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Posted by infiniwang on 08-03-09 01:54 AM:

Informal ranking of Chicago prop firms

I'm trying to get a clearer picture of some firms in Chicago. I just don't understand the landscape in Chicago, and Google proves to be useless. I found some employee home pages, but they're college kids who blog more about their escapades in Africa or World of Warcraft than anything about the prop-scape.

Anyone care to rank the following firms in terms of best places to work for and best places to make money?

Transmarket, Gelber, Jump, DRW, Getco, Sun, Spot, Optiver, Chicago Trading Co., ...

1) Best place to work for
2) Market share in equities, fixed income, futures, energy, etc. (estimates/guesses, don't expect people to dump the real numbers)
3) Profitability for an employee (again, guesses)
4) Easiest place to get angry and burn out (this is BY FAR the most important metric for me, as I am a happy person now and never wish to be burned out again)
5) Management

Feel free to add your own firms, but please tell me of all the rumors you know either through private messages or here in this thread.

Posted by doylethecr00k on 08-04-09 02:51 AM:

Tower Hill Trading is by far the best.

We might not have the best rates but I am sure those rates you hear about don't really exist.

Posted by Chart_Precocity on 08-04-09 03:38 AM:

Not many good trading firms here in Chicago but plenty of great traders. Six of us trade out of a nice office on State. Have been here for 3 years. Make you own way and tell the prop firms to "take a hike".

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Posted by TheROTrader on 08-04-09 03:48 AM:

Any others you guys know about besides the ones listed??

Posted by rufus_4000 on 08-04-09 04:46 AM:

I am sorry, but I couldn't resist. As a former academic myself (handful of journal publications to my name, and most not related to finance), I am curious to what your actual academic background is. What's your area of mathematical research?

Your posts has been remarkably lacking in any intellectual depth and analytical abilities. Instead, you just want to "jump" to some easy conclusion, without any rigorous kind of "background research", and formulating a methodology. In fact, since you are still a student, doing a SCI search on the firm names you mentioned, would be an excellent way to get an idea of what kind of problems they are abstracting out.

Your inability to abstract and have an analytical discussion (when if you are getting your phd, is something that is drilled into you, for 10+ yrs), makes me wonder if you have had any real academic background at all (especially mathematics! one of the most rigorous sciences). I apologize if this seems insulting in advance. You also mentioned you are asian, and the asian graduate students I have met / talked to, tend to "overly analytical", and even more reluctant to "jump to some unproven conclusions without stating their assumptions".

This is all I will say on this matter, just an intellectual curiosity (you know what that is like), that's all.

Posted by switze22 on 08-05-09 03:10 PM:

DRW is suppose to be really good but getting in takes passing several math tests, and then getting interviewed.

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Posted by dumb_mother on 08-05-09 03:32 PM:

i interviewed at DRW and the 1st and 2nd round people asked the same logic questions- being sneaky i surely didn't point that out and answered them flawlessly the 2nd time; whereas i had stumbled the first. the next day they called me back and scolded me for not revealing that fact and that was that. you'd think they'd appreciate someone using an edge, wouldn't you?

Posted by TSGannGalt on 08-05-09 04:40 PM:

1. Depends... Because... From the OP's previous posts, he seems like an academic dude... most likely, more knowledgeable than most in ET... So most of the Chicago props would not be able to keep up with his requirements further on leading him leading the firm.

So...

- If you have a good background like strong IT or Quant. skills... I'd hit the hedge funds like Citadel.

- An average dude should prolly hit guys like CTC (owned by BoA) or Optiver (I've heard that going to EUR for training was kewl... they take good care of you... no I don't mean the drugs... just nice people...) doing Options MM.

- If you don't have any skills or knowledge, expecting a firm to train you... you're pretty much have no chance. The prop. culture in Chicago is pretty much like, "OK... here's your computer, start making money." And they're usually outright E-mini props. who gives you very little advantages over retail...

- If you have a track record or a reasonable idea to pitch, I would hit Gelber. The firm give you a small office space and some capital and let's you do your thing. They treat you like an internal startup hedge fund. There's quite a few HF start up that made their start with Gelber's seed account. Also, they're still trying to keep their operations strong within the IR cash/futures so if you like dealing with yields and IR products... it might be good to consider.

I was deep in the business in Chicago until 3 years ago... and I visit the city every once in a while (not to mention, I'll be there in a few weeks before the weather gets all crappy...) so I have some idea that much hasn't changed...

In another words, the ranking solely depends on the trader and their situation. Seriously... you're in a great city to start your career if you have what it takes. It was not easy, working night jobs and struggling for a while, but it's where I got started, and where I gained access to real life examples to mimic.

2. Seriously... I'd try hitting a hedgie or IB prop, from your background. I've read you're getting interviews... No chance of getting your foot in the door yet?

Good luck.

PS. I'm interested in reading your response to rufus. I agree with him but I'm not going to make any assumptions.

Posted by infiniwang on 08-05-09 05:12 PM:

Quote from rufus_4000:

I am sorry, but I couldn't resist. As a former academic myself (handful of journal publications to my name, and most not related to finance), I am curious to what your actual academic background is. What's your area of mathematical research?

Your posts has been remarkably lacking in any intellectual depth and analytical abilities. Instead, you just want to "jump" to some easy conclusion, without any rigorous kind of "background research", and formulating a methodology. In fact, since you are still a student, doing a SCI search on the firm names you mentioned, would be an excellent way to get an idea of what kind of problems they are abstracting out.

Your inability to abstract and have an analytical discussion (when if you are getting your phd, is something that is drilled into you, for 10+ yrs), makes me wonder if you have had any real academic background at all (especially mathematics! one of the most rigorous sciences). I apologize if this seems insulting in advance. You also mentioned you are asian, and the asian graduate students I have met / talked to, tend to "overly analytical", and even more reluctant to "jump to some unproven conclusions without stating their assumptions".

This is all I will say on this matter, just an intellectual curiosity (you know what that is like), that's all.

The thread is titled 'informal', not 'deep dissertations to the satisfaction of overlord rufus_4000'. That having been said, this is the internet and I have the freedom to be a dumbass, with or without a PhD.

Posted by jim c on 08-05-09 05:18 PM:

Quote from TSGannGalt:

1. Depends... Because... From the OP's previous posts, he seems like an academic dude... most likely, more knowledgeable than most in ET... So most of the Chicago props would not be able to keep up with his requirements further on leading him leading the firm.

So...

- If you have a good background like strong IT or Quant. skills... I'd hit the hedge funds like Citadel.

- An average dude should prolly hit guys like CTC (owned by BoA) or Optiver (I've heard that going to EUR for training was kewl... they take good care of you... no I don't mean the drugs... just nice people...) doing Options MM.

- If you don't have any skills or knowledge, expecting a firm to train you... you're pretty much have no chance. The prop. culture in Chicago is pretty much like, "OK... here's your computer, start making money." And they're usually outright E-mini props. who gives you very little advantages over retail...

- If you have a track record or a reasonable idea to pitch, I would hit Gelber. The firm give you a small office space and some capital and let's you do your thing. They treat you like an internal startup hedge fund. There's quite a few HF start up that made their start with Gelber's seed account. Also, they're still trying to keep their operations strong within the IR cash/futures so if you like dealing with yields and IR products... it might be good to consider.

I was deep in the business in Chicago until 3 years ago... and I visit the city every once in a while (not to mention, I'll be there in a few weeks before the weather gets all crappy...) so I have some idea that much hasn't changed...

In another words, the ranking solely depends on the trader and their situation. Seriously... you're in a great city to start your career if you have what it takes. It was not easy, working night jobs and struggling for a while, but it's where I got started, and where I gained access to real life examples to mimic.

2. Seriously... I'd try hitting a hedgie or IB prop, from your background. I've read you're getting interviews... No chance of getting your foot in the door yet?

Good luck.

PS. I'm interested in reading your response to rufus. I agree with him but I'm not going to make any assumptions.

CTC is not owned by BoA.

__________________
JC

Posted by swiftmike99 on 08-05-09 05:39 PM:

Quote from dumb_mother:

i interviewed at DRW and the 1st and 2nd round people asked the same logic questions- being sneaky i surely didn't point that out and answered them flawlessly the 2nd time; whereas i had stumbled the first. the next day they called me back and scolded me for not revealing that fact and that was that. you'd think they'd appreciate someone using an edge, wouldn't you?

What edge? Thinking that a company who intreviewed 100s of applicants would make such a stupid error?

Posted by TSGannGalt on 08-05-09 11:19 PM:

Quote from jim c:

CTC is not owned by BoA.

Sorry... you're right. After looking into it, I found out that my sources were wrong.

http://www.investmentnews.com/artic...8/REG/247052475

Posted by jjchoi on 06-22-10 03:37 PM:

ranking

Here's my ranking of prop trading firms. most of them are in chicago.

1. GETCO
2. Jane Street (they're in NYC)
3. DRW
4. SIG (offices in multiple cities)
5. Jump
6. IMC
7. Optiver
8. Transmarket
9. Chicago Trading Company
10. Sun
11. Ronin
12. Spot

Posted by WinstonTJ on 06-22-10 04:26 PM:

Re: ranking

Quote from jjchoi:

Here's my ranking of prop trading firms. most of them are in chicago.

1. GETCO
2. Jane Street (they're in NYC)
3. DRW
4. SIG (offices in multiple cities)
5. Jump
6. IMC
7. Optiver
8. Transmarket
9. Chicago Trading Company
10. Sun
11. Ronin
12. Spot

Only 15 posts since 2005?

I'm not in the HFT space but I know to stay out of GETCO's way. I'd move Sun above Jane St. and add New Edge, Bump IMC up even with Sun & New Edge and I really have no idea where Chicago is headed now that MOC is dead and TAS is dying.

Any insight?

Posted by jjchoi on 06-22-10 05:38 PM:

Re: Re: ranking

Quote from WinstonTJ:

Only 15 posts since 2005?

I'm not in the HFT space but I know to stay out of GETCO's way. I'd move Sun above Jane St. and add New Edge, Bump IMC up even with Sun & New Edge and I really have no idea where Chicago is headed now that MOC is dead and TAS is dying.

Any insight?

Yes, GETCO is an amazing shop. They're dominating HFT of equities. Compensation is ridiculous, and very few people ever leave the firm. They're super secretive for obvious reasons. In terms of difficulty of getting a job there, I would say it's one of the toughest places to get into, alongside citadel, de shaw, rentech, and a few other quant funds.

Sun made some notable hires, including one of the main quants from AQR Capital. But their performance hasn't been that great. Jane street is definitely above them.

Posted by rosy2 on 06-24-10 12:28 AM:

Quote from WinstonTJ:

Only 15 posts since 2005?

I'm not in the HFT space but I know to stay out of GETCO's way. I'd move Sun above Jane St. and add New Edge, Bump IMC up even with Sun & New Edge and I really have no idea where Chicago is headed now that MOC is dead and TAS is dying.

Any insight?

newedge is a brokerage firm (in refcos old building). they dont trade.

Quote from jjchoi:

I would say it's one of the toughest places to get into, alongside citadel, de shaw, rentech, and a few other quant funds.

obviously you dont know one of those firms at all

Posted by WinstonTJ on 06-24-10 12:11 PM:

Quote from rosy2:

newedge is a brokerage firm (in refcos old building). they dont trade.

Really? I'm 100% certain that Newedge is an AP and MM in certain levered ETFs - but then again so is Timber Hill and they don't do much trading outside of the Short Desk for IB.

Where is EWT on that list?

Posted by bone on 06-25-10 03:22 AM:

NewEdge clears in the United States (Soc Gen and CA conglomerate/transformation).

I clientele clearing them, primarily for LME. $3M minimum account size.

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Posted by bone on 06-25-10 03:24 AM:

Clarification, I have clientele clearing NewEdge - primarily for direct ECN access to LME.

Posted by bone on 06-25-10 03:34 AM:

Update on the Chicago Business Model: empty arcades, no more draw salaries, nobody left who still fades one sigma moves, continue to stack the order book for implied spread markets in the interest rate markets right at the market open - offer 1,000 and get 35 on pro-rata order matching.

Posted by rodmike9 on 07-13-10 07:34 PM:

Quote from bone:

Update on the Chicago Business Model: empty arcades, no more draw salaries, nobody left who still fades one sigma moves, continue to stack the order book for implied spread markets in the interest rate markets right at the market open - offer 1,000 and get 35 on pro-rata order matching.

what firms have u surveyed? I know a few shops who still offer "draw salaries"

Posted by bone on 07-13-10 08:00 PM:

As of today, I do not know of a single prop firm in Chicago who are currently and actively hiring new traders on a short-term contract with a draw salary. I used to know about 50 of them. It is possible for an experienced trader to negotiate for a few months of draw if the track record warrants it.

Some firms like Traditum, DRW, and a handful of others may have taken in some grads recently but if so they were not publicizing the fact to the degree they did in the past. I'm not saying it isn't a certainty - I'm saying it is a real scarcity.

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