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Should I take the leap and quit my job to trade full-time?
Hello everyone,
I was not sure if I should let this decision be influenced by the public opinion, but I`ve decided to think out loud and ask for some guidance. I`m sure many of you have been in the same place.
Entering the holidays, I had finished my first two months of live futures trading (ES contract) in addition to working a full-time job. Living in Europe, this allows me to trade the afternoon session in the US markets, while missing the open of the session.
Needless to say, this combination is very exhausting, especially since I sit up late with my post-analysis after the close and sleep way less than I should. My daytime job is also fairly demanding. I was very tired entering the holidays.
As for my trading, after some initial success, I`m now down $3000, much of it due to a terrible mistake on Fed day (QE2) and swinging too much size early on. In spite of this, I feel fairly confident in my abilities to read the market and I`ve improved immensely since I went live. I`ve spent the last two years studying the markets (after my first failure, knowing nothing back then), so I should be fairly prepared for the task.
However, the truth is that I have lost money and I need to re-evaluate things going forward from here.
I fear that if I continue like I`ve done, it will be very hard to achieve decent results in my trading. Much because I miss the open and potentially the best moves of the day, but also because it give me less time for analysis and preparation and also the fact that my day job tires me physically and mentally.
On the other hand, the reason I`m working a job is that I need to pay bills like everyone else. On the flip-side, my skills are in demand and I have a decent reputation so I will probably get a new job (or my old job) pretty quickly, if my trading does not work out.
Considering that I need to change course, I see the following alternatives right now:
1) Give notice that I`m leaving and fulfill the last two months of my contract working long days. I should probably be able to save $7000 by then. That should cover 2-3 months of living expenses. Start trading full-time in March.
2) Negotiate a deal where I resume my current job, but reduce my hours by 40-50%. This would allow me to trade full time 2-3 days of the week in addition to the afternoon session on the remaining days. Having some savings, I should be able to cover my expenses for a while, provided I live frugally.
If I can negotiate such a deal, I`m thinking that a reduced day time job would be my best bet as opposed to quitting completely.
Thanks in advance for any good ideas.
Best regards,
Laissez Faire
2 months of live trading day trading in the es. i don't think so. need to give yourself at least a yr or 2.
Your system has not prove yet.
if u begin trading live full time, i believe u will be part of the 97% of traders lose trading in the futures/commodity market.
This is not get rich quick. it takes time to build a successful system. 2 months is not enough time.
Tell me does it take to get bachelor degree in 2 months? A master degree in 2 months? a Phd in 2 months?
Does it take 2 months to become a medical doctor without getting a bachelor, master and phd degrees?
Does it takes 2 months to be come a lawyer without getting a college degree and take the bar exam and pass?
The fact that you post such a question here means that you should NOT do it!
Re: Should I take the leap and quit my job to trade full-time?
what kind of job do you have that you are quiting.
take 2 weeks vacation and trade full time for two weeks..if yoiu can't make money in two weeks why quit regular pay check moron!!!!
and some people trade only morninng session and still have a job or business.
and don't be a moron telling your boss you are taking time off to 'trade'
daytrading or trading is frowned upon by the public.
if i can get better job i wouldn't be trading..this job and business sucks man.
Re: Should I take the leap and quit my job to trade full-time?
Quote from Laissez Faire:
Hello everyone,
I was not sure if I should let this decision be influenced by the public opinion, but I`ve decided to think out loud and ask for some guidance. I`m sure many of you have been in the same place.
Entering the holidays, I had finished my first two months of live futures trading (ES contract) in addition to working a full-time job. Living in Europe, this allows me to trade the afternoon session in the US markets, while missing the open of the session.
Needless to say, this combination is very exhausting, especially since I sit up late with my post-analysis after the close and sleep way less than I should. My daytime job is also fairly demanding. I was very tired entering the holidays.
As for my trading, after some initial success, I`m now down $3000, much of it due to a terrible mistake on Fed day (QE2) and swinging too much size early on. In spite of this, I feel fairly confident in my abilities to read the market and I`ve improved immensely since I went live. I`ve spent the last two years studying the markets (after my first failure, knowing nothing back then), so I should be fairly prepared for the task.
However, the truth is that I have lost money and I need to re-evaluate things going forward from here.
I fear that if I continue like I`ve done, it will be very hard to achieve decent results in my trading. Much because I miss the open and potentially the best moves of the day, but also because it give me less time for analysis and preparation and also the fact that my day job tires me physically and mentally.
On the other hand, the reason I`m working a job is that I need to pay bills like everyone else. On the flip-side, my skills are in demand and I have a decent reputation so I will probably get a new job (or my old job) pretty quickly, if my trading does not work out.
Considering that I need to change course, I see the following alternatives right now:
1) Give notice that I`m leaving and fulfill the last two months of my contract working long days. I should probably be able to save $7000 by then. That should cover 2-3 months of living expenses. Start trading full-time in March.
2) Negotiate a deal where I resume my current job, but reduce my hours by 40-50%. This would allow me to trade full time 2-3 days of the week in addition to the afternoon session on the remaining days. Having some savings, I should be able to cover my expenses for a while, provided I live frugally.
If I can negotiate such a deal, I`m thinking that a reduced day time job would be my best bet as opposed to quitting completely.
Thanks in advance for any good ideas.
Best regards,
Laissez Faire
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPs_j1EEplI&feature=feedwll&list=WL
I agree with MTE. Also, in order to confirm how robust your system is would require four or five years of actual trading so you will have gone through all the typical cycles. You need to go through a rough patch with your trading so you will think "Good thing I still have my day job!".
I suspect many of us experienced traders have had those months where we our trading generated fantastic returns that we could easily live off. Unfortunately, such returns may be fleeting.
__________________
TheSystematicTrader.com
most daytraders at prop firms quit after a year.
don't make enough money. or job sucks or found a better job with a future...
there are lots of traders in the market who have a job or business.
they trade at work .or have automated trading systems..automated trading system is the future.
i don't understand why brokers don't sell these automated trading systems or HFT machines to retail clients(the edge)
don't bother reinventing the wheel creating an edge...odds are somebody has the system..just buy the edge or system if you can get one at decent price.
Quote from fjpenney:
I agree with MTE. Also, in order to confirm how robust your system is would require four or five years of actual trading so you will have gone through all the typical cycles. You need to go through a rough patch with your trading so you will think "Good thing I still have my day job!".
I suspect many of us experienced traders have had those months where we our trading generated fantastic returns that we could easily live off. Unfortunately, such returns may be fleeting.
The first 6 responses are negative... Love it hahhaha...
That probably includes some of the 97% losing $$$ in the market
To be honest OP your not going to get a proper answer to that question here. Your better off discussing it with someone in your life (work &/or social).
Whatever you do ... Give it 100% of your effort and concentration... Going in hard cocked is always going to give a less than desirable outcome
Don't quit your cash-flow job until it makes absolutely no sense at all to keep it - which means that after taxes you should be liquid enough to the point that you could withstand a few serious drawdowns in addition to servicing several months worth of bills and living expenses.
Trading is a business, and you have to approach it like a business and make smart, logical, well thought-out decisions.
__________________
Spread, Relative Value, and Correlation Trading Instruction from a Professional Trader. The only thing that matters are Clients making money IN LIVE MARKETS. Why not interview my clients for yourself on an independent basis. My typical client is an outright directional trader looking to pick up an industry-recognized specialty technique. http://www.spreadprofessor.com
I think your both your confidence and insight would improve dramatically if you taught yourself to code and backtest a strategy that mirrors your personal way of seeing market moves unfold.
If it were me, I would not make the move you're considering until you've done that and understand the broad-strokes statistics of the methods you'll be using.
Quote from PropTraderMTL:
The first 6 responses are negative... Love it hahhaha...
That probably includes some of the 97% losing $$$ in the market
What is up with all these people talking about systems? I think that throws new traders off. It certainly threw me off.
It is my belief that if you have a high enough intelligence/IQ, the only way you will be able to trade is to apply common sense, perhaps economic knowledge and watching the market and build experience (2 yrs is good). The fact is that no system that is available to a retail trader even has the remote possibility to be profitable (other than by luck), because everybody is looking at MA's, RSI's and whatever.
I think to be a discretionary trader (considering mechanical is out of the technical baggage of virtually all non-fund-employed people) you just need to be smart. There is only one thing that matters, and that is that you're smarter than approx. ~51% of the money.
To be honest the only advice on doing it or not would be that you should do it if the market absolutely fascinates you, you can sit in front of a screen for a trading day without being the least bit bored and you are totally optimistic (yet self-critical, don't overdo it) even in the face of complete financial obliteration.
because systems or mechanical trading is what market makers and professionals at hedge funds used... HFT machines and blackboxes.
why do you think hedge funds only hire people with computing..for quants etc.
manual trading or video arcades could be obsolete like pit trading ...80% of all trades are already automated trading... i mean withoug HFT machines or system traders there would be no volume.
amateur or hobby traders/investors don't use the tools that professional use. professional traders don't trade or invest like that. professional traders have professional tools..tools of the trade.
If Laissez Faire's trading method could be automated, he could get some sleep, continue to get pay and BENEFITS (good luck on getting health insurance once you get sick), build a stake worth having a full-time employee, and not be stuck in a prop-trading role, which I take it, many dislike.
Do you really think there are profitable systems that retail traders can just buy? Seriously? If this is true then give me and everyone on this site a link to these systems. We shall all purchase one and become rich. What trader would sell a profitable automated system? They could do nothing and make money forever. Why sell?
Extremely naive.
Re: Re: Should I take the leap and quit my job to trade full-time?
Quote from brokenmarkets:
what kind of job do you have that you are quiting.
take 2 weeks vacation and trade full time for two weeks..if yoiu can't make money in two weeks why quit regular pay check moron!!!!
and some people trade only morninng session and still have a job or business.
and don't be a moron telling your boss you are taking time off to 'trade'
daytrading or trading is frowned upon by the public.
if i can get better job i wouldn't be trading..this job and business sucks man.
Quote from brokenmarkets:
because systems or mechanical trading is what market makers and professionals at hedge funds used... HFT machines and blackboxes.
why do you think hedge funds only hire people with computing..for quants etc.
manual trading or video arcades could be obsolete like pit trading ...80% of all trades are already automated trading... i mean withoug HFT machines or system traders there would be no volume.
amateur or hobby traders/investors don't use the tools that professional use. professional traders don't trade or invest like that. professional traders have professional tools..tools of the trade.
yes there are systems for sale. it works best with hedge funds who have large capital.
and the ones they sell for retail is too expensive for retail clients or retail traders don't care about automated trading as it's too technical for non-pro traders... like $5000 dollars and training fee..you could spend $10,000 just for the system and training.
Quote from bkveen3:
Do you really think there are profitable systems that retail traders can just buy? Seriously? If this is true then give me and everyone on this site a link to these systems. We shall all purchase one and become rich. What trader would sell a profitable automated system? They could do nothing and make money forever. Why sell?
Extremely naive.
Quote from brokenmarkets:
yes there are systems for sale. it works best with hedge funds who have large capital.
and the ones they sell for retail is too expensive for retail clients or retail traders don't care about automated trading as it's too technical for non-pro traders... like $5000 dollars and training fee..you could spend $10,000 just for the system and training.
Re: Should I take the leap and quit my job to trade full-time?
Quote from Laissez Faire:
As for my trading, after some initial success, I`m now down $3000, much of it due to a terrible mistake on Fed day (QE2) and swinging too much size early on. In spite of this, I feel fairly confident in my abilities to read the market and I`ve improved immensely since I went live. I`ve spent the last two years studying the markets (after my first failure, knowing nothing back then), so I should be fairly prepared for the task.
However, the truth is that I have lost money and I need to re-evaluate things going forward from here.
Full Time
My friend.
Do not suggest u quit yr job for a host of reasons but shall elaborate on just 2 impt ones:
1) not enough scale - so plus and minus, you are unlikely to be better off financially. Of course, if u hv a situation like last year where most asset classes were so cheap, then u can get an exceptional performance from a small base.
2) with your job, your mental make up is stronger and hence u can afford to be more patient in your trades and likely u will do better.
Good luck, God bless....:
) Temujin
don't think a lot of these traders at big places actually know so much, most of the times they are just trading flow.
Trading can be done by a single person not having bought any kind of systems. There are things that are fundamental about the markets you can see in charts that can be learned. It's called price action; although these words often mean different things to different people. To me it means reading candlesticks into context of other canclesticks of bigger timeframes. Everyone I know that's consistenly profitable uses a version of price action. Once you get it it's a rather simple thing, before you get it it will be the harderst thing to learn ... you will need a few years of screentime ... but they won't be able to take this one away ...
NO NO NO NO NO NO! Let me make myself clear. NO NO NO NO NO!
__________________
Wally
--------------------------------
"In actual practice a man has to guard against many things, and most of all against himself."
--- Jesse Livermore
Quote from pspr:
NO NO NO NO NO NO! Let me make myself clear. NO NO NO NO NO!
Quote from cvds16:
don't think a lot of these traders at big places actually know so much, most of the times they are just trading flow.
Trading can be done by a single person not having bought any kind of systems. There are things that are fundamental about the markets you can see in charts that can be learned. It's called price action; although these words often mean different things to different people. To me it means reading candlesticks into context of other canclesticks of bigger timeframes. Everyone I know that's consistenly profitable uses a version of price action. Once you get it it's a rather simple thing, before you get it it will be the harderst thing to learn ... you will need a few years of screentime ... but they won't be able to take this one away ...
1. I see you do not have many post here, neither do I, but consider that when looking at the advice being given. A high number of post does not corellate necessarily with more correct advice.
2. I offer this after 30 years of effort and still not being where I would like to be. If you were a friend or family member, perhaps a son or daughter, this is what I would suggest to you.
3. This is essentially a zero sum game. Consider that there are individuals and corporate players with lifetimes of experience and unlimited resources. Then how could you ever expect to win?
4, Why? Because of what you have read or infered from the media in some manner. Consider that media. If you look closely enough, you will find that their influence on you is in some manner realated to moving money from your pocket to theirs.
5. "There are winners aren't there?" Yes, but they are not the trust fund kids who trade like playing a video game, not the retirees who attended a week seminar on "how to apply the MACD properly", not the guy who bought the "best performing system of 20XX.", not the recently laid off guy who "always had a knack with stocks".....
"Who then?" Well from what I can tell, it is a small group of people who have gone through a learning/unlearning process that has lasted from 3 to 30 years. It has almost always involved blowing up multiple accounts. In many cases it has ruined marriages and other friend and family relationships. It has often resulted in financial difficulties.
6. Bottom line. If you are able to work for a consistent income and trade in some manner, you should maximize your opportunity.
If the trading is causing you too much stress, then you are not trading with confidence, with a set of rules that you have fully embraced, or are trading with money you need elsewhere. You need to be able to trade sim profitably for at least 3 months
before risking any money. Then when you are profitable in real time, save enough for at least 6 months living expenses. If your trading income is then becoming equal to your work income, you probably have a 50% chance of making it full time.
7. Those offering you great enthusiasm to "have at it", I suspect are either novices who do not have a clue, some one with limited experience having a good run at the moment, or a bitter failed trader wishing to share his/her fortune.
Best of luck to you whatever you do.
Pleease tell me he is joking. He's down $3000 but he "believes" he has got what it takes to leave his fulltime job. Someone needs to bitch slap him real hard and wake him up.
I say this: let him quit his day job!!!..... then when he realizes that he actually does NOT have what it takes to consistently make money in the market and has already quit his job, KABOOM !!, reality will hit him in the face like a runaway Mack truck.
** Actually Im being sarcastic, the point Im trying to make is this:
- You(the OP) had better be consistently making money on a monthly basis so you can pay all your bills and can AT LEAST make the money you made in your day job before you can even consider quitting that day job. End of story.
Re: Should I take the leap and quit my job to trade full-time?
Quote from Laissez Faire:
Hello everyone,
I was not sure if I should let this decision be influenced by the public opinion, but I`ve decided to think out loud and ask for some guidance. I`m sure many of you have been in the same place.
Entering the holidays, I had finished my first two months of live futures trading (ES contract) in addition to working a full-time job. Living in Europe, this allows me to trade the afternoon session in the US markets, while missing the open of the session.
Needless to say, this combination is very exhausting, especially since I sit up late with my post-analysis after the close and sleep way less than I should. My daytime job is also fairly demanding. I was very tired entering the holidays.
As for my trading, after some initial success, I`m now down $3000, much of it due to a terrible mistake on Fed day (QE2) and swinging too much size early on. In spite of this, I feel fairly confident in my abilities to read the market and I`ve improved immensely since I went live. I`ve spent the last two years studying the markets (after my first failure, knowing nothing back then), so I should be fairly prepared for the task.
However, the truth is that I have lost money and I need to re-evaluate things going forward from here.
I fear that if I continue like I`ve done, it will be very hard to achieve decent results in my trading. Much because I miss the open and potentially the best moves of the day, but also because it give me less time for analysis and preparation and also the fact that my day job tires me physically and mentally.
On the other hand, the reason I`m working a job is that I need to pay bills like everyone else. On the flip-side, my skills are in demand and I have a decent reputation so I will probably get a new job (or my old job) pretty quickly, if my trading does not work out.
Considering that I need to change course, I see the following alternatives right now:
1) Give notice that I`m leaving and fulfill the last two months of my contract working long days. I should probably be able to save $7000 by then. That should cover 2-3 months of living expenses. Start trading full-time in March.
2) Negotiate a deal where I resume my current job, but reduce my hours by 40-50%. This would allow me to trade full time 2-3 days of the week in addition to the afternoon session on the remaining days. Having some savings, I should be able to cover my expenses for a while, provided I live frugally.
If I can negotiate such a deal, I`m thinking that a reduced day time job would be my best bet as opposed to quitting completely.
Thanks in advance for any good ideas.
Best regards,
Laissez Faire
__________________
Silent, Omnipresent Gravity
With enough money, you can buy God.
Quote from PropTraderMTL:
Secondly, how the hell is the OP going to design a 'system' when his current strategy is losing $$ and has always been losing $$ (from what he has stated). You want him to lose $$ quicker? You want him to not have to think about losing $$...just turn it on and it will lose you lots of $$... its perfect AND so simple! Come on guys, stop kidding yourselves.
The following was on another thread:
1. We accumulate information – buying books, going to seminars and researching.
2. We begin to trade with our ‘new’ knowledge.
3. We consistently ‘donate’ and then realize we may need more knowledge or information.
4. We accumulate more information.
5. We switch the commodities we are currently following.
6. We go back into the market and trade with our ‘updated’ knowledge.
7. We get ‘beat up’ again and begin to lose some of our confidence.
Fear starts setting in.
8. We start to listen to ‘outside news’ and to other traders.
9. We go back into the market and continue to ‘donate’.
10. We switch commodities again.
11. We search for more information.
12. We go back into the market and start to see a little progress.
13. We get ‘over-confident’ and the market humbles us.
14. We start to understand that trading successfully is going to take more time and more knowledge than we anticipated.
Most people will give up at this point, as they realize work is involved.
15. We get serious and start concentrating on learning a ‘real’ methodology.
16. We trade our methodology with some success, but realize that something is missing.
17. We begin to understand the need for having rules to apply our methodology.
18. We take a sabbatical from trading to develop and research our trading rules.
19. We start trading again, this time with rules and find some success, but over all we still hesitate when it comes time to execute.
20. We add, subtract and modify rules as we see a need to be more proficient with our rules.
21. We feel we are very close to crossing that threshold of successful trading.
22. We start to take responsibility for our trading results as we understand that our success is in us, not the methodology.
23. We continue to trade and become more proficient with our methodology and our rules.
24. As we trade we still have a tendency to violate our rules and our results are still erratic.
25. We know we are close.
26. We go back and research our rules.
27. We build the confidence in our rules and go back into the market and trade.
28. Our trading results are getting better, but we are still hesitating in executing our rules.
29. We now see the importance of following our rules as we see the results of our trades when we don’t follow the rules.
30. We begin to see that our lack of success is within us (a lack of discipline in following the rules because of some kind of fear), and we begin to work on knowing ourselves better.
31. We continue to trade and the market teaches us more and more about ourselves.
32. We master our methodology and our trading rules.
33. We begin to consistently make money.
34. We get a little over-confident and the market humbles us.
35. We continue to learn our lessons.
36. We stop thinking and allow our rules to trade for us (trading becomes boring, but successful) and our trading account continues to grow as we increase our contract size.
37. We are making more money than we ever dreamed possible.
38. We go on with our lives and accomplish many of the goals we had always dreamed of.
__________________
TheSystematicTrader.com
Wow, that list is so accurate it is scary man! Is it really the same for everyone? I read the technical analysis books (If the trend is up buy, or sell if it's down) and that didn't work obviously. I started right around the end of april and the trend was up when I immediately put on a huge and leveraged position in several stocks haha 
Almost exactly hit the top with that (off by 0.5% or so) Thinking back to that moment I cannot but laugh and wonder if I'll ever think back to this moment and feel the same. I hope so.
I think I'm around step 19-21, I definitely went through all the steps listed there so I hope the following steps will be accurate to the list also.
I can so well remember making 6000 euro (on a 11k account) in a matter of 5 days because I made that plunging call I was 100% certain of and the index actually managed to rise 10%, and then losing most of it again on stupid trades that I wasn't at all sure of but took anyway. If a predator chased every potential prey he came across, then he would not have the energy to catch the ones he actually might.
Succes is indeed in the trader and not the methodology. It makes sense, but to really grasp that you need to experience it. The worst thing for a trader is probably to be hugely succesful right from the get-go, because, unless he quits, he will probably do worse over the long haul than the one who makes mistakes and overcomes them. Look at all the bubble boys who bursted (into tears) after '00. Tim Sykes anyone? If you watched the WW show, you could see the guy had no method and really not the composition of a real trader at all, just because he thought he was the shit right from the start.
To the OP, I think now is really an ideal time to start. It's a pretty tough market (imo) because there are big risks at play, especially in Europe. If you make it through this and you're still financially alive after two years of intensive risk taking, you may become a profitable trader.
But like I said before, I don't see the point in becoming a trader unless the market fascinates you on a deep fundamental (perhaps even spiritual if you're into that) level and you're not just looking to make money. If you're not that type, keep the job. The ability to make money in the market really doesn't depend on finding the right tool, system or whatever. It depends on finding yourself.
Well so much for my ramble. I'm still not recovered from all the losses I've incurred in the first months of trading, but I hope a tiny bit of my history and the insights I've had during my relatively brief trading period help you make a decision.
From what I can say this list is true and reflects the work needed to be put in, it's really hard to tell where you are yourself at the present moment in time, you see it better looking back lol.
... I know a few guys that are at 37, I am not there (yet) lol
Quote from cvds16:
it's really hard to tell where you are yourself at the present moment in time
Quote from cvds16:
From what I can say this list is true and reflects the work needed to be put in, it's really hard to tell where you are yourself at the present moment in time, you see it better looking back lol.
... I know a few guys that are at 37, I am not there (yet) lol
Good list. So, where is the part where the guy ran out of money and have to get several jobs to survive and save up enough capital to continue the journey?
isn't that one part of the sabbatical lol see number 18
a more serious reply: trade micro-accounts untill you got somewhat an idea what you are doing. Nothing bad happens to you if you blow up a few hundred quid. I've blown more than a few of those accounts ...
Move country
I would suggest if 7k is 3 months living expenses you move somewhere cheaper - I would suggest Bulgaria / Romania. Takes the pressure off and gives you time to learn. In countries like this life is very cheap and if you are an EU citizen no visa problems!
Odds arnt good for you but if you do it slowly and calmly you can make it.
Quote from MTE:
The fact that you post such a question here means that you should NOT do it!
besides wondering what the op's employment/work may be there's also a question
of age and marital status and whether there's any children, tho doesn't sound so
I wonder how many people have a gambling enzyme in them, and odd cell or two
that attracts them to daytrading, and daytrading volatile instruments
"I miss the open and potentially the best moves of the day" no longer true of 24 hr mkts
op, why do you want to trade ?
where did the idea to do so come from ?
why daytrade ?
I think trading fx Day-to-Days is ideal for working people and people with families
minimum financial capital/exposure requirement, no increase in o/n margin
5-10 mins to review one's position/s each day or evening or night, maybe 15-20 mins
to review on the weekend
and one million $s in 12 months doubling trading margin each month
people don't consider daytrading as essentially starting a business - and how many
businesses fail in their first year ?
to start a daytrading business would be foolish without 12 months living expenses
set aside - not just food and shelter but health care, continuing to contribute to the
pension scheme, transportation costs, clothing, insurances, etc, etc, etc presuming
the person wants to maintain their pre trading lifestyle - lots of disposable income
then there's the capital with which to trade, how much is that to be ?
is it one lump sum, or 2 or 3 sums in case of an early wipeout ?
and if it does all go, what then ?
Quote from Wallace:
"I miss the open and potentially the best moves of the day" no longer true of 24 hr mkts
Re: Should I take the leap and quit my job to trade full-time?
Quote from Laissez Faire:
Hello everyone,
I was not sure if I should let this decision be influenced by the public opinion, but I`ve decided to think out loud and ask for some guidance. I`m sure many of you have been in the same place.
Entering the holidays, I had finished my first two months of live futures trading (ES contract) in addition to working a full-time job. Living in Europe, this allows me to trade the afternoon session in the US markets, while missing the open of the session.
Needless to say, this combination is very exhausting, especially since I sit up late with my post-analysis after the close and sleep way less than I should. My daytime job is also fairly demanding. I was very tired entering the holidays.
As for my trading, after some initial success, I`m now down $3000, much of it due to a terrible mistake on Fed day (QE2) and swinging too much size early on. In spite of this, I feel fairly confident in my abilities to read the market and I`ve improved immensely since I went live. I`ve spent the last two years studying the markets (after my first failure, knowing nothing back then), so I should be fairly prepared for the task.
However, the truth is that I have lost money and I need to re-evaluate things going forward from here.
I fear that if I continue like I`ve done, it will be very hard to achieve decent results in my trading. Much because I miss the open and potentially the best moves of the day, but also because it give me less time for analysis and preparation and also the fact that my day job tires me physically and mentally.
On the other hand, the reason I`m working a job is that I need to pay bills like everyone else. On the flip-side, my skills are in demand and I have a decent reputation so I will probably get a new job (or my old job) pretty quickly, if my trading does not work out.
Considering that I need to change course, I see the following alternatives right now:
1) Give notice that I`m leaving and fulfill the last two months of my contract working long days. I should probably be able to save $7000 by then. That should cover 2-3 months of living expenses. Start trading full-time in March.
2) Negotiate a deal where I resume my current job, but reduce my hours by 40-50%. This would allow me to trade full time 2-3 days of the week in addition to the afternoon session on the remaining days. Having some savings, I should be able to cover my expenses for a while, provided I live frugally.
If I can negotiate such a deal, I`m thinking that a reduced day time job would be my best bet as opposed to quitting completely.
Thanks in advance for any good ideas.
Best regards,
Laissez Faire
__________________
Guru,
-----------------------
"Happiness is not at the END of the road, its ALL the way along it"
------------------------------
I would not stop until I can say the following : " I can't help making money"
Re: Re: Should I take the leap and quit my job to trade full-time?
are you retarded?
quit a $90,000 steady job to hangout in the street dealing stocks...
what kind of job did you quit and lose money after you quit your job..what a moron..the fact that you quit your job and trade only to lose shows you are stupid duh
Quote from jokepie:
DUDE,
I am and I WAS once in your situation. I did quit a $90K plus job after only few months of sim trading, only to FAIL (according to the SOCIETY) I lost about 10K in trading and 5 months of unemployment cost me 40K. In my case I took it well, I learned few great lessons and for the last 2 years I have been glued to the screen at my work. I watch the market open to close and trade now and then. Making few thousand dollors a day is not a dream but very much achievable. I am going to quit my job once again. SOON!!! Below are few pointer for you.
- You need to have expenses for atleast for 6-10 months. Trust me as soon as the that direct deposite stops hittin your a/c, after 1 month you will see the effect. It has psychological effect on your ttrding. Your NEED to make money will keep you on the tilt always. you WILL question your own descision every day and would either start taking too much risk or would not be able to pull the trigger.
- I am not sure if ES or for that matter any futures trading is good for any beginner. for the resons that you are leveraged too much and they do not show strong trends (intraday) for the most days of the month. Just take the last few weeks of ES slow creep-up. My recommendation is to trade stocks for the start, small size and always... Size in when you have a winner. Cut the loosers early
- Try to work with a Prop firm that will absorb your losses and give you a decent cut in profit. you do not want to be in a workplace that Frustrates you at the very core.
- If possible, take a Leave of Absence for 2 months and trade at a prop firm. DO NOT sim for more than a few days. small sizes at the beginning as always.
- 2 -3 yrs of screen time is usually enuf to gather "INSTYNCT" about price behaviour. Furthermore, your confidence in your readings in key, you should be able to pull the trigger whn needed.
- Last but not the least. Do you FEEL PAIN/ Frustration/ Anger when you take a loosing trade or its JUST A NUMBERS game for you ??? This is not key for a 20 yr Old starting their career in Trading. but for you who is going to put a lot on stake - it is a must that you UNDERSTAND you are going to be a Professional Gambler. Yes oFFcourse with better than casino Odds !!!
it's not everybody's dream to be a slave in the system ! One of the best traders I know left a very lucrative career to pursue trading. In your eyes he would have been stupid at that time, he's not !
Quote from cvds16:
it's not everybody's dream to be a slave in the system ! One of the best traders I know left a very lucrative career to pursue trading. In your eyes he would have been stupid at that time, he's not !
__________________
Silent, Omnipresent Gravity
With enough money, you can buy God.
Quote from adadadog:
I had a boss, of whom I was second tier support to those who were reviewing his work five years before I worked for him. each time he lectured me on something, only thing I was thinking was to smash his face.
Re: Re: Re: Should I take the leap and quit my job to trade full-time?
Quote from brokenmarkets:
are you retarded?
quit a $90,000 steady job to hangout in the street dealing stocks...
what kind of job did you quit and lose money after you quit your job..what a moron..the fact that you quit your job and trade only to lose shows you are stupid duh
__________________
Guru,
-----------------------
"Happiness is not at the END of the road, its ALL the way along it"
------------------------------
I would not stop until I can say the following : " I can't help making money"
Re: Re: Re: Re: Should I take the leap and quit my job to trade full-time?
Quote from jokepie:
I always recommend Jesse Livermore's book. It is a great reading and you will learn alot but only after you have been there in your lil trading desk - SCARED. thinking THEY ARE AFTER ME
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should I take the leap and quit my job to trade full-time?
Quote from PropTraderMTL:
Great book but as an interesting side note I discovered a little while ago... From being considered the best trader of his time and being one of the richest men in the world...He actually lost his entire account later on and committed suicide... True story! Crazy but a cautionary tale about the pitfalls of trading and failing to adapt!!
__________________
Guru,
-----------------------
"Happiness is not at the END of the road, its ALL the way along it"
------------------------------
I would not stop until I can say the following : " I can't help making money"
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should I take the leap and quit my job to trade full-time?
Quote from jokepie:
He was worth 100 mil when he died, Causes of his suicide are not known. his last letter just said - he cant take it any more and he loved his wife.
His wife at the time --- her last 4 FOUR , husbands commited suicides. I GUESS HE DID NOT SEE THE TREND !!!!!
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPs_j1EEplI&feature=feedwll&list=WL
Re: Re: Re: Re: Should I take the leap and quit my job to trade full-time?
Quote from jokepie:
I love trading coz it made me Humble and therefore i can tell you my experience with no shame.
After you understand that it is just a numbers game, turn NUMB to losses AND profits, understand what is exactly you have to do to get what you want as clear as DRIVING A CAR.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Should I take the leap and quit my job to trade full-time?
Quote from NoDoji:
I know you're a consistently profitable trader because only a trader who finally gets it understands these two concepts out of hard-earned experience.
__________________
Guru,
-----------------------
"Happiness is not at the END of the road, its ALL the way along it"
------------------------------
I would not stop until I can say the following : " I can't help making money"
If you have a passion and your responsibilities are few, or covered, you will regret it for the rest of your life if you did not take a chance.
I am semi-retired engineer who has had an intense passion for the projects I participated in or led. Then I was downsized. I found new passions that also produce income.
Now trading is my passion. If you have the right mind-set and the passion, it will take you through the hard work and sleepless nights with joy. You will wake up with an idea, leap from your bed and go think on it for a bit, or do an experiment, or read some more, or whatever you think will advance your passion.
I've been blessed to have experienced this cycle several times in my life. I recommend it, but it's not for everyone. Call it a healthy addiction that is legal and produces income.
Live long and prosper.
__________________
If it is to be it is up to me.
"What I mean is - I never gave up. I just told my self, IF SOMEONE CAN DO IT _ SO CAN I. period."
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Quote from NoDoji:
I'm at 35 and hoping 36 doesn't take another 2-3 years
Quote from Pension_Admin:
Good list. So, where is the part where the guy ran out of money and have to get several jobs to survive and save up enough capital to continue the journey?
Quote from HowardCohodas:
I am semi-retired engineer who has had an intense passion for the projects I participated in or led. Then I was downsized. I found new passions that also produce income.
__________________
▲
▲ ▲
Quote from stevegee58:
Wow, a fellow downsized engineer. We seem to have a lot of company.
__________________
If it is to be it is up to me.
When you are making five times what you make at your full time job, each month for a year then it is an option to quit your job. It takes at least two years plus for most to have a decent shot at seeing if they are capable of making this a living. I would ask you how you did in sim trading? Were you profitable 90% of the days? Are you these profitable days much larger than your losing days? By going to your full time job, you make money each day, can you nearly do so trading sim? I think the best way to relieve the stress is having something on the side to cover all your expenses, you don't want to take a step down in life to try a different career, would will have to work more hours, but that is expected. If it was me, I would break down by the hour, where the blunt of your profits come, then work other five.
I am still working as an engineer but in California. I trade ES and Euro in the morning to catch the openings and then K200 and Euro in the evenings and usually get the Japan closing action. All very liquid and plenty of action. You don't need to quit the day job to see if you can make money. These days I like K200 and Euro better than ES.... Using InteractiveBrokers I can set an alert when a price level is hit and an SMS message is sent to my iphone. I have InteractiveBrokers and Oanda apps on my iPhone. I will get the next gen iPad when they are announced (maybe next week???).
I spend more time 'planning' than I do 'trading'.... My goal for 2011 is to add interest rate screens and increase scale.
The day job has great health and 401k benefits and differed tax on salary so I will stay there until I get kicked out. Last year this approach worked out very well.
Good luck in 2011!!!
__________________
Smile: Angry people look stupid!
Hello everyone and happy new year!
I was not expecting this many replies, but I understand this is an interesting topic for many. Actually, I`m glad I made this thread as I`ve gotten much valuable advice already and it has helped me to start seriously thinking about what to do. The only thing I`m confident about right now is that I have to seriously reconsider my approach entering 2011.
To clarify on my job, I work in the construction industry and have decent papers and a decent reputation. If I wanted to make a career in this field I could fairly easily negotiate a pay raise of 20% in my current job right now (it would naturally involve more responsibilities). I could start working late hours as I once did and make a decent living. Starting out on my own is also a possiblity. I was once very passionate about my career and went well beyond what was expected of me, but after a while I realized that I had gotten what I could out of it and that my interests lie elsewhere. Continuing in this job would not make me happy.
That`s why I made a decision three years ago to pursue trading as a possible career. At this point I had been rather successful swing trading stocks, growing my account while working, but lost most of it when the market conditions changed and I did not adjust. Leverage and revenge trading can very quickly eradicate an account Knowing what was possible and also being aware of my lack of knowledge at that point, I reasoned that if I really spent the time studying the markets, reading books, learning this stuff, trading in simulator BEFORE risking my money, I could eventually make it as a trader. This I still believe, although my expectations have been drastically lowered and I`ve been humbled many times since I started this quest. I`ve been tempted to give up many times, but I`m not that kind of guy and since I pretty much chose this over a formal education, I need to give it my best shot before calling quits.
Although I`ve covered a lot of ground the last three years, I`ve spent a lot of time going in circles and being distracted by my daily life. I fear that if I continue to just mess around without giving trading my 100% undivided focus, it will take me a long time to make it if I ever do.
It seems like a few of you think I live in the US, but I live in Europe. My country made it fairly well through the financial crisis and we did not have a housing bubble. There is still demand for my skills in the industry and I could quickly get back to work if trading does not work out. And yes, I`m single without any children or other significant obligations. Pursuing trading while working a full-time job, does not allow much time for anything else
The idea of taking a vacation to test the waters first may be a good idea.
I`m less optimistic about automation at this point, but it is something I`m very interested in learning more about in the future.
The reason I chose to pursue trading in the first place was because I wanted a career change and trading seemed to fit many of my requirements. Working for myself and the potential of financial freedom to mention a few. The market also fascinated me deeply at that point (still does), so why not?
I know many disagree, but I believe day trading to be the best method for consistent income provided that you actually learn how to trade. I also like not having any overnight positions. The market may go sideways for months, but as a day trader you can always exploit the intraday moves. Experiencing a wide variety of market conditions in a compressed time frame (compared to long-term trading) also accelerates learning IMO.
Perhaps I should look further into swing trading forex. I`ve simply invested most of my efforts into learning day trading as that has been my goal all the way.
I understand that it does not make sense to quit my job before I earn consistent income from my trading. It makes sense in theory and this was always the plan, but coming home from work and trading during a very compressed window of opportunity is extremely tough. So tough that I`m not even sure I could pull it off. Swing trading would probably be a better method here.
I`m interested in getting a formal education if trading does not work out. That`s why I don`t feel like half-assing for several more years in a job I don`t like, just to find out that it`s not for me and being an old man before getting into school. Perhaps I just should take the leap and give it 100% for the next 7 months and then call it quits for now if I continue losing and get myself an education.
I need to think it over. I will start following the markets closely again on Monday, but only SIM for now.
Thank you everyone for your valuable and kind advice. There were simply too many answers to adress each of you in particular.
Still thinking.
Best regards,
Laissez Faire
ramora,
seems like a rather balanced approach and an efficient use of time.
If your anything like me if you had extra screen time you might get in trouble...but thats me...
ES
Quote from ramora:
I am still working as an engineer but in California. I trade ES and Euro in the morning to catch the openings and then K200 and Euro in the evenings and usually get the Japan closing action. All very liquid and plenty of action. You don't need to quit the day job to see if you can make money. These days I like K200 and Euro better than ES.... Using InteractiveBrokers I can set an alert when a price level is hit and an SMS message is sent to my iphone. I have InteractiveBrokers and Oanda apps on my iPhone. I will get the next gen iPad when they are announced (maybe next week???).
I spend more time 'planning' than I do 'trading'.... My goal for 2011 is to add interest rate screens and increase scale.
The day job has great health and 401k benefits and differed tax on salary so I will stay there until I get kicked out. Last year this approach worked out very well.
Good luck in 2011!!!
If I could keep my current job, but work only three days per week, I think I should earn enough to meet my financial obligations for a while.
This would give me two days where I can trade the whole session, with ample time to prepare before I start. The three other days would be strictly afternoon trading.
This would also be a lot less stressful (which is equally important) mentally and physically. I would be able to sleep adequately on most days, not to mention that it will be easier to resume my regular workouts and possibly have some time for relaxation as well.
An alternative to trade full-time for sure. Less stress, more opportunity and my expenses would be covered for a while.
Maybe
here's a 3 year chart with the market profile supp /res denoted, towards the botttom, nip,cleavage and ledge(these are the points it reaches before turning or stopping) are denoted in blue,the same are denoted in red with the prices,the reason its a 3 year is because that is how far back ione had to go to find res, since we have had such a bullish year...combine these with s/r on trendline charts and you will get the bigger picture ,years ago when the volume and values were much lower,the shorter time frames were much easier to trade,day trading ES today is extremely tough,if you learn to read these 2 types of charting and learn to swing trade with stops,you could easily find 12 setups a year and trade them and keep your job, probably being more profitable and less demanding of your time...the market will take a long time to learn,and its constantly changing, watching the news and keeping an eye on the longer term, you will get a sense,see the forest thru the trees ,this approach would keep you in the game,allow you the time to learn how to read the market,allow you to keep your job
heres a weekly spx trendline chart showing res in the 1250-60 area...combined resistances or supports are not so frequent but much higher probability trades,(12 or so per year)
the first thing Laissez Faire is you've got a 'hair up your arse' about trading - daytrading
and letting it rule you won't be got rid of till you are daytrading or have daytraded
it's possible that were you to trade 2 full days a week you'd get rid of the hair but
there's the other problem
the other problem you seem to have is not knowing 'how to trade'; that is you don't
have a system / method, or what you do have isn't profitable, and after 3 years of
trading failure, the problem will only be exacerbated by daytrading
"The market may go sideways for months . . . " since there's endless examples of
the intraday market going sideways for Hours at a time, I have to wonder if that
statement's an excuse to day trade, or not 'knowing how to trade'
is there a fear of 'not being in control' of the trade since you wouldn't be in front of
the computer when Day-to-Days trading ?
where does the fear originate ?
did you ever have similar fears related to your duties in your construction industry
job ? did they go away ? why ?
"Experiencing a wide variety of market conditions in a compressed time frame
(compared to long-term trading) also accelerates . . . " losses
DtDs trading is a lot more forgiving than intraday
all the techniques I use trading a 10 second chart I use when DtDs trading
were I in a GMT/CT Europe location and worked a 9-5 job, I'd be up at 7am, have a
look at the price during breakfast, go to work, have a look at the price when I got
home, and at 11pm a last look at the day's close before going to sleep
the only time I might not be in the market when trading the eurusd is during an
NFP release - see this Friday's and the euro's reaction then day's close
I could also carry a portable device of some sort that displays quote, chart and order
entry and sneak a peek at tea breaks and lunch time, closing the trade if need be
however, the main thing is having a reliable trading system/method - and without one
you're fooked
Quote from Laissez Faire:
.....This would give me two days where I can trade the whole session, with ample time to prepare before I start. The three other days would be strictly afternoon trading......
u are already thinking about how if it doesnt worK, then u will get another job easily. This tells me u arent serious enough anout trading.
It also tells ,e u must hate ur curremt job.
If u can want it bad enough, u will do it and dont look back. Make it happen, and dont lose ANY money
In my opinion - you can quit your job when you get to the point that you are paying more in taxes from trading P&L/Income than you are earning in your day job.
Someday when you are much older you will understand better where I am coming from. I didn't make trading my sole source of income until I had accumulated between $250,000 and $300,000 in trading profits. That was over 15 years ago and turned out to be a wise choice. Now the choice is when do I retire and begin enjoying the fruits of my labor.
that isn't the question.
should he quit his $90,000/year job to daytrade or trade?
of course not... do you see Obama quiting his job to trade? obama makes $300,000/year plus bonses..
do you see vice presidents or presidents of companies quiting their jobs to trade. NO.
people choose this job or profession because they don't have a choice...it is just another way to make a living like any job. you don't have to like your job to be trader..man you can hate trading and still do it cause you need the money.
and the goal of work is to make and save enough money and retire early and not have to work do the 9-5 grind.
when i was 19 me and my friends were talking about retiring at age 30.
Someday when you are much older you will understand better where I am coming from. I didn't make trading my sole source of income until I had accumulated between $250,000 and $300,000 in trading profits. That was over 15 years ago and turned out to be a wise choice. Now the choice is when do I retire and begin enjoying the fruits of my labor. [/QUOTE]
I cannot say that I completley agree with that, but it may be true for many:
people choose this job or profession because they don't have a choice
ES
I can't given an opinion to the OP whether they should or not, but I can contribute that whenever one is contemplating a major business/career change, one should expect a highly negative bias in the feedback of friends/coworkers. No one feels the pain of your situation. Everyone fears uncertainty.
A common themes from those who have voluntarily made big career plunges is that they didn't realize how much their prior empowerment was due to their circumstances rather than themselves (How easy would it be to regain your current job if no one was willing to return your call anymore?) and that the jumper didn't train/prepare as much as they wish they had (Try an austere budget befitting a losing streak while you still have an income. With a family, this is alot emotionally harder than one may expect. Are there any classes/books you really should take/read first?)
That said, there are always a 1000 reasons to hesitate. Do you have a passion for this new life? Life is short. It can evaporate so quietly. Make peace with your choices and their consequences, and then take ownership of your life. Its hard.
Quote from Steven.Davis:
I can't given an opinion to the OP whether they should or not, but I can contribute that whenever one is contemplating a major business/career change, one should expect a highly negative bias in the feedback of friends/coworkers. No one feels the pain of your situation. Everyone fears uncertainty.
A common themes from those who have voluntarily made big career plunges is that they didn't realize how much their prior empowerment was due to their circumstances rather than themselves (How easy would it be to regain your current job if no one was willing to return your call anymore?) and that the jumper didn't train/prepare as much as they wish they had (Try an austere budget befitting a losing streak while you still have an income. With a family, this is alot emotionally harder than one may expect. Are there any classes/books you really should take/read first?)
That said, there are always a 1000 reasons to hesitate. Do you have a passion for this new life? Life is short. It can evaporate so quietly. Make peace with your choices and their consequences, and then take ownership of your life. Its hard.
It took me years to finally recognize that trading is all about the boobs and the cleavage ( or all about the butt cheeks and the space in between, if you're like me).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrEYNun1zOA
Where is the edge? If your trading cant handle QE 2 or FOMC, you need more experience to build a trading edge.
From my experience, a trading edge comes with 10 years of market study handling complete bear-bull-bear-bull life cycle at least 2 times and understanding mass psychology behind the prices.
__________________
1) The great irony of trading is
that it is difficult precisely
because it is so very simple.
2) Deactivate your RAT BRAIN-
Fear and Greed during trading.
Quote from kingfisher3210:
Where is the edge? If your trading cant handle QE 2 or FOMC, you need more experience to build a trading edge.
From my experience, a trading edge comes with 10 years of market study handling complete bear-bull-bear-bull life cycle at least 2 times and understanding mass psychology behind the prices.
The fact that the guy asked this question in a public forum shows that he wants to REALLY find people in his condition and find out what happened to them who took a similar plunge. Or just enuf OKAYS for what he wants to do.
Even though we all are giving him the million dollar advices, I dont think we can tell what is exactly going on with his mind.
I have been through this situation once in my life and i can say from my experience that HE is not sure about if he will be able to manage an income out of trading. Basically he THINKS that the reason for his losses might be linked to Lack of FULL TIME devotion and that he is not able to take advantage of all the opportunities present in the market.
His growing passion and excitement has pushed him to the point that he is ready to take the plunge and Find out for himself.
It is a tuf situation coz,
a. its tru that trading while working takes away a lot of much needed screen time and SOME opportunities forcing the individulal to take trades at the time he is able to log in to the account.
b. If he is able to work full time in a prop firm or a mentor he might be able to learn what not to faster and may start floating faster that all by himself.
c. We all know that there are only few days a week when we hit big winners that make the 80% of the paycheck. He need to realize this by himself. he needs to know that taking a plunge is one thing but when he does he will have to be equipped with full arsenel - time/ enuf capital/ risk management/ mentorship/ right environment.
nuf said.
gud luck
__________________
Guru,
-----------------------
"Happiness is not at the END of the road, its ALL the way along it"
------------------------------
I would not stop until I can say the following : " I can't help making money"
i might remember 5% of what i've learned over the years,i know i can trade my way out of a loss and that the edge is getting harder to spot, i think edge might be knowing how not to lose which lately has been not to trade,the op at present is probably making more dough than a lot of traders,good thing about a real job ,you never have to give your paycheck back
Quote from kingfisher3210:
Where is the edge? If your trading cant handle QE 2 or FOMC, you need more experience to build a trading edge.
From my experience, a trading edge comes with 10 years of market study handling complete bear-bull-bear-bull life cycle at least 2 times and understanding mass psychology behind the prices.
I just read this whole thread, and there are a lot of good replies.
I'm not sure exactly what step I lie at on fjpenny's list. As someone said, I suspect it will be easier to tell when I see it all in hindsight. At one point I thought myself to being just short of #37. Now I know I was wrong.
That was after 6 years of trading(three part time retail, three full time with a prop firm). I believed I was on the way to making it because for a full year of that I was averaging more in a day(losing days included) than my corporate employee friends were making in a week.
But things change.
The trading environment got more difficult, and I adapted but slowly. I was still making money, but the prop-firm costs were making it very difficult. I had money saved from my limited success, so I was not worried...until this went on for 6, 7, 11 months. You REALLY have to try hard not to get emotional about your trading when you have been living off of savings for almost a year.
I know you said you're single, and that is probably a good thing for what you are hoping to do. My ex had a hard time adapting to our smaller budget when things slowed, which was still higher than I should have set it. Long story short, with my trading only treading water, we blew through most of my savings. The rest she took with the split.
During that time, I took a sabbatical from trading. To re-evaluate, and also to get my head straight due to outside distractions as mentioned above. That was over a year ago, and I am only now planning my return to trading. It has been difficult to find a good job since I began my sabbatical, to say the least. I am an intelligent person, I have a Bachelors degree with a good GPA, but employers just don't take you seriously when they see that you have been trading for the last three years. No matter the levels of dedication, concentration, analytical thinking, multitasking, and risk management needed to trade- they just don't like you. Period. It's more true now than ever with the way the media and certain members of congress have used "traders" as a scapegoat for many things up to and including our entire economic situation here in the US.
But, I digress. The point of all this is...I would strongly warn against giving up your current job for trading until you have SUBSTANTIAL money saved up. For example- add up your current monthly expenses, and multiply it by at least 24. Then cut your costs to the bare minimum, live as cheaply as possible, and save that money up.
When you're financially ready to trade, a few tips from my perspective:
-Maintain that cheap living while you go through the pitfalls of learning how to trade. Don't get the spending bug just because you have a few good months, or even a good year.
-Stay single...you'll think it sucks when you lose 10k in a day, try hearing your spouse's reaction. Also it will help you keep your budget.
-Don't assume that you will be able to get your same job or similar if you decide to go back. Work on the assumption that you wont be able to. This will help you keep your costs low and avoid taking on things like car payments, mortgages, higher rent, etc...and it might be true. I'm serious.
-Start with small share size and keep it that way until you see consistent success. Then step up slowly.
-I really recommend equities over futures, especially for a beginner. I've seen tons of people who can't trade successfully and they think it means they should try futures-WRONG. Another friend had a knack for trading stocks but thought he wasn't making enough so he switched, and lost his shirt while everyone was making money.
-I would highly recommend maintaining some type of part-time employment while trading. Income is good for the psyche. If you are money driven like most traders and myself, not having some steady income will tend to affect your trading decisions negatively.
I know this is more conservative than some people's posts, but it's just my perspective. You're considering quitting a solid job to join a profession where many seasoned people are dropping like flies right now. Colleagues of mine that were making more than I did, several million a year, are now only making in the 100-400k range. I know that sounds like a lot, but that used to be an OK month for them, and they're pushing way more size than you will be for the next 10-20 years. It's all relative.
A couple of things to think about, some negatives of trading...
-No health/dental/life insurance, some props will provide but it's still not cheap.
-No 401k or any other tax-deferred retirement account. So take what you were putting in to your 401k or IRA per month, roughly double it, and that's how much you'll have to save for retirement in a regular non-qualified account.
-Self-employment tax, for most traders. 15% as opposed to the 7.5% you currently pay in SS tax.
-Losing years are not deductible as far as I know.
-On a lighter note- I don't know if you drink, but right now you may be able to work just fine with a hangover...try going out for drinks all evening and trading well the next morning 
End of rant...
correction- self employment tax is only if you create a business entity
edit- self-employment tax applies only if you choose to create a legal entity for your trading, like a corp or LLC
A couple of things to think about, some negatives of trading...
-No health/dental/life insurance, some props will provide but it's still not cheap.
-No 401k or any other tax-deferred retirement account. So take what you were putting in to your 401k or IRA per month, roughly double it, and that's how much you'll have to save for retirement in a regular non-qualified account.
-Self-employment tax, for most traders. 15% as opposed to the 7.5% you currently pay in SS tax.
-Losing years are not deductible as far as I know.
Hello everyone,
I`m very grateful for all the good advice that most of you bring to the table based on your own blood, sweat and tears
Adding swing trading to my strategy is something that I already had planned to do in the future, but you guys might have accelerated the process. Diversifying with swing trades may keep me occupied and also reduce the pressure to day trade, especially on those days when nothing happens and it is easy to start initiating low probability trades.
I have now decided that 2011 is the year that I will take the leap and make it as a full-time trader. My current situation is not sustainable like I mentioned in the original post. I see three things happening and all involves change in my job situation:
1) Work full-time and continue like now until end of March, quit my job and then start trading full-time. I will have savings for 2-4 months.
2) Reduce my working days by two or three, giving me two or three days for full-time trading. Would allow me to sustain a living for quite a while, since I would almost make it on my salary alone. Some savings will help the ends meet.
3) Work 5 days a week, but only 6,5 hours per day, allowing me to start trading (although a little rushed and not allowing to much preparation) 30 minutes after the open. This will give the highest income, but it will still be pretty stressful.
If I do fail miserably and lose 50% (my cut-off point), I will humbly resign for now, knowing that I gave it my best. Knowing myself, I will probably not give up completely on the dream, but I will change focus on my career and find something else that I love doing and which pays. It might even involve going back to school this fall. Trading would then be a part-time commitment that will add to my lifestyle and not take from it.
I`m just not going to spend more years like I`ve spent my past three years chasing a dream, sitting home on countless weekends reading and studying all weekend, working intense hours, rejecting girlfriends, neglecting family, social life, etc, just to find out 5 years down the road that that I missed out on life.
In my opinion, the stake is not very high for me. Low risk and high reward. That`s the trades we`re supposed to go for, yes? If not, I will cut my losses and look for opportunity elsewhere.
Thanks for reading!
Best regards,
Laissez Faire
Quote from Steven.Davis:
That said, there are always a 1000 reasons to hesitate. Do you have a passion for this new life? Life is short. It can evaporate so quietly. Make peace with your choices and their consequences, and then take ownership of your life. Its hard.
Never quit a job because you hope you can make money trading. Only quit a job because you *know* you will make money trading - based on either proven success and skill, or an opportunity too obvious and great to pass up. So far you have 2 months, making you a total novice, and you are down $3k, making you a losing trader. You are proposing to trade one of the most competitive, efficient markets in the world, ES futures intraday. Bear in mind that 99%+ of profitable traders and hedge funds cannot get an edge daytrading ES futures, and yet we are supposed to believe that a 2 month piker with a net loss is going to do it month in, month out?
In short, you would be nuts to do this. Trade part-time, get more experience, and don't even think of going full-time until you have 6 months of significant and consistent profitability.
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:
Bear in mind that 99%+ of profitable traders and hedge funds cannot get an edge daytrading ES futures, and yet we are supposed to believe that a 2 month piker with a net loss is going to do it month in, month out?
Quote from jinxu:
Jinxu, if you're so consistently profitable, why are you still sim trading?
Quote from NoDoji:
Jinxu, if you're so consistently profitable, why are you still sim trading?
Quote from jinxu:
being more cautious and picky on setups due to having limited capital.
jinxu, a cash account would be more impressive than a paper trading account.
__________________
If it is to be it is up to me.
Quote from HowardCohodas:
jinxu, a cash account would be more impressive than a paper trading account.
Hey OP,
I can most definitely empathize with your situation as I'm in a very similar spot. I started trading with a group of friends in Uni (mid 2000's), one of whom's parents owned a small IA firm and I was hooked. But when I graduated with my honors, I decided that Law school was my best choice and gave up trading to work for a year in a job that paid well but was not intended as a career - just a way to sock away some tuition $$. Then a twist - I got offered a promotion and free relocation to one of the top cities in the world after 8 months... tough choice. My g/f (now my wife) and I decided that this opportunity was too good to pass up, seeing as we were from a much smaller, rural city, it was very exciting.
Mistake... turned out that after another year or so I realized that I HATED my job and my wife was miserable with no friends or family. However I still followed markets constantly, did some swing trading when I could, and even got certified in the process (Cdn equivalent of S7).
So I took a job as a junior trader/operations coordinator with a large energy marketer where I gained a lot of valuable knowledge and continued my formal education. Nice office downtown, have been enjoying this position for some time now.
Then along came our little guy (16 mths old now) and boom! My wife has had enough and I cannot stand to see her suffer anymore. So I made the choice to put up our house for sale and move back to our hometown, giving up my job for the sake of her happiness.
So that brings me to the dilemma.... 99.9% chance that I have the option to return to my original company and a more senior position. But I know in my heart of hearts that I will be miserable (much like yourself).
I also want to trade, full time. I have adequate capital and can afford to devote ample time without the worry of paying the bills with my trading activities. I also have been working on strategies as much as time will allow, but I agree - I feel I need to focus on it like a business and give it all I've got.
So I wish you all the best, I am still undecided as well but thought it may be nice to know you're not alone out there!
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:
You are proposing to trade one of the most competitive, efficient markets in the world, ES futures intraday. Bear in mind that 99%+ of profitable traders and hedge funds cannot get an edge daytrading ES futures, and yet we are supposed to believe that a 2 month piker with a net loss is going to do it month in, month out?
Quote from jo0477:
So I wish you all the best, I am still undecided as well but thought it may be nice to know you're not alone out there!
Quote from cvds16:
There are things that are fundamental about the markets you can see in charts that can be learned. It's called price action; although these words often mean different things to different people. To me it means reading candlesticks into context of other canclesticks of bigger timeframes. Everyone I know that's consistenly profitable uses a version of price action. Once you get it it's a rather simple thing, before you get it it will be the harderst thing to learn ... you will need a few years of screentime ... but they won't be able to take this one away ...
Quote from jo0477:
Hey OP,
I can most definitely empathize with your situation as I'm in a very similar spot. I started trading with a group of friends in Uni (mid 2000's), one of whom's parents owned a small IA firm and I was hooked. But when I graduated with my honors, I decided that Law school was my best choice and gave up trading to work for a year in a job that paid well but was not intended as a career - just a way to sock away some tuition $$. Then a twist - I got offered a promotion and free relocation to one of the top cities in the world after 8 months... tough choice. My g/f (now my wife) and I decided that this opportunity was too good to pass up, seeing as we were from a much smaller, rural city, it was very exciting.
Mistake... turned out that after another year or so I realized that I HATED my job and my wife was miserable with no friends or family. However I still followed markets constantly, did some swing trading when I could, and even got certified in the process (Cdn equivalent of S7).
So I took a job as a junior trader/operations coordinator with a large energy marketer where I gained a lot of valuable knowledge and continued my formal education. Nice office downtown, have been enjoying this position for some time now.
Then along came our little guy (16 mths old now) and boom! My wife has had enough and I cannot stand to see her suffer anymore. So I made the choice to put up our house for sale and move back to our hometown, giving up my job for the sake of her happiness.
So that brings me to the dilemma.... 99.9% chance that I have the option to return to my original company and a more senior position. But I know in my heart of hearts that I will be miserable (much like yourself).
I also want to trade, full time. I have adequate capital and can afford to devote ample time without the worry of paying the bills with my trading activities. I also have been working on strategies as much as time will allow, but I agree - I feel I need to focus on it like a business and give it all I've got.
So I wish you all the best, I am still undecided as well but thought it may be nice to know you're not alone out there!
So glad I found this thread, great read and I've enjoyed all the responses. (Sorry LF, not trying to hijack your thread)
So I'm posting b/c I've been f*cked for the last time! I've had 3 corp gigs and all are/have been an absolute nightmare. I really thought (naively I'm sure) that this company was actually different... nope
This time its worse as I got royally screwed for trying to be honest and helpful. Anyone who buys into the "more than a boss but a friend" and "we care about our people - people are what matter"... bullsh!t. They will turn on you in a heartbeat and boot you in the ribs when you're down. Working hard, extra hours, excelling in your position (which I was told was the case) mean nothing. It really doesn't matter what you did last week, last month, last year and so on. You're a number on a section of the balance sheet. One company I worked for, I actually heard the president tell a VP (in a drunken haze) "I make money by finding smart but desperate people and paying them cheap". Another favorite from a regional manager "gotta keep 'em scared, the only way to keep these guys in line". Well 3 strikes and I'm out.
So If I want to trade full time, here's what I figure I'm in for. I have some experience but Like everything, it will take time. I've started jobs with zero knowledge and those have taken at least 6 mths to even get a feel for whats going on. Experience and "doing" is IMHO, the only logical direction from where I'm at.
Pros:
Freedom
Happiness (thx to the previous posters who understand that dollars are not the be all of end all)
Challenging myself: Things go south, its on me and no-one else
Doing something I love and devoting time to making a life on my terms
Making $$, no more, no less. And I don't mean millions overnight - I mean getting to a point through hard work and study where I'm living comfortably.
I can afford the capital and time - possibly my last chance in this lifetime to really give a shot at what I've wanted to for years but was too afraid to give up my paycheck.
Cons:
Odds stacked heavily against me, I completely understand this going in
Learning curve - I'm going to lose some $$, I know that this is inevitable. Mistakes will be made, I just have to apply the risk mgmt and discipline that I am currently using personally and professionally to mitigate losses.
Stress, emotion, all the human aspects of trading that inevitably rear up, I'm sure even for the veterans out there. Getting ready for high highs and low lows and how to manage this multiple times daily.
Lack of a secure, regular paycheck... but thats what I figure a wife is for kidding ladies
So keep the posts coming, I've enjoyed each and every viewpoint
Quote from Ghost of Cutten:
Never quit a job because you hope you can make money trading. Only quit a job because you *know* you will make money trading - based on either proven success and skill, or an opportunity too obvious and great to pass up. So far you have 2 months, making you a total novice, and you are down $3k, making you a losing trader. You are proposing to trade one of the most competitive, efficient markets in the world, ES futures intraday. Bear in mind that 99%+ of profitable traders and hedge funds cannot get an edge daytrading ES futures, and yet we are supposed to believe that a 2 month piker with a net loss is going to do it month in, month out?
In short, you would be nuts to do this. Trade part-time, get more experience, and don't even think of going full-time until you have 6 months of significant and consistent profitability.
Quote from Laissez Faire:
I have now decided that 2011 is the year that I will take the leap and make it as a full-time trader.
Quote from Specterx:
In my opinion you should definitely not quit your job. .
People accept data that supports their beliefs and reject information
and interpretation that doesn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
So the OP will decide according to his heart anyway.
But I tell my story, since it might help the OP's decision.
I started trading part time in august of 2001, and did not plan to go full time untill "arrived". I had a good system developed with a friend of mine, but it was not giving the results we were expecting from backtesting. 2001 was a small positive year, and 2002 was a 2 digit (%) loss. Early 2003 the company I worked for went bankrupt, and I had to decide what to do: accept a job offer I had, or trade full time. The trading system was for swing trading equities and was making money only on paper. I did not have much saved up, I had a family with two children and we just borrowed money to buy a flat in the city where we lived. So it was an easy decision, you would say, and go for the job.
Well, I chose to trade full time and did not accept the job offer.
I spent 2003 and 2004 figuring out why aren't we getting the simulation results and fixing the problems. I am slow I know :-).
The system became more and more automated and I stopped interfering with the signals, adding shorts, etc.
2003 was 3 digit percentage gain but with tiny amount of money since we were living off the gains during the year.
2004, 2005, 2006 were all 3 digit gains in terms of percentage, and we could put in borrowed money.
The account grew nicely untill early 2007. So I thought I got there and was making big plans.
Well, it did not happen. From that point in 2007 the strategy stopped working. It seemed like somebody turned off the tap. It was still making some money, but the drawdowns became very painful and comparable to the reduced gains.
So I stopped the automated swing trading system and started daytrading manually futures and fx. I am a slow learner, as I said,
and spent almost 3 years daytrading before finally started to turn some profit, but I still have a long road ahead.
I think you have a slim chance to make it, unless you have time and money for surviving the (long) learning curve as others also said. But as an employee of some company your chances to "make it" may be even smaller.
Re: Should I take the leap and quit my job to trade full-time?
Quote from Laissez Faire:
Hello everyone,
I was not sure if I should let this decision be influenced by the public opinion, but I`ve decided to think out loud and ask for some guidance. I`m sure many of you have been in the same place.
Entering the holidays, I had finished my first two months of live futures trading (ES contract) in addition to working a full-time job. Living in Europe, this allows me to trade the afternoon session in the US markets, while missing the open of the session.
Needless to say, this combination is very exhausting, especially since I sit up late with my post-analysis after the close and sleep way less than I should. My daytime job is also fairly demanding. I was very tired entering the holidays.
As for my trading, after some initial success, I`m now down $3000, much of it due to a terrible mistake on Fed day (QE2) and swinging too much size early on. In spite of this, I feel fairly confident in my abilities to read the market and I`ve improved immensely since I went live. I`ve spent the last two years studying the markets (after my first failure, knowing nothing back then), so I should be fairly prepared for the task.
However, the truth is that I have lost money and I need to re-evaluate things going forward from here.
I fear that if I continue like I`ve done, it will be very hard to achieve decent results in my trading. Much because I miss the open and potentially the best moves of the day, but also because it give me less time for analysis and preparation and also the fact that my day job tires me physically and mentally.
On the other hand, the reason I`m working a job is that I need to pay bills like everyone else. On the flip-side, my skills are in demand and I have a decent reputation so I will probably get a new job (or my old job) pretty quickly, if my trading does not work out.
Considering that I need to change course, I see the following alternatives right now:
1) Give notice that I`m leaving and fulfill the last two months of my contract working long days. I should probably be able to save $7000 by then. That should cover 2-3 months of living expenses. Start trading full-time in March.
2) Negotiate a deal where I resume my current job, but reduce my hours by 40-50%. This would allow me to trade full time 2-3 days of the week in addition to the afternoon session on the remaining days. Having some savings, I should be able to cover my expenses for a while, provided I live frugally.
If I can negotiate such a deal, I`m thinking that a reduced day time job would be my best bet as opposed to quitting completely.
Thanks in advance for any good ideas.
Best regards,
Laissez Faire
__________________
I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH AUTHORITY!
Quote from redone:
Why debate the issue while the US national unemployment rate is over 6%? I would only consider if the national rate were to fall below 6% then at least I would be confident that something out there might be waiting for me. As it is, a job is not a luxury in the US but something that they need and need badly.
Quote from Steven.Davis:
I took a big plunge leaving an established firm, which had no futures, or a start-up with smart people and an unlimited future. I am grateful for what I learned from my coworkers and the experiences that I had, but the start-ups future was quite brief. Left unemployed in a state in which I knew no one in a house full of boxes which hadn't even been unpacked with too much debt to go back ... It has been a few years now, but in this economy, economic wounds don't heal. My wife and I fight all the time about my "big mistake." The guy who recruited me to this state has had the opportunity to see that not only evil, greedy wives but also children and friends will desert a man who cannot enable them. If I hadn't taken a chance, I wouldn't have the skills and experiences that I have today.
Taking all of the "right", safe, socially prescribed choices is not a recipe for happiness, but for the damnation of a life not yours.
Hi,
You know there are ways to trade without quitting your job. I trade stocks with hold times from days to weeks based on end of day data. I spend about 5 hours per week running my screens, entering my trades, and recording my results. I spend more time on research but that can be done whenever. I can continue to work and grow my account much quicker because I don't have to take money out except for taxes. I know I won't match the returns of the top day traders who can compound their money much faster, but I am still very profitable and I have lot's more extra time. Right now I fill that with working. I'm thinking next year I may fill that time with golf and reading.
Quote from fjpenney:
The following was on another thread:
1. We accumulate information – buying books, going to seminars and researching.
2. We begin to trade with our ‘new’ knowledge.
3. We consistently ‘donate’ and then realize we may need more knowledge or information.
4. We accumulate more information.
5. We switch the commodities we are currently following.
6. We go back into the market and trade with our ‘updated’ knowledge.
7. We get ‘beat up’ again and begin to lose some of our confidence.
Fear starts setting in.
8. We start to listen to ‘outside news’ and to other traders.
9. We go back into the market and continue to ‘donate’.
10. We switch commodities again.
11. We search for more information.
12. We go back into the market and start to see a little progress.
13. We get ‘over-confident’ and the market humbles us.
14. We start to understand that trading successfully is going to take more time and more knowledge than we anticipated.
Most people will give up at this point, as they realize work is involved.
15. We get serious and start concentrating on learning a ‘real’ methodology.
16. We trade our methodology with some success, but realize that something is missing.
17. We begin to understand the need for having rules to apply our methodology.
18. We take a sabbatical from trading to develop and research our trading rules.
19. We start trading again, this time with rules and find some success, but over all we still hesitate when it comes time to execute.
20. We add, subtract and modify rules as we see a need to be more proficient with our rules.
21. We feel we are very close to crossing that threshold of successful trading.
22. We start to take responsibility for our trading results as we understand that our success is in us, not the methodology.
23. We continue to trade and become more proficient with our methodology and our rules.
24. As we trade we still have a tendency to violate our rules and our results are still erratic.
25. We know we are close.
26. We go back and research our rules.
27. We build the confidence in our rules and go back into the market and trade.
28. Our trading results are getting better, but we are still hesitating in executing our rules.
29. We now see the importance of following our rules as we see the results of our trades when we don’t follow the rules.
30. We begin to see that our lack of success is within us (a lack of discipline in following the rules because of some kind of fear), and we begin to work on knowing ourselves better.
31. We continue to trade and the market teaches us more and more about ourselves.
32. We master our methodology and our trading rules.
33. We begin to consistently make money.
34. We get a little over-confident and the market humbles us.
35. We continue to learn our lessons.
36. We stop thinking and allow our rules to trade for us (trading becomes boring, but successful) and our trading account continues to grow as we increase our contract size.
37. We are making more money than we ever dreamed possible.
38. We go on with our lives and accomplish many of the goals we had always dreamed of.
Quote from Steven.Davis:
That said, there are always a 1000 reasons to hesitate. Do you have a passion for this new life? Life is short. It can evaporate so quietly. Make peace with your choices and their consequences, and then take ownership of your life. Its hard.
best wishes LF to your successful trading
but, I have to say
DO NOT borrow money to trade, you would be compounding your losses
Quote from dwpeters:
Hi,
You know there are ways to trade without quitting your job. I trade stocks with hold times from days to weeks based on end of day data. I spend about 5 hours per week running my screens, entering my trades, and recording my results. I spend more time on research but that can be done whenever. I can continue to work and grow my account much quicker because I don't have to take money out except for taxes. I know I won't match the returns of the top day traders who can compound their money much faster, but I am still very profitable and I have lot's more extra time. Right now I fill that with working. I'm thinking next year I may fill that time with golf and reading.
Quote from Laissez Faire:
Well, last weekend I finally quit my soul sucking day job. It was an amazing feeling to finally be free, although I was too tired from accumulated fatigue over the last year to appreciate it fully
I have not been trading live the last months, but accumulating as much capital as humanly possible while still working on my trading and getting at least a few hours of sleep per night. I wish I had more capital, but I did manage to save up roughly 4 months of living expenses. I also have a low interest credit line that I will not hesitate on using if I need to.
I honestly think I have a good chance at making it. If not, I would not do it. It`s now or never. If I can`t make it, then I will need to pursue a career elsewhere and let trading remain a hobby.
One thing that I believe has helped me tremendously is manually backtesting my method bar-by-bar on the 5-minute chart. I`ve gone through a lot of data and it has truly helped me learn price action and refine my rules and methodology. This is a practice I intend on continue doing even as I resume live trading.
Thanks for all the previous advice.
Regards,
LF
Stop asking permission on an F&*#$ing website for how and what to do about your business decisions - they are all contingent on things happening in the Market, and with your own cash-flow in your life, and an assortment of personal development issues and how you respond to money stresses, etc. The learning curve right now is HUGE, as chances are, you're own personal life and money situation is probably stressed by the real economy and you think, gee I better become a trader because doing whatever used to work, ain't working. If you are already rich, save your money and get into some kind of non-default low risk opportunities that yield something. You might even look into things that yield something OTHER than cash...like peace of mind....
Trading is harder then:
a) Self-Employment
b) Being an Elite athlete
I'm sure there is some hemorrhoid ridden degenerate gambler trader with $25k willing to say things are easy as can be and that might be so. But this ain't the Holodeck.
Quote from wiesman02:
I remembered your posts in the ES Journal a few months back. You are FAR from being able to make the leap to a full time trader. I know my words will get lost on deaf ears, but you need a few more years of experience under your belt. But you will do it, you will fail, go into debt, then have to explain to a prospective employer why you have a huge lapse in unemployment in your resume. Good luck. You will need it.
Should I take the leap and quit my job to HFT full-time,hire advanced programmers,co-locate servers to exchanges build trading infrastructue and shit?
Quote from Laissez Faire:
Well, last weekend I finally quit my soul sucking day job. It was an amazing feeling to finally be free, although I was too tired from accumulated fatigue over the last year to appreciate it fully
I have not been trading live the last months, but accumulating as much capital as humanly possible while still working on my trading and getting at least a few hours of sleep per night. I wish I had more capital, but I did manage to save up roughly 4 months of living expenses. I also have a low interest credit line that I will not hesitate on using if I need to.
I honestly think I have a good chance at making it. If not, I would not do it. It`s now or never. If I can`t make it, then I will need to pursue a career elsewhere and let trading remain a hobby.
One thing that I believe has helped me tremendously is manually backtesting my method bar-by-bar on the 5-minute chart. I`ve gone through a lot of data and it has truly helped me learn price action and refine my rules and methodology. This is a practice I intend on continue doing even as I resume live trading.
Thanks for all the previous advice.
Regards,
LF
Quote from SnakeEYE:
Should I take the leap and quit my job to HFT full-time,hire advanced programmers,co-locate servers to exchanges build trading infrastructue and shit?
Quote from volente_00:
You should have 12 months saved minimum.
If you are not profitable part time, why do you think you will be attempting full time ?
LF,i don't know how long you've been around this biz,but most(95%) that have stuck around have busted out several times,some of the posts on here are trying to warn you...don't let it discourage you,that's the price of trading,just don't think that it can't happen to you.. i would limit myself to a daily loss and a low max number of trades per day,the number of setups in a young traders journey are few,thus you should only trade a few..the other trades you make will be the times you lose...as you have noticed ,it's easy to make money,it's hard not to give it back,learning to sit on your hands is learning not to give it back
Traders who made the jump to full-time
Can any of the traders who decided to make the jump into trading full time give us an update? I'm curious to see how things are working out for you all.
Re: Traders who made the jump to full-time
Quote from kline116:
Can any of the traders who decided to make the jump into trading full time give us an update? I'm curious to see how things are working out for you all.
__________________
Spread, Relative Value, and Correlation Trading Instruction from a Professional Trader. The only thing that matters are Clients making money IN LIVE MARKETS. Why not interview my clients for yourself on an independent basis. My typical client is an outright directional trader looking to pick up an industry-recognized specialty technique. http://www.spreadprofessor.com
Quote from emg:
2 months of live trading day trading in the es. i don't think so. need to give yourself at least a yr or 2.
Your system has not prove yet.
__________________
More Than 90% of Small Traders Lose. THEY JUST LOSE!!!!!
Quote from emg:
i take that back about 2 years. It should be Higher Education is the key to become a successful trader. The reason i take that back is, i didnt realized back then how lower educated most elitetrader members are.
Never let your schooling interfere with your education.
Quote from emg:
i take that back about 2 years. It should be Higher Education is the key to become a successful trader. The reason i take that back is, i didnt realized back then how lower educated most elitetrader members are.
Quote from jo0477:
So glad I found this thread, great read and I've enjoyed all the responses. (Sorry LF, not trying to hijack your thread)
So I'm posting b/c I've been f*cked for the last time! I've had 3 corp gigs and all are/have been an absolute nightmare. I really thought (naively I'm sure) that this company was actually different... nope
This time its worse as I got royally screwed for trying to be honest and helpful. Anyone who buys into the "more than a boss but a friend" and "we care about our people - people are what matter"... bullsh!t. They will turn on you in a heartbeat and boot you in the ribs when you're down. Working hard, extra hours, excelling in your position (which I was told was the case) mean nothing. It really doesn't matter what you did last week, last month, last year and so on. You're a number on a section of the balance sheet. One company I worked for, I actually heard the president tell a VP (in a drunken haze) "I make money by finding smart but desperate people and paying them cheap". Another favorite from a regional manager "gotta keep 'em scared, the only way to keep these guys in line". Well 3 strikes and I'm out.
So If I want to trade full time, here's what I figure I'm in for. I have some experience but Like everything, it will take time. I've started jobs with zero knowledge and those have taken at least 6 mths to even get a feel for whats going on. Experience and "doing" is IMHO, the only logical direction from where I'm at.
Pros:
Freedom
Happiness (thx to the previous posters who understand that dollars are not the be all of end all)
Challenging myself: Things go south, its on me and no-one else
Doing something I love and devoting time to making a life on my terms
Making $$, no more, no less. And I don't mean millions overnight - I mean getting to a point through hard work and study where I'm living comfortably.
I can afford the capital and time - possibly my last chance in this lifetime to really give a shot at what I've wanted to for years but was too afraid to give up my paycheck.
Cons:
Odds stacked heavily against me, I completely understand this going in
Learning curve - I'm going to lose some $$, I know that this is inevitable. Mistakes will be made, I just have to apply the risk mgmt and discipline that I am currently using personally and professionally to mitigate losses.
Stress, emotion, all the human aspects of trading that inevitably rear up, I'm sure even for the veterans out there. Getting ready for high highs and low lows and how to manage this multiple times daily.
Lack of a secure, regular paycheck... but thats what I figure a wife is for
So keep the posts coming, I've enjoyed each and every viewpoint
Quote from jo0477:
So glad I found this thread, great read and I've enjoyed all the responses. (Sorry LF, not trying to hijack your thread)
So I'm posting b/c I've been f*cked for the last time! I've had 3 corp gigs and all are/have been an absolute nightmare. I really thought (naively I'm sure) that this company was actually different... nope
This time its worse as I got royally screwed for trying to be honest and helpful. Anyone who buys into the "more than a boss but a friend" and "we care about our people - people are what matter"... bullsh!t. They will turn on you in a heartbeat and boot you in the ribs when you're down. Working hard, extra hours, excelling in your position (which I was told was the case) mean nothing. It really doesn't matter what you did last week, last month, last year and so on. You're a number on a section of the balance sheet. One company I worked for, I actually heard the president tell a VP (in a drunken haze) "I make money by finding smart but desperate people and paying them cheap". Another favorite from a regional manager "gotta keep 'em scared, the only way to keep these guys in line". Well 3 strikes and I'm out.
So If I want to trade full time, here's what I figure I'm in for. I have some experience but Like everything, it will take time. I've started jobs with zero knowledge and those have taken at least 6 mths to even get a feel for whats going on. Experience and "doing" is IMHO, the only logical direction from where I'm at.
Pros:
Freedom
Happiness (thx to the previous posters who understand that dollars are not the be all of end all)
Challenging myself: Things go south, its on me and no-one else
Doing something I love and devoting time to making a life on my terms
Making $$, no more, no less. And I don't mean millions overnight - I mean getting to a point through hard work and study where I'm living comfortably.
I can afford the capital and time - possibly my last chance in this lifetime to really give a shot at what I've wanted to for years but was too afraid to give up my paycheck.
Cons:
Odds stacked heavily against me, I completely understand this going in
Learning curve - I'm going to lose some $$, I know that this is inevitable. Mistakes will be made, I just have to apply the risk mgmt and discipline that I am currently using personally and professionally to mitigate losses.
Stress, emotion, all the human aspects of trading that inevitably rear up, I'm sure even for the veterans out there. Getting ready for high highs and low lows and how to manage this multiple times daily.
Lack of a secure, regular paycheck... but thats what I figure a wife is for
So keep the posts coming, I've enjoyed each and every viewpoint
__________________
Chagi
Quote from Chagi:
So much truth in this, particularly hiring employees that really, really need the job.
For example, there are regular news articles in Canada re: approx. half of Canadians would have financial difficulties if ONE pay cheque was delayed. One!!! How much do these people depend on their employers? How likely are they to start their own businesses?
What is even better is that many of these people don't seem to have any difficulties taking one or more expensive vacations each year. And everyone needs to drive a nice car and live in an, overpriced, flashy home. The ideal wage slaves...
Quote from NetTecture:
This is ridiculous. I do IT consulting in my normal life at the moment (heck, i do only that most of the last year) and 6 months living expenses have been my baseline for a long time.
Even back when I was employed, 3 months were my safety line. I can not imagine having to borrow money for a small car repair just because it is a month's net pay.
But this is Canada / USA and starts being some of europe (though mostly BECAUSE OF the recession here). People just not acting responsible with their finances.
Quote from jo0477:
I couldn't agree more, the situation is dire and continuing to worsen ( in canada for sure, last numbers I saw it looked as if the us consumer is starting to pay down personal debt). The root of the problem is for the most part, that young people start out of the gates leveraged to the hilt!! You can't get a half decent job without an expensive degree (applicable like engineering) or an undergrad with years of experience along with that. Add in the insane property values that force first time buyers to leverage higher due to an inability to accumulate any capital. ( I'm referring to a modest home, something liveable). Finally, Canadians have this superiority complex now and believe "it can't happen to us" wrong!! I don't know how many people I've warned that cheap money can't last forever and prices cannot rise in perpetuity!! We recently purchased a new home and paid half of what we were approved for...too many people become frustrated with the bidding wars and unscrupulous realtors so they just bid up to stop the aggravation. The big bill is in the mail, just depends whose name is on it.
__________________
Chagi
Quote from emg:
2 months of live trading day trading in the es. i don't think so. need to give yourself at least a yr or 2.
Your system has not prove yet.
More than 90% of small traders lose! They just lose!
Quit your day job when you job becomes a burden to trading, not when trading is a burden to your job.
When you feel like going to the office every day starts costing you money... wait a year and then think about it.
A couple years ago I got started in trading and had very good results with my first few trades. I had several subscription services that made money (sporadically). I quit my job to pursue trading full time. It was so easy at first.
Two years later I'm working again and have basically tried everything in the market that my heart pulled me into. I believe I'm standing on the doorstep to my own personal grail, which was actually presented to me by one of my subscription services, 2 years ago. I was too new at this to recognize it.
The grail for me was to find the winning setup / system, then trying everything else and truly convincing myself that no corners can be cut, all risk must be miminized and taken into account, and the full grail must be waited for - it can not be diluted.
Not having a job accelerated the process greatly for me. I also tested the "Carnegie Secret" and it, too, accelerated the process.
You know what? Traders that survive know it's all about risk. It's all about the details. And it takes discipline.
Not having a job will force you to think about what actually works over all market conditions, not what worked great in the beginning of your trading career. Your mind will be free of negative influences from the work place where losers naturally end up. Winners seek each other out. They become consumed by their talent, and obsessed with their own personal grail.
When you find it, it may be something you would have rejected in the beginning, before going on the journey.
-contract engineer, bored with aerospace
This is actually a very good advice. I quit after I started making in one day what I make in a month on my day job.
Quote from WinstonTJ:
Quit your day job when you job becomes a burden to trading, not when trading is a burden to your job.
When you feel like going to the office every day starts costing you money... wait a year and then think about it.
Quote from PropTraderMTL:
The first 6 responses are negative... Love it hahhaha...
That probably includes some of the 97% losing $$$ in the market
To be honest OP your not going to get a proper answer to that question here. Your better off discussing it with someone in your life (work &/or social).
Whatever you do ... Give it 100% of your effort and concentration... Going in hard cocked is always going to give a less than desirable outcome
__________________
the world is so certain yet i walk on thin ice.
Well, I am quitting my day job to try trading for a living. At least to see how it goes for a little while. Only way to find out is to give it a try all out.
I'm making this choice based on lifestyle choice and wanting to do something I love for a living, rather than a need or addiction to earn money this way, which lurking this forum the past couple days seems like many wannabe traders are categorized. Well, I'm currently a wannabe, so not meant as an insult or anything. It just seems to me some people really really hate their day jobs and took a long long time to save up their hard earned money for an amount to day trade that really isn't enough to do so properly. Or have a mindset it is "get rich quick", which I don't think it is at all... It's much faster to build a viable business and earn equity that way (i.e. Zuckerberg, Jobs, Gates, and many others that maybe not as well known). So I have no illusion of this.
I am interested to find out how many people are like me who are giving up a very good day job (I'm currently compensated $120k to $160k per year) to go day trading. I've seen a few member's posts that implied they are struggling a bit in their day job (not earning much $) and hence wanting to do day trading. I am not expecting to make as much day trading. in fact, I'm expecting if i make half that, I'll be happy. But I'm measuring success by the life style choice. That is, I want to get experienced enough to go cruise control on this, and doesn't affect me psychologically/emotional that much, be with young family more often in the next few years. Less travel, more at home in both body and mind.
Time will tell if I can implement my "system", which I know works, but don't know if disciplined in psychology and emotion. I really don't think I'll be as affected psych/emot as others seem like it would that much... Anyway, we shall see! I hope I make it out of the 99% wannabe batch, and become the elite several hundred! Surely, it won't take very long to find out.
I day trade the ES and TF
I quit my job to day trade futures after only 6 month of profitable trading because I hated my day job. All I did was saved my money so I had quite a bit in the reserves. I couldn't find employment so I decided I would chance making money in the futures market while I looked for another job. I gave up on finding another job and stuck with my trading career to this day (it has been 2 years). Becoming a full time day trader (if you want to call it that, I work roughly 3 hours a day) is feasible but you need to make sure you have some money saved up and are not living pay check to pay check. It is also nice to have a spouse that can provide you with low cost health benefits from their employer. If you do not have money saved up though, I would consider saving some first because chances are you will blow you account up and FAIL!
Re: I day trade the ES and TF
Quote from wilsorama:
chances are you will blow you account up and FAIL!
most likely because they don't have any type of plan when going in. It really isn't that hard after you figure out your method...
Quote from Laissez Faire:
Well, last weekend I finally quit my soul sucking day job. LF
Quote from beachhouse:
1. Are you trading?
2. Are you making money trading?
I have the same quandary. I think I'm close, but would appreciate some thoughts from people that have made the move.
My day job pays about 150k and i have a non-working wife and 2 kids. I'm 40.
I'm a registered CTA and have traded accounts for about 3 years. I have about 750k under management of which about 1/3 is personal.
I day trade mainly forex futues. USD, AUD, EUR and not much else. The odd CL or YM thrown in but with correlations these days, the AUD pretty much serves the purpose. There is no doubt that my work limits my trading and therefore I tend to trade Asia and Europe late at night.
Last year was my best year ever but am wary of recency bias. Since becoming a CTA I've been reasonably consistent but have some big draw downs. 30-40%
Any and all advice appreciated.
This interesting topic.
I advise to trader......... why you ask for help on internet forum? You dont know who is who.
I advice find real trader and ask him. Go to NY, London, HK, etc major money center and find real trader.
Quote from Pigsky:
This interesting topic.
I advise to trader......... why you ask for help on internet forum? You dont know who is who.
I advice find real trader and ask him. Go to NY, London, HK, etc major money center and find real trader.
Quote from AUDSpot:
I have the same quandary. I think I'm close, but would appreciate some thoughts from people that have made the move.
My day job pays about 150k and i have a non-working wife and 2 kids. I'm 40.
I'm a registered CTA and have traded accounts for about 3 years. I have about 750k under management of which about 1/3 is personal.
I day trade mainly forex futues. USD, AUD, EUR and not much else. The odd CL or YM thrown in but with correlations these days, the AUD pretty much serves the purpose. There is no doubt that my work limits my trading and therefore I tend to trade Asia and Europe late at night.
Last year was my best year ever but am wary of recency bias. Since becoming a CTA I've been reasonably consistent but have some big draw downs. 30-40%
Any and all advice appreciated.
__________________
HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?
Bud Fox
Wall Street
Quote from Laissez Faire:
Yes, yes, and that`s all you need to know.
__________________
HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?
Bud Fox
Wall Street
Quote from Laissez Faire:
Yes, yes, and that`s all you need to know.
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