn't just magically go off as the news article implied, one of the idiots put his finger on the trigger and pulled. There was no accidental discharge, it was a negligent discharge. As I mentioned earlier, and there's no simpler way to state it, Keep your finger off the trigger and the gun will NOT go Boom.
Quote from HATEtheRisk:
You cant seriously believe that.
Quote from Lucrum:
I believe it.
Let me ask you a question, are you going to ruin this this thread with your stupid bull shit like all the other threads you shit all over?
Quote from Lucrum:
I believe it.
Let me ask you a question, are you going to ruin this this thread with your stupid bull shit like all the other threads you shit all over?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH 
i can smell racists here, or how i say brainwashed white power nazis. hail the stupedity.....
LOL
fuckaz
This HatetheRisk guy is a complete fool and loser. Probably lives in his Mum's flat. Just look........6.69 post per day! Get a job! You certainly do not trade, at least not profitably!
BTW, the gun ownership chart you posted shows the most violent countries in the world as having the lowest gun ownership. What does that tell you? Mandatory gun in every home in Switzerland..........where is the crime?
Think outside the box, come on you can do it.
Also in the chart you see Britain is very close to China. Is that what you want? Here is what has happened in the past.
In Switzerland, every draft-age male is required to maintain a firearm in his home, yet the Swiss murder rate is only 15 percent of the U.S. rate. An added benefit is that no foreign enemy has invaded Switzerland in centuries. Israel, which has the most heavily armed populace, has a negligible crime rate.
But the record of strict gun regulations in other countries is quite dismal. In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents were rounded up and exterminated. In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians were exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938. and from 1939 to 1945 13 million Jews and others were exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935; from 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents were exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964, and from 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians were exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970 — from 1971 to 1979, 300,000 people were exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956, and from 1975 to 1977 one million educated people were exterminated.
Quote from bmwhendrix:
This HatetheRisk guy is a complete fool and loser. Probably lives in his Mum's flat. Just look........6.69 post per day! Get a job! You certainly do not trade, at least not profitably!
BTW, the gun ownership chart you posted shows the most violent countries in the world as having the lowest gun ownership. What does that tell you? Mandatory gun in every home in Switzerland..........where is the crime?
Think outside the box, come on you can do it.
Quote from bmwhendrix:
Also in the chart you see Britain is very close to China. Is that what you want? Here is what has happened in the past.
In Switzerland, every draft-age male is required to maintain a firearm in his home, yet the Swiss murder rate is only 15 percent of the U.S. rate. An added benefit is that no foreign enemy has invaded Switzerland in centuries. Israel, which has the most heavily armed populace, has a negligible crime rate.
But the record of strict gun regulations in other countries is quite dismal. In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents were rounded up and exterminated. In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians were exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938. and from 1939 to 1945 13 million Jews and others were exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935; from 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents were exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964, and from 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians were exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970 — from 1971 to 1979, 300,000 people were exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956, and from 1975 to 1977 one million educated people were exterminated.
The truth is that every country has it's own set of circumstances. Both the pro and anti gun supporters twist the truth, skew the facts and use pseudo science correlations and statistics.
The right to bear arms has always been a right in America and has become synonymous with preservation of freedom and liberty. In our early days a firearm was necessary for protection and for food, but not so today. Hunting is more of a sport than a necessity for most. The problem I see with a move in the direction of more gun control, is that the end game could be disarming the good citizens. Goverment reacts to crisis or perceived crisis. How well did prohibition work here in the 20's? Why would we expect a ban on gun ownership to work any better than a ban on alcohol. There are untold millions of unregistered guns in America, and as in the 20's, criminals don't obey the laws anyway. How well has our war on marijuana worked? We have filled our jails with small time users while well armed criminal organizations thrive. Why would gun criminalization work any better?
No one will argue that terrible accidents and killings happen, so do car accidents, so do sports deaths. There are many self imposed risks in the world. Mentally disturbed people and those intent of murder will find a way. Are those losses balanced by the lives saved by armed citizens? How many lives are saved because the criminal knows he will be opposed and chooses not to attack or commit a crime? Do you have a "This is a gun free home" sign on your front door?
Suicides are often included in the stats which skew the arguments. If a person is intend on killing themselves they will. In Britain they may use pills, here more use guns. When these deaths are removed from the "crime" statistics, things do not look quite as bad .
Bottom line. If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns and will feel much safer in using them. Suicides by guns will be supplanted by drug overdoses, jumping, etc. Irresponsible gun owners need to be dealt with appropriately. If people choose to hunt and keep guns in their homes, they are accepting the risk, just as if they choose to ride a motorcycle or skydive.
I wish the world was safe, peaceful, fair and just, but it is not.
Quote from HATEtheRisk:
I just meant, that you do not always need a gun, sometimes to trust other people is better.
I've been reading up on psychopaths recently. They are not reasonable people at all. I'm finding that they can be swayed by acts of kindness though. Nonetheless when one comes through my bedroom window I'm going to probably incapacitate him physically any way I can.
I have found from past experience that a loose item or piece of furniture that is in my hand is far better than a pistol that is in the next room. I fought back a guy that was huge, [I'm 6' and this guy towered over me] by grabbing a screwdriver and sticking it in his belly and making him go backwards until he fell over something... Quick thinking and the quickest weapon is just great and it has a far better outcome than shooting somebody. He and I were friends after that, had I shot him we'd never be friends...
I'm far more of a pepper spray advocate than a gun advocate. I'd never advocate against gun ownership though. The reality is that an armed population is very hard to take on by enemies domestic or foreign. Japan rejected the idea of invading the US of A from the west because of the armed populace and that freed up our armies to take on Hitler.
Get a CCW. A pistol isn't worth much if it's at home when you need it. All you need is 2 references and a clean record (at-least in PA).
Quote from kxvid:
Get a CCW. A pistol isn't worth much if it's at home when you need it...
Just wondering, if anyone has seen the FPS Russia channel
Quote from HATEtheRisk:
yes, i will.
What you gonna do now ?
You dont have to like my bullshit, only i have, to get at least a little entertainment out of this board of a collection of lousy traders.
So go fuck yourself.
Quote from Lucrum:
Have one and I agree. It's easy to get one in most counties here in GA as well.
Quote from Redneck:
I also have one..
BUT The Second Amendment states I don't need one
So why the hell do I have one (rhetorical of course)
RN
__________________
"I don't wear no Stetson But I'm willin' to bet son That I'm as big a Texan as you are"
Quote from bigarrow:
Do you guys take a gun with you all the time. Seems like a big inconvenience.
I absolutely agree. There are 3 -4 states that have recognized this. If I'm not mistaken GA is considering eliminating the permit requirement.
Quote from Redneck:
I also have one..
BUT The Second Amendment states I don't need one
So why the hell do I have one (rhetorical of course)
RN
Quote from bigarrow:
Do you guys take a gun with you all the time. Seems like a big inconvenience.
Ex-Glock attorney accused of stealing millions
Former attorney at gun manufacturer Glock faces charges he stole millions of dollars
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ex-gl...945667.html?l=1
Quote from bigarrow:
Do you guys take a gun with you all the time. Seems like a big inconvenience.
Quote from Banjo:
Ex-Glock attorney accused of stealing millions
Former attorney at gun manufacturer Glock faces charges he stole millions of dollars
Re: Advice on buying some Pistols
I haven't read the 43 pages so with that said... for your wife, simplicity and reliability are paramount and that means a revolver. Even when a semi AND its magazines are well maintained, a malfunction is still more likely... are you comfortable with your wife trying to clear any of these malfunctions under pressure while thugs are in your house? http://www.havegunwilltraincolorado...n-malfunctions/
I recommend a Smith and Wesson Model 627 with a 4" barrel. It's a stainless steel large frame .357 Magnum that holds eight rounds yet is surprisingly comfortable, even in the hands of a smaller woman. The frame size helps blunt the recoil, and you can start her out with .38s which will further reduce it until she gains confidence and experience.
Quote from Baron:
So I'm talking with an acquaintance of mine that I haven't seen in years and he tells me the story about how his life has been a living hell since the last time I saw him. In short, a couple guys broke into his house, tied him up, and the raped his girlfriend in front of him. He had no weapons in the house.
His story has been on my mind so much recently that I've been seriously entertaining the idea of getting a couple pistols, one for myself, and one for my wife in the event I'm not around. The problem is that the pistol market is so vast that I'm not sure where to start. It seems like Kimber is the Rolls-Royce of the pistol market, but I'm not sure I NEED that level simply for self defense purposes.
Anybody experienced in this field have some advice or recommendations??
Quote from bigarrow:
Do you guys take a gun with you all the time. Seems like a big inconvenience.
Quote from Baron:
Sweet! I ended up with http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911/e...e-pro-target-ii
No holster required
Quote from Eight:
oh yeah, take away all those guns and people will be better off... a quick look at cultures that disarm shows that the next step is often a complete takeover of government and people being hauled out of their houses and never heard from again... and don't forget to factor in all the crime that is deterred by gun owners..
People are capable of being so convinced of the correctness of their stance when their reasoning is childish.. Our Medical industry sees a connection between cholesterol and heart disease so they sell billions of dollars worth of drugs that lower cholesterol.. but the actual fact is that those drugs don't lower heart disease!! People see that somebody got hurt by a gun so they jump to the conclusion that less guns is better, whereas it's shown many times and many ways that more guns is better and training people to use them correctly and be less violent people is better.
The murder rate is not tremendously different in countries like Britain where guns are outlawed compared to the US, somewhat but not tremendously...
Personally I like Teddy Roosevelt's idea, ability to handle various firearms was part of his physical fitness recommendation to the nation.
Quote from Runningbear:
Eight,
I'd be happy to believe your argument if it was actually true. The facts suggest otherwise.
"The level of gun ownership world-wide is directly related to murder and suicide rates and specifically to the level of death by gunfire."
International Correlation between gun ownership and rates of homicide and suicide.' Professor Martin Killias, May 1993.
Gun Deaths - International Comparisons
Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):
Homicide Suicide Other (inc Accident)
USA (2001) 3.98 5.92 0.36
Switzerland (1998) 0.50 5.8 0.10
Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.
Quote from Runningbear:
Gun Deaths - International Comparisons
Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):
Homicide Suicide Other (inc Accident)
USA (2001) 3.98 5.92 0.36
Italy (1997) 0.81 1.1 0.07
Switzerland (1998) 0.50 5.8 0.10
Canada (2002) 0.4 2.0 0.04
Finland (2003) 0.35 4.45 0.10
Australia (2001) 0.24 1.34 0.10
France (2001) 0.21 3.4 0.49
England/Wales (2002) 0.15 0.2 0.03
Scotland (2002) 0.06 0.2 0.02
Japan (2002) 0.02 0.04 0
Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.
It is just so hard to make comparisons. For example, how many of those low rated countries have the drug gangs and cartels we deal with in the USA. How many of those deaths were due to law enforcement? Bottom line still is that the bad guys will not turn in their guns. And I also know that when/if civil unrest hits, my pacifist friends will be asking if I have a spare shotgun, after they see a few neighbors robbed and murdered.
a quick open hand to the adams apple will stop anyone for 3 or 4 minutes as they are trying to get their breath back,teach that to your daughters,wives
Quote from Eight:
I've been reading up on psychopaths recently. They are not reasonable people at all. I'm finding that they can be swayed by acts of kindness though. Nonetheless when one comes through my bedroom window I'm going to probably incapacitate him physically any way I can.
I have found from past experience that a loose item or piece of furniture that is in my hand is far better than a pistol that is in the next room. I fought back a guy that was huge, [I'm 6' and this guy towered over me] by grabbing a screwdriver and sticking it in his belly and making him go backwards until he fell over something... Quick thinking and the quickest weapon is just great and it has a far better outcome than shooting somebody. He and I were friends after that, had I shot him we'd never be friends...
I'm far more of a pepper spray advocate than a gun advocate. I'd never advocate against gun ownership though. The reality is that an armed population is very hard to take on by enemies domestic or foreign. Japan rejected the idea of invading the US of A from the west because of the armed populace and that freed up our armies to take on Hitler.
Quote from ammo:
a quick open hand to the adams apple will stop anyone for 3 or 4 minutes as they are trying to get their breath back,teach that to your daughters,wives
HAVE YOU SEEN THE FIRST EVER DOUBLE BARREL .45
There's a video at the bottom of the article, but I haven't figured out how to embed them.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/hav...it-the-shelves/
Hey, it worked.....
Quote from bmwhendrix:
It is just so hard to make comparisons. For example, how many of those low rated countries have the drug gangs and cartels we deal with in the USA. How many of those deaths were due to law enforcement? Bottom line still is that the bad guys will not turn in their guns. And I also know that when/if civil unrest hits, my pacifist friends will be asking if I have a spare shotgun, after they see a few neighbors robbed and murdered.
__________________
"I don't wear no Stetson But I'm willin' to bet son That I'm as big a Texan as you are"
I have spent a good bit of time learning since the start of this thread. I had been thinking about needing to protect my family when the SHTF as it will like in CA... either because of the democrat party policy or earthquake.
I thought it would be totally irresponsible for me as a dad to not to be prepared.
I have been going to the range, and learning.
Each time I learn something I realize how good the advice was on the first few pages.
__________________
"From where Winston stood it was just possible to read, picked out on its white face in elegant lettering, the three slogans of the Party:
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH."
Just be careful jem, especially if you have young kiddo's running around the house. During my years of raising kids and grand kids I ended up selling guns and those I kept I locked up or in storage. It's probably a hell of a lot safer living where I do though. I was more worried about a gun accident or a misguided teen than I was about a home invasion, I think the statistics back up my thinking. I have been wanting to get back into hunting and also take up golf to fill up my free time so I'll be buying some more hardware.
__________________
"I don't wear no Stetson But I'm willin' to bet son That I'm as big a Texan as you are"
Quote from bigarrow:
...I have been wanting to get back into hunting and also take up golf to fill up my free time so I'll be buying some more hardware.
Quote from bigarrow:
...I was more worried about a gun accident or a misguided teen than I was about a home invasion, I think the statistics back up my thinking....
Quote from Lucrum:
They don't.
Myth: Handguns are 43 times more likely to kill a
family member than a criminal
Fact:Of the 43 deaths reported in this flawed study, 37 (86%) were suicides. Other deaths involved criminal activity between the family members (drug deals gone bad).
Fact:Of the remaining deaths, the deceased family members include felons, drug dealers, violent spouses committing assault, and other criminals.
Fact:Only 0.1% of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the predator. This means you are much more likely to prevent a crime without bloodshed than hurt a family member
Fact:The federal government lists the total firearm related deaths for children at 301, or less than one per day, in 2010. 81 were suicides.
Fact:Four children die every day in automobiles.
Fact:Four children die each day in the U.S. from parental neglect and abuse.
Fact:For contrast: 1,917 children die each day from malaria
around the world and 15 men, women, and children per day are murdered by a
convicted felon in government supervised parole/probation programs in the U.S
__________________
"I don't wear no Stetson But I'm willin' to bet son That I'm as big a Texan as you are"
Great stuff, Lucrum.
I was listening to the radio yesterday and they were interviewing a DC City Councilman about an incident that has gotten a fair amount of play. A woman home alone in a nice part of DC called 911 because a guy had broken into her house. They put her on hold for a minute or so, during which time she was freaking out. People have suddenly realized they can't depend on 911, but DC still has some of the nation's most restrictive gun laws.
The radio hosts started grilling this councilman about why shouldn't the woman be allowed to have a gun. Of course, he came back with the standard liberal reply that you are far more likely to be injured or killed by a gun in the house than be able to use it to protect yourself. The hosts were skeptical but didn't have your stats to fire back at him.
Frankly, I think people underestimate how difficult it is to use a gun to protect yourself. They can't imagine how difficult it is to function when you are so scared you can't talk. Unless you keep your guns staged for quick access, not easy when you have children around, you may have a tough time using them anyway. Still, I think people should have the option. The NRA's magazine has stories every month of people, most of them untrained, who use guns to protect themselves or their families.
The trade off between kids vs being ready for home invasion is tough.
However, the reason I might have my shotgun is a safe is for break downs in law and order - L.A. riots type concerns, post earth quake or nuclear reactor getting hit by a tsunami problem.
Or... perhaps if the govt labels people who go to churches which preach love and turn the other cheek... extremists.
__________________
"From where Winston stood it was just possible to read, picked out on its white face in elegant lettering, the three slogans of the Party:
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH."
NO, it would not. One incident does not change the statistics. Only your emotional perception of them. The Newtown victims families for example. They're making all sorts of emotional pleas for gun controls they know absolutely NOTHING about.
Quote from bigarrow:
If it's your kid that dies from a gun accident then that fact would out weight all the statistics combined.
I made the right decision and it was my decision to make.
...With the guns locked and stored there was 0% chance of a gun death accident, a considerably smaller chance of the guns being stolen and used to harm someone.
A good statistician can make the numbers say what they want and both the pro-gun and anti-gun people have good statisticians.
A family member suicide death by a gun is a valid argument not to have guns around teens, especially with all the bath salts, meth and alcohol and emotional problems teens have.
That validates what I did.
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
....The NRA's magazine has stories every month of people, most of them untrained, who use guns to protect themselves or their families.
Fact:The overall rate of suicide (firearm and non-firearm) among children age 15 and under was virtually unchanged in states that passed and maintained “safe storage” laws for four or more years.
Fact:Among young girls, 71% of all suicides are by hanging or suffocation.
Fact:People, including children, who are determined to commit suicide will find a way. There is a documented case of a man who killed himself by drilling a hole in his skull by using a power drill.
Should we require background checks and gun tool safes and or trigger locks for power tools? You know, if it saves only one life and that sort of thing.
Now more general question.... open to lucrum or anyone.
lets say you have done some shooting but never owned your own a gun until recently.
Now lets say you have a mossberg 500 combo for home defense.
and you had the option to purchase (right now) a new glock 34 9m California legal.
would you buy that Glock for home defense... going to the range and working on become a better shot... sort of for the fun/ zen / potential competition shooting.
--- note... nice stat work luke.
__________________
"From where Winston stood it was just possible to read, picked out on its white face in elegant lettering, the three slogans of the Party:
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH."
Quote from jem:
Now more general question.... open to lucrum or anyone.
lets say you have done some shooting but never owned your own a gun until recently.
Now lets say you have a mossberg 500 combo for home defense.
and you had the option to purchase (right now) a new glock 34 9m California legal.
would you buy that Glock for home defense... going to the range and working on become a better shot... sort of for the fun/ zen / potential competition shooting.
--- note... nice stat work luke.
Quote from Lucrum:
NO, it would not. One incident does not change the statistics. Only your emotional perception of them. The Newtown victims families for example. They're making all sorts of emotional pleas for gun controls they know absolutely NOTHING about.[b]For you? Sure. I just wish you'd stop trying to force your decision on everyone else. [b]
Myth: Trigger locks will keep children from accidentally shooting themselves
Fact:31 of 32 models of gun locks tested by the government’s Consumer Product Safety Commission could be opened without the key. According to their spokesperson, "We found you could open locks with paper clips, a pair of scissors or tweezers, or you could whack them on the table and they would open.”
Fact: In 1996, before laws requiring trigger locks and when there were around 80 million people who owned a firearm, there were only 44 accidental gun deaths for children under age 10, or about 0.0001%.
Fact:California has a trigger lock law and saw a 12% increase in fatal firearm accidents in 1994. Texas doesn't have one and experienced a 28% decrease
in the same year.
Also: trigger locks render a firearm inaccessible for timely self defense.
Fact:Children as young as seven (7) years old have demonstrated that they can pick or break a trigger lock; or that they can operate a gun with a trigger lock in place.
Over half of non criminal firearm deaths for children over age seven are suicides, so trigger locks are unlikely to reduce these deaths.
Fact: If criminals are deterred from attacking victims because of the fear that
people might be able to defend themselves, gun locks may in turn reduce
the danger to criminals committing crime, and thus increase crime. This problem is exacerbated because many mechanical locks (such as barrel or trigger locks) also require that the gun be stored unloaded.
[b]And an objective informed intelligent person can usually tell the difference.
[b]So...it's your contention family members cannot commit suicide without a firearm in the house? [b]
NO it doesn't. It only "validates" it to YOU.
__________________
"I don't wear no Stetson But I'm willin' to bet son That I'm as big a Texan as you are"
How do you reckon people committed suicide before the invention of firearms?
Quote from bigarrow:
No there would not be as many suicides or family / friend homicides if a gun isn't in a house. Which also helps validates my decision. If my guns aren't in the house a teen isn't going to use that gun to kill himself, so using suicides from firearms as part of the statistics is correct.
...And in the cases of home owners with a firearm stopping an intruder, most of those would not of resulted in injury (my best guess) to the people living in the house, so you have to take that in consideration when you look at the number of times a firearm was used to stop a crime.
I can look at this issue from both sides because it isn't religion to me, just another decision to make.
thanks....
not that I plan to be shooting in the house... but if you wanted ammo to stop bad guys but not go through walls... what type of shot gun ammo would you buy.
how much....?
and if you were looking for shit hits the fan ammo... what would you buy and how much.
Quote from Lucrum:
I like the idea of a shotgun for home defense, especially a pump action.
Shot doesn't penetrate like bullets do, so collateral damage is less likely.
I took my 40 year old Mossberg shortened the barrel and replaced the original wood stock with a synthetic pistol grip/folding stock.
The problem with hunting lengths is that they're unwieldy in close quarters.
The reason for the pump action is the distinctive noise it makes chambering a round. Fact is most confrontations are resolved by never firing a shot and the sound of that pump action alone may very well keep you from having to shoot an intruder in the first place.
I don't own a Glock but their reputation goes without saying. I'm a .45 ACP fan but there is certainly nothing wrong with 9mm. On the rare occasions anyone asks my advice on handguns for self defense. I always ask what experience they have and how much time do they plan to practice.
If they have little or no experience and or they plan on little or no practice, I always recommend a revolver instead. Not as "cool" as an auto but it's better to have 6 shots always at the ready vs 15 in the mag in a jammed gun you don't know how to unjam - in a big hurry.
__________________
"From where Winston stood it was just possible to read, picked out on its white face in elegant lettering, the three slogans of the Party:
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH."
Quote from jem:
thanks....
not that I plan to be shooting in the house... but if you wanted ammo to stop bad guys but not go through walls... what type of shot gun ammo would you buy.
how much....?
and if you were looking for shit hits the fan ammo... what would you buy and how much.
There is a lot of debate about which gun or guns to use for various home defense/insurrection/zombie situations.
There is no one perfect answer because what is optimal varies with the situation and with who is going to be using it.
One principle I like for a home defense weapon is that it has to have a simple manual of arms. Thatr means no complicated safeties, etc. Hence Lucrum's advice for a revolver. Everyone, even liberals, knows how to operate one and they won't jam or malfunction. The downside is limited capacity.
I favor the Glock pistol, specifically glock 17's. The 17 was the original Glock and many pros think it is still the best. Glocks do not have a safety or an external hammer, relying instead on a trigger safety, essentially a second trigger. Your wife can grab it, point it and fire it by squeezing the trigger, provided it is kept with a round in the chamber. 17 rounds of 9 mill is a nice thing to have in a bad situation. I wouldn't be willing to make the tradeoff Brandon did in this thread and go with a 1911 as my primary gun. As cool as a 1911 is, it is a 100 year old design with less than half the capacity of the glock. My second choice would be a Smith and Wesson M&P model, which is more or less a Glock clone.
The mossberg 500 is a classic home defense weapon. As Lucrum pointed out, barrel length is key in a tactical shotgun. A lot of pros would be quite happy to have that weapon in a home invasion or if you manage to barricade yourself in a safe room. Shot choice is vast, but ecen bird shot at close range will be very lethal. Ammo manufacturers are coming out with special home defense loads now that have reduced recoil and some have unusual loads, like a large ball bearing and smaller shot combined.
If your wife or even a kid is likely to be using the shotgun, a 20 guage is not the worst idea in the world. Less kick, less noise but retains immense stopping power at home defense ranges.
Insurrection situations are probably best handled with an AR- platform. More accuracy, longer range and much higher capacity than a shotgun.
I saw a feature on a line of AR type weapons made by a company called JR that use pistol caliber ammo. Rock River and some other manufcturers also sell Ar's chambered in pistol rounds. typically they use Glock mags, so you can actually get a 9 mill rifle with a 30 round glock mag. Again, it is a tradeoff. Arguably, it is a better home defense weapon than a 5.56 chambered AR. The bullet will be twice as heavy as a 5.56 round and have more velocity coming out of a rifle than a pistol. You give up range, which is not that important in home defense.
In terms of overpenetration, ie going through walls, the 5.56 round, particularly jacketed hollow point (JHP), will be safest. It will typically fragment going through drywall. Buckshot and large pistol calibers will easily penetrate several layers of drywall. I'm not sure how birdshot does. I would guess it would go through at least one layer of drywall, but it clearly won't go through as much as buck will. A deer slug would do the most damage by far.
http://whichgun.com/pistols
I only just found this site, but it looks like it might be useful for someone unsure of what they want.
thanks to both you and luke.
I am sure I am not the only one learning here.
6 months ago... I had almost no experience with any of these options or variables. The info on the first few pages was over my head.
now the idea of an ar with 9mm for shtf scenarios seems brilliant especially if you are already buying 9mm for a pistol.
The good news for me is that the guys and gals in the sporting goods store have not been steering me too far off course. They suggested the mossberg 500 with 2 barrels - one for hd and one for sport or hunting.
Quote from AAAintheBeltway:
There is a lot of debate about which gun or guns to use for various home defense/insurrection/zombie situations.
There is no one perfect answer because what is optimal varies with the situation and with who is going to be using it.
One principle I like for a home defense weapon is that it has to have a simple manual of arms. Thatr means no complicated safeties, etc. Hence Lucrum's advice for a revolver. Everyone, even liberals, knows how to operate one and they won't jam or malfunction. The downside is limited capacity.
I favor the Glock pistol, specifically glock 17's. The 17 was the original Glock and many pros think it is still the best. Glocks do not have a safety or an external hammer, relying instead on a trigger safety, essentially a second trigger. Your wife can grab it, point it and fire it by squeezing the trigger, provided it is kept with a round in the chamber. 17 rounds of 9 mill is a nice thing to have in a bad situation. I wouldn't be willing to make the tradeoff Brandon did in this thread and go with a 1911 as my primary gun. As cool as a 1911 is, it is a 100 year old design with less than half the capacity of the glock. My second choice would be a Smith and Wesson M&P model, which is more or less a Glock clone.
The mossberg 500 is a classic home defense weapon. As Lucrum pointed out, barrel length is key in a tactical shotgun. A lot of pros would be quite happy to have that weapon in a home invasion or if you manage to barricade yourself in a safe room. Shot choice is vast, but ecen bird shot at close range will be very lethal. Ammo manufacturers are coming out with special home defense loads now that have reduced recoil and some have unusual loads, like a large ball bearing and smaller shot combined.
If your wife or even a kid is likely to be using the shotgun, a 20 guage is not the worst idea in the world. Less kick, less noise but retains immense stopping power at home defense ranges.
Insurrection situations are probably best handled with an AR- platform. More accuracy, longer range and much higher capacity than a shotgun.
I saw a feature on a line of AR type weapons made by a company called JR that use pistol caliber ammo. Rock River and some other manufcturers also sell Ar's chambered in pistol rounds. typically they use Glock mags, so you can actually get a 9 mill rifle with a 30 round glock mag. Again, it is a tradeoff. Arguably, it is a better home defense weapon than a 5.56 chambered AR. The bullet will be twice as heavy as a 5.56 round and have more velocity coming out of a rifle than a pistol. You give up range, which is not that important in home defense.
In terms of overpenetration, ie going through walls, the 5.56 round, particularly jacketed hollow point (JHP), will be safest. It will typically fragment going through drywall. Buckshot and large pistol calibers will easily penetrate several layers of drywall. I'm not sure how birdshot does. I would guess it would go through at least one layer of drywall, but it clearly won't go through as much as buck will. A deer slug would do the most damage by far.
__________________
"From where Winston stood it was just possible to read, picked out on its white face in elegant lettering, the three slogans of the Party:
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH."
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