Elite Trader

Elite Trader (http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/index.php)
-   Prop Firms (http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=15)
-   -   WTS Proprietary Trading Group (http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?t=170282)

exoticoption924 Jul 16th, 2009 03:29 PM

WTS Proprietary Trading Group
 
I attended the WTS Open House in NYC on July 15 and here are my general impressions as well as some details on their program.

- Canadian firm
- Their specialty is what is referred to as "high frequency trading"
- No capital deposit required
- Commission rate is 20 cents per 1000 shares
- $1500 training fee
- $200/month Sterling software fee
- 50/50 profit split

Overall, the presentation was OK, although the acoustics were not so great and toward the end it got annoying because people were asking so many random questions, most of which I could not comprehend. The person speaking (I believe he was the co-owner of the firm, Canadian gentlemen) seemed to present a rosier picture of the business than I thought was justified (e.g. "we know how to make money and we will teach you, etc..."). However, these type of comments were tempered by him saying, among other things, that only 2 or 3 out of 10 people will make really good money. It didn't appear that he was trying to get people to sign on the proverbial dotted line and hand over their money. In fact, he made it a point to mention that they don't take just anyone, that there is an interview process and if they think you have what it takes you will get hired. In other words, you can't just come off the street and hand over $1500 and start training/trading with them. I have no way of knowing whether this is accurate as I'd need to see what % of the applicants they reject; perhaps some current WTS traders can shed some light.

Their specialty is "high frequency trading (HFT)," which from what I can gather seems to be similar but slightly different from day trading. I'm not clear on what exactly differentiates HFT from day trading, but perhaps someone with a good understanding of the two can explain it to me.

The speaker did stress that there is no capital contribution required. Even the commissions will come out of your PnL (if you make no money, WTS eats the commission) , which surprised me because I thought at the very least they'd want to make money on the commissions. Also, they require you to trade a minimum of 100,000 shares per day (2 million shares a month). Then there is the matter of the $1500 training fee and $200/month software fee. First off, the $200/month software fee can also come out of your PnL. I also distinctly recall the speaker saying that even if we don't have the $1500, it is possible to pay a small upfront amount and have the rest come out your PnL. One thing to note however: The losses, if I'm not mistaken, do carry over each month. In other words, if you have a $1000 loss one month and the next month you have a $3000 gain, your net gain for that month would be reduced by the $1000 loss from the previous month.

On the surface all this appears to be a decent deal for the NEW trader. From everything I heard at the open house, WTS definitely has a strong incentive to see that you become a profitable trader. In other words, they're not really gaining much, if anything, if you are there for a month or two and end up sucking. The downside is that it will likely take you a year or so (if at all you are destined to be profitable trader) to start making enough to pay your monthly living expenses. So, my guess is that you'll need another job for the first year to keep yourself afloat.

I'm really only interested in hearing from current WTS traders about anything I've mentioned above. Specifically, I'd like to know about the interview. Are they really that selective? And if so, what do they look for in their new traders? I am scheduled for an interview with them next week.

swiftmike99 Jul 16th, 2009 05:02 PM

Re: WTS Proprietary Trading Group
 
Quote:

Quote from exoticoption924:

I attended the WTS Open House in NYC on July 15 and here are my general impressions as well as some details on their program.

- Canadian firm
- Their specialty is what is referred to as "high frequency trading"
- No capital deposit required
- Commission rate is 20 cents per 1000 shares
- $1500 training fee
- $200/month Sterling software fee
- 50/50 profit split

Overall, the presentation was OK, although the acoustics were not so great and toward the end it got annoying because people were asking so many random questions, most of which I could not comprehend. The person speaking (I believe he was the co-owner of the firm, Canadian gentlemen) seemed to present a rosier picture of the business than I thought was justified (e.g. "we know how to make money and we will teach you, etc..."). However, these type of comments were tempered by him saying, among other things, that only 2 or 3 out of 10 people will make really good money. It didn't appear that he was trying to get people to sign on the proverbial dotted line and hand over their money. In fact, he made it a point to mention that they don't take just anyone, that there is an interview process and if they think you have what it takes you will get hired. In other words, you can't just come off the street and hand over $1500 and start training/trading with them. I have no way of knowing whether this is accurate as I'd need to see what % of the applicants they reject; perhaps some current WTS traders can shed some light.

Their specialty is "high frequency trading (HFT)," which from what I can gather seems to be similar but slightly different from day trading. I'm not clear on what exactly differentiates HFT from day trading, but perhaps someone with a good understanding of the two can explain it to me.

The speaker did stress that there is no capital contribution required. Even the commissions will come out of your PnL (if you make no money, WTS eats the commission) , which surprised me because I thought at the very least they'd want to make money on the commissions. Also, they require you to trade a minimum of 100,000 shares per day (2 million shares a month). Then there is the matter of the $1500 training fee and $200/month software fee. First off, the $200/month software fee can also come out of your PnL. I also distinctly recall the speaker saying that even if we don't have the $1500, it is possible to pay a small upfront amount and have the rest come out your PnL. One thing to note however: The losses, if I'm not mistaken, do carry over each month. In other words, if you have a $1000 loss one month and the next month you have a $3000 gain, your net gain for that month would be reduced by the $1000 loss from the previous month.

On the surface all this appears to be a decent deal for the NEW trader. From everything I heard at the open house, WTS definitely has a strong incentive to see that you become a profitable trader. In other words, they're not really gaining much, if anything, if you are there for a month or two and end up sucking. The downside is that it will likely take you a year or so (if at all you are destined to be profitable trader) to start making enough to pay your monthly living expenses. So, my guess is that you'll need another job for the first year to keep yourself afloat.

I'm really only interested in hearing from current WTS traders about anything I've mentioned above. Specifically, I'd like to know about the interview. Are they really that selective? And if so, what do they look for in their new traders? I am scheduled for an interview with them next week.

Wow what a great company how do I sign up. I hope Barron dosen't delete this thread because you didn't post your real name and are shilling for the company. So barron no worries this is owner of WTS Simmon Liberati aka "the crook" who is doing this. No need to delete this thread when you have his real name.

dpt444 Jul 16th, 2009 10:40 PM

Re: Re: WTS Proprietary Trading Group
 
Quote:

Quote from swiftmike99:

Wow what a great company how do I sign up. I hope Barron dosen't delete this thread because you didn't post your real name and are shilling for the company. So barron no worries this is owner of WTS Simmon Liberati aka "the crook" who is doing this. No need to delete this thread when you have his real name.
Hi Swiftmike

I actually attended the open house last night and was impressed after meeting everyone and what they offered traders. I have a friend that trades there and seems to like it so far. I have scheduled an interview while I was there. You don't seem to thrilled about this company, is there something I should know about?

thanks

exoticoption924 Jul 17th, 2009 12:30 AM

WTS Proprietary Trading Group
 
Quote:

Quote from swiftmike99:

Wow what a great company how do I sign up. I hope Barron dosen't delete this thread because you didn't post your real name and are shilling for the company. So barron no worries this is owner of WTS Simmon Liberati aka "the crook" who is doing this. No need to delete this thread when you have his real name.
This is just ridiculous. The majority of the posts here about prop firms are absolutely negative. While some of the negativity may be justified in some cases, the members of this site have been going overboard.

Honestly, just STFU unless you can articulate a strong argument based on actual facts. People here are so bitter its just counterproductive.

I was just one of the attendees of the open house who is very interested in trading. I posted a detailed account of the presentation to get feedback from CURRENT WTS Traders. If you have some FACTUAL information about WTS that differs from what I have posted, then by all means share it. But these baseless negative posts need to be removed by the moderator.

dragon1949 Jul 17th, 2009 03:36 AM

I am in training now in SanFrancisco WTS and I just want to say WTS is awesome for a new trader like me. BTW, because the owner and some top employees of WTS worked for Swift before, it is no surprise to me that the user Swiftmike always publish some negative comment about WTS. And to be honest, his comments did make me a little bit nervous until I've been through half way training. Dude, you really need to stop spreading hate.

Szeven Jul 17th, 2009 12:28 PM

This is so just hilarious for so many reasons.

First of all, props to WTS for creating such a stir regarding their company and training. The difference seems to be that Title or Swift never expanded to no deposit prop in the States. Seeing as Peter Beck is such a good businessman, there must be a reason. Either Simon doesnt know it, doesnt care, or is smarter than PB (not likely).

Secondly, (and even i am guilty of this) its not 'no deposit prop'. Its 1500 deposit. Its just a game of statistics. They make it sound like a job, so that when you suck, they can kick you out. I guarantee the 1500 pays for all your losses, a few months of sterling, and some or all of the firms office expenses. Sure they might lose some on more, less on others, but you wont go there, get a $500 stop, and lose 5k. You will likely get a small stop (who knows what it is these days) of say $50 and go from there, upping it as you get better.

Thirdly, LOL! at HFT acronym. That is just hilarious. Thats like calling a garbage man a sanitation engineer or a cashier a FTA (Financial Transaction Associate)... its just a load of shit to make it sound better.

Bottom line: the game hasnt changed. WTS is revolutionizing nothing. It always has been, and always will be statistics. WTS might think they have some bullshit gimmick or whatever right now, but believe me, nothing lasts. 1 or 2 out of 10 will make it, yes, 1 out of 20 or so will make a decent living. 1 out of 100 will get rich. Its worth the shot if you love it. This was true in 2002, 2005 2009 and will be true in 2012. (unless the world ends!)

Good luck


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:56 PM.