Forums - Why don't Americans save?

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Posted by Debaser82 on 12-28-08 06:59 PM:

Why don't Americans save?

I live in that pighole of a socialist europe where the government takes 50% of your salary, you don't get to work for your own pockets untill after the summer, and still people over here save more then 10% of their income.

What gives?

Is it because the FED has run a more inflationary course then the ECB eroding the purchasing power of the dollar causing people to search for alternatives?

Or is it the US spirit where people are always on the outlook for the next bubble to grow so they can hop on and become rich overnight?

Or is this how capitalism is supposed to work? If you can't cut it bad luck and good night see you in the souplines?

Posted by hoodooman on 12-28-08 07:06 PM:

Migrants are risk takers. Its in the genes, I guess.

Posted by murray t turtle on 12-28-08 08:30 PM:

Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from Debaser82:

I live in that pighole of a socialist europe where the government takes 50% of your salary, you don't get to work for your own pockets untill after the summer, and still people over here save more then 10% of their income.

What gives?

Is it because the FED has run a more inflationary course then the ECB eroding the purchasing power of the dollar causing people to search for alternatives?

Or is it the US spirit where people are always on the outlook for the next bubble to grow so they can hop on and become rich overnight?

Or is this how capitalism is supposed to work? If you can't cut it bad luck and good night see you in the souplines?

==================
DeBe;
Well several reasons;
First[1st] there is more saving than reported by liars/news media;
example,brokerage accounts, derivative accounts,
derivative accounts with FDICsweeps[FED bank sweeps]. Besides Solomon said an ant saves for the winters . So some save.

Then you have ladies that took $10,ooo out of FED insured bank, & goofed,put in in cracker box, accidently took cracker box to store for refund .......Ouch/pain.

Lastly with all due respect to big banks like Citigroup,
Lehman Bros,
Bear Stearns,
Morgan Stanley- they need to advertise savings accounts much more, much more.My dad was a commercial /retail banker & he got plenty of savings account business..........................................................................Cool.

__________________
murray t turtle,nickname,not an alias

Posted by sc85 on 12-28-08 08:34 PM:

Because Americans are more confident about their future than any other groups.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-28-08 08:48 PM:

Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from Debaser82:
I live in that pighole of a socialist europe where the government takes 50% of your salary, you don't get to work for your own pockets untill after the summer, and still people over here save more then 10% of their income.

What gives?

Is it because the FED has run a more inflationary course then the ECB eroding the purchasing power of the dollar causing people to search for alternatives?

Or is it the US spirit where people are always on the outlook for the next bubble to grow so they can hop on and become rich overnight?

Or is this how capitalism is supposed to work? If you can't cut it bad luck and good night see you in the souplines?

Well most people (probably most of them over 40) will probably say it’s because Americans lead extravagant lifestyles, which may be true for some, but not most, in my opinion. But ask yourself, how much can you save when you’re making $10 an hour and health insurance is hundreds a month. Food and energy prices are continuously going up (until recently). Credit card companies take your interest rate from 8-24% for no reason other than they can and one bedroom apartments in the suburbs that cost $1100 a month. Etc. etc. Then after you’ve worked hard and your employer never seems to have any money for a raise even though they are continuously raising their prices.

Then people are told that to get ahead, you need to go to college and get an eduaction, which of course is perpetaully costing more as well. So you have to take out student loans, which hinder your ability to save once you graduate. And then it goes on and on like this until now when we have a negative savings rate.

I have never been to Europe and don’t know much about policies there, but I understand that the government (you the taxpayer) pays for a lot of the things that we pay ourselves in America. I don’t see how this could ever be the most efficient way of doing this, but I guess somehow people are able to save more over there. Imagine how much more the US government could give back in tax cuts, repayment of the national debt, or more social programs to help people if we stopped spending nearly $1 trillion (by some estimates) a year on our distorted foreign policy and bloated military spread throughout the whole world for reasons nobody seems to understand.

I don’t mean to rant here or anything, but you asked a qustion and this is my opinion.

Posted by operator on 12-28-08 08:49 PM:

people are always trying to keep up with the jones...instead of living within their means....

Posted by nutmeg on 12-28-08 09:12 PM:

Why don't Americans save?
-----------------

Question. Save for what? How much? To do what with?

Save up for a house? A car? A vacation?

You can buy almost anything you want on credit or low down payment or terms. (Well you could, since we are talking about the past).

People have vacation clubs, Christmas clubs, they depend on tax refund checks as a sort of forced savings.

How much are you talking here in the way of savings?

For retirement? People don't plan for retirement until they are about 50. Basically because they have no money to save because they have been living, the two car, big house and toys lifestyle, that's if they survive a divorce or two.

People have paid up life insurance they can borrow from.

People sell their house. live off any leftover proceeds and SS when they retire. They downsize and rightly so, they need less.

Do you know where savings go? Medical bills, spend it down so you qualify for medicare, a nursing home or long term care if you're sick, and you will be, because something is going to kill ya and take all your savings.

Posted by Sam Mcgee on 12-28-08 09:19 PM:

I've written it here before, the reason that Americans spend too much is because of the amount of television that they watch. Look up any statistics for the hours of television and you'll see that Americans watch almost double the amount compared to any other county. Why do Americans watch so much TV? It's because most of the best programs are made for the largest market place, the United States. Other countries are not as interested in American TV because it isn't made for them.

I lived in the United States for a while about 20 years ago and that was the biggest difference I noticed, after dinner just about everyone was planted in front of the TV there.

The other thing that leads to excess consumption in the United States is that their mortgages are tax deductible. What happens is that as soon as some equity is built up in a home, people use that as a source of extra money to spend. In a round about way, the American government is subsidizing excess consumption with these tax deductions. The amount of money that the United States government has given up for these tax deductions is roughly the same amount that the government is in debt.

Consumption is good to build up an economy but when it gets excessive you end up with a trade imbalance. The money sent out of the country eventually has to come back to purchase something from the United States. What's left to purchase? The United States doesn't manufacture much anymore. The only thing of value left in the United States are shares of stock owned by it's citizens.

In a round about way, the United States is being defeated in an economic war. Asia has no need to engage in a physical war with the US to take them over, they'll just buy them. I don't think that Asia planned it that way but they will certainly benefit from the situation. They would be wise to keep the price low for all televisions they send over.

__________________
There are strange things done 'neath the midnight sun
By the men who moil for gold

Posted by killthesunshine on 12-28-08 09:44 PM:

what are you saving for..the next life?
a newsflash.. you can't take it where you are going

you can't drive it, you can't spend it, you can' t taste it!

so go save it for .... god?
does he need it?

Posted by EMRGLOBAL on 12-28-08 10:50 PM:

Savings rate among who? I know plenty of people who "Save" or make their money work for them.

Savings rate for the Middle Class is negitive because they rather pretend to have money than actually save for item X. Credit was created for the Middle Class and they learned how to abuse it.

However, there is a % of the middle class that does save, who do live within their means. However, they are punished when the rest of the idiots outspend their earnings, get into massive debt and we end up with rates close to Zero.

So, why Save? Either take risk to increase your return or spend it. The next 20 years, savings account will be worthless as will money markets and Cds.

Euro land, your socialist society is in a far worse off position than the US. Your average DEBT for social services, for all those "Perks" as you would say, has created far more DEBT for your nation than what America has accumulated. So, while you save, your saving for what? Your life conditions will be far worse of in the next decade. Dark Ages are returning to Euro land for sure.

So, I would say, buy up property, Land. Not Homes. Put your money in hard assets as a savings tool. Then spend it and enjoy it when you reach your level of return that you like.

Posted by harkm on 12-28-08 10:56 PM:

Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Well most people (probably most of them over 40) will probably say it’s because Americans lead extravagant lifestyles, which may be true for some, but not most, in my opinion. But ask yourself, how much can you save when you’re making $10 an hour and health insurance is hundreds a month. Food and energy prices are continuously going up (until recently). Credit card companies take your interest rate from 8-24% for no reason other than they can and one bedroom apartments in the suburbs that cost $1100 a month. Etc. etc. Then after you’ve worked hard and your employer never seems to have any money for a raise even though they are continuously raising their prices.

Then people are told that to get ahead, you need to go to college and get an eduaction, which of course is perpetaully costing more as well. So you have to take out student loans, which hinder your ability to save once you graduate. And then it goes on and on like this until now when we have a negative savings rate.

I have never been to Europe and don’t know much about policies there, but I understand that the government (you the taxpayer) pays for a lot of the things that we pay ourselves in America. I don’t see how this could ever be the most efficient way of doing this, but I guess somehow people are able to save more over there. Imagine how much more the US government could give back in tax cuts, repayment of the national debt, or more social programs to help people if we stopped spending nearly $1 trillion (by some estimates) a year on our distorted foreign policy and bloated military spread throughout the whole world for reasons nobody seems to understand.

I don’t mean to rant here or anything, but you asked a qustion and this is my opinion.

Where did you live in the US? In Texas everybody is outside walking and running. Also, the gyms are packed. The problem is that nothing bad has happened here in so long that most are complacent. People are saving like crazy right now though.

Posted by drcha on 12-28-08 11:59 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Well here goes.. you may go ahead and shoot me if you like.....I might sound like some kook living in a hut in Montana.

There is a pervasive sense of entitlement in this country. Yes, there are a few savers here and there, but the more prevalent attitute is: I'm entitled to my job, entitled to own a fancy car, entitled to all the stuff I see on TV, entitled to own a 5000-sf house, etc.... and now I guess we are all entitled to get bailed out of whatever. So those who chose to buy only what they can clearly see the way to pay for, will pay for those who were profligate.

Where does it stem from? One poster commented on our status as a nation of migrants, thus risk-takers. There may be some truth to this.

Mostly, though, I think we believe that we are entitled to everything because we are taught that pattern of thinking from an early age. Childrearing has been child-indulging for the last fifty years or so. People are no longer taught to work hard, save, or any of that stuff, which is now considered very old-fashioned and foolish.

People I know tell me that they have to buy their kids everything because the kid's friends all have these things. What they are teaching their kids, subtly, is that it's important to keep up with the Jones, and that what other people think about your economic status is important. Do we really want to teach them that?

Furthermore, childrearing is done in a vacuum. Unlike Europe, we live hundreds or thousand of miles from our relatives, so there is no extended family to influence the raising of children or to shape their attitudes. The children are all so busy playing with their expensive computer toy-thing-ies in their 5000 sf homes that they don't interact with the world enough to get a view of how others live differently. The only adult models that kids have are their parents and possibly a teacher or coach; there are no mitigating opinions or influences from other relatives or the rest of society. Of course, there are plenty of criminals and narcissists on TV for them to watch.

My guess is that this indulgence stems from both parents working. I don't suggest we go back to the 50's, but maybe there is some way for people to at least stop throwing things at their kids in lieu of spending time with them. My observation has been that I see a profound difference in these attitudes between people who are my age (52) and younger, as opposed to the generation before me. My older friends just don't seem to believe that the world owes them anything.

I think my parents, who made their share of mistakes, got this absolutely right. When I was young I used to wish I had a dollar for every damn time they said to me, "We're not going to buy that. If you want it you will have to save your allowance, get a job, etc..." So now, I DO have a dollar for every time they said that to me. Strangely, it turns out that, while I could buy a hot car and all the crap I see on TV, most of it's just not that interesting to me. Go figure.

Posted by gnome on 12-29-08 12:27 AM:

I believe much of it stems from the US Gummint... they encourage profligate spending and punish saving. The REAL reason the Gummint does that is so it all masks the effects of deficit spending.

When I was a kid, my "things" were a bicycle, basketball, ball glove, chess set, fishing pole... (none of which were bought on credit)

I made spending money by washing neighbors cars, mowing lawns, shoveling snow, babysitting... do kids do these things today?

__________________
Men are like wine. They start out as grapes, but then it takes a woman to stomp the crap out of them until they're decent enough to have dinner with.

Posted by mogar on 12-29-08 12:50 AM:

Why so surprised?

When I was a teenager back in the late 60 early 70’s a welder at any old shop could own and pay for a house, have a wife and kids and he could make it. Also I was earning about 6 to 7% on a savings account.

Today you need two good paychecks to make it. Savings accounts pay less then 1% today. It is no surprise to me that people don’t save because it’s a suckers bet today. You don’t get paid any thing if you do it. You are probably better off just sticking it in a safe somewhere then putting it in a savings instrument; at least you will get your money back. The inflation figures reported by the government don’t even pass the laugh test. They only apply to you if you live in an abandoned auto in a Kmart parking lot and you are on food stamps.

So if you save it and can manage to make say 3% real inflation will eat more then that and to add insult to injury the IRS will tax you on it.

Is it really any surprise that we don’t save when the entire system is geared to push people to burrow? The purchasing power of the currency is always going down. The rates paid to savers have all but vanished. I have savings but I view any dollars I have as a wasting asset and I am always on the lookout for hard assets to convert my savings out of the little green coupons.

Posted by Tracy McGreedy on 12-29-08 12:59 AM:

Re: Why don't Americans save?

It is because America and many of it's corporation care about the bottom line and to induce growth, they encourage their penniless populace to go further into debt. "They" have created temptation and greed via credit and interest. "They" suggest consumption thru invisible indebted servitude. This country grows on consumption. The pendulum swings until it cannot and has swung this way for some time now with slave wage in 3rd world countries to produce our goods. At some point, these 3rd worlds figure out if we kick out the debt ridden Americans off our islands and eat all the fish ourselves, we'd be happier. Which is what happens Now. Ultimate destination is socialism.. as is any society that finally peaks and "matures".

Quote from Debaser82:

I live in that pighole of a socialist europe where the government takes 50% of your salary, you don't get to work for your own pockets untill after the summer, and still people over here save more then 10% of their income.

What gives?

Is it because the FED has run a more inflationary course then the ECB eroding the purchasing power of the dollar causing people to search for alternatives?

Or is it the US spirit where people are always on the outlook for the next bubble to grow so they can hop on and become rich overnight?

Or is this how capitalism is supposed to work? If you can't cut it bad luck and good night see you in the souplines?

Posted by seauouch on 12-29-08 01:03 AM:

Re: Why so surprised?

Quote from mogar:

When I was a teenager back in the late 60 early 70’s a welder at any old shop could own and pay for a house, have a wife and kids and he could make it. Also I was earning about 6 to 7% on a savings account.

Today you need two good paychecks to make it. Savings accounts pay less then 1% today. It is no surprise to me that people don’t save because it’s a suckers bet today. You don’t get paid any thing if you do it. You are probably better off just sticking it in a safe somewhere then putting it in a savings instrument; at least you will get your money back. The inflation figures reported by the government don’t even pass the laugh test. They only apply to you if you live in an abandoned auto in a Kmart parking lot and you are on food stamps.

So if you save it and can manage to make say 3% real inflation will eat more then that and to add insult to injury the IRS will tax you on it.

Is it really any surprise that we don’t save when the entire system is geared to push people to burrow? The purchasing power of the currency is always going down. The rates paid to savers have all but vanished. I have savings but I view any dollars I have as a wasting asset and I am always on the lookout for hard assets to convert my savings out of the little green coupons.

100% right, I love how its in vogue now to chastise American taxpayers for not saving. Why the hell would anyone save when interest rates on savings minus inflation is negative??? The government inflation rates are a joke, sure computers & TV's are cheaper now than 10-20 years ago but important stuff, housing, education, health care. food & energy have gone up 500% since the 80's. My grandparents bought their house in the 60's for 9k the same house is worth 800k today. The average house in my town in 500k ( even after the RE bubble burst ) How is the average person supposed to buy a house & start a family without going into massive debt ?

Posted by marketsurfer on 12-29-08 01:46 AM:

Saving indicates a profound lack of confidence in the future.

worst yet, it is reflective of a severe lack of confidence in YOUR future earning potential.

Invest aggresively, take risks, be flexible, spend and enjoy--its best for everyone...

surf

Posted by RiceRocket on 12-29-08 01:49 AM:

Americans have a strong belief that you are what you think. Therefore, they believe that if you spend your money, and expect more to come in the future, you will always have more money.

Posted by hoodooman on 12-29-08 01:50 AM:

CNN had a show on this week were they maintained that the average american family had 11 credit cards and was carrying about 11k in debt on these alone.

Posted by tommymoose on 12-29-08 02:47 AM:

Quote from gnome:

I made spending money by washing neighbors cars, mowing lawns, shoveling snow, babysitting... do kids do these things today?

FWIW I'm 21 and did all of the above (minus washing cars) to earn money from the age of ~12 to ~17. I think these teen years are pretty critical for forming your attitudes about money.

Shoveling snow for hours in order to save for something, then getting a $200 speeding ticket, getting stressed out, etc. has a way of teaching you certain values about spending and saving for a rainy day.

However, I would say 75%+ of my generation was not the same way.

Posted by gnome on 12-29-08 03:04 AM:

Quote from RiceRocket:

Americans have a strong belief that you are what you think. Therefore, they believe that if you spend your money, and expect more to come in the future, you will always have more money.

That's convoluted!

How about save your money, build up some capital and learn to invest.

Then you can spend the earnings on your capital over and over again... not to mention the capital necessary to sustain your life when you no longer have an income from employment.

__________________
Men are like wine. They start out as grapes, but then it takes a woman to stomp the crap out of them until they're decent enough to have dinner with.

Posted by nutmeg on 12-29-08 03:06 AM:

then getting a $200 speeding ticket,
------------------------------

I hope you had a lawyer, this won't save you any money but a lawyer will get that ticket off your licsense.

Fwiw, I think the fines are a rip off.

Posted by nutmeg on 12-29-08 03:08 AM:

I have savings but I view any dollars I have as a wasting asset and I am always on the lookout for hard assets to convert my savings
-----------------------

The hard asset is yourself. Invest in yourself. Engage in a hobby that can earn some extra income or add to your education. Income trumps inflation.

Posted by RiceRocket on 12-29-08 03:20 AM:

Another issue with the data is that Americans save differently than Asians. Asians put their cash in the bank which is debased by deflation. Americans put their money in real estate which historically keeps pace with inflation. The current real estate bust is merely an anomaly in the overall scheme of things.

Posted by gnome on 12-29-08 03:31 AM:

Quote from RiceRocket:

. Americans put their money in real estate which historically keeps pace with inflation.

That's what "they" tell us. We don't need savings because we have RE and stocks...

How's that working out for everybody?

Problem on the RE end.... too many paid too much and leveraged to high without proper assets to support their risk exposure.

On the stocks end, they told us "buy and hold"... with no concept of basic timing.

By the time this mess is cleaned up, likely 2 or 3 generations of Americans will never invest in RE or stocks again...

__________________
Men are like wine. They start out as grapes, but then it takes a woman to stomp the crap out of them until they're decent enough to have dinner with.

Posted by KeithOmalley on 12-29-08 03:51 AM:

Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from Debaser82:

I live in that pighole of a socialist europe where the government takes 50% of your salary, you don't get to work for your own pockets untill after the summer, and still people over here save more then 10% of their income.

What gives?

Is it because the FED has run a more inflationary course then the ECB eroding the purchasing power of the dollar causing people to search for alternatives?

Or is it the US spirit where people are always on the outlook for the next bubble to grow so they can hop on and become rich overnight?

Or is this how capitalism is supposed to work? If you can't cut it bad luck and good night see you in the souplines?

many people in america are taxed at over 50% . get into a high tax bracket and live in a high tax state and don't forget SS and Medicare for your first 105k of earings, there you go 50%

You cant take every stat at take it literal. for example i remember hearing that personal debt went down for the first time this quarter for the first time ever. sounds good on paper until you realise that it was because peoples houses where forclosed on and others had there credit limit lowered or went bankrupt.

Americans do save, not as much as europe. when people take into consideration 401ks which is not included in the personal savings rate.

Posted by Stosh on 12-29-08 03:57 AM:

Quote from gnome:

I believe much of it stems from the US Gummint... they encourage profligate spending and punish saving. The REAL reason the Gummint does that is so it all masks the effects of deficit spending.

When I was a kid, my "things" were a bicycle, basketball, ball glove, chess set, fishing pole... (none of which were bought on credit)

I made spending money by washing neighbors cars, mowing lawns, shoveling snow, babysitting... do kids do these things today?

Let's say the neighbor's kid wanted to do some work for me around my house:
1. Don't I need to make sure I will be in compliance with child labor laws and minimum wage laws?
2. Don't I need to execute the proper forms for withholding of income tax, social security, worker's compensation insurance and also pay my portion of such?
3. Don't I need to make sure I provide all eye protection, hearing protection, inhalation protection, proper protective footwear, etc. for the job at hand? and that all tools and equipment that he might use be in excellent working order?
4. Don't I need to make sure that the kid has had the proper training in safety for the job at hand?
5. Don't I need to have the proper drinking water, salt tablets, first aid equipment, and rest room provisions?
6. Isn't there a good chance I will be sued if the kid is seriously hurt no matter what the reason?

Posted by gnome on 12-29-08 04:10 AM:

Quote from Stosh:

Let's say the neighbor's kid wanted to do some work for me around my house:
1. Don't I need to make sure I will be in compliance with child labor laws and minimum wage laws?
2. Don't I need to execute the proper forms for withholding of income tax, social security, worker's compensation insurance and also pay my portion of such?
3. Don't I need to make sure I provide all eye protection, hearing protection, inhalation protection, proper protective footwear, etc. for the job at hand? and that all tools and equipment that he might use be in excellent working order?
4. Don't I need to make sure that the kid has had the proper training in safety for the job at hand?
5. Don't I need to have the proper drinking water, salt tablets, first aid equipment, and rest room provisions?
6. Isn't there a good chance I will be sued if the kid is seriously hurt no matter what the reason?

Do you do all of those things to have a service mow your lawn or pick up your dog's poop?

__________________
Men are like wine. They start out as grapes, but then it takes a woman to stomp the crap out of them until they're decent enough to have dinner with.

Posted by scriabinop23 on 12-29-08 04:41 AM:

Here is the real data to read in between the lines.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/relea.../current/z1.pdf

Notice the mortgage debt blowup starting 1998 running all through this decade. About 4.6T above mean (of 200B/yr increase in personal mortgage debt)... That means this bailout and all total money lent, once circulating should be pretty effective at plugging the hole.

__________________
http://scriabinop23.blogspot.com

Posted by nutmeg on 12-29-08 05:01 AM:

Quote from Stosh:

Let's say the neighbor's kid wanted to do some work for me around my house:
1. Don't I need to make sure I will be in compliance with child labor laws and minimum wage laws?
2. Don't I need to execute the proper forms for withholding of income tax, social security, worker's compensation insurance and also pay my portion of such?
3. Don't I need to make sure I provide all eye protection, hearing protection, inhalation protection, proper protective footwear, etc. for the job at hand? and that all tools and equipment that he might use be in excellent working order?
4. Don't I need to make sure that the kid has had the proper training in safety for the job at hand?
5. Don't I need to have the proper drinking water, salt tablets, first aid equipment, and rest room provisions?
6. Isn't there a good chance I will be sued if the kid is seriously hurt no matter what the reason?

lol and right on.

In addition you should have the kid take a drug test.

Is he/she an american citizen.

If he/she person who "english is a second language" (ESL) then you should provide instruction thru an interpreter.

Posted by Stosh on 12-29-08 05:03 AM:

Quote from gnome:

Do you do all of those things to have a service mow your lawn or pick up your dog's poop?

You answered my questions about the neighbor's kid with a question about lawn and poop service companies (which hopefully puts them between you and the problem, but only if they are solvent and responsible). My questions were trying to illustrate the absurdity of our laws and regulations, but individually the questions are not really absurd. It seems that the word "hire" has almost come to mean "adopt". Stosh

Posted by thriftybob on 12-29-08 12:58 PM:

Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from Debaser82:

I live in that pighole of a socialist europe where the government takes 50% of your salary, you don't get to work for your own pockets untill after the summer, and still people over here save more then 10% of their income.

What gives?

Is it because the FED has run a more inflationary course then the ECB eroding the purchasing power of the dollar causing people to search for alternatives?

Or is it the US spirit where people are always on the outlook for the next bubble to grow so they can hop on and become rich overnight?

Or is this how capitalism is supposed to work? If you can't cut it bad luck and good night see you in the souplines?

Is your 50% including VAT taxes and sales taxes or just income tax? Many of us here pay 40% income tax, plus 15% social security and medicare tax, plus 10% sales tax, plus real estate taxes, etc.

Beyond that Americans have been and are living beyond their means, we have government that encourages DEBT and sets a great example of how to borrow and waste the most possible, without ever repaying any of it. What Americans DON'T need is credit, and more debt. What they need is to produce and sell at least as much as they consume. Funny how so few economists or government folk say anything like that. Maybe I'm just wrong, huh?

Posted by gnome on 12-29-08 01:01 PM:

Quote from Stosh:

You answered my questions about the neighbor's kid with a question about lawn and poop service companies (which hopefully puts them between you and the problem, but only if they are solvent and responsible). My questions were trying to illustrate the absurdity of our laws and regulations, but individually the questions are not really absurd. It seems that the word "hire" has almost come to mean "adopt". Stosh

Of course the laws can seem to be absurd... but those are for "employees"... not the same as having someone do an "odd job" for you.

__________________
Men are like wine. They start out as grapes, but then it takes a woman to stomp the crap out of them until they're decent enough to have dinner with.

Posted by gnome on 12-29-08 01:04 PM:

Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from thriftybob:

Is your 50% including VAT taxes and sales taxes or just income tax? Many of us here pay 40% income tax, plus 15% social security and medicare tax, plus 10% sales tax, plus real estate taxes, etc.

Beyond that Americans have been and are living beyond their means, we have government that encourages DEBT and sets a great example of how to borrow and waste the most possible, without ever repaying any of it. What Americans DON'T need is credit, and more debt. What they need is to produce and sell at least as much as they consume. Funny how so few economists or government folk say anything like that. Maybe I'm just wrong, huh?

No, I think you are correct.

One of the major platforms/promises of politicians is that "you will be better off financially if you elect me"...

Overborrowing, overspending, onverconsuming all give the appearance of "doing better" because you have more stuff and services, vacations, etc, so Gummint encourages excess... not the same as having more wealth.

__________________
Men are like wine. They start out as grapes, but then it takes a woman to stomp the crap out of them until they're decent enough to have dinner with.

Posted by Angrycat on 12-29-08 01:47 PM:

Americans are far more optimistic about their ability to earn in the future. Europeans lack that optimism.

Beyond that, the government has been making it pretty clear over the past year that if you save you will be punished. Worse, when all this "stimulus" finally leads to a currency crisis, the wealth of the savers will be confiscated outright to pay off government creditors and/or will be taxed away via the hyperinflation that will accompany the crisis. So, either you spend your money and default on your debt when things get rough or you scrimp and save and the government will either take it from you indirectly via inflation or directly through taxation (a deficit is a tax too). As you can see, the government rewards default and punishes prudence and saving.

I learned the hard way. I was a save my whole life and sacrificed instant gratification to live well within my means. It's futile.

Our taxes are ridiculously high. The corporate tax rate is much higher than Europe's. Also, 25% of the GDP is produced in the Los Angeles and NYC area and those are two of the highest tax areas in the country. Between State, City and Federal, NYC taxes are around 50% - and that's before you add in the 9% sales tax, the 19% property tax, excise taxes and social security taxes.

Posted by gnome on 12-29-08 02:05 PM:

Quote from Angrycat:

"... the government has been making it pretty clear... that if you save you will be punished. Worse, when all this "stimulus" finally leads to a currency crisis, the wealth of the savers will be confiscated outright to pay off government creditors and/or will be taxed away via the hyperinflation that will accompany the crisis. So, either you spend your money and default on your debt when things get rough or you scrimp and save and the government will either take it from you indirectly via inflation or directly through taxation (a deficit is a tax too). As you can see, the government rewards default and punishes prudence and saving.

Spot on!

Just as the vet says of my Husky, "it's all about HIM, isn't it"? ... In America it's "all about the Gummint"...

As we pursue the policies of ever bigger Gummint and ever greater Gummint spending, the future of America looks ever more grim.

NObama wants to increase Gummint's take, increase Gummint's spending, and to "redistribute the pie"... that will exacerbate America's demise.

America doesn't need more Socialism, nor more Gummint. America needs SMALLER, different government to reduce its burden on society.

But Gummint makes the rules and likes things as they are. And when Gummint gets TOO big and TOO powerful, it dominates everyone's life... Our future looks darker by the moment...

__________________
Men are like wine. They start out as grapes, but then it takes a woman to stomp the crap out of them until they're decent enough to have dinner with.

Posted by AK100 on 12-29-08 02:10 PM:

Because many of them have been perfectly seduced by lifestyle marketing.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-30-08 07:33 AM:

Quote from Sam Mcgee:
I've written it here before, the reason that Americans spend too much is because of the amount of television that they watch. Look up any statistics for the hours of television and you'll see that Americans watch almost double the amount compared to any other county. Why do Americans watch so much TV? It's because most of the best programs are made for the largest market place, the United States. Other countries are not as interested in American TV because it isn't made for them.

I lived in the United States for a while about 20 years ago and that was the biggest difference I noticed, after dinner just about everyone was planted in front of the TV there.

The other thing that leads to excess consumption in the United States is that their mortgages are tax deductible. What happens is that as soon as some equity is built up in a home, people use that as a source of extra money to spend. In a round about way, the American government is subsidizing excess consumption with these tax deductions. The amount of money that the United States government has given up for these tax deductions is roughly the same amount that the government is in debt.

Consumption is good to build up an economy but when it gets excessive you end up with a trade imbalance. The money sent out of the country eventually has to come back to purchase something from the United States. What's left to purchase? The United States doesn't manufacture much anymore. The only thing of value left in the United States are shares of stock owned by it's citizens.

In a round about way, the United States is being defeated in an economic war. Asia has no need to engage in a physical war with the US to take them over, they'll just buy them. I don't think that Asia planned it that way but they will certainly benefit from the situation. They would be wise to keep the price low for all televisions they send over.

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fi...orking_time.jpg
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the facts don’t support your argument. Fact is that even though Americans watch so much t.v. they work some of the longest hours out of any country.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-30-08 07:38 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from harkm:
Where did you live in the US? In Texas everybody is outside walking and running. Also, the gyms are packed. The problem is that nothing bad has happened here in so long that most are complacent. People are saving like crazy right now though.

I live in Maryland outside DC in the supposedly the 12th richest county in the country. Nobody I know seems to be doing all that well right now.

That’s great if you guys are saving righ now. Now is the time to do that. I wish I had $10 million right now. I’d be buying everything in sight. Think about it, real estate is probably on sale for 30-50% off right now, or more. Stocks are 50% off right now. You could probably buy a lot of bad debt out there for penny’s on the dollar. You could open a store somewhere and probably negotiate a very good long term lease. A lot of opportunities right now. I just have almost no money right now. When you have the money, the opportunity isn’t there, when the opportunity is there, you never seem to have the money.

I have actually heard that the non metropolitan areas offer a lot of opportunities. Where I live pretty much most of the higher income jobs are either in the government, or tech/science areas. So if you aren’t in these fields, chances are you’re not doing very well and hit doubly by the higher cost of living in this area. I guess other area’s just act like normal economies where there’s a little something for everybody.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-30-08 07:41 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from drcha:

Well here goes.. you may go ahead and shoot me if you like.....I might sound like some kook living in a hut in Montana.

There is a pervasive sense of entitlement in this country. Yes, there are a few savers here and there, but the more prevalent attitute is: I'm entitled to my job, entitled to own a fancy car, entitled to all the stuff I see on TV, entitled to own a 5000-sf house, etc.... and now I guess we are all entitled to get bailed out of whatever. So those who chose to buy only what they can clearly see the way to pay for, will pay for those who were profligate.

Where does it stem from? One poster commented on our status as a nation of migrants, thus risk-takers. There may be some truth to this.

Mostly, though, I think we believe that we are entitled to everything because we are taught that pattern of thinking from an early age. Childrearing has been child-indulging for the last fifty years or so. People are no longer taught to work hard, save, or any of that stuff, which is now considered very old-fashioned and foolish.

People I know tell me that they have to buy their kids everything because the kid's friends all have these things. What they are teaching their kids, subtly, is that it's important to keep up with the Jones, and that what other people think about your economic status is important. Do we really want to teach them that?

Furthermore, childrearing is done in a vacuum. Unlike Europe, we live hundreds or thousand of miles from our relatives, so there is no extended family to influence the raising of children or to shape their attitudes. The children are all so busy playing with their expensive computer toy-thing-ies in their 5000 sf homes that they don't interact with the world enough to get a view of how others live differently. The only adult models that kids have are their parents and possibly a teacher or coach; there are no mitigating opinions or influences from other relatives or the rest of society. Of course, there are plenty of criminals and narcissists on TV for them to watch.

My guess is that this indulgence stems from both parents working. I don't suggest we go back to the 50's, but maybe there is some way for people to at least stop throwing things at their kids in lieu of spending time with them. My observation has been that I see a profound difference in these attitudes between people who are my age (52) and younger, as opposed to the generation before me. My older friends just don't seem to believe that the world owes them anything.

I think my parents, who made their share of mistakes, got this absolutely right. When I was young I used to wish I had a dollar for every damn time they said to me, "We're not going to buy that. If you want it you will have to save your allowance, get a job, etc..." So now, I DO have a dollar for every time they said that to me. Strangely, it turns out that, while I could buy a hot car and all the crap I see on TV, most of it's just not that interesting to me. Go figure.

Your attitude is very typical of a baby boomer. While some in my generation may have an entitlement mentality, I contend that your generation didn’t need one because you were already given the things that we (not me necessarily) think we’re owed.

NEWS FLASH!! All of you baby boomers, buying a home 30 years ago for 25k and then selling it a few years later for 100k and rolling that into a new 200k home that is now worth 800k doesn’t make you any more hard working than anybody else. You got lucky and benefited greatly from the massive inflation boom of the past 30 years that my generation is now paying for. This goes for the stock market too. Just because you bought the Dow at 500, 30 years ago, doesn’t make you an investing genius. Again you got lucky and benefited from what other people are paying for. If I told you the Dow would be at 200,000 in 30 years, you would think I’m crazy, but that’s exactly what it’s done.

In your generation a father could work at the local factory and support his whole family. Now, mom and dad both have to work and still can’t seem to pay the bills. When my parents went to college, they worked part time jobs and graduated with no debt. Now, not only do people have to take out student loans to pay for all of their tuition, but they have to use the credit cards to supplement their living expenses because their part time job doesn’t even cover that. My mom worked at a grocery store 30 years ago and after a few years made $12 an hour. I worked at that same store a few years ago in high school and very luckily ended up making $9.50. Even if I stayed there for several years, the most I could have ever made was probably $12. In 30 years the pay stayed exactly the same. Except $12 back then is probably about $50 now. So you see how this could lead to an entitlement attitude. People are working so hard and yet can’t get ahead. Meanwhile everybody else seems to be getting a bailout.

As far as me. My parents couldn’t afford to give me much because my mom stayed home with us. I think I was naturally born with a work ethic, but I’m sure they would have instilled it into me anyways. I started deliverying newspapers when I was 11. But now I’m broke and don’t have much hope. I have worked many 60-80 hour weeks over the past 6 years and have not been able to have anything succeed. It’s ok that I haven’t made it in the business world, I’ll try again. But in the meantime, I have seen the cost of living go higher and higher, meanwhile the job market is almost non existent. The Washington Post job section used to be 10-15 pages, this week, 2. If I can’t get a decent job, I can’t save money to invest and start a business.

I don’t want a handout, just equal opportunity. Bring back good jobs and stop inflating the money so that prices remain steady, and I bet you’ll see the savings rate increase.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-30-08 07:43 AM:

Quote from operator:
people are always trying to keep up with the jones...instead of living within their means....

You want to know why you probably don’t have to keep up with the Jones’? Because you are the Jones’.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-30-08 07:44 AM:

Re: Why so surprised?

Quote from mogar:

When I was a teenager back in the late 60 early 70’s a welder at any old shop could own and pay for a house, have a wife and kids and he could make it. Also I was earning about 6 to 7% on a savings account.

Today you need two good paychecks to make it. Savings accounts pay less then 1% today. It is no surprise to me that people don’t save because it’s a suckers bet today. You don’t get paid any thing if you do it. You are probably better off just sticking it in a safe somewhere then putting it in a savings instrument; at least you will get your money back. The inflation figures reported by the government don’t even pass the laugh test. They only apply to you if you live in an abandoned auto in a Kmart parking lot and you are on food stamps.

So if you save it and can manage to make say 3% real inflation will eat more then that and to add insult to injury the IRS will tax you on it.

Is it really any surprise that we don’t save when the entire system is geared to push people to burrow? The purchasing power of the currency is always going down. The rates paid to savers have all but vanished. I have savings but I view any dollars I have as a wasting asset and I am always on the lookout for hard assets to convert my savings out of the little green coupons.

Exactly!

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-30-08 07:46 AM:

Re: Re: Why so surprised?

Quote from seauouch:

100% right, I love how its in vogue now to chastise American taxpayers for not saving. Why the hell would anyone save when interest rates on savings minus inflation is negative??? The government inflation rates are a joke, sure computers & TV's are cheaper now than 10-20 years ago but important stuff, housing, education, health care. food & energy have gone up 500% since the 80's. My grandparents bought their house in the 60's for 9k the same house is worth 800k today. The average house in my town in 500k ( even after the RE bubble burst ) How is the average person supposed to buy a house & start a family without going into massive debt ?

I have mentioned this and other things like this on ET a little. When I suggested that somebody who works 40+ hours a week should be able to afford a decent standard of living, I was called a Socialist. When I mention how the cost of living keeps going up, and wages are continually stagnant I am usually called a lazy complainer who thinks they’re entitled to a middle class lifestyle. When I mention that perhaps the baby boomers had it much easier than my generation, I’m usually told that I have a victim mentality and to just go work harder. Let’s just say all of the name’s were true? Does that make what I say any less true?

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-30-08 07:48 AM:

Quote from hoodooman:
CNN had a show on this week were they maintained that the average american family had 11 credit cards and was carrying about 11k in debt on these alone.

On another ET thread, I offered the idea that perhaps people keep going into debt because the cost of living keeps going up and up and wages keep staying flat or dopping. I was heavily critisized and told to work harder and get a better job. Presumably I and others are supposed to get better jobs by spending thousands on college which inevitably means taking out more loans since it’s so expensive. So the solution to paying off your debt, is to take on more of it?

Posted by Mav88 on 12-30-08 12:22 PM:

But what is the cost of living and what is a decent lving? I know some people working those crappy jobs but living just fine becuase their expectations are aligned.The american left seems to want to say it means a middle class existence for everyone. That was never possible, and it should not have been promoted in the first place. This is the fault of the political left for convincing a segment of our population that they are entitled to material items.

Poor people in the US have cell phones, cars, cable TVs, and pump out kids as if the kid fairy will take care of them. As soon as you make material items like health care and a standard of living a right, then starts the path downward.

-"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic. "
Benjamin Franklin

Posted by Handle123 on 12-30-08 02:08 PM:

I think saving, at least in my case, was taught by my family that it was just something that was done first, first 10% went into bank, whether it was paper route money when I was 11 to whatever job I had as I aged.

How many parents these days teach their kids to save?

Posted by Aaron Copland on 12-30-08 02:52 PM:

How would you feel if you worked all your life lived within your means? Saved a lot of money then lost it all in a failed bank, a bad fund manager.

Yes you are insured for 250k but what if you had 2 million in savings.

WELL WAKE UP! THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENING.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-30-08 02:56 PM:

Quote from Mav88:
But what is the cost of living and what is a decent lving? I know some people working those crappy jobs but living just fine becuase their expectations are aligned.The american left seems to want to say it means a middle class existence for everyone. That was never possible, and it should not have been promoted in the first place. This is the fault of the political left for convincing a segment of our population that they are entitled to material items.

Poor people in the US have cell phones, cars, cable TVs, and pump out kids as if the kid fairy will take care of them. As soon as you make material items like health care and a standard of living a right, then starts the path downward.

-"When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic. "
Benjamin Franklin

Well I definitely think that you raise some very good points. Thank you for pointing out specific topics rather than the typical barage of useless comments I seem to get around here. I think you have some valid points. I don’t think that we really need to focus on politics here. The left may have instilled somewhat of an entitlement philosophy, but the right has done absolutely nothing to help out the little guy. What’s their solution to everything, more tax cuts and bomb more countries. I believe the bottom 50% only pay 5% of the income taxes. So how would lower taxes help them? Anybody who thinks cutting capital gains or corporate taxes will encourage businesses to create more jobs, is seriously mistaken. I do think unions and the left perhaps have kept the rich and corporations in check by this mentality. Otherwise the free market that the right seems to love so much, would simply turn into survival of the fittest and well connected.

All I can say to answer most of what you said is to point out some of my situations. No company I’ve worked for offered health insurance, so my personal policy has gone up 50% in 5 years. My credit card that I used to start a business went from 8-24% even though I have perfect credit history. I deliver pizza and don’t really need to say much about what gas prices have done. Anytime I go to the mechanic I have to shell out at least $500. A one bedroom apartment where I live is still over $1000 a month. Sure maybe I could get a roomate, but we all know how unreliable people are nowadays, I’ll end up stuck with the whole bill. Everything else except my car insurance costs more than 5 years ago, yet the job prospects have all gotten significantly worse. Right now, I make less than I did back then.

My sister, brother, me, and pretty much every other young person I know all work at restaurants. Why? Because there is literally no other decent paying jobs out there. Nobody is going to give us decent pay, so we have to find jobs where we get a little bit from 10-20 people a day. Most of us still live with our parents. I work so hard but just can’t seem to get ahead. In the meantime everything keeps going up and up and I just can’t seem to even maintain my current level of income. So you wonder why people can’t save.

I think you may be confusing the irresponsible poor with those that really just can’t get ahead. I certainly agree that they have too many kids. Nobody I know has ever bought a new car, mine is a 1992 Camry. We have lived in a small townhouse my whole life. I indulge once every 2 years and get a decent cell phone, which I need for my job anyways.

Ben Franklin is right. But if people made more money and saw more opportunity, they wouldn’t vote for more entitlements because they know they would be paying for. People who are working so hard, but can’t get ahead, don’t seem to know why. So I contend the rich will bring about socialism, not the poor. Yes the poor voted for them, but rich people’s greed caused a lot of the sentiment. I voted for Bush. I was so discusted with the Republicans that I went third party this time. If I don’t see some serious changes in the party, I’ll just vote Obama in 4 years.

Posted by Hombre on 12-30-08 02:58 PM:

Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from Debaser82:

I live in that pighole of a socialist europe where the government takes 50% of your salary, you don't get to work for your own pockets untill after the summer, and still people over here save more then 10% of their income.

What gives?

Is it because the FED has run a more inflationary course then the ECB eroding the purchasing power of the dollar causing people to search for alternatives?

Or is it the US spirit where people are always on the outlook for the next bubble to grow so they can hop on and become rich overnight?

Or is this how capitalism is supposed to work? If you can't cut it bad luck and good night see you in the souplines?

Little bit of all above.
One dominant trait in US is the instant gratification.
Whole generations were molded and programmed by marketing machine to forget about tomorrow and buy it now. Everything was available on credit.
Another trait is the selfimportance and sense of entitlement like
" I deserve this " so let's go shopping.
It will be very hard to teach kids about importance of saving when they see their parents and grandparents savings wiped out by recent market crash.
I hope that things will get better for you in Romania.
A

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-30-08 03:07 PM:

Quote from Aaron Copland:

How would you feel if you worked all your life lived within your means? Saved a lot of money then lost it all in a failed bank, a bad fund manager.

Yes you are insured for 250k but what if you had 2 million in savings.

WELL WAKE UP! THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENING.

I guess you’re getting at a bigger point, but everybody knows accounts are only insured up to 100k and now I guess it’s 250. You should divide all the money between several banks. I think the odds are much greater that your savings is eroded through inflation, rather than a bank failure. That is the true crime today.

Posted by Sam Mcgee on 12-30-08 03:32 PM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fi...orking_time.jpg
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the facts don’t support your argument. Fact is that even though Americans watch so much t.v. they work some of the longest hours out of any country.

Yes, Americans work a lot, I've seen those statistics as well. What does that have to do with my argument that too much television has caused too much consumption in the US?:

http://www.economist.com/research/a...tory_id=9527126

http://dilsenomad.wordpress.com/200...nd-consumption/

Or maybe this is easier for those that aren't used to reading:

http://news.zdnet.com/2422-13568_22-155512.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfvyrhKpDnY

__________________
There are strange things done 'neath the midnight sun
By the men who moil for gold

Posted by marketsurfer on 12-30-08 03:39 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Your attitude is very typical of a baby boomer. While some in my generation may have an entitlement mentality, I contend that your

I don’t want a handout, just equal opportunity. Bring back good jobs and stop inflating the money so that prices remain steady, and I bet you’ll see the savings rate increase.

Sorry to hear about your struggles. however, you can start a business with little or no money. I started my tiny publishing company back in 1990 with $30.00--just enough to print up 1000 flyers advertising my marketing. Now, its so much easier to start out-- with the internet, etc. . This business would never make me wealthy, but it bought me a nice lifestyle and almost absolute freedom to do what i want when i want--so that i could work on the things that had great potential for wealth.

You need to remember that LUCK has a tremendous amount to do with success. Therefore, I wish you luck in 2009.

surf

Posted by gnome on 12-30-08 03:43 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from marketsurfer:

You need to remember that LUCK has a tremendous amount to do with success. Therefore, I wish you luck in 2009.

surf

That is ESPECIALLY true of career traders. For the most part, (1) few survive "many years", and (2) those who have "survived many years" have done so because the conditions which could hurt them have not come around... YET. Unfortunately it takes only 1 or 2 significantly bad decisions to wipe out 20 years of gains...

__________________
Men are like wine. They start out as grapes, but then it takes a woman to stomp the crap out of them until they're decent enough to have dinner with.

Posted by marketsurfer on 12-30-08 03:46 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from gnome:

That is ESPECIALLY true of career traders. For the most part, (1) few survive "many years", and (2) those who have "survived many years" have done so because the conditions which could hurt them have not come around... YET. Unfortunately it takes only 1 or 2 significantly bad decisions to wipe out 20 years of gains...

very true. Luck is the absolute most important factor. markets change all the time, if you're a one trick pony and not flexible, as most are, you're simply not going to last...

happy new year gnome!

surf

Posted by gnome on 12-30-08 03:50 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from marketsurfer:

very true. Luck is the absolute most important factor. markets change all the time, if you're a one trick pony and not flexible, as most are, you're simply not going to last...

happy new year gnome!

surf

Thanks. You too.

Too bad most ET'ers don't recognize when a little wisdom is dispensed here...

"A smart man learns from his mistakes... a wise man learns from the mistakes of others"

__________________
Men are like wine. They start out as grapes, but then it takes a woman to stomp the crap out of them until they're decent enough to have dinner with.

Posted by Mav88 on 12-30-08 04:16 PM:

Sandybestdog,

The very idea that everyone should 'get ahead' is way oversold. This was the american dream that somehow went from dream to entitlement. You have to ask yourself exactly what you think everyone should have, then ask whether or not people really produce to that level. Liberty is what this nation is founded on, not material well being and entitlement.

Initially I took the safest rout- went to school for a long time. For many of those years I didn't own a car and health insurance was a vitamin. Never in my life have I thought that my living was guaranteed or a right, and I live small. Either accept freedom and the uncertainty of it all, or move to a communist nation where you can live at exactly the same level (poverty) as everyone else.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-30-08 05:14 PM:

Quote from Sam Mcgee:

Yes, Americans work a lot, I've seen those statistics as well. What does that have to do with my argument that too much television has caused too much consumption in the US?:

http://www.economist.com/research/a...tory_id=9527126

http://dilsenomad.wordpress.com/200...nd-consumption/

Or maybe this is easier for those that aren't used to reading:

http://news.zdnet.com/2422-13568_22-155512.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfvyrhKpDnY

I still don’t see your point. This thread is about people not saving. I thought one of the ways to save is to work a lot. So what if people watch a lot of tv if they’re working a lot. I can’t wait to see how Jack Bauer saves the world next.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-30-08 05:30 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from marketsurfer:
Sorry to hear about your struggles. however, you can start a business with little or no money. I started my tiny publishing company back in 1990 with $30.00--just enough to print up 1000 flyers advertising my marketing. Now, its so much easier to start out-- with the internet, etc. . This business would never make me wealthy, but it bought me a nice lifestyle and almost absolute freedom to do what i want when i want--so that i could work on the things that had great potential for wealth.

You need to remember that LUCK has a tremendous amount to do with success. Therefore, I wish you luck in 2009.

surf

Thank you. I sold a lot on eBay and enjoyed that very much. I don’t have anything to sell right now. It’s very difficult to find good stuff. Eventually something will work out, but in the meantime it just keeps getting harder and harder to stay afloat.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-30-08 05:46 PM:

Quote from Mav88:

Sandybestdog,

The very idea that everyone should 'get ahead' is way oversold. This was the american dream that somehow went from dream to entitlement. You have to ask yourself exactly what you think everyone should have, then ask whether or not people really produce to that level. Liberty is what this nation is founded on, not material well being and entitlement.

Initially I took the safest rout- went to school for a long time. For many of those years I didn't own a car and health insurance was a vitamin. Never in my life have I thought that my living was guaranteed or a right, and I live small. Either accept freedom and the uncertainty of it all, or move to a communist nation where you can live at exactly the same level (poverty) as everyone else.

I never said people should have a free ride to“get ahead” I am saying for my generation it is much more difficult to get ahead than the last. Why do we play the blame game so much instead of coming up with solutions to fix the problem? Our job markets are eroding. How can we bring back good jobs? Up until recently housing prices were out of control. Let’s have them keep falling so my generation might one day be able to afford it. Why are bankers allowed to print money out of thin air and the consumer has to pay for it through inflation? Why has health insurance gone up 50% in 5 years? How do we bring down the cost of medical care?

Not to mention the baby boomers are going to make out nicely with Social inSecurity while my generation will pay for it. Or we’ll just borrow more from China. If I’m ever able to retire, there will either be nothing left, or the dollar will be so inflated that it won’t buy anything.

Posted by trendlover on 12-30-08 05:46 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Thank you. I sold a lot on eBay and enjoyed that very much. I don’t have anything to sell right now. It’s very difficult to find good stuff. Eventually something will work out, but in the meantime it just keeps getting harder and harder to stay afloat.

Sandy, go look on chit chat and Brandon is trying to start a thread for learning how to create a business on the internet.

__________________
trendlover

Posted by marketsurfer on 12-30-08 05:59 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Thank you. I sold a lot on eBay and enjoyed that very much. I don’t have anything to sell right now. It’s very difficult to find good stuff. Eventually something will work out, but in the meantime it just keeps getting harder and harder to stay afloat.

You are thinking the wrong way. Selling stuff on ebay will normally get you nowhere fast. you need to think in terms of systems not selling stuff piece by piece. Business to me is one that runs by itself, a systematic money machine that has nothing to do with you "selling" directly. Setting up a recuring income stream is easier than you think-- start thinking in these terms and you should be able to start something that willl last.

surf

Posted by Landis82 on 12-30-08 06:07 PM:

Quote from sc85:

Because Americans are more confident about their future than any other groups.

True.

Posted by gnome on 12-30-08 06:09 PM:

The realities of this time should smarten-up a few of us...

__________________
Men are like wine. They start out as grapes, but then it takes a woman to stomp the crap out of them until they're decent enough to have dinner with.

Posted by Mav88 on 12-30-08 06:36 PM:

I never said people should have a free ride to“get ahead” I am saying for my generation it is much more difficult to get ahead than the last. Why do we play the blame game so much instead of coming up with solutions to fix the problem? Our job markets are eroding. How can we bring back good jobs? Up until recently housing prices were out of control. Let’s have them keep falling so my generation might one day be able to afford it. Why are bankers allowed to print money out of thin air and the consumer has to pay for it through inflation? Why has health insurance gone up 50% in 5 years? How do we bring down the cost of medical care?

Not to mention the baby boomers are going to make out nicely with Social inSecurity while my generation will pay for it. Or we’ll just borrow more from China. If I’m ever able to retire, there will either be nothing left, or the dollar will be so inflated that it won’t buy anything.

Sandy, the boomers are not doing too well judging by their retirement savings and they should just about break even with SSI. SSI was supposed to be welfare for the old and sick, now it's a 25 year retirement...

solutions? I'm afraid only pain will make americans realize that they need to produce more and borrow less. Good jobs? If you mean a union job that provides 75K a year, full health care, and pension at 55 all for tightening bolts at a factory, then I'm afraid that was all just a temporary blip of history since that has shown to be unsustainable. Productivity is what underpins living standards, not unions. We need more high productivity tools like the computer.

Affordable housing? In my area I can buy a double wide in the country for $40K. Pretty cheap. Once again though americans think a 4 bedroom mcmansion is a need. I have good news though, housing should come down. I also suggest moving to somewhere cheap.

Health care is so damned high because we are so damned sick, expect too much, and produce too litte. Old people on medicare need to die instead of laying in a home costing $150K a year, we need to stop saving every single crack baby, and mostly people have to take more responsibility for their lives and health- that won't happen though. The endgame is bankruptcy.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-30-08 09:11 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from marketsurfer:
You are thinking the wrong way. Selling stuff on ebay will normally get you nowhere fast. you need to think in terms of systems not selling stuff piece by piece. Business to me is one that runs by itself, a systematic money machine that has nothing to do with you "selling" directly. Setting up a recuring income stream is easier than you think-- start thinking in these terms and you should be able to start something that willl last.
surf

I list a bunch of items all at once, get the emails when they sell, print the postage labels, throw the item in a box, and drop it at the post office. Probably not as easy as it sounds, but it was pretty nice. What is so bad about that? The goal is to get something that I can make money at consistently and pay the bills, and then roll that money into other things like what you talk about. I used to have a few vending machines, but it’s just a few quarters here and there and it is hard to find a lot of locations to make it worthwhile.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-30-08 09:35 PM:

Quote from Mav88:

Sandy, the boomers are not doing too well judging by their retirement savings and they should just about break even with SSI. SSI was supposed to be welfare for the old and sick, now it's a 25 year retirement...

solutions? I'm afraid only pain will make americans realize that they need to produce more and borrow less. Good jobs? If you mean a union job that provides 75K a year, full health care, and pension at 55 all for tightening bolts at a factory, then I'm afraid that was all just a temporary blip of history since that has shown to be unsustainable. Productivity is what underpins living standards, not unions. We need more high productivity tools like the computer.

Affordable housing? In my area I can buy a double wide in the country for $40K. Pretty cheap. Once again though americans think a 4 bedroom mcmansion is a need. I have good news though, housing should come down. I also suggest moving to somewhere cheap.

Health care is so damned high because we are so damned sick, expect too much, and produce too litte. Old people on medicare need to die instead of laying in a home costing $150K a year, we need to stop saving every single crack baby, and mostly people have to take more responsibility for their lives and health- that won't happen though. The endgame is bankruptcy.

Posted by trendlover on 12-30-08 10:18 PM:

[QUOTE][i]Quote from Sandybestdog:[/

75k jobs are a bit of an extreme. I get $4.50 an hour plus tips when I get them and no benefits. I’m barely getting by on that, so even twice that would make a huge difference.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US...ate/by_Employer

Look Sandy, this is twice per hour rate more than pizza place that is making you stressed and frustrated, and your tips will be very good. Look at the other information on benefits at the top of the page. It is a start. You sound like you feel defeated so much that you lost hope. Get away from that pizza place and you will feel positive again when you make a little more money.

__________________
trendlover

Posted by brokershopping on 12-31-08 01:06 AM:

My good friend and I went to college together 20 years ago. In high school, he worked his butt off and saved a lot of money. I worked as little as possible and blew most of my money on junk. (I am not proud of this, just stating the facts)

When we paid for college, they took all of our money, his big pile and my little pile. We both got student loans, mine was only slightly higher than his. The rest of the money was paid by grants. A big pile of grant money for me and a small pile of grant money for him.

This is an anecdotal example of why it doesn't always pay to save. There are disincentives like this built into the structure of our society. It was not fair to my buddy, he got screwed for doing the right thing, and that shouldn't happen. (OTOH, the gov got a good return on it's investment by sending me to college, in the form of subsequent tax revenue).

Posted by Cutten on 12-31-08 01:28 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from gnome:

That is ESPECIALLY true of career traders. For the most part, (1) few survive "many years", and (2) those who have "survived many years" have done so because the conditions which could hurt them have not come around... YET. Unfortunately it takes only 1 or 2 significantly bad decisions to wipe out 20 years of gains...

On the other hand, someone who makes no significantly bad decisions *cannot* get wiped out by any market event at all, no matter how extreme (bad luck outside the markets can of course hit them e.g. cancer, car accident etc).

Trading is one of the few entrepreneurial businesses where the role of bad luck can be almost entirely eliminated.

Posted by nutmeg on 12-31-08 01:41 AM:

Once again though americans think a 4 bedroom mcmansion is a need.
---------------------------------------

Not really, but often times that is the only tax break that is available for high income earners. Also, if one could assume a %4 appreciation (or pick any % number you like) it adds up much better on a 300k home than a 40k home over the years.

Posted by nutmeg on 12-31-08 01:49 AM:

You sound like you feel defeated so much that you lost hope. Get away from that pizza place and you will feel positive again when you make a little more money.

________________________

I agree Trendlover, perhaps discouraged. He seems to be trying different things without much success.

The struggle to success is lonely and sometimes it is hard to tell if it just you or the environment. I can suggest "consistency", you gotta keep plugging away, even if it means finding out what doesn't work.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-31-08 02:12 AM:

Quote from trendlover:

[QUOTE][i]Quote from Sandybestdog:[/

75k jobs are a bit of an extreme. I get $4.50 an hour plus tips when I get them and no benefits. I’m barely getting by on that, so even twice that would make a huge difference.
http://www.payscale.com/research/US...ate/by_Employer

Look Sandy, this is twice per hour rate more than pizza place that is making you stressed and frustrated, and your tips will be very good. Look at the other information on benefits at the top of the page. It is a start. You sound like you feel defeated so much that you lost hope. Get away from that pizza place and you will feel positive again when you make a little more money.

Thank you. I will start looking next week. I don't think it's going to be as easy as it sounds. It's amazing because even though I get paid $4.50 an hour and don't get hardley enough to pay the car expenses, there is at least one person everyday that comes to fill out an application. Many people need jobs now and a lot of them will take just about anything right now.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-31-08 02:26 AM:

Quote from brokershopping:
My good friend and I went to college together 20 years ago. In high school, he worked his butt off and saved a lot of money. I worked as little as possible and blew most of my money on junk. (I am not proud of this, just stating the facts)

When we paid for college, they took all of our money, his big pile and my little pile. We both got student loans, mine was only slightly higher than his. The rest of the money was paid by grants. A big pile of grant money for me and a small pile of grant money for him.

This is an anecdotal example of why it doesn't always pay to save. There are disincentives like this built into the structure of our society. It was not fair to my buddy, he got screwed for doing the right thing, and that shouldn't happen. (OTOH, the gov got a good return on it's investment by sending me to college, in the form of subsequent tax revenue).

When I first went to the local community college a few years ago, I filled out all of the typical financial aid forms. I live with my parents but I was pretty much alone for the tuition. They said I didn’t qualify for anything but the “Board of Directors” scholarship. I thought I was all special until I looked up what it was for. It ended up being a one time scholarship for new students who didn’t qualify for anything else. So I got $500 for my first 2 semesters. I ran out of money after the first and didn’t go back.

I think we just need to find ways to lower the costs instead of looking for ways to pay for it. When my parents went to college I think they got half scholarships and worked part time jobs and graduated with no debt. You definitely can’t do that now.

Posted by brokershopping on 12-31-08 02:29 AM:

I say "amen" to the lower college costs. I am now saving for my daughters college education.

(I have abandoned my previous strategy)

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-31-08 02:54 AM:

Quote from nutmeg:
You sound like you feel defeated so much that you lost hope. Get away from that pizza place and you will feel positive again when you make a little more money.
________________________

I agree Trendlover, perhaps discouraged. He seems to be trying different things without much success.

The struggle to success is lonely and sometimes it is hard to tell if it just you or the environment. I can suggest "consistency", you gotta keep plugging away, even if it means finding out what doesn't work.

Thank you for the kind thoughts. You guys have certainly showed much more understanding than others here. I don’t want sympathy though. Yes I am very discouraged. I feel like I’ve tried everything and have lost at it all. I don’t blame anybody, but it is very difficult because literally nobody I know has any ambition. Nobody wants to change the world like me. Nobody wants to make lots of money and stick it to the man. Nobody wants to start a business. Nobody I know knows the what the bid – ask spread is. I’m trying to build an automated system now with Visual Basic. It’s like learning a whole new language. Nobody I know knows anything about programming. I search on the internet, but sometimes you just want someone to bounce ideas off of. The local community college has some intro classes which I might take. I feel like I’m swimming upstream by myself. I don’t know what’s wrong with people nowadays. It’s like they don’t want to get ahead.

Posted by marketsurfer on 12-31-08 03:14 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from Cutten:

On the other hand, someone who makes no significantly bad decisions *cannot* get wiped out by any market event at all, no matter how extreme (bad luck outside the markets can of course hit them e.g. cancer, car accident etc).

Trading is one of the few entrepreneurial businesses where the role of bad luck can be almost entirely eliminated.

however, without taking substantial, some may say extreme risk, you are just going to churn and barely survive. you will not be wiped out if your skilled, but your not going to get wealthy either unless you take huge risk---- of course there may be some exceptions--but they are indeed extremely rare.

in other words, if you eliminate the potential for bad luck by not taking enough risk, you will also eliminate the good luck that will make you rich.

surf

surf

Posted by trendlover on 12-31-08 04:39 AM:

Quote from nutmeg:

You sound like you feel defeated so much that you lost hope. Get away from that pizza place and you will feel positive again when you make a little more money.

________________________

I agree Trendlover, perhaps discouraged. He seems to be trying different things without much success.

The struggle to success is lonely and sometimes it is hard to tell if it just you or the environment. I can suggest "consistency", you gotta keep plugging away, even if it means finding out what doesn't work.

Yes, not easy. Sometimes a change to a different environment gives a better view, and less stress and anger. So much difference in living in a crime and poor neighborhood, then moving to a better place. Everything looks better.

__________________
trendlover

Posted by mokwit on 12-31-08 10:35 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from gnome:

That is ESPECIALLY true of career traders. For the most part, (1) few survive "many years", and (2) those who have "survived many years" have done so because the conditions which could hurt them have not come around... YET. Unfortunately it takes only 1 or 2 significantly bad decisions to wipe out 20 years of gains...

Agree, if you are going to survive long term i.e more than a few years you have to be brilliant or average but 'shock proof', which for me translates buying below a long term average or low and not using leverage. Effectively a value approach. Value players make money over the long term by not having devastating losses becuse they bought just after the conditions that cause devastating losses to those that buy higher up. It seems to me that many approaches are the same thing come at from a different angle. What I do would be regarded as Value by some, a Low P/BV by an academic etc.

I would argue true value investing is probably one of the few ways that almost anyone who is prepared to put in the same learning and effort as they would to develop a successful law or other professional practice can generate (possibly only modest) positive returns over the long run. i.e it is a viable business just like many others for someone of reasonable intelligence and dedication. The cash flow charateristics are 'feast and famine' but then so are many businesses. a friend in the high end Jewelry business pointed out to me that in that business, just like the stock market there are brief periods when you can make extraordinary returns, but you have to recognise it and be positioned to take advantage of ot - sound familiar to stock market players?

Seems to me all the money managers with multi year tenure are value players - if you buy below a long run average at some time the market will bail you out if you are unleveraged (this is key).

Riding commodity futures or hot stocks at nosebleed valuations seems to yield much shorter term success, as we have repeatedly seen. I was told by someone who would know that there a tiny handful of people who make serious money consistently and most make money one year and give it back over the following two years ie. make in bull and lose in bear.

As for 'buy and hold' this seems to have been a mantra that came about as commissions dropped. i.e. it was promoted by Wall St for their own benefit as they shifted to asset based fees as a way to offset this as fewer customer contact people would be needed to manage the same client base under this model and they could concentrate on selling higher value (to Wall St) products.

__________________
Regret is useless.

Posted by blackjack007 on 12-31-08 06:35 PM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Buying the Dow 30 years ago at 500 and buying a house for 30k that is now worth 500k, doesn’t make you an investing genius or hard working.

this is a bad example. how many homes went from $30k to $500k in 30 years? only in particular markets like san francisco did that happen. yet you compare best-case real estate markets with the dow which is merely an average case for stocks.

why don't you compare individual best-case stocks to best-case real estate markets?

doesn't take a genius to see which wins.

Posted by tradingbug on 12-31-08 06:55 PM:

Quote from gnome:

That's what "they" tell us. We don't need savings because we have RE and stocks...

How's that working out for everybody?

Problem on the RE end.... too many paid too much and leveraged to high without proper assets to support their risk exposure.

On the stocks end, they told us "buy and hold"... with no concept of basic timing.

By the time this mess is cleaned up, likely 2 or 3 generations of Americans will never invest in RE or stocks again...

Where will the money go? What are the other options to put savings towards that will keep up with inflation?

Seems like RE and Stocks are the only place to park wealth. Sure we are on a downswing in both assets but they will swing up eventually as over the long term the indexes and RE have continued to make new highs. I did say Lonnnnnnnnnng term.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 12-31-08 07:19 PM:

Quote from blackjack007:
this is a bad example. how many homes went from $30k to $500k in 30 years? only in particular markets like san francisco did that happen. yet you compare best-case real estate markets with the dow which is merely an average case for stocks.

why don't you compare individual best-case stocks to best-case real estate markets?

doesn't take a genius to see which wins.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. I’m not comparing stocks to real estate. A simple buy and hold approach in both markets have proven extremely beneficial over the past 30 years. This type of investing required no skill or hard work whatsoever. What I’m getting at is a lot of the older generation says that younger people are lazy and think they’re entitled to everything. But how much harder did they actually work? What I’m saying is buying and holding the Dow and turning 500 into 10,000 isn’t hard work or skill, it’s luck. If I told you in 30 years the Dow would be at 200,000, you’d think I’m crazy, but that’s exactly what it’s done. My parents bought our small townhouse in 1984 for 60k. At the height it was probably worth 350k. Now maybe 300k. They didn’t necessarilly do anything to warrant this, they got lucky. The baby boomer generation benefitted greatly from the huge inflation boom of the past 30 years that my generation is now paying for through higher prices. We all know that wages never keep up with inflation. It’s the way the man sticks it to you.

If you want to talk about best case scenarios, well I guess you could have bought MSFT in the 80’s and sold it 2000 and gone long gold or something like that. Real estate, - I guess it would have been nice to buy a plot of land right where a big hotel or government wanted to build something, and gotten a nice payoff.

Posted by stock_trad3r on 12-31-08 08:43 PM:

Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from Debaser82:

I live in that pighole of a socialist europe where the government takes 50% of your salary, you don't get to work for your own pockets untill after the summer, and still people over here save more then 10% of their income.

What gives?

Is it because the FED has run a more inflationary course then the ECB eroding the purchasing power of the dollar causing people to search for alternatives?

Or is it the US spirit where people are always on the outlook for the next bubble to grow so they can hop on and become rich overnight?

Or is this how capitalism is supposed to work? If you can't cut it bad luck and good night see you in the souplines?

Because we're in the new era which began under Reagan in 1982. That was the start of the transition from a type 0 to type one civilization.

Posted by trendlover on 12-31-08 09:03 PM:

Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from stock_trad3r:

Because we're in the new era which began under Reagan in 1982. That was the start of the transition from a type 0 to type one civilization.

I researched on the internet to see what you are talking about stocktrad3r. Interesting.

Type 0.1: Fluid groups of hominids living in Africa. Technology consists of primitive stone tools. Intra-group conflicts are resolved through dominance hierarchy, and between-group violence is common.

Type 0.2: Bands of roaming hunter-gatherers that form kinship groups, with a mostly horizontal political system and egalitarian economy.

Type 0.3: Tribes of individuals linked through kinship but with a more settled and agrarian lifestyle. The beginnings of a political hierarchy and a primitive economic division of labor.

Type 0.4: Chiefdoms consisting of a coalition of tribes into a single hierarchical political unit with a dominant leader at the top, and with the beginnings of significant economic inequalities and a division of labor in which lower-class members produce food and other products consumed by non-producing upper-class members.

Type 0.5: The state as a political coalition with jurisdiction over a well-defined geographical territory and its corresponding inhabitants, with a mercantile economy that seeks a favorable balance of trade in a win-lose game against other states.

Type 0.6: Empires extend their control over peoples who are not culturally, ethnically or geographically within their normal jurisdiction, with a goal of economic dominance over rival empires.

Type 0.7: Democracies that divide power over several institutions, which are run by elected officials voted for by some citizens. The beginnings of a market economy.

Type 0.8: Liberal democracies that give the vote to all citizens. Markets that begin to embrace a nonzero, win-win economic game through free trade with other states.

Type 0.9: Democratic capitalism, the blending of liberal democracy and free markets, now spreading across the globe through democratic movements in developing nations and broad trading blocs such as the European Union.

Type 1.0: Globalism that includes worldwide wireless Internet access, with all knowledge digitized and available to everyone. A completely global economy with free markets in which anyone can trade with anyone else without interference from states or governments. A planet where all states are democracies in which everyone has the franchise.

The forces at work that could prevent us from making the great leap forward to a Type 1 civilization are primarily political and economic. The resistance by nondemocratic states to turning power over to the people is considerable, especially in theocracies whose leaders would prefer we all revert to Type 0.4 chiefdoms. The opposition toward a global economy is substantial, even in the industrialized West, where economic tribalism still dominates the thinking of most politicians, intellectuals and citizens.

For thousands of years, we have existed in a zero-sum tribal world in which a gain for one tribe, state or nation meant a loss for another tribe, state or nation -- and our political and economic systems have been designed for use in that win-lose world. But we have the opportunity to live in a win-win world and become a Type 1 civilization by spreading liberal democracy and free trade, in which the scientific and technological benefits will flourish. I am optimistic because in the evolutionist's deep time and the historian's long view, the trend lines toward achieving Type 1 status tick inexorably upward.

That is change we can believe in.

Michael Shermer is an adjunct professor in the School of Politics and Economics at Claremont Graduate University, the publisher of Skeptic magazine and a monthly columnist for Scientific American. His latest book is "The Mind of the Market."

__________________
trendlover

Posted by Mav88 on 01-01-09 03:56 AM:

You seem mad at the world. Well the baby boomers benefitted for years from inflation, so I have no problem with their portfolio’s being cut in half. Buying the Dow 30 years ago at 500 and buying a house for 30k that is now worth 500k, doesn’t make you an investing genius or hard working.

Sandy, I am pissed at how this country is evolving, yes. Most boomers have very little saved up, let alone $500K even in their house. They basically pissed away the opportunity of a millenium.

75k jobs are a bit of an extreme. I get $4.50 an hour plus tips when I get them and no benefits. I’m barely getting by on that, so even twice that would make a huge difference. I think there is just too many people and not enough jobs. The market has gotten very tight. Productivity unfortunately reduces jobs as computers are now doing what humans used to. That’s just the way it goes, but newer technology should also create more jobs. There is always the same amount of money out there, it’s just continuosly switching hands between the few and the masses and vice versa.

My father worked as a supervisor at a tire factory. Workers could make six figs if they put in overtime, with full medical, and could retire at 55. They really were not worth that much as we are seeing now. Productivity tools simply displace jobs, nowadays no one complains that all the farm jobs are gone due to farm equipment. The problem is not that there are not enough jobs, it's that americans won't do them. How else do you explain tens of millions of illegal immigrants?

There isn't always the same amount of money and wealth out there, it is constantly created. The problem now is that money is being created faster than wealth.

$4.50 an hour? My son got $8 an hour just out of high school at Wal Mart. I find it hard to believe that a person can't do better than that.

I do live in a high cost housing area, but I’ve been here my whole life and this is home for now. I just can’t get up and move half way across the country.

I have no sympathy for that attitude, I have picked up and moved hundreds of miles, several times when necessary.

I think your points on health care are valid, but a little sympathy is ok. Of course longer life spans will cost more. However you’re using the typical political useless talk about responsibility. I was born with glaucoma. Over the past 3 years I had 2 very minor surgery’s by 2 different doctors. They knocked me out for about 2 hours. All of this cost about $2,600 each. My health insurance covered both. I’m not seeing how personal responsibility could have prevented that. $2600 for 3 hours is pretty pricey and that was minor surgery.

I've paid much more than you for health care for myself and family, it's no different than food and shelter. Responsibility is accepting that you alone own you and should not expect to live off the wealth created by others. It's not political, and it doesn't matter since I am very much in the minority. We are heading into socialism very quickly.

Posted by Mav88 on 01-01-09 03:59 AM:

For thousands of years, we have existed in a zero-sum tribal world in which a gain for one tribe, state or nation meant a loss for another tribe, state or nation -- and our political and economic systems have been designed for use in that win-lose world. But we have the opportunity to live in a win-win world and become a Type 1 civilization by spreading liberal democracy and free trade, in which the scientific and technological benefits will flourish. I am optimistic because in the evolutionist's deep time and the historian's long view, the trend lines toward achieving Type 1 status tick inexorably upward.

hopelessly idealistic and wrongheaded- typical

Posted by trendlover on 01-01-09 04:16 AM:

Quote from Mav88:

hopelessly idealistic and wrongheaded- typical

Yes, someone will always be the king of the jungle in different times.

__________________
trendlover

Posted by short&naked on 01-01-09 05:57 AM:

Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from Debaser82:

I live in that pighole of a socialist europe where the government takes 50% of your salary, you don't get to work for your own pockets untill after the summer, and still people over here save more then 10% of their income.

What gives?

Is it because the FED has run a more inflationary course then the ECB eroding the purchasing power of the dollar causing people to search for alternatives?

Or is it the US spirit where people are always on the outlook for the next bubble to grow so they can hop on and become rich overnight?

Or is this how capitalism is supposed to work? If you can't cut it bad luck and good night see you in the souplines?

Europeans save? Really? You are stuck back in 1980. Why do you think Germany now has a TV show called "Raus aus den Schulden"? (transl. Get out of debt)

http://rtl-now.rtl.de/rads.php

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-01-09 06:38 PM:

Quote from Mav88:

You seem mad at the world. Well the baby boomers benefitted for years from inflation, so I have no problem with their portfolio’s being cut in half. Buying the Dow 30 years ago at 500 and buying a house for 30k that is now worth 500k, doesn’t make you an investing genius or hard working.

Sandy, I am pissed at how this country is evolving, yes. Most boomers have very little saved up, let alone $500K even in their house. They basically pissed away the opportunity of a millenium.

So I guess it’s not just my generation that had an entitlement mentality and spent way too much. Regardless, I don’t know that many baby boomers who don’ at least have a bunch of equity.

Quote from Mav88:
75k jobs are a bit of an extreme. I get $4.50 an hour plus tips when I get them and no benefits. I’m barely getting by on that, so even twice that would make a huge difference. I think there is just too many people and not enough jobs. The market has gotten very tight. Productivity unfortunately reduces jobs as computers are now doing what humans used to. That’s just the way it goes, but newer technology should also create more jobs. There is always the same amount of money out there, it’s just continuosly switching hands between the few and the masses and vice versa.

My father worked as a supervisor at a tire factory. Workers could make six figs if they put in overtime, with full medical, and could retire at 55. They really were not worth that much as we are seeing now. Productivity tools simply displace jobs, nowadays no one complains that all the farm jobs are gone due to farm equipment. The problem is not that there are not enough jobs, it's that americans won't do them. How else do you explain tens of millions of illegal immigrants?

There isn't always the same amount of money and wealth out there, it is constantly created. The problem now is that money is being created faster than wealth.

$4.50 an hour? My son got $8 an hour just out of high school at Wal Mart. I find it hard to believe that a person can't do better than that. [/B]

Quote from Mav88:
I do live in a high cost housing area, but I’ve been here my whole life and this is home for now. I just can’t get up and move half way across the country.

I have no sympathy for that attitude, I have picked up and moved hundreds of miles, several times when necessary. [/B]

Well it’s not necessary now. I have no money to get started and no prospects. My life is here now. If something ever came up, then I would consder it. But just because the grass might be greener on the other side, doesn’t mean that it is.

Quote from Mav88:
I think your points on health care are valid, but a little sympathy is ok. Of course longer life spans will cost more. However you’re using the typical political useless talk about responsibility. I was born with glaucoma. Over the past 3 years I had 2 very minor surgery’s by 2 different doctors. They knocked me out for about 2 hours. All of this cost about $2,600 each. My health insurance covered both. I’m not seeing how personal responsibility could have prevented that. $2600 for 3 hours is pretty pricey and that was minor surgery.

I've paid much more than you for health care for myself and family, it's no different than food and shelter. Responsibility is accepting that you alone own you and should not expect to live off the wealth created by others. It's not political, and it doesn't matter since I am very much in the minority. We are heading into socialism very quickly. [/B]

I didn’t say anything about living off of others, I am asking why everything is so expensive. Continually rising prices doesn’t encourage others to want to work harder for the same thing, it encourages them to vote in the politician that will give them what they thought they were working hard to achieve in the first place.

I have said this before. Rich people will be responsible for bringing about Socialism, not the poor. The poor will vote it in, but the rich have caused the sentiment through their greed. Do you think Chase taking my interest rate from 8-24% for no reason encourages me to want a free society? No, I’m going to vote for the guy who will bring about changes that reduce the ability for some of the rich to take advantage of the poor.You see how greed leads to regulation? Nobody is saying Chase can’t make 8% off of me, but 24% is legal thievery.

Posted by MrsSavant on 01-01-09 06:44 PM:

Re: Why don't Americans save?

Socialist Europe,

It's because you have no hope of financial freedom or to be free of the government. The suppression from this independence actually works the opposite way you would imagine.

Wifey

Quote from Debaser82:

I live in that pighole of a socialist europe where the government takes 50% of your salary, you don't get to work for your own pockets untill after the summer, and still people over here save more then 10% of their income.

What gives?

Is it because the FED has run a more inflationary course then the ECB eroding the purchasing power of the dollar causing people to search for alternatives?

Or is it the US spirit where people are always on the outlook for the next bubble to grow so they can hop on and become rich overnight?

Or is this how capitalism is supposed to work? If you can't cut it bad luck and good night see you in the souplines?

Posted by Debaser82 on 01-01-09 06:47 PM:

Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from short&naked:

Europeans save? Really? You are stuck back in 1980. Why do you think Germany now has a TV show called "Raus aus den Schulden"? (transl. Get out of debt)

http://rtl-now.rtl.de/rads.php

Thats US culture spreading like a virus.

First the money masters tell the Americans what to do, then the Brits follow and then it's hard for the rest of the world not to follow but people do try.

Posted by karol88 on 01-01-09 07:27 PM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

I get $4.50 plus tips. 5 years ago when I started I got $5.25 plus better mileage reimbursement. The tips were better back then. These franchise owners do not care about you. They are paying people less than before, not more. My friend from an old store I used to work at told me he just quit after 5 years because they asked him to take a $1 pay cut. What gives? It is not worth it anymore and I will be looking for a new job starting next week. One day I hope to go into business against these greedy owners. I want to give people good jobs and incentive to work hard and build something. I will put those other people out of business and take all of their good employees and build a better world.

Sandythebestdog, you sound like a very good person, and I wish you all the best. Hope you can find a good job that pays well, or make the killing in the markets...believe in it, you deserve it.
I just want to add something about putting other people out of business.
In order to do that you will need plenty of money...because if you hire people and give them a very good pay regardless of how they behave...(I believe you are a good, honest worker, but you know that not every worker is like that...there are people that don't care about the job, steal, and can ruin someone's business.)
So after you paid everyone a nice salary, make the best product you can (let's say pizza) you will either have to sell it at inflated prices to make up for the high costs, or sell the pizza very cheap, but will never make any profit off of it. If you do the later (and your pizza and service IS really delicious) then you will probably get rid of most of the other businesses, but you will need a lot of money that comes from a different source to keep it going for at least a year or two.
My point is that, try to look at things objectively, many bosses are no good, but there are also many business owners that struggle....especially these days, cut costs just to stay afloat.

Posted by PohPoh on 01-01-09 07:36 PM:

Why save when you can earn about 1% a year...rather take risk and lose 50%

Posted by Bear Plunger on 01-01-09 08:35 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from Sandybestdog:

I list a bunch of items all at once, get the emails when they sell, print the postage labels, throw the item in a box, and drop it at the post office. Probably not as easy as it sounds, but it was pretty nice. What is so bad about that? The goal is to get something that I can make money at consistently and pay the bills, and then roll that money into other things like what you talk about. I used to have a few vending machines, but it’s just a few quarters here and there and it is hard to find a lot of locations to make it worthwhile.

Take his advice as a grain of salt. Ebay selling will teach you alot...before I got into the market - I was on Ebay selling a bunch of crap.

Posted by OutOfOptions11 on 01-01-09 09:00 PM:

Simple.....

We buy things we don't need with money we don't have to impress people we don't like. Sad but it's the norm for many here in America (yes, I am an American).

Posted by achilles28 on 01-01-09 09:02 PM:

Americans don't save because the monetary system encourages consumption.

Inflation eats savings, and time erodes value.

Culturally, we've become a Welfare State ruled by Madison Avenue.

Either the State provides or we splurge on useless trinkets Advertisers cast as inseparable from our worth.

Posted by PohPoh on 01-01-09 09:09 PM:

Re: Simple.....

Quote from OutOfOptions11:

We buy things we don't need with money we don't have to impress people we don't like.

Great stuff...thanks

Posted by stock_trad3r on 01-01-09 09:35 PM:

We're still in the era of bushism, reaganism, and palinism. We need to spend more and save less. More cheap labor, more insourcing, more outsourcing. No need for workers benefits, maternity leave, health care, retirement, nest eggs and other nonsense. need more consuption, tax cuts for rich, credit cards, and consumer debt so the US economy grows and the wealth gap widens.

Posted by nutmeg on 01-01-09 09:41 PM:

Quote from achilles28:

Culturally, we've become a Welfare State ruled by Madison Avenue.

Either the State provides or we splurge on useless trinkets Advertisers cast as inseparable from our worth. [/B]

Boyah Madison avenue (it is pretty sad). It's called an Identity crisis. Quote from Wiki.

According to Erikson's stages, the onset of the identity crisis is in the teenage years, and only individuals who succeed in resolving the crisis will be ready to face future challenges in life.

But the identity crisis may well be recurring, as the changing world demands us to constantly redefine ourselves.

Given today's rapid development in technology, global economy, dynamics in local and world politics, one might expect identity crises to recur more commonly now than even thirty years ago, when Erikson formed his theory

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-02-09 01:31 AM:

Quote from karol88:
Sandythebestdog, you sound like a very good person, and I wish you all the best. Hope you can find a good job that pays well, or make the killing in the markets...believe in it, you deserve it.
I just want to add something about putting other people out of business.
In order to do that you will need plenty of money...because if you hire people and give them a very good pay regardless of how they behave...(I believe you are a good, honest worker, but you know that not every worker is like that...there are people that don't care about the job, steal, and can ruin someone's business.)
So after you paid everyone a nice salary, make the best product you can (let's say pizza) you will either have to sell it at inflated prices to make up for the high costs, or sell the pizza very cheap, but will never make any profit off of it. If you do the later (and your pizza and service IS really delicious) then you will probably get rid of most of the other businesses, but you will need a lot of money that comes from a different source to keep it going for at least a year or two.
My point is that, try to look at things objectively, many bosses are no good, but there are also many business owners that struggle....especially these days, cut costs just to stay afloat.

Thank you for the kind words. I’m posting a link here about a previous post I made that answers the issue of higher prices for higher salaries. I know that this concept will take a lot of money. Let me say that I have worked for all 3 major pizza chains in my area, all franchises. People there hate their jobs. Granted many are what some would think of as losers, and frankly I can’t disagree with that about a lot of them. But they are hungry for opportunity, I just know it. They are sick of seeing the profits keep going up and they are always asked to do more work for less pay. They keep working because they don’t have the time, money, or desire to find something better. Putting them out of business is much easier than it sounds. They are literally always a few people away from not operating.

Did you know that that $2 delivery charge that you pay does not even go to the driver? None of it. They added it because they want more money and don’t want to raise the prices. So the customer thinks the tip is already included in the price and reduces the drivers tip. Isn’t that rediculous? The driver pays the entire cost of operating the vehicle and the delivery charge that is charged for delivery goes straight to the company. It’s a deceptive business practice and the driver pays for it. I have contacted my elected representatives about this, but I realize that the odds of fixing it are slim to none. I have better odds at just competing with them and taking their business.

Let me be clear, I’m not a big believer in just paying people big salary’s and not expecting more out of them. Frankly I think paying them minimum wage and then a cut of the monthly profits is much better. I want to change the way business is done. Instead of paying the least amount possible to hire someone who is going to work the least amount possible, I propose to create a new system where everybody is rewarded by how well the business does as a whole. Laziness will not be tolerated. Not doing what is in the best interest of the customer, will not be tolerated. Respect for your fellow employees and always seeing how you can improve the business for yourself and your fellow employees will be the standard. Obviously accountability so that nobody steals or doesn’t do there fair share will be essential. Also those that want to be in this system will need to take the risks that go along with higher opportunities. When times are bad like now, they will take pay cuts (bonus checks will be less). But even in this economy, restaurants are still making money.

Lastly, I would like to set up a system by which people can reinvest their bonus checks so that the business can expand. I’m not just going to invest a bunch of money and take all of the risk so that other people can have good jobs off of my hard work. They will be required to work their butt off, and they will, because they will see how their hard work pays off. Imagine how much is possible when people are given this kind of opportunity. We can change the world together. Even in this bad economy there is a lot of money out there.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...931#post2168931

Posted by trendlover on 01-02-09 02:40 AM:

http://www.flixya.com/post/bbkshop/...ting_a_Free_Car

Sandy, look here. You can get a car for free, or let a company shrink wrap your car for advertising. They pay you money too. So when you deliver your pizza, you will be paid for 2 jobs. Not sure is this a real advertising way or not, but look at all the websites they give you.

__________________
trendlover

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-02-09 02:41 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from Bear Plunger:
Take his advice as a grain of salt. Ebay selling will teach you alot...before I got into the market - I was on Ebay selling a bunch of crap.

I loved selling on eBay and was good at it. 2000 transactions and 1 negative feedback. Of course we all want the business that is hands free and continual income, but that’s hard to come by. I like it how you go to an Amway meeting and they talk about how it’s the perfect business. No inventory, no employees, overhead, franchise fees, or regulatory worries. Then you look at everyone there and realize they’re forgetting one thing- no money either. Then you realize they’re really just trying to start their own business using you as commission only labor and responsible for expanding your own business without much traditional help. That’s ok I guess, but it’s certainly not the dream business they promote it as. My overhead was a $75 a month storage unit. I work at a restaurant so I got all the free boxes I wanted. Of course I had to spend thousands of dollars at a time in inventory. No risk, no reward.

Posted by karol88 on 01-02-09 04:29 AM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Thank you for the kind words. Iï¿½m posting a link here about a previous post I made that answers the issue of higher prices for higher salaries. I know that this concept will take a lot of money. Let me say that I have worked for all 3 major pizza chains in my area, all franchises. People there hate their jobs. Granted many are what some would think of as losers, and frankly I canï¿½t disagree with that about a lot of them. But they are hungry for opportunity, I just know it. They are sick of seeing the profits keep going up and they are always asked to do more work for less pay. They keep working because they donï¿½t have the time, money, or desire to find something better. Putting them out of business is much easier than it sounds. They are literally always a few people away from not operating.

Did you know that that $2 delivery charge that you pay does not even go to the driver? None of it. They added it because they want more money and donï¿½t want to raise the prices. So the customer thinks the tip is already included in the price and reduces the drivers tip. Isnï¿½t that rediculous? The driver pays the entire cost of operating the vehicle and the delivery charge that is charged for delivery goes straight to the company. Itï¿½s a deceptive business practice and the driver pays for it. I have contacted my elected representatives about this, but I realize that the odds of fixing it are slim to none. I have better odds at just competing with them and taking their business.

Let me be clear, Iï¿½m not a big believer in just paying people big salaryï¿½s and not expecting more out of them. Frankly I think paying them minimum wage and then a cut of the monthly profits is much better. I want to change the way business is done. Instead of paying the least amount possible to hire someone who is going to work the least amount possible, I propose to create a new system where everybody is rewarded by how well the business does as a whole. Laziness will not be tolerated. Not doing what is in the best interest of the customer, will not be tolerated. Respect for your fellow employees and always seeing how you can improve the business for yourself and your fellow employees will be the standard. Obviously accountability so that nobody steals or doesnï¿½t do there fair share will be essential. Also those that want to be in this system will need to take the risks that go along with higher opportunities. When times are bad like now, they will take pay cuts (bonus checks will be less). But even in this economy, restaurants are still making money.

Lastly, I would like to set up a system by which people can reinvest their bonus checks so that the business can expand. Iï¿½m not just going to invest a bunch of money and take all of the risk so that other people can have good jobs off of my hard work. They will be required to work their butt off, and they will, because they will see how their hard work pays off. Imagine how much is possible when people are given this kind of opportunity. We can change the world together. Even in this bad economy there is a lot of money out there.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...931#post2168931

You make some very good points, and there's money to be made in the DC region and plenty of immigrants willing to work for half of the minimum wage. This makes things much more difficult for honest businesses to compete with the greedy ones.

Maybe its going to be easier to understand if you look at it from the employer point of view: he makes the pizza, he pays all the bills, he pays for the products, the ads, etc....and gives you $5 an hour weather he sells one or 10 pizzas an hour. If he only sells one pizza in that 1 hour: he is taking a cut on his part, he's giving away the potential profit to you. If he sells many pizzas during one hour, you're also making money because you'll get more tips. So from his point of view it's a win-win situation. That $2 delivery charge pays for the $5 he pays you, which is a rip off, but the employer figures that if there are very little or no sales he can still guarantee you the $5 an hour. ( You mentioned earlier that they make you work during off time, that's bad, and if they do, you should be getting paid the same per hour as the other employees that work at the shop).

Also, most business don't make ANY profits during the first 3 years (I think that's the standard, correct me if I'm wrong), and even if they finally start making money, they are not too eager to give it away in good salaries and bonuses...simply because they remember the difficult times and know that the good times will not last forever, not to mention that most are in debt. They would have no choice if there was no unemployment, and no immigrants willing to work for less....and this is not the case.

You have some great aspirations and ideas, but I think it's difficult to judge the situation if you have never been in the position of a business owner. It's not as easy as you think. as a business owner you will come to the realization that 90% of all businesses and people that work for them are there only to make money, and not there to improve the world. This will be the people you're dealing with, and it will make you sick! Once we realize it, it's much easier to become bitter and selfish just like them...it's a vicious cycle....unfortunately

I wish you all the best, and hope you can start a profitable business one day, survive the competition while you rewarding and treating your employees right

Posted by Bear Plunger on 01-02-09 04:54 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from Sandybestdog:

I loved selling on eBay and was good at it. 2000 transactions and 1 negative feedback. Of course we all want the business that is hands free and continual income, but that’s hard to come by. I like it how you go to an Amway meeting and they talk about how it’s the perfect business. No inventory, no employees, overhead, franchise fees, or regulatory worries. Then you look at everyone there and realize they’re forgetting one thing- no money either. Then you realize they’re really just trying to start their own business using you as commission only labor and responsible for expanding your own business without much traditional help. That’s ok I guess, but it’s certainly not the dream business they promote it as. My overhead was a $75 a month storage unit. I work at a restaurant so I got all the free boxes I wanted. Of course I had to spend thousands of dollars at a time in inventory. No risk, no reward.

The Ebay market taught you how to analyze your system. Think of it more as a learning process. I created a way to not spend much time on each transaction - for instance you probably did the same - you created those template pages so all you had to do is track the listing#. Mailing the products was not a big deal because I had to go to the post office anyways to do other stuff - and all the ancillary cost were charged to the winner anyways.

After awhile I wanted bigger gains so I moved to other markets.

Posted by TraderZones on 01-02-09 05:56 AM:

Who says they don't save?

It is called retirement plans like IRAs, 401Ks, stocks, home equity, and other forms of wealth. But it is not usually considered in "savings."

Even though they have taken a hit, Americans have a huge amount of assets compared to almost every other country,

Posted by index_trad3r on 01-02-09 06:16 AM:

Quote from hoodooman:

Migrants are risk takers. Its in the genes, I guess.

that's a very interesting observation...

Posted by marketsurfer on 01-02-09 01:53 PM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

better odds at just competing with them and taking their business.

Let me be clear, I’m not a big believer in just paying people big salary’s and not expecting more out of them. Frankly I think paying them minimum wage and then a cut of the monthly profits is much better. I want to change the way business is done. Instead of paying the least amount possible to hire someone who is going to work the least amount possible, I propose to create a new system where everybody is rewarded by how well the business does as a whole. Laziness will not be tolerated. Not doing what is in the best interest of the customer, will not be tolerated. Respect for your fellow employees and always seeing how you can improve the business for yourself and your fellow employees will be the standard. Obviously accountability so that nobody steals or doesn’t do there fair share will be essential. Also those that want to be in this system will need to take the risks that go along with higher opportunities. When times are bad like now, they will take pay cuts (bonus checks will be less). But even in this economy, restaurants are still making money.

Lastly, I would like to set up a system by which people can reinvest their bonus checks so that the business can expand. I’m not just going to invest a bunch of money and take all of the risk so that other people can have good jobs off of my hard work. They will be required to work their butt off, and they will, because they will see how their hard work pays off. Imagine how much is possible when people are given this kind of opportunity. We can change the world together. Even in this bad economy there is a lot of money out there.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...931#post2168931

funny!!

these ideas are nothing new

they are directly from the marx and lenin playbook.

it's called communism when the workers own the means of production. communism failed.

furthermore,

HARD WORK DOES NOT "PAY OFF" you bought the oldest myth in the book.

smart work pays off, and you are simply working dumb

surf

ps. that system you mention, where employees can reinvest their bonus checks is old news, it's called the STOCK MARKET.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-02-09 08:42 PM:

Quote from marketsurfer:
funny!!

these ideas are nothing new

they are directly from the marx and lenin playbook.

it's called communism when the workers own the means of production. communism failed.

furthermore,

HARD WORK DOES NOT "PAY OFF" you bought the oldest myth in the book.

smart work pays off, and you are simply working dumb

surf

ps. that system you mention, where employees can reinvest their bonus checks is old news, it's called the STOCK MARKET.

Hey jaska$$ you contridicted yourself. First you say my ideas are Communist and then you say my idea of reinvesting profits is the stock market. I don't think Communism has a stock market. Which one is it? I don’t think Communism rewards you directly by how well your individual business has done. And in Communism the STATE owns all production, NOT the workers. Do you sit there and listen to Sean Hannity all day or something? You sound very ignorant.

Let me get this straight. The current system works like this. The company hires employees to do a job and pays them just enough so they won’t quit, and the employees works a job just enough so they don’t get fired. Incentive is absent. Efficiency is almost non existent. The customer doesn’t receive the experience that they should. I propose a different system whereby the employees have a direct impact in the profits and losses of the company and share it accordingly. Obviously a new hire in high school is not going to receive the same bonus check as the General Manager who has been there a couple of years. Then when it’s time to build and expand the business, instead of getting an investor to put up the money who simply cares about his return on investment, the employees would instead become partners in the expansion. You think system 1 is better than number 2? Can I get some feedback from everybody else, I don’t understand this.

You are right, smart work pays off not necessarily hard work. So I want to exploit the weaknesses of other businesses. Very few low wage jobs offer any sort of bonus or advancement opportunities. Yet there is great money making opportunities in these areas.

BTW if I’m ever able to do anything like this and ever have a large business, we will never go public. The stock market is the worst thing for a business. All the investors care about is money. They don’t care if the employees get screwed over so they can get a dividend. They don’t care how the business makes money, they just want results and will dump you as soon as you don’t live up to their expectations. That’s how it goes I guess, but I won’t be apart of it. The profit that’s split won’t be company wide, it will be on a per store basis.

Posted by trendlover on 01-02-09 08:52 PM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Hey jaska$$ you contridicted yourself. First you say my ideas are Communist and then you say my idea of reinvesting profits is the stock market. I don't think Communism has a stock market. Which one is it? I don’t think Communism rewards you directly by how well your individual business has done. And in Communism the STATE owns all production, NOT the workers. Do you sit there and listen to Sean Hannity all day or something? You sound very ignorant.

Let me get this straight. The current system works like this. The company hires employees to do a job and pays them just enough so they won’t quit, and the employees works a job just enough so they don’t get fired. Incentive is absent. Efficiency is almost non existent. The customer doesn’t receive the experience that they should. I propose a different system whereby the employees have a direct impact in the profits and losses of the company and share it accordingly. Obviously a new hire in high school is not going to receive the same bonus check as the General Manager who has been there a couple of years. Then when it’s time to build and expand the business, instead of getting an investor to put up the money who simply cares about his return on investment, the employees would instead become partners in the expansion. You think system 1 is better than number 2? Can I get some feedback from everybody else, I don’t understand this.

You are right, smart work pays off not necessarily hard work. So I want to exploit the weaknesses of other businesses. Very few low wage jobs offer any sort of bonus or advancement opportunities. Yet there is great money making opportunities in these areas.

BTW if I’m ever able to do anything like this and ever have a large business, we will never go public. The stock market is the worst thing for a business. All the investors care about is money. They don’t care if the employees get screwed over so they can get a dividend. They don’t care how the business makes money, they just want results and will dump you as soon as you don’t live up to their expectations. That’s how it goes I guess, but I won’t be apart of it. The profit that’s split won’t be company wide, it will be on a per store basis.

Sandy, then there will always be people at the bottom who make less, even with your system.

__________________
trendlover

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-02-09 08:55 PM:

Quote from trendlover:

http://www.flixya.com/post/bbkshop/...ting_a_Free_Car

Sandy, look here. You can get a car for free, or let a company shrink wrap your car for advertising. They pay you money too. So when you deliver your pizza, you will be paid for 2 jobs. Not sure is this a real advertising way or not, but look at all the websites they give you.

Thanks for that. Does anybody have any experience with this? Most of the links were dead or just other portals, but a couple seemed legit. I read the FAQ and it seems that they usually don’t have steady advertising programs. Also I got the impressions that they only accept newer cars, which I certainly don’t have. Otherwise it seems like a great idea.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-02-09 09:00 PM:

Quote from trendlover:

Sandy, then there will always be people at the bottom who make less, even with your system.

That’s right. I’m not about equal pay, just equal opportunity. Obviously the system is not perfect and never will be. Just like in any other company there will be people who do more than their fair share and others that won’t. But ask yourself, which system would you rather be apart of?

Posted by marketsurfer on 01-02-09 09:02 PM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Hey jaska$$ you contridicted yourself. First you say my ideas are Communist and then you say my idea of reinvesting profits is the stock market. I don't think Communism has a stock market. Which one is it? I don’t think Communism rewards you directly by how well your individual business has done. And in Communism the STATE owns all production, NOT the workers. Do you sit there and listen to Sean Hannity all day or something? You sound very ignorant.

Let me get this straight. The current system works like this. The company hires employees to do a job and pays them just enough so they won’t quit, and the employees works a job just enough so they don’t get fired. Incentive is absent. Efficiency is almost non existent. The customer doesn’t receive the experience that they should. I propose a different system whereby the employees have a direct impact in the profits and losses of the company and share it accordingly. Obviously a new hire in high school is not going to receive the same bonus check as the General Manager who has been there a couple of years. Then when it’s time to build and expand the business, instead of getting an investor to put up the money who simply cares about his return on investment, the employees would instead become partners in the expansion. You think system 1 is better than number 2? Can I get some feedback from everybody else, I don’t understand this.

You are right, smart work pays off not necessarily hard work. So I want to exploit the weaknesses of other businesses. Very few low wage jobs offer any sort of bonus or advancement opportunities. Yet there is great money making opportunities in these areas.

BTW if I’m ever able to do anything like this and ever have a large business, we will never go public. The stock market is the worst thing for a business. All the investors care about is money. They don’t care if the employees get screwed over so they can get a dividend. They don’t care how the business makes money, they just want results and will dump you as soon as you don’t live up to their expectations. That’s how it goes I guess, but I won’t be apart of it. The profit that’s split won’t be company wide, it will be on a per store basis.

funny! I felt bad for you at first, but no longer.

no contradictions here.

Please don't argue economics or anything with me, unless you know what you are talking about. You have no clue of what you speak and that is likely why you have not advanced. Here is a brief overview of the marxist/communist ideal, it fits your beliefs perfectly. any questions?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production

Marxist analysis of ownership of MoP within capitalism
The analysis of people's relationships with the means of production is one element that stands at the basis of Marxism. Marxists argue that those means of production participate in the process of exploiting labor for surplus value.[1] To the question of why classes exist in human societies in the first place, Karl Marx offered an historical explanation that it was the cultural practice of Ownership of the Means of Production that gives rise to them. This explanation differs dramatically from other explanations based on "differences in ability" between individuals or on religious or political affiliations giving rise to castes. This explanation is consistent with the bulk of Marxist theory in which Politics and Religion are seen as mere outgrowths (superstructures) of the basic underlying economic reality of a people. To remain consistent with these principles, an explanation as to why classes exist in a society must derive from causes that are essentially economic in nature, and appeal to the alleged underlying reality of material production.

There are two subtle but important points to the Ownership of the Means of Production. The first being that owning the Means of Production is not the same thing as owning physical property, nor is it equal to owning money. Rather OMP refers to a cultural practice in which a few individuals within a larger corporation (or company) control and decide what is done with the entire profit created by that corporation. If one were to define the word "Corporation" as a particular kind of "group of people" then to later say that a few select individuals "own the corporation" then, by substitution, one must be saying that those select individuals own the group of people. In any case, this apparent paradox only arises when one confuses the owning of property with the owning of a corporation. When keeping these two kinds of ownership separate, the paradox of "owning people" evaporates.

The conclusion ultimately reached is that while the "owners" of a corporation only contribute a tiny fraction of the total labor and time in creating profit, they have complete control over that profit and how it is used. The practice of OMP in human societies is then a type of game where some people are labeled owners (Marx used the term, Bourgeoisie) and other people are labeled workers (Marx used the term, Proletariat). The bourgeoisie have complete control over both how the proletariat are paid in wages and complete control over how the profit from production is used, thus giving rise to a class division.

Contrarian interpretations of this practice might state that wages paid to workers are subsumed under the regular costs of maintaining business. However, Marx considered it a reification to treat labor as just another "factor" in production; it implied an inversion of means and ends, so that people were effectively used as things.

Marx's terms are often employed in economic analysis by socialists who advocate public ownership of some or all of the means of production. The affinity between labor movement causes and this advocacy is very strong - and often shared by social democrats, socialists, communists and greens. Marx's analysis in particular helped to make clear the key differences between capital and "labor".

Marxists define economic systems in terms of how the means of production are used, and which social class controls them. Thus, in capitalism, the means of production are controlled by the bourgeoisie, (the "capitalists" - the owners of capital). In the pure ideal of socialism, such as that "communism" was/is supposed to be, the MoP are controlled by the workers production collectives directly. In fact this situation has only been historically realized temporarily such as in the Israeli kibbutz or the early Soviets before the entrenchment of the communist party as a "New Class", or in isolated or preliminary form such as in the final phase of the Second Spanish Republic, or various experimental utopian communities.

Posted by MrktObserver4u on 01-02-09 09:19 PM:

Quote from gnome:

That's convoluted!

How about save your money, build up some capital and learn to invest.

Then you can spend the earnings on your capital over and over again... not to mention the capital necessary to sustain your life when you no longer have an income from employment.

There is no such thing as investing. Only speculation.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-03-09 05:51 PM:

Quote from karol88:

You make some very good points, and there's money to be made in the DC region and plenty of immigrants willing to work for half of the minimum wage. This makes things much more difficult for honest businesses to compete with the greedy ones.

Maybe its going to be easier to understand if you look at it from the employer point of view: he makes the pizza, he pays all the bills, he pays for the products, the ads, etc....and gives you $5 an hour weather he sells one or 10 pizzas an hour. If he only sells one pizza in that 1 hour: he is taking a cut on his part, he's giving away the potential profit to you. If he sells many pizzas during one hour, you're also making money because you'll get more tips. So from his point of view it's a win-win situation. That $2 delivery charge pays for the $5 he pays you, which is a rip off, but the employer figures that if there are very little or no sales he can still guarantee you the $5 an hour. ( You mentioned earlier that they make you work during off time, that's bad, and if they do, you should be getting paid the same per hour as the other employees that work at the shop).

Also, most business don't make ANY profits during the first 3 years (I think that's the standard, correct me if I'm wrong), and even if they finally start making money, they are not too eager to give it away in good salaries and bonuses...simply because they remember the difficult times and know that the good times will not last forever, not to mention that most are in debt. They would have no choice if there was no unemployment, and no immigrants willing to work for less....and this is not the case.

You have some great aspirations and ideas, but I think it's difficult to judge the situation if you have never been in the position of a business owner. It's not as easy as you think. as a business owner you will come to the realization that 90% of all businesses and people that work for them are there only to make money, and not there to improve the world. This will be the people you're dealing with, and it will make you sick! Once we realize it, it's much easier to become bitter and selfish just like them...it's a vicious cycle....unfortunately

I wish you all the best, and hope you can start a profitable business one day, survive the competition while you rewarding and treating your employees right

You make some very good points. Very well thought out unlike many others around here who just make blanket statements. I think it just all comes down to supply and demand. There are so many people out there that need jobs, they can pay however much they want and treat people how they want because there is always someone else at the door willing to do it for less. The turnover at these place is very high. There are many risks to starting a business and they should be rewarded when the business succeeds. But I think you’re right most owners and employees just care about themselves and not improving anything. Employers hire people who work just enough to not get fired and pay them just enough so they won’t quit.

I have started several very small businesses and know the challeges they face. A few years ago I had a small store in the mall that didn’t work out at all. Even something like that required a lot of capital. I am very aware of the costs in doing business.

BTW the delivery charge is a scam. The price of delivery is already included in the pizza. It used to be that a pizza cost $10 and the customer paid $10 and they driver kept 86 cents for mileage (that’s what I get, it varies). Now, the pizza costs $10 plus a $2 delivery charge. The customer pays $12 and the driver keeps 86 cents. You see the scam? They are charging for delivery and not giving it to the one that incurrs the cost of delivery. They keep it for themselves. Of course the charge is not stated anywhere on the menu or advertisements, and naturally customers think I get it and tip less. On top of that when the states raised the minimum wage, instead increasing the pay, they just decreased the drivers pay $1 to pay for the instore people who they needed to pay more, and then made the driver claim their tips to get them above the minimum wage. So minimum wage goes up and pay goes down. That’s messed up. And they are still required to do other things in the store like cook and clean and answer phones for that $4.50 an hour. Anyways I’ve had enough of it and will start looking for a new job next week. It’s not worth it anymore. I’m not here to complain to get sympathy, I’m trying to point out some reasons why people don’t save.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-03-09 05:58 PM:

Quote from marketsurfer:

funny! I felt bad for you at first, but no longer.

no contradictions here.

Quote from marketsurfer:
funny!!
these ideas are nothing new
they are directly from the marx and lenin playbook.
it's called communism when the workers own the means of production. communism failed.

Quote from marketsurfer:

ps. that system you mention, where employees can reinvest their bonus checks is old news, it's called the STOCK MARKET.

That’s not a contridiction? Oh well.

Quote from marketsurfer:
Please don't argue economics or anything with me, unless you know what you are talking about. You have no clue of what you speak and that is likely why you have not advanced. Here is a brief overview of the marxist/communist ideal, it fits your beliefs perfectly. any questions?

You say I don’t know what I’m talking about, but haven’t actually pointed to anything I’ve said and contridicted it. You just called my ideas Communist. The very premis of Communism is that it discourages incentive and those that produce more are forced to give to those that produce less. Is this what I am proposing? What I propose is giving people incentive to perform better and increase efficiency. Your idea of the status quo discourages incentive. Don’t blame me the next time you go to a fast food joint and they messed up your order because they are only getting $7 an hour and don’t care about anything.

That’s ok if you want to critisize my ideas. The college professor of the ceo of FedEx told him his idea would never work and gave him an F. Who’s laughing now? He saw an opportunity and so do I.

Quote from marketsurfer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production

Marxists define economic systems in terms of how the means of production are used, and which social class controls them. Thus, in capitalism, the means of production are controlled by the bourgeoisie, (the "capitalists" - the owners of capital). In the pure ideal of socialism, such as that "communism" was/is supposed to be, the MoP are controlled by the workers production collectives directly. In fact this situation has only been historically realized temporarily such as in the Israeli kibbutz or the early Soviets before the entrenchment of the communist party as a "New Class", or in isolated or preliminary form such as in the final phase of the Second Spanish Republic, or various experimental utopian communities. [/B]

I disagree with the wording of this. The premise of Communism is not that the workers controlled the means of production, but that the government does. The government is not the people. In Communism the government fundamentally own all of the wealth and decide how it will be redistributed while meanwhile taking a large cut for themselves. In my system the workers will in essence have a direct ownership interest in the success or failure of their work and the business as a whole. Plus those that are lazy will be kicked out The incentive is there so how can it be Communist? Please try to answer points directly this time instead of making broad statements that are untrue.

Posted by Mav88 on 01-03-09 08:01 PM:

Then what jobs are worth decent pay? All the factory jobs are gone, a thing of the past. Wages have been reduced so dramatically that if you don’t take risks and start a business or have some super specialized skill, you won’t be making a decent living. Also the cost of living has gone up so dramatically that it’s a struggle just to stay ahead.

There are millions of illegal immigrants because apparantly their countries economies are worse than ours. They are in search of a better life like everybody else. If their governments weren’t so corrupt, then maybe their economies would be better. But that’s not our problem. You’re drinking the Bush Kool Aid.That’s just crap he came up with to help out his buddies get cheap labor. There is no such thing as jobs Americans won’t do, just jobs that don’t pay Americans what their worth.

yup, you are a communist Sandy- Complain all day that someone doesn't hand you a good job while you work for $4.50 an hour at a pizza joint when you have the freedom to quit. Let's see, some super specialized skill like nursing? welding? accounting? policeman??

I mop the floors. But I’m not going to work for below minimum wage under the table. Insourcing is just as much a problem as outsourcing. Nothing is ever said about how much the careless immigration policies we have are actually costing us. Sure employers are saving on cheap labor, but think of how much that ends up costing society. They don’t have health insurance so they just go to the hospital and we end up paying for it. They have 500 kids and put them all in public schools, which we pay for. Overcrowding leads to even more schools needing to be built. They usually all receive public assistance in some way, which we pay for. They obviously are not paying much taxes because they aren’t making much money in the first place. So maybe all that cheap labor ended up costing more in the end than just paying an American enough to have a decent life.

I am against illegal immigration, but if you don't have any more education or skills than an illegal immigrant than either you are dumb or lazy.

Give me one example of an American who refuses to do low end jobs that will provide a decent living. I’ll do it.

Construction. Previous next door neighbor owned a roofing business during the housing boom. Could not get american kids to take the work even though he offered training into a higher paying position. Too late for that one, but you have not defined decent. Why should an entry level person with no skills get $30K a year when they aren't worth it- that is they are incapable of creating as much wealth as they consume?

Surf said it right, hard work means nothing, it's what you actually produce. You can mop floors all day long but in the end you haven't produced jack in terms of wealth useable by someone else, unless of course you offer a floor mopping service that many people are willing to pay you for.

What do you think your son is doing working at Wal-Mart? Isn’t that a job that American’s won’t do? Apparantly not. The question is will he do it after taking a pay cut so the government can bring in new immigrants who will do it for less. Think about it.

I have thought about it. My son stocked the dairy at a super Wal Mart simply because he needed money for college. It was easy work and Wal Mart gets a bad rap for being on the 'bottom'. I could not get him to take harder jobs that paid more, oh well. If he think he is not getting enough pay, I am teaching him to take a realistic view of the world around him and try and do something about it. Right now he makes even more as an engineering intern in the time he has off. To sit and bitch that someone else should make sure he makes a living is childish, and leftist. I will agree however that globalism is probably not healthy for americans, but there are still ways to make money.

I have many friends that are first generation to come here. Most are hard working, but I think the time has come for us to really reexamine our immigration policies. Also immigrants very rarely ever go into the military. Why? Well I’ll leave that up to you. I didn’t go in because that life is just not for me, but you can bet that if my country ever asked or needed me to serve, I would. Can you say the same about most immigrants that come here? Also I believe there are many other ways to serve your country than just the military.

The military is actually a good paying job with lots of opportunities for advancement. I doubt most immigrants could fit in, but some manage to do so as a means to obtain citizenship. As I said, I agree that illegal immigration is a problem.

Yes, new money is always being created, but it certainly ain’t the little guy getting it. That’s how they rich screw the little guy. They don’t take more money from the poor, they just create more of it and keep it and thereby devalue what little the poor and middle class have. I contend it’s the largest and most secretive theft in human history.

Learn the game, then play it. You won't get super rich, but you can probably make a living. I am assuming you have some intelligence and drive of course. To want the type of security you are talking about means giving up liberty- no thanks.

I disagree with the wording of this. The premise of Communism is not that the workers controlled the means of production, but that the government does. The government is not the people. In Communism the government fundamentally own all of the wealth and decide how it will be redistributed while meanwhile taking a large cut for themselves. In my system the workers will in essence have a direct ownership interest in the success or failure of their work and the business as a whole. Plus those that are lazy will be kicked out The incentive is there so how can it be Communist? Please try to answer points directly this time instead of making broad statements that are untrue.

In true communism the workers own the means and there isn't much of a government, but we already have that through many existing coops and stock ownership by employees. The beauty of liberty is that you can be a communist if you want to- just join a coop.

The problem with your thinking is that it is simplistic and idealistic. We already have many companies like that as I mentioned, they don't perform or really pay any better than average and most ambituous people would rather work at a place where they can invest as they see fit. It is not that easy to kick out the lazy or even prove someone is lazy, workers have rights and people are corrupt.

The market generally rewards people with skills that can produce something of value. Your real problem is that you don't have those skills

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-04-09 07:00 PM:

Quote from Mav88:

Then what jobs are worth decent pay? All the factory jobs are gone, a thing of the past. Wages have been reduced so dramatically that if you don’t take risks and start a business or have some super specialized skill, you won’t be making a decent living. Also the cost of living has gone up so dramatically that it’s a struggle just to stay ahead.

There are millions of illegal immigrants because apparantly their countries economies are worse than ours. They are in search of a better life like everybody else. If their governments weren’t so corrupt, then maybe their economies would be better. But that’s not our problem. You’re drinking the Bush Kool Aid.That’s just crap he came up with to help out his buddies get cheap labor. There is no such thing as jobs Americans won’t do, just jobs that don’t pay Americans what their worth.

yup, you are a communist Sandy- Complain all day that someone doesn't hand you a good job while you work for $4.50 an hour at a pizza joint when you have the freedom to quit. Let's see, some super specialized skill like nursing? welding? accounting? policeman??

You can call me a Communist all day, but that doesn’t negate what I say. Again the title of the thread is “why don’t Americans save”? You only want to hear it’s because people bought big screen tv’s, Hummers, and 5 bedrooms homes. I’m telling you there is a different side to the story. You just don’t want to believe it.

I have had a Life and Health insurance license for 6 years but have never sold anything. I worked full time for 6 months, but my partner never sold anything and I ran out of money, so I went back to pizza delivery. It’s a tough business. You are either all commission and get no help, or if you have an MBA you might be able to get a salary to get you through when you don’t sell anything. I wouldn’t mind working in that field again as an assistant or something, but I have a conscience. And usually those with a conscience don’t make it in the insurance industry. I’m not trying to make excuses, but the insurance business is hard and not for everyone.

Quote from Mav88:
I mop the floors. But I’m not going to work for below minimum wage under the table. Insourcing is just as much a problem as outsourcing. Nothing is ever said about how much the careless immigration policies we have are actually costing us. Sure employers are saving on cheap labor, but think of how much that ends up costing society. They don’t have health insurance so they just go to the hospital and we end up paying for it. They have 500 kids and put them all in public schools, which we pay for. Overcrowding leads to even more schools needing to be built. They usually all receive public assistance in some way, which we pay for. They obviously are not paying much taxes because they aren’t making much money in the first place. So maybe all that cheap labor ended up costing more in the end than just paying an American enough to have a decent life.

I am against illegal immigration, but if you don't have any more education or skills than an illegal immigrant than either you are dumb or lazy.

Well, I speak English for one. Obviously, I speak it well enough to piss you guys off. I suppose knowing every street on the map including the street numbers doesn’t count as a skill? I can make pizza really good. I have sold 2000 items on Amazon and eBay and have 100% feedback. Unfortunately, I can’t find more items to sell. I can type 50 words a minute as well and am proficient in Excel and Word. Whatever I do that will eventually get me ahead, I will need to do it on my own. Nobody looking at my resume cares about any of the above, save one. The first thing they see is PIZZA DELIVERY and the first thing they think is the same thing you’re thinking, LOSER. NEXT. It’s actually a bad thing to have it on there. It would be better if it were blank. In 6 years, not only have I never gotten a job as a result of someone seeing my resume, but I have only gotten one call and that was because they were selling an eBay related product. So relying on people to give me a job isn’t going to work, I am going to have to go find it.

Anyways, I am probably going to take an intro to programming class at my local community college. I’ve been trying to program a trading system and would like to learn the fundamentals and see if that might lead to a job. $295 for a 18 hour non credit class. Gee it sure is expensive to try to get ahead. Hit up the credit card at 24 % interest.

Quote from Mav88:
Give me one example of an American who refuses to do low end jobs that will provide a decent living. I’ll do it.

Construction. Previous next door neighbor owned a roofing business during the housing boom. Could not get american kids to take the work even though he offered training into a higher paying position. Too late for that one, but you have not defined decent. Why should an entry level person with no skills get $30K a year when they aren't worth it- that is they are incapable of creating as much wealth as they consume?

Surf said it right, hard work means nothing, it's what you actually produce. You can mop floors all day long but in the end you haven't produced jack in terms of wealth useable by someone else, unless of course you offer a floor mopping service that many people are willing to pay you for. [/B]

I don’t know where you live, but where I’m at the construction industry is comprised of 90% Hispanics. Your neighbor would not want not want to hire any American kids because he can pay $7 an hour under the table for insourced labor.

I applaud him however if he did offer training and advancement opportunites. I think apprenticeships are a great thing, but I have never really found one. Like I said I have an insurance license, but no company really offers an apprentiseship. They sign you up and tell you to go sell. If you don’t make it in a few months, then you die out. Again I’m not blaming anybody for not making it, but that’s how it is.

Quote from Mav88:
What do you think your son is doing working at Wal-Mart? Isn’t that a job that American’s won’t do? Apparantly not. The question is will he do it after taking a pay cut so the government can bring in new immigrants who will do it for less. Think about it.

I have thought about it. My son stocked the dairy at a super Wal Mart simply because he needed money for college. It was easy work and Wal Mart gets a bad rap for being on the 'bottom'. I could not get him to take harder jobs that paid more, oh well. If he think he is not getting enough pay, I am teaching him to take a realistic view of the world around him and try and do something about it. Right now he makes even more as an engineering intern in the time he has off. To sit and bitch that someone else should make sure he makes a living is childish, and leftist. I will agree however that globalism is probably not healthy for americans, but there are still ways to make money.

You say it’s rediclous that people should ask for 30k when they aren’t worth it, but that’s exactly what you got growing up, so why should my generation ask for anything less? Let me explain. In 1975 the minimum wage was $2.10. Now if you simply take that and multiply it by the yearly CPI (which we know is crap and inaccurate) you will find that if minimum wage simply stayed consistent with inflation, it should be approximately $8.83 in 2007. Of course it was $5.85 then. If you take the housing market as a different gauge of inflation you will see that the average home in 1975 was worth $35,300. In 2005 it was worth $214,000. This is just the latest stats I saw on a website. This represents a 606% increase. If you multiply that times $2.10, you will see that if minimum wage was indexed to housing, it should $12.73 in 2007.

Now your son makes $8 an hour. So taking the 2007 minimum wage, Wal-Mart valued him at 36% above minimum wage. So if minimum wage were indexed to the cpi, your son should actually be making $12.08 an hour. If it were to housing then he should actually be making $17.41 an hour. $17.41 times 40 hours a week, times 52 weeks a year = …………. $36,212 a year. FOR WORKING AT WAL- MART! If he had been making $12.08 then it would still be over $25,000 a year. So in affect somebody in 1975 doing the same thing did make 30K a year, not including benefits. So you’re calling me a lazy Communist who thinks he’s owed everything for simply wanting the same thing you had at my age. Still feel the same way?

BTW I love going to Wally World and I wish your son all the best. But don’t blame me if in a few years he comes to you and says he simply can’t get ahead no matter how hard he tries. It’s much harder for our generation.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-04-09 07:07 PM:

Quote from Mav88:
I have many friends that are first generation to come here. Most are hard working, but I think the time has come for us to really reexamine our immigration policies. Also immigrants very rarely ever go into the military. Why? Well I’ll leave that up to you. I didn’t go in because that life is just not for me, but you can bet that if my country ever asked or needed me to serve, I would. Can you say the same about most immigrants that come here? Also I believe there are many other ways to serve your country than just the military.

The military is actually a good paying job with lots of opportunities for advancement. I doubt most immigrants could fit in, but some manage to do so as a means to obtain citizenship. As I said, I agree that illegal immigration is a problem.

They seem to fit in taking all of our other jobs. Why can’t they do our fighting as well, at half the price of course? Think of how much it will save the taxpayer.

Quote from Mav88:
Yes, new money is always being created, but it certainly ain’t the little guy getting it. That’s how they rich screw the little guy. They don’t take more money from the poor, they just create more of it and keep it and thereby devalue what little the poor and middle class have. I contend it’s the largest and most secretive theft in human history.

Learn the game, then play it. You won't get super rich, but you can probably make a living. I am assuming you have some intelligence and drive of course. To want the type of security you are talking about means giving up liberty- no thanks.

Whoa! Hold on there. Are we talking about the same thing? If you’re talking about the Patriot Act and all that, I’m with you on that. I am talking about the fact that the rich and the banks and the government can print money out of thin air. The little guy inevitable pays for it that through inflation, and decreased wages, as I outlined above. Having our currency backed up by gold so it can’t be manipulated has nothing to do with security. This is how the rich screw the little guy. As outlined above, wages never keep up with inflation. However the rich are hedged and profit through inflation.

It’s nice to know I won’t get “super rich,” but can probably “make a living.” Isn’t that the premise of Communism?

Quote from Mav88:
I disagree with the wording of this. The premise of Communism is not that the workers controlled the means of production, but that the government does. The government is not the people. In Communism the government fundamentally own all of the wealth and decide how it will be redistributed while meanwhile taking a large cut for themselves. In my system the workers will in essence have a direct ownership interest in the success or failure of their work and the business as a whole. Plus those that are lazy will be kicked out The incentive is there so how can it be Communist? Please try to answer points directly this time instead of making broad statements that are untrue.

In true communism the workers own the means and there isn't much of a government, but we already have that through many existing coops and stock ownership by employees. The beauty of liberty is that you can be a communist if you want to- just join a coop.

The problem with your thinking is that it is simplistic and idealistic. We already have many companies like that as I mentioned, they don't perform or really pay any better than average and most ambituous people would rather work at a place where they can invest as they see fit. It is not that easy to kick out the lazy or even prove someone is lazy, workers have rights and people are corrupt.

The market generally rewards people with skills that can produce something of value. Your real problem is that you don't have those skills [/B]

You’re right I don’t have any skills. I pissed away my time deliverying pizza and tried to use the money I made to start business’s and invest. Obviously that didn’t work out. But why am I continually making less and less money and paying more and more for the cost of living while doing the same thing? OK so I don’t get ahead deliverying pizza, but in the past few years, I’ve been moving backwards. Again, we have this premise in this country that people should work even harder just to maintain the same level of living. I’m swimming upstream here and everytime I wash out and have to jump back in the river, the current gets stronger and stronger. My and others inability to get ahead has little to do with my lack of skills, because a few years ago those same lack of skills made a lot more money. Do you think the money I’ve used to start business’s or trading came from my rich uncle? Every dime has been earned deliverying pizza. I used to save more than $1000 a month to use, but now I am spending more than I make.

Also everything has worth to it. You just see it as pizza delivery. Think of it in a business sense. The company provides a delivery service to increase it’s sales. Instead of buying its own cars, paying the insurance, gas, repairs, etc, they just hire me to use my own car pay me 86 cents a delivery. Clearly this brings more value to the business than say a cashier that just shows up to work. However like I’ve said before, the job market is so tight that companies don’t care anymore, there is always somebody else at the door willing to do it for less.

Posted by harkm on 01-04-09 08:35 PM:

Sandybestdog, if you put in the same effort in getting a high paying job as you have in this thread you will be making 6 figures.

Posted by nutmeg on 01-04-09 08:39 PM:

But why am I continually making less and less money and paying more and more for the cost of living while doing the same thing?
------------------------------

I do not find this extraordinary. This happens even in business. Expenses go up (ie gas recently) no way to recoup the cost except work longer hours.

Imo, two young people who get married, each need a 40hr work week to get by, 50 hours and you can have a few things, if they both work 60 hrs a week, they can save and have nice things. Point being if you're working 60 hs a week, you should be on track for a better future, promotion, etc where you can work less hours and have the same standard of living.

Ask anyone in business how many hours they work a week, I think you'll find the hours worked are well over 60.

Tough economy to find employement with jobs letting you work over 30 hours, people have to have two jobs.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-05-09 05:22 AM:

Quote from harkm:

Sandybestdog, if you put in the same effort in getting a high paying job as you have in this thread you will be making 6 figures.

Yup. You’re the second person to tell me that in the past week. I’m pretty much done now. Except I have worked more than my share of 80 hour weeks. I have invested tens of thousands of dollars in businesses and trading and pretty much lost it all. So I don’t really know how much more “effort” I can put into it.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-05-09 05:40 AM:

Quote from nutmeg:

But why am I continually making less and less money and paying more and more for the cost of living while doing the same thing?
------------------------------
I do not find this extraordinary. This happens even in business. Expenses go up (ie gas recently) no way to recoup the cost except work longer hours.

Imo, two young people who get married, each need a 40hr work week to get by, 50 hours and you can have a few things, if they both work 60 hrs a week, they can save and have nice things. Point being if you're working 60 hs a week, you should be on track for a better future, promotion, etc where you can work less hours and have the same standard of living.

Ask anyone in business how many hours they work a week, I think you'll find the hours worked are well over 60.

Tough economy to find employement with jobs letting you work over 30 hours, people have to have two jobs.

Isn’t it amazing how much technology and innovation we have, yet it’s this hard to get ahead?

Did anybody see the front page of the business section of the Washington Post today? It pretty much talked about several people who were needing to get second jobs to just keep up with the bills and provide a cushion in case they got laid off. Like me, they are also wondering why they keep working harder and harder, but their paychecks stay the same and the cost of living goes up and up. Maybe they’re Communists too.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...9010300057.html

Posted by forextrades on 01-05-09 06:04 AM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Isn’t it amazing how much technology and innovation we have, yet it’s this hard to get ahead?

Did anybody see the front page of the business section of the Washington Post today? It pretty much talked about several people who were needing to get second jobs to just keep up with the bills and provide a cushion in case they got laid off. Like me, they are also wondering why they keep working harder and harder, but their paychecks stay the same and the cost of living goes up and up. Maybe they’re Communists too.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...9010300057.html

If you make so little money, I'm sure you could easily qualify for financial aid if you go to college. Become a nurse or something. In 2-years you'll be making at least 40k.

Delivering/making pizzas was never considered skilled labor.

__________________
"Mom, this is Mark Bingham."

Posted by clacy on 01-05-09 06:32 AM:

Sanybestdog,

First let me say that I empathize with you to some degree. It can be very difficult and challenging to find whatever it is that you are best suited for in the workplace.

From reading your posts, you seem like a well intentioned guy, but I can assure you that ONLY YOU will be able to fix your situation and figure out how to get ahead in this world.

In my opinion, it sounds like sales isn't your thing (the insurance thing). Don't get down on yourself, as it's not for everyone. I'm in sales and it is extremely difficult and stressful. I've been lucky enough to make a good living through sales, but I hate it at times. With that said, regardless of what you're selling, if you didn't sell any insurance policies in 6 months, your probably not cut out for sales.

As you know delivering pizza, simply won't pay the bills if that's your primary income. That is a fine job for someone who is supplementing their income or a student, etc, but for most adults, that don't want to live in their parents basement their entire life, it won't get you ahead.

I think you clearly need to get enrolled in some sort of educational program to pick up some additional skills. Plumbing, electrical, construction contractors have the ability to earn a lot of money, so you may consider those. In fact, the sky is the limit, for those that possess those skills and have some good business savy. If you can market those skills and you're dependable, you can do very well in those arenas. It sounds however, that marketing isn't your strong suite though, as you seem to have a very hard time marketing yourself well enough to find jobs, other than pizza, etc.

As someone else pointed out, healthcare is another field that is growing (meaning jobs are being created everyday) and there are many positions within healthcare that pay well. Most of the positions that pay well, will require some additional training. I had a buddy that became a respiratory therapist, which paid fairly well and he didn't have to work that hard. Typically I think he worked 3 12-hour shifts/week and was paid full time (benny's etc). There are dozens of techincian jobs in varius areas of hospitals and healthc clinics.

Another option mentioned is the military. They will pay you and you receive training for post-military while your on the job. In fact, you don't even need to go full time with the mililtary as they need reservists as well.

Restaurant management is another option. Why don't you work your way up the chain? Please don't give any excuses, as I've seen if for my own eyes, that you can become a millionare, simply by working your ass off in the restaurant industry. My dad, was out of work after he quit his job in law enforcement due to a conflict with his superior. He had a family, bills to pay, no college degree, or any other training. But, he didn't sit around and complain, ask for handouts, etc. Instead, he started out as an assistant for a burger chain. Not exactly an impressive job is it? But he worked his ass off, and moved up very quickly, eventually managing 70 restaurants for a major chain. He started 20-some years ago and now he owns his own multi-million dollar restaurant and is in negotiations to buy a second. By the way, you don't have to be "wall street" talented to do that, but you do have to work hard. When I say work hard, as you probably know, to make it in that business, 70-80hr work weeks are the norm.

The point that I'm making (and others have made) is there is an almost unending list of ways for you to be successful, financially in the US. This truly is the "land of opportunity".

It's your job though, to go out and figure it out and do it. The goverment cannot and will not help you, regardless of what they promise, or how badly you pretend that the US could become a communist/socialist utopia.

Best of luck.

Posted by clacy on 01-05-09 07:03 AM:

After reading the entire thread, I have to admit Sandy, that you sound extremely negative and depressed. I don't want to kick you when you're down, but you need a more positive, can-do attitude. I know that sounds a little corny (it does to me too), but good God, every piece of advice that other posters gave, you responded with an excuse or reason why you couldn't do it.

I think before anything changes for you, you are going to have to figure out a way to reverse that menatility. If you go through life with a "pitty party" attitude, and keep coming up with reasons why you can't get ahead, YOU WON'T GET AHEAD.

I really do hope that you take these past two post constructively, as I am not trying to be a dick. I just think that I've seen too many of my friends and others in your age range that have become successful, to believe that you cannot make it in this country.

It's all out there for you, but you'll never get any of it, with your current attitude.

That's the big take away, in my opinion, is that you must change your mentality, before anything happens positively.

Posted by Mav88 on 01-05-09 11:37 AM:

sandy,

I was trying to be somewhat helpful by being critical, however you are wrapped up in a self-defeating world view. Let me give you an example:

You say it’s rediclous that people should ask for 30k when they aren’t worth it, but that’s exactly what you got growing up, so why should my generation ask for anything less? Let me explain. In 1975 the minimum wage was $2.10. Now if you simply take that and multiply it by the yearly CPI (which we know is crap and inaccurate) you will find that if minimum wage simply stayed consistent with inflation, it should be approximately $8.83 in 2007. Of course it was $5.85 then. If you take the housing market as a different gauge of inflation you will see that the average home in 1975 was worth $35,300. In 2005 it was worth $214,000. This is just the latest stats I saw on a website. This represents a 606% increase. If you multiply that times $2.10, you will see that if minimum wage was indexed to housing, it should $12.73 in 2007.
Now your son makes $8 an hour. So taking the 2007 minimum wage, Wal-Mart valued him at 36% above minimum wage. So if minimum wage were indexed to the cpi, your son should actually be making $12.08 an hour. If it were to housing then he should actually be making $17.41 an hour. $17.41 times 40 hours a week, times 52 weeks a year = …………. $36,212 a year. FOR WORKING AT WAL- MART! If he had been making $12.08 then it would still be over $25,000 a year. So in affect somebody in 1975 doing the same thing did make 30K a year, not including benefits. So you’re calling me a lazy Communist who thinks he’s owed everything for simply wanting the same thing you had at my age. Still feel the same way?

BTW I love going to Wally World and I wish your son all the best. But don’t blame me if in a few years he comes to you and says he simply can’t get ahead no matter how hard he tries. It’s much harder for our generation.

My whole point was that you could increase your income by simply looking around at places like Wal mart. You can't see it becuase I don't think you want to.

I'm not a boomer, I'm an X'er. All the union jobs were long gone when I came of age and I had a baby boy and wife at age 20, so I don't need lecturing on how hard things can be. Never once did I think that the gov't should get me a job, and I was unemployed for several months in the early 90s.

Your analysis of wages is spurious, housing markets are not uniform for one thing....

They seem to fit in taking all of our other jobs. Why can’t they do our fighting as well, at half the price of course? Think of how much it will save the taxpayer.

Once again you miss the point and create your own strawman to support your belief system. My neighbor employed two teenagers out of high school to do drywall and roofing, they were paid quite well as I recall and he wanted to train them to handle jobsites on their own for something probably in the neighborhood of $20 an hour. They quit because the work was too hard.

The military is another opportunity that many americans simply will not take because of the nature of the work, and most people in the military are not shot at.

I'm done posting here Sandy but one more thing for thought for you: you said Also everything has worth to it.

That's not true, and worth is subjective. Just a few minutes reflection should prove it to yourself. That, along with your stubborn insistence that delivering pizzas ought to be ' a living' and refusal to adapt are killing your chances.

Posted by nutmeg on 01-05-09 01:10 PM:

but good God, every piece of advice that other posters gave, you responded with an excuse or reason why you couldn't do it.
------------------------

This is a very important point that is pervasive in our society.

People always find a problem with the solution.

Life is a progression of decisions and actions, they may be good or bad but true failure is the result of doing neither.

Posted by trendlover on 01-05-09 06:11 PM:

Sandy, here is what I see. You are angry that you can not have enough money with pizza delivery. You make good points that to work hard does not always mean you will make alot of money. So you stay angry because of that, and you dream of ways to change that (like your system for a business where the hard work will be rewarded) Ok, now your energy is going to how get revenge. So if you could make a system of business like you want, and get revenge, what do you need first? (MONEY)
So you know now that pizza is not making money for you, so you have to first think of a way to make money, then the money can go to the revenge business that you dream about. But first you have to make money.
It is like this. Pretend you own a house that worth $2.00. Then all around the house they build business, and that house in the future is not worth what you paid for it. You are angry. Someone comes to you and offer to you $2.00 for your house so they can have the land to build more business. If you take the offer, you will have no loss, and move. If you do not take the offer, then you stay in the house, and in the future the house will be worth less because now, no one wants to buy your house because it is surrounded by business. Even the business people do not want your house anymore because you said no in the past, so they make other plans. So because of your anger of unfair that business build all around you, and you focus on the unfair part and become angry and frustrated, you would not sell your house and go to something better. So yes it is unfair sometimes, but unfair things make you find a better place. But only if you stop being angry.

__________________
trendlover

Posted by mogar on 01-05-09 07:24 PM:

Have some coffee

Sandy, I have been following this thread for some time and the only common theme I can determine with regards to your position is that you want the world to fair. Hard fact is Sandy the world is not, I repeat, not fair. It does not even know you exist. It’s nothing personal on its part it just does not care that you or I or any of the other people on this thread exist. Regardless of what you think would be a better system, a more fair system, is irrelevant to the fact that you don’t live in that fantasy, you live in this reality.

It has always been my belief that a person’s happiness is directly correlated to how close his/her perceived reality is to objective reality. When these two diverge reality usually rears its head and slaps you up the side of your head. It’s natures way of telling us “Don’t do that it’s not going to work!” .

You believe that your system would be better on many levels, I get that. Your moaning about the system which is here and now is time and energy wasted. There are whole lists of things that are wrong with this system. At the top of my list is the fiat monetary policy. I can bitch and moan all I like about it but I must find a way to deal with it, mostly protect myself from it by using it to my advantage.

Deal with reality or reality will deal with you.

Posted by marketsurfer on 01-05-09 07:30 PM:

I have come to the obvious conclusion that 'sandydog' is a rouse.

a created entity with "issues" to stir up the elite crew for kicks or for more neofarious goals such as developing fodder for an article. book or project.

seriously, she can't be for real!

surf

Posted by mogar on 01-05-09 07:42 PM:

We can only hope

I hope your right marketsurfer. I have to say however I have actually met people who have these views face to face. After I stopped living in bars I met a lot fewer of them.

Posted by clacy on 01-05-09 08:07 PM:

Re: We can only hope

Quote from mogar:

I hope your right marketsurfer. I have to say however I have actually met people who have these views face to face. After I stopped living in bars I met a lot fewer of them.

You're right, that these types of people exist and are actually quite prevelent. In fact, there is a pretty large segment of the unemployed and those on public assistance that take the exact same view point.

They complain that there aren't enough jobs, yet we see illegals flocking here to work construction, landscaping, etc. All very difficult work, but you can earn a decent living from them.

The fact is in life, there is some unfairness. That will always be. Whether it's health, intellegence, appearance, etc, people are dealt different hands in life.

You have to make the most of what you have. Just based on the fact that Sandy is posting on ET and debating economics tells me that he/she is probably capable of much more than delivering pizza. Not that delivering pizza is a bad thing even, but if that's what you do, don't complain about it.

Sandy, think about this. If pizza delivery drivers suddenly unionized and demanded $35-45k/yr salaries, and pizza prices were now doubled or tripled, how many pizzas would you sell? I for one, would probably cut it out for the most part and I make a nice living (could still afford it) and I LOVE PIZZA.

If that happened, you would be out of a job within weeks.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-06-09 07:07 AM:

Quote from forextrades:
If you make so little money, I'm sure you could easily qualify for financial aid if you go to college. Become a nurse or something. In 2-years you'll be making at least 40k.

Delivering/making pizzas was never considered skilled labor.

Well I explained earlier that when I went to the local Community College 6 years ago, I only qualified for a one time scholarship, so I unless anything has changed, I don’t see how I would qualify for anything now. I haven’t talked to my parents about it, but they may be in a little better position to help me than before.

I never said pizza delivery was a skilled labor, I said it has it’s worth. The people who work at the DMV and a lot of other government jobs require little skills and they make ok money. I guess pizza just gave me the flexibility I was looking for.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-06-09 07:11 AM:

Quote from clacy:

Sanybestdog,

First let me say that I empathize with you to some degree. It can be very difficult and challenging to find whatever it is that you are best suited for in the workplace.

From reading your posts, you seem like a well intentioned guy, but I can assure you that ONLY YOU will be able to fix your situation and figure out how to get ahead in this world.

In my opinion, it sounds like sales isn't your thing (the insurance thing). Don't get down on yourself, as it's not for everyone. I'm in sales and it is extremely difficult and stressful. I've been lucky enough to make a good living through sales, but I hate it at times. With that said, regardless of what you're selling, if you didn't sell any insurance policies in 6 months, your probably not cut out for sales.

As you know delivering pizza, simply won't pay the bills if that's your primary income. That is a fine job for someone who is supplementing their income or a student, etc, but for most adults, that don't want to live in their parents basement their entire life, it won't get you ahead.

I think you clearly need to get enrolled in some sort of educational program to pick up some additional skills. Plumbing, electrical, construction contractors have the ability to earn a lot of money, so you may consider those. In fact, the sky is the limit, for those that possess those skills and have some good business savy. If you can market those skills and you're dependable, you can do very well in those arenas. It sounds however, that marketing isn't your strong suite though, as you seem to have a very hard time marketing yourself well enough to find jobs, other than pizza, etc.

As someone else pointed out, healthcare is another field that is growing (meaning jobs are being created everyday) and there are many positions within healthcare that pay well. Most of the positions that pay well, will require some additional training. I had a buddy that became a respiratory therapist, which paid fairly well and he didn't have to work that hard. Typically I think he worked 3 12-hour shifts/week and was paid full time (benny's etc). There are dozens of techincian jobs in varius areas of hospitals and healthc clinics.

Another option mentioned is the military. They will pay you and you receive training for post-military while your on the job. In fact, you don't even need to go full time with the mililtary as they need reservists as well.

Restaurant management is another option. Why don't you work your way up the chain? Please don't give any excuses, as I've seen if for my own eyes, that you can become a millionare, simply by working your ass off in the restaurant industry. My dad, was out of work after he quit his job in law enforcement due to a conflict with his superior. He had a family, bills to pay, no college degree, or any other training. But, he didn't sit around and complain, ask for handouts, etc. Instead, he started out as an assistant for a burger chain. Not exactly an impressive job is it? But he worked his ass off, and moved up very quickly, eventually managing 70 restaurants for a major chain. He started 20-some years ago and now he owns his own multi-million dollar restaurant and is in negotiations to buy a second. By the way, you don't have to be "wall street" talented to do that, but you do have to work hard. When I say work hard, as you probably know, to make it in that business, 70-80hr work weeks are the norm.

The point that I'm making (and others have made) is there is an almost unending list of ways for you to be successful, financially in the US. This truly is the "land of opportunity".

It's your job though, to go out and figure it out and do it. The goverment cannot and will not help you, regardless of what they promise, or how badly you pretend that the US could become a communist/socialist utopia.

Best of luck.

Thanks for the advice. First off pizza used to pay the bills, and a whole lot more. It is not what it used to be. I think a lot of attention has been placed in this thread on the simple fact that simply because I deliver pizza, and since that requires no skill, then my current situation is inevitably what I deserve. I think that it is my fault that I have not advanced my career in the ways that you guys mention, but so far only one person has answered why wages keep going down and down and the cost of living keeps going up and up. Did anybody read the article I posted? I am not the only one struggling. Although, you can jump on the first person who has a $300 car payment all you want, but the others seemed to be in similar situations as me.

5 years ago I was in a similar situation and a friend told me I could make good money deliverying pizza, just like what you guys are telling me to do in other fields. So reluctantly I took his advice and pizza has paid for tens of thousands of dollars in investments. Those obviously didn’t work out. But everybody in the fields you guys mentioned are probably dealing with the same issues I am. Stagnant or decreasing pay and higher cost of living. Inevitably you will probably tell them the same things, that they need to obtain more skills and training. Then the same process will start over again and we will never answer or fix the fundamental problems that I have outlined.

I see a lot of employment ads for medical techs and billing schools and training programs. It seems like there are so many that they seem like scams. Does anybody have any experience with these places? I have heard medical billing is a good field.

Like I said before, I am interested in programming. I’m taking a class and we’ll see if that leads to something

Well you can become a store manager where I’m at, but there is not advancement beyond that. If you want to become what your father has, you will need to either work with the corporate stores, or start your own restaurant or franchise. That’s easy to do if you have the money or financing. Yes it requires 70-80 hour weeks, which I have done plenty of times. I think you guys think I’ve worked 20 hours a week for 5 years and think everything is owed to me. You couldn’t be more wrong. It would take me all day to tell you about all the things I’ve worked so long for. Just because I’m broke right now and haven’t made it, doesn’t mean I’m lazy. I will keep trying until something works. Also I have never suggested that the government owes me any help. They are the last people I would ever go to. The government doesn’t fix problems, they cause them.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-06-09 07:28 AM:

Quote from clacy:
After reading the entire thread, I have to admit Sandy, that you sound extremely negative and depressed. I don't want to kick you when you're down, but you need a more positive, can-do attitude. I know that sounds a little corny (it does to me too), but good God, every piece of advice that other posters gave, you responded with an excuse or reason why you couldn't do it.

I think before anything changes for you, you are going to have to figure out a way to reverse that menatility. If you go through life with a "pitty party" attitude, and keep coming up with reasons why you can't get ahead, YOU WON'T GET AHEAD.

I really do hope that you take these past two post constructively, as I am not trying to be a dick. I just think that I've seen too many of my friends and others in your age range that have become successful, to believe that you cannot make it in this country.

It's all out there for you, but you'll never get any of it, with your current attitude.

That's the big take away, in my opinion, is that you must change your mentality, before anything happens positively.

Thank you. Yes I am down and out right now. I used to be very positive and had a great outlook on life. You should of seen me a few years ago when the insurance company I was with signed on to sell mortgages as well. I didn’t know what to do, so I just picked up the phonebook, started on the A’s, and started calling people and asked them if they needed a mortgage. I even got a few applications doing that. That takes guts to do that. But it’s really hard to stay positive when time and time again I put my all into something and then see it fail miserably and I can’t understand why. I know very few young people like me that have ever tried half the things I have. So it’s also difficult when there is no one else to relate to. Thanks for the advice. I am stopping my trading until I can get an automated system, so I'm going to use the time in the morning to get out there and see what I can find. It’s a New Year and the holidays are over, so we’ll see what is out there now.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-06-09 07:40 AM:

Quote from trendlover:

Sandy, here is what I see. You are angry that you can not have enough money with pizza delivery. You make good points that to work hard does not always mean you will make alot of money. So you stay angry because of that, and you dream of ways to change that (like your system for a business where the hard work will be rewarded) Ok, now your energy is going to how get revenge. So if you could make a system of business like you want, and get revenge, what do you need first? (MONEY)
So you know now that pizza is not making money for you, so you have to first think of a way to make money, then the money can go to the revenge business that you dream about. But first you have to make money.
It is like this. Pretend you own a house that worth $2.00. Then all around the house they build business, and that house in the future is not worth what you paid for it. You are angry. Someone comes to you and offer to you $2.00 for your house so they can have the land to build more business. If you take the offer, you will have no loss, and move. If you do not take the offer, then you stay in the house, and in the future the house will be worth less because now, no one wants to buy your house because it is surrounded by business. Even the business people do not want your house anymore because you said no in the past, so they make other plans. So because of your anger of unfair that business build all around you, and you focus on the unfair part and become angry and frustrated, you would not sell your house and go to something better. So yes it is unfair sometimes, but unfair things make you find a better place. But only if you stop being angry.

You make a very good analogy. I don’t think I’m angry per se. I think there may be some truth to the revenge part. But it’s not so much about revenge, but I believe these franchise owners have become so wrapped up in their greed that I believe that it will soon become their weakest point. My goal is to exploit it for all I can get for me and others who want to come along for the ride. I think my frustration comes about when I keep trying and can’t seem to make any progress.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-06-09 07:41 AM:

Quote from marketsurfer:

I have come to the obvious conclusion that 'sandydog' is a rouse.

a created entity with "issues" to stir up the elite crew for kicks or for more neofarious goals such as developing fodder for an article. book or project.

seriously, she can't be for real!

surf

You are seriously messed up if you think I made this whole thing up to get a reaction. I am real. My name is Stefan. I live in Maryland. Sandy is my dog, hence Sandybestdog

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-06-09 07:45 AM:

Re: We can only hope

Quote from mogar:
I hope your right marketsurfer. I have to say however I have actually met people who have these views face to face. After I stopped living in bars I met a lot fewer of them.

Quote from mogar:
When I was a teenager back in the late 60 early 70’s a welder at any old shop could own and pay for a house, have a wife and kids and he could make it. Also I was earning about 6 to 7% on a savings account.

Today you need two good paychecks to make it. Savings accounts pay less then 1% today. It is no surprise to me that people don’t save because it’s a suckers bet today. You don’t get paid any thing if you do it. You are probably better off just sticking it in a safe somewhere then putting it in a savings instrument; at least you will get your money back. The inflation figures reported by the government don’t even pass the laugh test. They only apply to you if you live in an abandoned auto in a Kmart parking lot and you are on food stamps.

So if you save it and can manage to make say 3% real inflation will eat more then that and to add insult to injury the IRS will tax you on it.

Is it really any surprise that we don’t save when the entire system is geared to push people to burrow? The purchasing power of the currency is always going down. The rates paid to savers have all but vanished. I have savings but I view any dollars I have as a wasting asset and I am always on the lookout for hard assets to convert my savings out of the little green coupons.

You pretty much made the same points I’ve been making. Why the sudden change in heart?

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-06-09 07:49 AM:

Re: Re: We can only hope

Quote from clacy:
Sanybestdog,

First let me say that I empathize with you to some degree. It can be very difficult and challenging to find whatever it is that you are best suited for in the workplace.

From reading your posts, you seem like a well intentioned guy, but I can assure you that ONLY YOU will be able to fix your situation and figure out how to get ahead in this world.
…………….
As you know delivering pizza, simply won't pay the bills if that's your primary income. That is a fine job for someone who is supplementing their income or a student, etc, but for most adults, that don't want to live in their parents basement their entire life, it won't get you ahead.
…………………
When I say work hard, as you probably know, to make it in that business, 70-80hr work weeks are the norm.
…….
Best of luck.

Quote from clacy:
You're right, that these types of people exist and are actually quite prevelent. In fact, there is a pretty large segment of the unemployed and those on public assistance that take the exact same view point.

They complain that there aren't enough jobs, yet we see illegals flocking here to work construction, landscaping, etc. All very difficult work, but you can earn a decent living from them.

The fact is in life, there is some unfairness. That will always be. Whether it's health, intellegence, appearance, etc, people are dealt different hands in life.

You have to make the most of what you have. Just based on the fact that Sandy is posting on ET and debating economics tells me that he/she is probably capable of much more than delivering pizza. Not that delivering pizza is a bad thing even, but if that's what you do, don't complain about it.

Sandy, think about this. If pizza delivery drivers suddenly unionized and demanded $35-45k/yr salaries, and pizza prices were now doubled or tripled, how many pizzas would you sell? I for one, would probably cut it out for the most part and I make a nice living (could still afford it) and I LOVE PIZZA.

If that happened, you would be out of a job within weeks.

Your attitude sure changed quick. I am neither on public assistance nor unemployed.

You obviously didn’t give much thought to your statement that if pizza drivers made 45k a year the pizza would triple in price. You want to take another shot at that? I already answered this in another thread. Here is the link. It’s just my opinion.

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...931#post2168931

And I believe this dismisses your assessment that higher wages would lead to higher prices, which would lead to unemployment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimu...ard_and_Krueger

Posted by clacy on 01-06-09 07:03 PM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Well you can become a store manager where I’m at, but there is not advancement beyond that. If you want to become what your father has, you will need to either work with the corporate stores, or start your own restaurant or franchise. That’s easy to do if you have the money or financing.

This is the attitude problem that is keeping you from moving up. My father didn't have any money at your age. The point is that sometimes you have to pay your dues. He kept plugging away, though and was lucky enough to save enough cash for the money that he needed down to get financing, in his mid 50's.

And yes, to move up, you'll probably need to go the corporate route. That is what a lot of people do and despite all the negativity of the "corporate world", it certainly has helped many people move up in life.

I work in a corporate environment, and despite the fact that I get frustrated with it quite frequently, I also know that it has given me a very good living.

I won't respond any longer to this thread, because some people are just born to complain and be miserable. I hope that you can reverse that mentality in the future.

Posted by trendlover on 01-06-09 08:02 PM:

[QUOTE]Quote from Sandybestdog:

I see a lot of employment ads for medical techs and billing schools and training programs. It seems like there are so many that they seem like scams. Does anybody have any experience with these places? I have heard medical billing is a good field.

High demand for coders Stephen. Maybe links will help

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos103.htm

http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/home.htm

__________________
trendlover

Posted by mogar on 01-08-09 06:34 AM:

SandyBestDog, I did not have a change of heart. I did post the following in response to the central question of why Americans do not save.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I was a teenager back in the late 60 early 70’s a welder at any old shop could own and pay for a house, have a wife and kids and he could make it. Also I was earning about 6 to 7% on a savings account.

Today you need two good paychecks to make it. Savings accounts pay less then 1% today. It is no surprise to me that people don’t save because it’s a suckers bet today. You don’t get paid any thing if you do it. You are probably better off just sticking it in a safe somewhere then putting it in a savings instrument; at least you will get your money back. The inflation figures reported by the government don’t even pass the laugh test. They only apply to you if you live in an abandoned auto in a Kmart parking lot and you are on food stamps.

So if you save it and can manage to make say 3% real inflation will eat more then that and to add insult to injury the IRS will tax you on it.

Is it really any surprise that we don’t save when the entire system is geared to push people to burrow? The purchasing power of the currency is always going down. The rates paid to savers have all but vanished. I have savings but I view any dollars I have as a wasting asset and I am always on the lookout for hard assets to convert my savings out of the little green coupons.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However that does not mean that I can just hope and pray that things change and become more favorable for me. I have to work inside the reality I find myself in so I posted the following as I looked at more and more of your postings.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sandy, I have been following this thread for some time and the only common theme I can determine with regards to your position is that you want the world to fair. Hard fact is Sandy the world is not, I repeat, not fair. It does not even know you exist. It’s nothing personal on its part it just does not care that you or I or any of the other people on this thread exist. Regardless of what you think would be a better system, a more fair system, is irrelevant to the fact that you don’t live in that fantasy, you live in this reality.

It has always been my belief that a person’s happiness is directly correlated to how close his/her perceived reality is to objective reality. When these two diverge reality usually rears its head and slaps you up the side of your head. It’s natures way of telling us “Don’t do that it’s not going to work!” .

You believe that your system would be better on many levels, I get that. Your moaning about the system which is here and now is time and energy wasted. There are whole lists of things that are wrong with this system. At the top of my list is the fiat monetary policy. I can bitch and moan all I like about it but I must find a way to deal with it, mostly protect myself from it by using it to my advantage.

Deal with reality or reality will deal with you.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem you are dealing with is a messed up monetary policy, which is what is ultimately at the heart of the problem. You are not going to change that with some new cool business model where workers get more of this or that. I think first you have to acknowledge what the market wants from you as an employee and before you go investing a lot of time and money determine if you will recoup the cost and come out ahead.

I started out as a chemist, had a degree that I sent myself thru college to get. I worked at that field for 15 years. It was not till I had been in the field for 10 years before I put some room between me and the tax monster that eats away at every raise you get. After 15 years I was let go because of a reduction in force after a merger. I got 4000.00 in a lump sum from my retirement. Being nowhere near retirement I went into computers after I completed a 6 month crash course which gave me the skills to get my foot in the door. I took a 25 % cut in pay took about 5 years to get back to the income I had been making.
After a while I went into consulting because if there was one thing I had learned there is no security anywhere including a salaried position at a company. After 18 years I am in my mid 50’s and in between contracts, the economy is in the toilet, and contracts will be few and far between. I am not the least bit afraid of this situation because as long as I keep my eye on what is actually going on (reality) I’m going to come thru it some damn way.

The point I am trying to make here is yea I know it’s hard out there. It’s been hard at other time too. The issues you are dealing with have been here for almost 40 years they are just becoming more acute which is the nature of the beast.

I think in one of your posts I saw you were interested in programming. There is something you should consider however, all these jobs can be done overseas cheaper.
One of the reasons I am moving on to something else.
If I were a young man today I would go into the trades, a skill like carpentry or plaster work can never be taken away or off shored and will always have a market. You also have the chance to have your own business when working in the trades.

I apologize if I offended with the bar people post but some of your posts suggest someone who is hopelessly dreaming. Bars are where I met most of the dreamers, that’s where I left them too. I bet they are still there. I wish you all the best and good luck.

Posted by forextrades on 01-08-09 08:27 AM:

Skilled trades are definitely the way to go IMO. I just turned 24 and have a BS in Construction Management. However, I started out working as a helper for a mechanical (HVAC) contractor and moved up from there.

You mentioned that many construction jobs in your area are filled by illegals. Perhaps you are looking into the wrong trade. HVAC, electrical, or plumbing requires a brain. Most illegals don't have the skills necessary to become licensed or attend a trade school/community college. Many of them stick to drywall, roofing, or painting.

There are simply too many kids in college seeking a high paying desk job in front of a computer. Those days are over as the job market is saturated with them. They don't want to do any heavy lifting so they opt for something easy. This obviously raises the pay-scale and demand for skilled labor and diminishes the value of a BBA. With parents constantly pressuring their kids to go to college, I don't expect this to change anytime soon. College is the new high school.

If you do want to get into programming, I suggest you get into the network security or computer forensics side. Those jobs obviously can't be outsourced for security reasons. There are plenty of fully (regionally) accredited online colleges and universities that offer this type of degree.

__________________
"Mom, this is Mark Bingham."

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-09-09 05:17 AM:

Quote from clacy:
This is the attitude problem that is keeping you from moving up. My father didn't have any money at your age. The point is that sometimes you have to pay your dues. He kept plugging away, though and was lucky enough to save enough cash for the money that he needed down to get financing, in his mid 50's.

This is exactly what I’ve been doing and saying that I’ve done, you just don’t want to hear it. I chose to start other non restaurant business’s instead. Unfortunately they didn’t work out. That’s the way it goes. You don’t think doing this day in and day out 60+ hours a week is paying your dues? I’m on my 3rd car doing this. Just because someone doesn’t succeed in doing something, doesn’t mean they didn’t work their butt off trying to get something. Failure happens, fine I’ll move on and keep trying until I get somewhere.

I would say that at a bare minimum a restaurant requires at least 100k to start. An oven alone costs 40k. Not to mention you actually have to have a good product to sell. Financing will be required.

Quote from clacy:
And yes, to move up, you'll probably need to go the corporate route. That is what a lot of people do and despite all the negativity of the "corporate world", it certainly has helped many people move up in life.

I work in a corporate environment, and despite the fact that I get frustrated with it quite frequently, I also know that it has given me a very good living.

I won't respond any longer to this thread, because some people are just born to complain and be miserable. I hope that you can reverse that mentality in the future.

I think there are some opportunities to advance in a corporate restaurant system. But most of them are selling out to the franchises. They don’t want to be in the management business anymore. They just keep the name going and come up with the new products and marketing and collect a percentage of the sales from the franchises.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-09-09 05:19 AM:

Quote from trendlover:

[QUOTE]Quote from Sandybestdog:

I see a lot of employment ads for medical techs and billing schools and training programs. It seems like there are so many that they seem like scams. Does anybody have any experience with these places? I have heard medical billing is a good field.

High demand for coders Stephen. Maybe links will help

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos103.htm

http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/home.htm

Thanks I appreciate that.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-09-09 05:22 AM:

Quote from mogar:
SandyBestDog, I did not have a change of heart. I did post the following in response to the central question of why Americans do not save.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However that does not mean that I can just hope and pray that things change and become more favorable for me. I have to work inside the reality I find myself in so I posted the following as I looked at more and more of your postings.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem you are dealing with is a messed up monetary policy, which is what is ultimately at the heart of the problem. You are not going to change that with some new cool business model where workers get more of this or that. I think first you have to acknowledge what the market wants from you as an employee and before you go investing a lot of time and money determine if you will recoup the cost and come out ahead.

I started out as a chemist, had a degree that I sent myself thru college to get. I worked at that field for 15 years. It was not till I had been in the field for 10 years before I put some room between me and the tax monster that eats away at every raise you get. After 15 years I was let go because of a reduction in force after a merger. I got 4000.00 in a lump sum from my retirement. Being nowhere near retirement I went into computers after I completed a 6 month crash course which gave me the skills to get my foot in the door. I took a 25 % cut in pay took about 5 years to get back to the income I had been making.
After a while I went into consulting because if there was one thing I had learned there is no security anywhere including a salaried position at a company. After 18 years I am in my mid 50’s and in between contracts, the economy is in the toilet, and contracts will be few and far between. I am not the least bit afraid of this situation because as long as I keep my eye on what is actually going on (reality) I’m going to come thru it some damn way.

The point I am trying to make here is yea I know it’s hard out there. It’s been hard at other time too. The issues you are dealing with have been here for almost 40 years they are just becoming more acute which is the nature of the beast.

I think in one of your posts I saw you were interested in programming. There is something you should consider however, all these jobs can be done overseas cheaper.
One of the reasons I am moving on to something else.
If I were a young man today I would go into the trades, a skill like carpentry or plaster work can never be taken away or off shored and will always have a market. You also have the chance to have your own business when working in the trades.

I apologize if I offended with the bar people post but some of your posts suggest someone who is hopelessly dreaming. Bars are where I met most of the dreamers, that’s where I left them too. I bet they are still there. I wish you all the best and good luck.

Thank you for this. You are right, it is our monetary policy that is messed up. I contend that the creation of the Federal Reserve and Nixon taking us off of the gold standard is the single greatest theft in human history. There is little I can do about this, so of course the only way to hedge and profit against is by buying assets. But the only way to do that is to make a lot more than I spend, which is obviously not what I’m doing now. So I need to fix this.

It certainly seems you worked hard in your life. My dad was a carpenter for about 25 years. About 10 years ago he went back to school and now works in computers, but still keeps his work van and does some side jobs in his spare time. He has great clients and does good work. When he made the transition, he asked my brother and I if we had any desire to take over the business (we were in high school), which we resoundingly said no. We don’t have any problem with hard work, that just didn’t seem to interest us. We saw how it dragged on him for so many years and now how he loves his new job. But he was paid on just the work he did. There was little opportunity to ever expand the business. I want something that can be expanded on.

And I don’t know what bars are like, I don’t drink and have never seen what good could about from going to a bar. I don’t need to drink my problems away, just fix them.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-09-09 05:39 AM:

Quote from forextrades:
Skilled trades are definitely the way to go IMO. I just turned 24 and have a BS in Construction Management. However, I started out working as a helper for a mechanical (HVAC) contractor and moved up from there.

You mentioned that many construction jobs in your area are filled by illegals. Perhaps you are looking into the wrong trade. HVAC, electrical, or plumbing requires a brain. Most illegals don't have the skills necessary to become licensed or attend a trade school/community college. Many of them stick to drywall, roofing, or painting.

There are simply too many kids in college seeking a high paying desk job in front of a computer. Those days are over as the job market is saturated with them. They don't want to do any heavy lifting so they opt for something easy. This obviously raises the pay-scale and demand for skilled labor and diminishes the value of a BBA. With parents constantly pressuring their kids to go to college, I don't expect this to change anytime soon. College is the new high school.

If you do want to get into programming, I suggest you get into the network security or computer forensics side. Those jobs obviously can't be outsourced for security reasons. There are plenty of fully (regionally) accredited online colleges and universities that offer this type of degree.

Isn’t it sad now that we now have to decide on a career not by what we like or may be good at, but what jobs can’t be outsourced? That’s really sad. Pizza delivery can’t be outsourced! I think you underestimate a little what illegals can do. Also it’s not just illegals that tighten the job market, but most immigrants. I’m not against legal immigration and I don’t want to get into a discussion about that, but it hurts the workers already here when new people come here and do what they’re doing for less. Insourcing immigrants to do jobs for less is not a free market, that’s manipulating the market. So we’re just going to have to work harder to get ahead and learn how to use the system.

Also I don’t know about young people not wanting to do heavy lifting. Almost everybody under 30 I know all work in restaurants. Not pizza places, all kinds of restaurants. They do this because it’s the only way nowadays to get decent money anytime soon. Actually it has taught me that money is made not in hitting the jackpot, but in getting a few dollars from several people. The restaurants don’t end up paying them that much. They just get a few dollars from each customer. My brother was a realtor and we all know what happened there, now he is a bartender.

Posted by karol88 on 01-09-09 06:54 AM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Isnï¿½t it sad now that we now have to decide on a career not by what we like or may be good at, but what jobs canï¿½t be outsourced? Thatï¿½s really sad. Pizza delivery canï¿½t be outsourced! I think you underestimate a little what illegals can do. Also itï¿½s not just illegals that tighten the job market, but most immigrants. Iï¿½m not against legal immigration and I donï¿½t want to get into a discussion about that, but it hurts the workers already here when new people come here and do what theyï¿½re doing for less. Insourcing immigrants to do jobs for less is not a free market, thatï¿½s manipulating the market. So weï¿½re just going to have to work harder to get ahead and learn how to use the system.

Also I donï¿½t know about young people not wanting to do heavy lifting. Almost everybody under 30 I know all work in restaurants. Not pizza places, all kinds of restaurants. They do this because itï¿½s the only way nowadays to get decent money anytime soon. Actually it has taught me that money is made not in hitting the jackpot, but in getting a few dollars from several people. The restaurants donï¿½t end up paying them that much. They just get a few dollars from each customer. My brother was a realtor and we all know what happened there, now he is a bartender.

sure, sad, but it's a vicious cycle: the immigrants take away your job, yet you're happy that some things or services cost less (walmart etc)....right?
It's a trade off. Look at Europe:
many countries still have little or no immigrants, China imports are limited to 10-15% of all imported goods, pretty much no outsourcing.
what you get is:
lower wages while the cost of many goods (electronics/clothes for example) and services is higher than here.
The sad truth is that without the immigrants and outsourcing we wouldn't have the 'illusion of wealth' in the US (until recently at least)...illusion, because most of the junk we buy isn't worth much anyway.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-10-09 08:00 PM:

Quote from karol88:
sure, sad, but it's a vicious cycle: the immigrants take away your job, yet you're happy that some things or services cost less (walmart etc)....right?It's a trade off.
Look at Europe:
many countries still have little or no immigrants, China imports are limited to 10-15% of all imported goods, pretty much no outsourcing.
what you get is:
lower wages while the cost of many goods (electronics/clothes for example) and services is higher than here.
The sad truth is that without the immigrants and outsourcing we wouldn't have the 'illusion of wealth' in the US (until recently at least)...illusion, because most of the junk we buy isn't worth much anyway.

Ok I’ll admit I like Wal-Mart. If I want to buy something and don’t know where the cheapest place to go will be, I just go there. Usually the best place is eBay or Amazon, but somethings can’t be bought online. But are Wal-Mart’s prices low simply because they import so much from China and pay their employees crap? I’ve never seen an employment ad for Wal-Mart, which would seem to suggest that at least for now, their employees are satisfied.

But we forget one thing. Sure Wal-Mart imports a lot from China, but why are their prices still the best on things that are made here? Most of the food and milk and prescriptions and things like that are made in the US. But Wal-Mart’s prices are still the best. I would venture to say that it’s because of their volume. They are able to negotiate the best prices because they sell so much. Also they are able to simply manufacture under their own brand.

Also compare Wal-Mart’s wages to that of its competitors. Does the grocery store across the street that is more expensive pay their employees any more than Wal-Mart? I doubt it. I’ll give you an example. A few years ago in high school I worked at the local union grocery store. On Sundays we got time and a half. I just met someone the other day that worked there and they said they only get $1 more on Sundays now. Have their prices come down to reflect this? I doubt it. That chain of grocery stores still has many old timers from the good ole’ union days who get $20 an hour plus benefits and pensions to stock shelves. They are gradually being replaced by new younger workers under new union contracts, that won’t even be paid anywhere close to that even at today’s grossly devalued dollar. When the labor force is recycled like this, do you think they’ll drop their prices? I didn’t think so.

On your other note, I think last year was a big wake up call. Is there anybody here that listens to Bob Brinker’s Money Talk? It’s on on the weekend’s and for the past 5 years I’ve had to listen to him talk about his brilliant “major buy recommendation on March 11th of 2003 and the unprecedented level of growth we’ve seen since then.” I got so sick of yelling at the radio that I don’t really listen anymore. The entire so called boom between 2002 and 2007, we’ve come to learn was completely fueled through, deficit spending, a weak dollar, inflation, oversea’s profits, a fake housing boom, increased commodity prices, and war spending. Also the unemployment rate doesn’t take into account all the people that are underemployed. So yes we have come to learn that our wealth is not really wealth at all.

Posted by Renegen on 01-10-09 08:35 PM:

Sandy, Wal Mart doesn't advertise employment because there are enough unemployed to always apply to them. Look at the millions of labor infractions Wal Mart has been doing to figure out that their employees are in fact pretty unhappy.

Also Costco actually pays more than minimum wage and many workers there are happier.

Wal Mart isn't even that cheap, it's just marketing. They force you to buy $200 worth of stuff every time, you can't walk out of a Wal Mart with $20 worth of stuff. They always overprice some items. They also usually undercut their nearest store by just a few cents to give the illusion of being cheap. And of course they're killed many small businesses and support outsourcing as much as possible because of their presence. Also good luck trying to get a union going in a Wal Mart, they'll fire all of you. Don't ever shop there.

Posted by clacy on 01-10-09 08:45 PM:

sandybestdog,

It's very obvious that you will find an excuse or reason to fail for all possible suggestions, so it's pretty pointless continuing this thread, in regards to you. Keep on doing what you're doing, as it sounds like you've got it figured out better than any of us.

Best of luck.

Posted by Tigerjaw on 01-10-09 10:48 PM:

Maybe they thought they were saving . . . 'cause their homes kept 'going up in value', to the point that they could even take out a little of the 'built up equity' for home improvements and other doodads. Maybe they thought they were saving when the stocks in their 401ks kept going up steadily as a good 'long term investment' should. Maybe they watched a few too many b.s. ads on t.v. touting what they could buy in the malls and online to enjoy and display that they were living 'the good life'. Maybe they believed (awhile ago) in that 'New Paradigm' talk, and that the markets will only go up. Maybe they went out and showed their patriotism after 9/11 just like the Prez said - - by going out and shopping. Hmmmm - - - maybe they forgot all the stuff their First Depression grandparents said about saving and living within your means. Not nearly as fun as living off money borrowed from foreigners. - - -

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-11-09 05:47 AM:

Quote from Renegen:
Sandy, Wal Mart doesn't advertise employment because there are enough unemployed to always apply to them. Look at the millions of labor infractions Wal Mart has been doing to figure out that their employees are in fact pretty unhappy.

Also Costco actually pays more than minimum wage and many workers there are happier.

Wal Mart isn't even that cheap, it's just marketing. They force you to buy $200 worth of stuff every time, you can't walk out of a Wal Mart with $20 worth of stuff. They always overprice some items. They also usually undercut their nearest store by just a few cents to give the illusion of being cheap. And of course they're killed many small businesses and support outsourcing as much as possible because of their presence. Also good luck trying to get a union going in a Wal Mart, they'll fire all of you. Don't ever shop there.

Well I’m sure Wal-Mart takes advantage of the tight labor market, just like a lot of other employers.

Good point about Costco. I’ve heard that’s a decent place to work, yet they still offer very low prices to their customers.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-11-09 05:49 AM:

Quote from clacy:
sandybestdog,

It's very obvious that you will find an excuse or reason to fail for all possible suggestions, so it's pretty pointless continuing this thread, in regards to you. Keep on doing what you're doing, as it sounds like you've got it figured out better than any of us.

Best of luck.

The title of this thread is “why don’t American’s save?” After 26 pages, just about the only thing we’ve established is that I’m a lazy Communist who wants everything given to me. I’m trying to talk about my and others issues on why we aren’t saving. I used to save a $1000 a month. Not anymore.

Like for instance I heard the other day from a Congressman that the average Americans income has fallen $!000 in the past 8 years, meanwhile their cost of living has gone up $5000. But nobody wants to talk about this and how to fix it, we’re going to talk about the big screen tv’s people bought. Let me know when everybody wants to talk about issues.

Posted by forextrades on 01-11-09 06:03 AM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

The title of this thread is “why don’t American’s save?” After 26 pages, just about the only thing we’ve established is that I’m a lazy Communist who wants everything given to me. I’m trying to talk about my and others issues on why we aren’t saving. I used to save a $1000 a month. Not anymore.

Like for instance I heard the other day from a Congressman that the average Americans income has fallen $!000 in the past 8 years, meanwhile their cost of living has gone up $5000. But nobody wants to talk about this and how to fix it, we’re going to talk about the big screen tv’s people bought. Let me know when everybody wants to talk about issues.

That is a serious issue and there is no simple solution. The citizens of this country would have to stand up and say "enough's enough", but they're too afraid of losing their shitty jobs, their houses, their cars, and their big screen TV's.

I believe something big is going to happen soon. It's inevitable. The United States is past its expiration date.

If you feel so strongly about it, I suggest you do the following: Go buy a yourself a gun and put a bullet in the heads of the globalist assholes who created the problem.

Two hundred years ago, it would have only took a private militia armed with rifles and pitchforks to overthrow a government or execute a crooked political leader. Too bad those days are over.

__________________
"Mom, this is Mark Bingham."

Posted by seriousNews on 01-11-09 03:11 PM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Thank you for the kind thoughts. You guys have certainly showed much more understanding than others here. I don’t want sympathy though. Yes I am very discouraged. I feel like I’ve tried everything and have lost at it all. I don’t blame anybody, but it is very difficult because literally nobody I know has any ambition. Nobody wants to change the world like me. Nobody wants to make lots of money and stick it to the man. Nobody wants to start a business. Nobody I know knows the what the bid – ask spread is. I’m trying to build an automated system now with Visual Basic. It’s like learning a whole new language. Nobody I know knows anything about programming. I search on the internet, but sometimes you just want someone to bounce ideas off of. The local community college has some intro classes which I might take. I feel like I’m swimming upstream by myself. I don’t know what’s wrong with people nowadays. It’s like they don’t want to get ahead.

your problem is that

you are too f_king naive

what makes you think honesty pays off

and don't go learning Visual Basic, it's just bullsh-t, learn C# or Java

Posted by seriousNews on 01-11-09 03:17 PM:

Quote from clacy:

sandybestdog,

It's very obvious that you will find an excuse or reason to fail for all possible suggestions, so it's pretty pointless continuing this thread, in regards to you. Keep on doing what you're doing, as it sounds like you've got it figured out better than any of us.

Best of luck.

he has some things figured out, his problem is he hasn't learnt to be a hypocrite like most of us

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-11-09 08:02 PM:

Quote from seriousNews:
your problem is that

you are too f_king naive

what makes you think honesty pays off

and don't go learning Visual Basic, it's just bullsh-t, learn C# or Java

So you mean bad people win and good people lose? Suddenly everything is starting to make sense.

Posted by karol88 on 01-11-09 09:06 PM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

So you mean bad people win and good people lose? Suddenly everything is starting to make sense.

Sandythebestdog, if I get it right your concern is that you can't save $500-1000 like you used to, right?
The wealth in America in the past few years was extremely inflated.
I see a very young working class couple with kids owning a 5000sf mansion here....the same couple in Germany or France for example would struggle with employment, rent a tiny apartment, and hope their parents or the government would help them when in need.

Both scenarios are extreme. Take the middle, we can't be all rich.

If I pizza delivery allows you to save $500-1000 a month (unless it's in a super location), then what about the average office worker? How much should he be able to save? 2-3 times as much? This is not normal.
take a wealthy country as an example: Switzerland (it's been wealthy for a while now...low unemployment, very high average wages etc), look at the home ownership % compared to the US....most people rent. homes are reserved for the upper middle class and up....OR older residents.

This is just an example...
Under normal economic circumstances the pizza delivery job should barely cover your daily expenses. This is a job for a student who wants to make some extra money, for a young person just starting out, or for an unskilled worker....not a job that will allow you to get rich.

Posted by 4444CJones4444 on 01-11-09 09:25 PM:

Quote from operator:

people are always trying to keep up with the jones...instead of living within their means....

When are they going to learn?

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-12-09 09:24 PM:

Quote from karol88:
Sandythebestdog, if I get it right your concern is that you can't save $500-1000 like you used to, right?
The wealth in America in the past few years was extremely inflated.
I see a very young working class couple with kids owning a 5000sf mansion here....the same couple in Germany or France for example would struggle with employment, rent a tiny apartment, and hope their parents or the government would help them when in need.

Both scenarios are extreme. Take the middle, we can't be all rich.

If I pizza delivery allows you to save $500-1000 a month (unless it's in a super location), then what about the average office worker? How much should he be able to save? 2-3 times as much? This is not normal.
take a wealthy country as an example: Switzerland (it's been wealthy for a while now...low unemployment, very high average wages etc), look at the home ownership % compared to the US....most people rent. homes are reserved for the upper middle class and up....OR older residents.

This is just an example...
Under normal economic circumstances the pizza delivery job should barely cover your daily expenses. This is a job for a student who wants to make some extra money, for a young person just starting out, or for an unskilled worker....not a job that will allow you to get rich.

You got it. I can’t save like I used to.

I can’t comment on people in Europe, I don’t know anything about the way things are there other than they seem to have a lot higher taxes and a lot of social programs.

You’re right, if I was able to save X $’s, then a higher level job should be able to save a lot more. I don’t see why this shouldn’t be the case. You have to also take into account that I don’t really care about a lot of the things others do. I have a higher goal and am willing to sacrifice the time and money now to achieve it later. I still live with my parents, so that I don’t have that extra burden. Many my age are realizing that is the only way they will ever have a shot at anything. It’s not uncommon now for kids to live at home into their 20’s. My sister just moved back, she’s 22. We can’t afford a $1000 apartment. I have bought 3 cars. The most expensive was $5000. The car I have now has 226k miles. I hardly buy new clothes and pretty much watch every dollar I spend. So maybe that is why I used to be able to save a lot. I’m not cheap, I just see the bigger picture. My one nemisis is obviously trading, and once every 2 years I buy a nice cell phone.

I have never ever said that I should get rich deliverying pizza. That would never work. I think many here are not getting this point. What I have asked is why did such an unskilled job used to provide so much, but now is barely providing minimum wage. Nobody seems to want to answer this. I will never get rich deliverying pizza, but I can get rich taking the money I can save from pizza and investing that and starting new businesses with that. But I can’t do that if I’m barely able to pay my bills and the cost of living never seems to stop going up.

What I have never figured out is why there is this notion that if you don’t have a skilled job, then you pretty much deserve to make so little money that you’ll inevitably live in poverty. Where does this thinking originate from? Is it a new economic theory or is it market based economics?

I went to the wisest source I could find to see what could be said about work and labor. I really don’t like religion, but I figured the Bible was a good source to look to. I was unable to find any verses that said those who work hard, but at an unskilled job, deserve poverty. Instead I found this.

2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

Proverbs 12:11
He who works his land will have abundant food, but he who chases fantasies lacks judgment.

Proverbs 14:23
All hard work brings a profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty.

Romans 13:7
Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

I Corinthians 9:7-11
Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk? Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn't the Law say the same thing? For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned? Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?

James 5:4
Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty.

These seem to suggest that labor should be rewarded accordingly. I never saw a verse that said somebody should work and not be paid his worth, or that only skilled workers deserve to eat. The overriding theme seems to be an honest days work should be granted an honest days pay. I’m not a Bible expert, so feel free to disagree, I know most of you will.

So here is a list of as many jobs that I can think of that are doomed to poverty if we continue with this notion that only skilled work should be justly compensated. I know I’m going to take a lot of heat for this post, and frankly I don’t care. Somebody has to say it.

Pizza delivery drivers, janitors, taxi drivers, cashiers, cooks at fast food restaurants, host and hostesses, waiters, bar tenders, receptionists, maids, lawn care people, bell boy’s, school bus drivers, mailmen, postal workers, DMV workers, grocery store stocking clerks, couriers, trash collectors, prostitutes, hotel roomservice workers, newspaper delivery persons, UPS drivers, parking attendants, probably most low end government jobs and pretty much most retail jobs.

Posted by harkm on 01-12-09 09:38 PM:

What I have never figured out is why there is this notion that if you don’t have a skilled job, then you pretty much deserve to make so little money that you’ll inevitably live in poverty. Where does this thinking originate from? Is it a new economic theory or is it market based economics?

Sandybestdog, you know the answer to this. Why are you basically writing a doctoral thesis when, deep down, you know the answer? Just in case you don't, which i am pretty sure you do, jobs that require no skill or experience are reserved for students and young people who compete over those jobs and don't require much pay. If you want more money, learn a skill that young, inexperienced, college students can't get and you will do fine. Now, I am sure, you will write 500 words on some vague topic.

Posted by matgallis on 01-13-09 03:23 PM:

our "tax" package is quite high. It's just given a bunch of different names, like property taxes, sales tax, social security, medi-care, gasoline taxes, state income taxes, capital gains tax, etc etc. We're even taxed monthly on our cell phones for "environmental fees"

For most that doesn't include retirement costs and their own medical insurance so freecash flow for most Americans is close to zero.

__________________
Theupdown - Paid stock market simulator

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-13-09 04:21 PM:

Quote from harkm:What I have never figured out is why there is this notion that if you don’t have a skilled job, then you pretty much deserve to make so little money that you’ll inevitably live in poverty. Where does this thinking originate from? Is it a new economic theory or is it market based economics?

Sandybestdog, you know the answer to this. Why are you basically writing a doctoral thesis when, deep down, you know the answer? Just in case you don't, which i am pretty sure you do, jobs that require no skill or experience are reserved for students and young people who compete over those jobs and don't require much pay. If you want more money, learn a skill that young, inexperienced, college students can't get and you will do fine. Now, I am sure, you will write 500 words on some vague topic.

Every job I mentioned above I deemed required the same or less skill, risk, and investment than pizza delivery. Millions of Americans young and old do these jobs. They are not just for students and young people. So if we are going to continue with your philosophy, you are condeming millions of Americans to a life of poverty. I read some of your posts. You seemed very concerned and aware of the devaluation of the dollar. Don't you know inflation and the devaluing of the dollar is the preferred method of choice by the rich to widen the gap between them and the poor? So I don’t need to write 500 words on my response to you. I can sum it up in 2 letters. F.U.

Posted by harkm on 01-13-09 04:26 PM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Every job I mentioned above I deemed required the same or less skill, risk, and investment than pizza delivery. Millions of Americans young and old do these jobs. They are not just for students and young people. So if we are going to continue with your philosophy, you are condeming millions of Americans to a life of poverty. I read some of your posts. You seemed very concerned and aware of the devaluation of the dollar. Don't you know inflation and the devaluing of the dollar is the preferred method of choice by the rich to widen the gap between them and the poor? So I don’t need to write 500 words on my response to you. I can sum it up in 2 letters. F.U.

Touchy, Touchy.

Does this mean this thread is dead?

Posted by clacy on 01-13-09 04:28 PM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Every job I mentioned above I deemed required the same or less skill, risk, and investment than pizza delivery. Millions of Americans young and old do these jobs. They are not just for students and young people. So if we are going to continue with your philosophy, you are condeming millions of Americans to a life of poverty. I read some of your posts. You seemed very concerned and aware of the devaluation of the dollar. Don't you know inflation and the devaluing of the dollar is the preferred method of choice by the rich to widen the gap between them and the poor? So I don’t need to write 500 words on my response to you. I can sum it up in 2 letters. F.U.

Why do you constantly focus on "why you can't" instead of "what you can"?

Think about that for a while.

Instead of chosing pizza delivery, why don't you chose something that is more highly skilled, compensated, sought after?

I could go out and find 3+ pizza delivery jobs today, if I chose to, which means that it requires little skill. All they are looking for is someone that will show up for their shift and has a vehicle.

Find a career that is a little more skilled, as has been discussed.

Quite frankly, I have no more pitty for you, because anyone that has time to come to ET and talk about their problems, isn't working hard enough to justify that complaining, in my opinion.

You should be working so hard, that you don't have the time or energy to complain on an internet board. Then and only then, would I agree that you have the right to complain.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-13-09 05:12 PM:

Quote from harkm:
Touchy, Touchy. Does this mean this thread is dead?

No, it means your argument is dead.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-13-09 05:15 PM:

Quote from clacy:
Why do you constantly focus on "why you can't" instead of "what you can"?

Think about that for a while.

Instead of chosing pizza delivery, why don't you chose something that is more highly skilled, compensated, sought after?

I could go out and find 3+ pizza delivery jobs today, if I chose to, which means that it requires little skill. All they are looking for is someone that will show up for their shift and has a vehicle.

Find a career that is a little more skilled, as has been discussed.

Quite frankly, I have no more pitty for you, because anyone that has time to come to ET and talk about their problems, isn't working hard enough to justify that complaining, in my opinion.

You should be working so hard, that you don't have the time or energy to complain on an internet board. Then and only then, would I agree that you have the right to complain.

Didn’t we already go over this? Right now I’m filling in for the day for my friend who owns a store in the local mall. 30 feet from me is the kiosk that I owned for 6 months. I worked 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, and invested over $25,000 to see that business succeed. Do you think I had a “why can’t I” mentality when I opened that? I tried everything I could. I asked friends and family for advice on why I had no business. The mall staff couldn’t figure it out. A local magazine even put my product and store location in as one of their top 10 gifts for the holidays. All of this failed miserably and nobody I asked could explain why to me.

So don’t tell me I haven’t worked hard enough. This is just one of the many things I have tried and nothing has worked out. Again we still have this notion that hard work pays off when it clearly doesn’t. Only smart work pays off and perhaps even to some extent dishonest work pays off.

BTW, that kiosk is empty right now. Several merchants have been there since me, all are gone now. I guess I figured out that this mall isn’t the best place to do business. Unfortunately it took me $20,000 to figure that out. That’s how business goes.

I didn’t go the traditional go to college to get a good job route. Maybe I should have. But I don’t want to work for somebody else and have to rely on them. I’ve been trying to make it on my own.

Posted by Free Thinker on 01-13-09 05:24 PM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

You got it. I can’t save like I used to.

I can’t comment on people in Europe, I don’t know anything about the way things are there other than they seem to have a lot higher taxes and a lot of social programs.

You’re right, if I was able to save X $’s, then a higher level job should be able to save a lot more. I don’t see why this shouldn’t be the case. You have to also take into account that I don’t really care about a lot of the things others do. I have a higher goal and am willing to sacrifice the time and money now to achieve it later. I still live with my parents, so that I don’t have that extra burden. Many my age are realizing that is the only way they will ever have a shot at anything. It’s not uncommon now for kids to live at home into their 20’s. My sister just moved back, she’s 22. We can’t afford a $1000 apartment. I have bought 3 cars. The most expensive was $5000. The car I have now has 226k miles. I hardly buy new clothes and pretty much watch every dollar I spend. So maybe that is why I used to be able to save a lot. I’m not cheap, I just see the bigger picture. My one nemisis is obviously trading, and once every 2 years I buy a nice cell phone.

I have never ever said that I should get rich deliverying pizza. That would never work. I think many here are not getting this point. What I have asked is why did such an unskilled job used to provide so much, but now is barely providing minimum wage. Nobody seems to want to answer this. I will never get rich deliverying pizza, but I can get rich taking the money I can save from pizza and investing that and starting new businesses with that. But I can’t do that if I’m barely able to pay my bills and the cost of living never seems to stop going up.

What I have never figured out is why there is this notion that if you don’t have a skilled job, then you pretty much deserve to make so little money that you’ll inevitably live in poverty. Where does this thinking originate from? Is it a new economic theory or is it market based economics?

I went to the wisest source I could find to see what could be said about work and labor. I really don’t like religion, but I figured the Bible was a good source to look to. I was unable to find any verses that said those who work hard, but at an unskilled job, deserve poverty. Instead I found this.

2 Thessalonians 3:10
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."

Proverbs 12:11
He who works his land will have abundant food, but he who chases fantasies lacks judgment.

Proverbs 14:23
All hard work brings a profit, but mere talk leads only to poverty.

Romans 13:7
Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

I Corinthians 9:7-11
Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk? Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn't the Law say the same thing? For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned? Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you?

James 5:4
Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty.

These seem to suggest that labor should be rewarded accordingly. I never saw a verse that said somebody should work and not be paid his worth, or that only skilled workers deserve to eat. The overriding theme seems to be an honest days work should be granted an honest days pay. I’m not a Bible expert, so feel free to disagree, I know most of you will.

So here is a list of as many jobs that I can think of that are doomed to poverty if we continue with this notion that only skilled work should be justly compensated. I know I’m going to take a lot of heat for this post, and frankly I don’t care. Somebody has to say it.

Pizza delivery drivers, janitors, taxi drivers, cashiers, cooks at fast food restaurants, host and hostesses, waiters, bar tenders, receptionists, maids, lawn care people, bell boy’s, school bus drivers, mailmen, postal workers, DMV workers, grocery store stocking clerks, couriers, trash collectors, prostitutes, hotel roomservice workers, newspaper delivery persons, UPS drivers, parking attendants, probably most low end government jobs and pretty much most retail jobs.

the first thing you need to understand is the bible was written as a means of keeping the poor under control.

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPs_j1EEplI&feature=feedwll&list=WL

Posted by harkm on 01-13-09 05:25 PM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Didn’t we already go over this? Right now I’m filling in for the day for my friend who owns a store in the local mall. 30 feet from me is the kiosk that I owned for 6 months. I worked 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, and invested over $25,000 to see that business succeed. Do you think I had a “why can’t I” mentality when I opened that? I tried everything I could. I asked friends and family for advice on why I had no business. The mall staff couldn’t figure it out. A local magazine even put my product and store location in as one of their top 10 gifts for the holidays. All of this failed miserably and nobody I asked could explain why to me.

So don’t tell me I haven’t worked hard enough. This is just one of the many things I have tried and nothing has worked out. Again we still have this notion that hard work pays off when it clearly doesn’t. Only smart work pays off and perhaps even to some extent dishonest work pays off.

BTW, that kiosk is empty right now. Several merchants have been there since me, all are gone now. I guess I figured out that this mall isn’t the best place to do business. Unfortunately it took me $20,000 to figure that out. That’s how business goes.

I didn’t go the traditional go to college to get a good job route. Maybe I should have. But I don’t want to work for somebody else and have to rely on them. I’ve been trying to make it on my own.

Sandybestdog, how did you save up the $25000?

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-13-09 05:43 PM:

Quote from harkm:
Sandybestdog, how did you save up the $25000?

Haven’t you been reading this thread? PIZZA DELIVERY. $2 and $3 tips at a time. I made almost every dime I’ve ever invested in the markets and business doing what society deems as a worthless job. Also as I explained earlier, I live a very modest life. I live with my parents and drive a very old car. I used to watch every dollar I spend because I wanted to, now I do it because I have to.

So again. I’ll ask the question nobody has answered. If I used to make lots of money doing a worthless job, how come I can’t anymore? How long until skilled proffessions like nurses, electricians, computer tech’s etc. are saying the same thing?

Posted by harkm on 01-13-09 05:51 PM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

Haven’t you been reading this thread? PIZZA DELIVERY. $2 and $3 tips at a time. I made almost every dime I’ve ever invested in the markets and business doing what society deems as a worthless job. Also as I explained earlier, I live a very modest life. I live with my parents and drive a very old car. I used to watch every dollar I spend because I wanted to, now I do it because I have to.

So again. I’ll ask the question nobody has answered. If I used to make lots of money doing a worthless job, how come I can’t anymore? How long until skilled proffessions like nurses, electricians, computer tech’s etc. are saying the same thing?

Sorry, I didn't read the entire thread because some of the posts were rather long. Damn, if you saved $25000 delivering pizzas that is some serious saving. The answer to your question is tough. Are you delivering less pizzas or are you getting less tips per pizza or both? You can still do a lot with $25000 even now.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-14-09 12:58 AM:

Quote from harkm:
Sorry, I didn't read the entire thread because some of the posts were rather long. Damn, if you saved $25000 delivering pizzas that is some serious saving. The answer to your question is tough. Are you delivering less pizzas or are you getting less tips per pizza or both? You can still do a lot with $25000 even now.

Sorry about that. Yes I know my posts can get a little long. It’s a combination of vetting a little and the fact that I don’t get this sort of mental exercise elsewhere. Everywhere I go, everywhere I work, and most everbody I know is not quite so engaging. I like arguing, in case you haven’t noticed. Nobody I know wants to make money and change the world. I try to meet people, but haven’t found any, except online.

$25,000 can go a long way. I don’t have any money any more. I lost it all in trading and business, and have some credit cards to pay off now. Like I said before, that is perfectly ok. That’s how business goes. The problem is that I can’t make the money anymore to invest in other things. So I am faced with the reality now that I need to make a career change to make up for it and lack the skills and experience to do that. Getting those will inevitably take more time and money.

Why isn’t pizza delivery what it used to be? Well that would take a while to explain. Business is down that’s for sure. I actually get paid less by the company than I did 5 years ago. The $2 delivery charge that the company charges goes to them, not me. So customers think I get it and don’t tip or tip less. The good customers don’t order as much any more because they don’t have money either. The bad, poor customers will always spend money though. I only get 86 cents per delivery for mileage, and that is nowhere near enough so I have to pay out of pocket for car repairs. The price of gas is the least of my concerns. The labor market is very tight now and there are a lot of other drivers now and we have to all split the few orders left. Meanwhile it seems the cost of living never stops going up. I'm sure many other jobs are facing the same challanges right now.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-14-09 01:09 AM:

Quote from vhehn:
the first thing you need to understand is the bible was written as a means of keeping the poor under control.

You think so? Everytime I hear the Europeans talk about their Socialistic programs, they seem to point to Jesus as the first Socialist. I disagree with this completely, but it does seem like the Bible focus’s on the needs of the poor a lot and protecting them. But Jesus told the rich man to sell all his possessions and give it to the poor, not for Caesar to take all the rich man’s money and give it to the poor while keeping a big chunk for himself.

I was raised in a very Christian home, but for all intensive purposes, I don’t really care about that anymore. That’s a discussion for another day.

Posted by clacy on 01-14-09 01:15 AM:

Quote from vhehn:

the first thing you need to understand is the bible was written as a means of keeping the poor under control.

Yes, because all of the other religions do so well comparitively to Christians in regards to economics. This must be true. Great point, with tons of factual information to back it up!!!!!!!

Posted by volente_00 on 01-14-09 01:16 AM:

Quote from vhehn:

the first thing you need to understand is the bible was written as a means of keeping the poor under control.

You have the bible confused with capitalism.

Posted by clacy on 01-14-09 01:17 AM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

I was raised in a very Christian home, but for all intensive purposes, I don’t really care about that anymore. That’s a discussion for another day.

Not trying to be a prick or the Grammar Police because I hate that, but for future reference it is actually "intents and purposes", not "intensive purposes"

Posted by volente_00 on 01-14-09 01:33 AM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

So again. I’ll ask the question nobody has answered. If I used to make lots of money doing a worthless job, how come I can’t anymore?

Because you don't want it bad enough.

Instead of wasting time on et, go get a second job at a pizza joint since you claim that is the only skill you really have, or since you like delivering, go get a newspaper route from 3 to 6 am for an extra $1000 a month income.

There are 2 kinds of people in life. Those that let things happen, and those that make things happen.

You think you are the only person that ever struggled financially in life ? I too came from a poor family. I can remember once when my parents had to pawn their wedding rings just to make ends meet. Have you ever been to a grocery store and had to help your mom count out $10 in change just so you could eat that night ? When I was 15, I worked 72 hours a week in the summer to just to help pay the bills. During high school I worked 40 hours a week. Was it easy ? No. Did I miss out on fun ? Yes. But it forced me to have to grow up at a young age and to understand that if you want something bad enough, you bust your a$$ and find a way to make it happen. So you have 2 choices, you can either stay held down by the chains that bind you and be miserable the rest of your life or you make the CHOICE to CHANGE your life forever. I've already told you how. The rest is up to you. I made my choice a long time ago, but even with everything that I have now, I will never forget where I came from .

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-14-09 02:07 AM:

Quote from clacy:
Yes, because all of the other religions do so well comparitively to Christians in regards to economics. This must be true. Great point, with tons of factual information to back it up!!!!!!!

I’m no historian, but for the most part it seems up until the past 200 years, religions pretty much ruled the governments and the people. And just think of how far we’ve come in technology, medicine, and economic progress since then. We’re more “worldly” than ever, yet better off. Although it seems we have just as many wars. Bottom line, we are the answer to our own problems, not God.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-14-09 02:10 AM:

Quote from clacy:
Not trying to be a prick or the Grammar Police because I hate that, but for future reference it is actually "intents and purposes", not "intensive purposes"

My bad. I’d blame it on my schooling, but if I told you where I went to school, I’d never hear the end of it from you guys.

Posted by Free Thinker on 01-14-09 02:38 AM:

Quote from clacy:

Yes, because all of the other religions do so well comparitively to Christians in regards to economics. This must be true. Great point, with tons of factual information to back it up!!!!!!!

primitive rulers created concepts like justice in the afterlife to keep the peasants under control. after all if the peasants felt that some god would do justice in the afterlife they would be less likely to rise up and kill the rulers now. if they could be convinced there was a heaven in theiir future they might be less unsatisfied in this life.

"Religion is regarded by the common man as true, the wise man as false, and the rulers as useful."

~Seneca the Younger 4 b.c.- 65 a.d

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPs_j1EEplI&feature=feedwll&list=WL

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-14-09 03:43 AM:

Quote from volente_00:
Because you don't want it bad enough.

Really, that’s like telling Hilary she didn’t want it enough. But she got beat by somebody who happened to be the right person, in the right place, at the right time.

I got a paper route when I was 11 and had that for 4 years. In high school I used to call all those “make $5000 a month” poster. For most of the past 6 years I have never worked less than 40 hours and most of the time worked 60+. A few years ago I worked 2 full time jobs and put 50k miles on my car in 7 months deliverying pizza and driving as a courier.

I think everybody here has me confused with a knocked up ghetto woman with 4 kids and another one in the oven who thinks the government should pay for everything. Not me. Have I worked my butt off? Yes. Have I failed miserably? Yes. Am I going to give up? No.

On the bright side, I sent out 3 resume’s today and just got a call back (at 10:00 at night?!). Interview on Thursday.

This pretty much sums it up.

Tina Fey: It just shows all you have to do is want it.
Amy Poehler: Looking back, if I could change one thing, I should have wanted it more.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 01-25-09 03:11 PM:

Here’s a great article for you guys to have fun with. I guess they left out the part talking about the big screen tv’s and vacation home.

When is everybody going to realize we don’t have a lifestyle problem. We don’t have an education problem. We don’t have spending problems. We don’t have work ethic problems. We have a jobs problem. As long as we continue with our current policy’s, stories like these will only increase.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/pers...iref=newssearch
(CNN) -- Donna LeBlanc gave her husband, a former restaurant manager, the stark ultimatum: become a pizza delivery man or their family "wouldn't make it."
The Lafayette, Louisiana, family of six was struggling with $45,000 of mounting medical debt from Donna LeBlanc's unexpected case of pneumonia and tonsillitis a year earlier. The family savings account had dwindled to $100.
"It's embarrassing for my husband to take a job he is overqualified for, and I know he feels ashamed at times," says Donna LeBlanc, a 35-year-old mother with four children. "But this is what we have to do and we're going to make the best out of it."
She watched her husband, Rob LeBlanc, 35, load Domino's pizza boxes into their family car and deliver orders until near dawn for $10 an hour.
The family first told their story of falling on hard times on iReport.com. Share your economic survivor story with CNN.
Until last summer, Rob LeBlanc had worked as a manager at a truck stop restaurant, making $55,000 a year. He lost that job to the falling economy.
Rob LeBlanc says he noticed business at the truck stop getting sluggish a year ago. Then the spike in gas prices last summer exacerbated the restaurant's dire circumstances. Many penny-pinching truck drivers avoided his restaurant altogether, he says.
Rob LeBlanc filed for unemployment compensation immediately after he lost his job. More than 4.6 million Americans were collecting unemployment benefits as of early January, according to the Labor Department.
In Lafayette, a quiet city of about 114,000 tucked away in southern Louisiana, many of the jobs center around servicing the oil and gas industry, but Rob LeBlanc was unwilling to work offshore and away from his family.
When he applied for other jobs, he was told he was either under-qualified or had too much experience.
After several weeks of searching, he took the only job he could get -- a Domino's pizza delivery man, a job that would cover the family's expenses.
"I had to swallow my pride and take whatever I could get," Rob LeBlanc says. "I kept telling myself one of these days something better will come along."
He spent nearly five months delivering pizzas at Domino's. He admits he fell into depression during that time.
But the family received good news Friday, when a private security company hired Rob LeBlanc to be a security officer. He says the company offers many opportunities to move up to a managerial position.
"My first thought was to tell my wife right away," he says. "I could hear the relief in her voice."
Taking a job as a pizza man wasn't the only sacrifice he's made for his family -- he's also selling his beloved 2003 Kawasaki motorcycle.
Donna LeBlanc earns a few hundred dollars a week exterminating mosquitoes for a bug control company. Before her husband lost his job, she had talked of going back to school to pursue a biology degree at Louisiana State University.
The LeBlanc family lives lean in their five-bedroom, three-bathroom house with its $440 a month mortgage. The couple is teaching their children about budgeting and bargaining while relying on coupons and sales. They no longer eat out and no longer have cable TV. For entertainment, they attend free movies at a church. Donna LeBlanc takes pride that they have no credit card debt.
Their children Brooke, 9, Christopher, 14, and Courtney, 13, no longer receive allowances. Soon after her father's job loss, Courtney started cleaning houses and baby-sitting and earned enough money to buy a dress for her first school dance -- off the clearance rack.
The LeBlancs' oldest child, Sean, 16, who attends high school, still hasn't found a job. He says the competition has gotten stiff, with many older workers in the area out of jobs. "I'm trying," said Sean, who has been looking for a job since October. "There are just no openings."
The LeBlancs have found some unexpected happiness. Donna LeBlanc says her husband now spends more time at home. Not being able to leave the house for entertainment has brought the children closer together over books, games and conversation.
"This experience has given us time to reconnect with each other," Donna LeBlanc says. "And it's taught us to just keep trying and believe that things will get better."

Posted by Sandybestdog on 02-15-09 12:34 AM:

I just got my yearly notice from Carefirst BCBS. My health insurance is going from $235 to $272 a month. A 15% increase in one year in a deflationary economy! In 2003 when I got it, it was $160. I’m trying to think. I think I went to the doctor two or three times last year and paid for my one prescription out of pocket. And you wonder why people aren’t saving. Do you think my employer is giving me a 15% raise to make up for this? Is anybody’s? No, we’re told to work harder for the same thing. Let them Man stick it to you. But I bet nobody wants to talk about this. You guys want to talk about the mom with 5 kids on welfare with their big screen tv or maybe Obama's birth certificate.

Posted by KeithOmalley on 02-15-09 12:55 AM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

I just got my yearly notice from Carefirst BCBS. My health insurance is going from $235 to $272 a month. A 15% increase in one year in a deflationary economy! In 2003 when I got it, it was $160. Iï¿½m trying to think. I think I went to the doctor two or three times last year and paid for my one prescription out of pocket. And you wonder why people arenï¿½t saving. Do you think my employer is giving me a 15% raise to make up for this? Is anybodyï¿½s? No, weï¿½re told to work harder for the same thing. Let them Man stick it to you. But I bet nobody wants to talk about this. You guys want to talk about the mom with 5 kids on welfare with their big screen tv or maybe Obama's birth certificate.

your health insurance is only $272 per month? where do you work? can i use u as a reference? thats a great rate.

Posted by MattF on 02-15-09 01:15 AM:

It'll be one way but the other gets cut.

The company I work for (hourly, not salary) announced we were getting a pay raise...which turned out to be just under 2%. No surprise there.

However, they then turned around and eliminated all matching 401K contributions starting next week "until the economic conditions improve."

Not to fully complain, I am working on an exit strategy which involves taking a side job as well for extra pay, but spending as much available time as I can reading, studying, and applying all the learning bits to this field. I too, intend to take the chance and dive in entrepreneurial wise...at this stage really, I don't have much if anything to lose and could gain a lot!

Sadly, others will just sit there and toil, hoping things can get better yet not doing much to better themselves...

__________________
---------
Disclaimer:

Many of my posts are tounge-in-cheek. Unlike some trolls on here I don't make calls just to make them and piss off everyone (and sound serious in that you should take them). Therefore none of them shall be held against me for any liability should you be stupid enough to take them.

Posted by MattF on 02-15-09 01:17 AM:

Quote from KeithOmalley:

your health insurance is only $272 per month? where do you work? can i use u as a reference? thats a great rate.

I looked at Massachusetts Blue Cross/Blue Shield a couple years ago. Basic rates start for a single person for as little as $200/month. $225 I think had a much better coverage plan overall.

My employer covers a lot, so we pay like $80ish a month overall...but I'm on the Massachusetts state plan which is even a bit cheaper!

Like Sandy said, I too, think about what I'm using and projecting. I like never go to the doctor's, maybe have a couple of checkups/tests each year elsewhere, rarely take any medications (have asthma which is allergen-induced, even then that's only a 1-2 time a year flair-up). So the costs are still worth it now, as those tests alone would cost probably 2-3 times the amount overall...otherwise take those away, wtf am I paying for? (aside from the "just in case" scenario)

Posted by MattF on 02-15-09 01:20 AM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

I just got my yearly notice from Carefirst BCBS. My health insurance is going from $235 to $272 a month. A 15% increase in one year in a deflationary economy! In 2003 when I got it, it was $160. I’m trying to think. I think I went to the doctor two or three times last year and paid for my one prescription out of pocket. And you wonder why people aren’t saving. Do you think my employer is giving me a 15% raise to make up for this? Is anybody’s? No, we’re told to work harder for the same thing. Let them Man stick it to you. But I bet nobody wants to talk about this. You guys want to talk about the mom with 5 kids on welfare with their big screen tv or maybe Obama's birth certificate.

yea...80% in 6 years, 13% or so per year on average.

Many companies however held rates very steady or didn't raise them as we were in a "boom economy" (so-called)...so profits go through the roof...and even more so because pay rates were also held in check or minimized.

Now that growth isn't as big, or as much, suddenly not only are all the cuts being made, rates and costs are seeing double-digit "growth"...which could equate from anything as 30 cents for a food item to 30-40/month for a health plan, to thousands in education...

Posted by Sandybestdog on 02-15-09 02:01 AM:

Quote from KeithOmalley:
your health insurance is only $272 per month? where do you work? can i use u as a reference? thats a great rate.

My company doesn’t provide benefits. I’m a loser pizza delivery driver in case you haven’t read the rest of the thread. Trying to be a responsible person, I bought my own individual policy. I’m the only one on the plan, no one else. It is a standard hmo. Perhaps its lower than you might think because I chose the highest co-pay’s possible to lower the monthly premium, as I don’t go to the doctor much. When I go to my eye doctor (I have glaucoma) I pay $30, whereas you might pay $10. My prescription plan has a $150 deductible, I think. Also there is no dental, but I pay $10 a month for a dental network that gives discounted rates. So if you have the super duper plan, I see how it would cost more. Also I’m 24, I don’t know how old you are.

Anyways the point is there is no justification for a 15% increase in our present deflationary environment. You want to know why they raised it? Because they are the Man and they can. I’ll have to admit though, I have had zero problems with this policy. I have never even called them one time. They honor my referrals to both my eye doctors, whom I’ve had 2 minor surgery’s with. Which is exactly why I’m reluctant to look into an alternative.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 02-15-09 02:17 AM:

Quote from MattF:
I looked at Massachusetts Blue Cross/Blue Shield a couple years ago. Basic rates start for a single person for as little as $200/month. $225 I think had a much better coverage plan overall.

My employer covers a lot, so we pay like $80ish a month overall...but I'm on the Massachusetts state plan which is even a bit cheaper!

Like Sandy said, I too, think about what I'm using and projecting. I like never go to the doctor's, maybe have a couple of checkups/tests each year elsewhere, rarely take any medications (have asthma which is allergen-induced, even then that's only a 1-2 time a year flair-up). So the costs are still worth it now, as those tests alone would cost probably 2-3 times the amount overall...otherwise take those away, wtf am I paying for? (aside from the "just in case" scenario)

Your paying for somebody else’s huge bills, just like they’ll pay for yours whenever that might happen.

How did Mitt do with the Massachusetts plan anyways? He touted it a lot, but we haven’t heard much about it. Do you you think that could work on a national leverl?

Posted by Sandybestdog on 02-15-09 02:24 AM:

Quote from MattF:
It'll be one way but the other gets cut.

The company I work for (hourly, not salary) announced we were getting a pay raise...which turned out to be just under 2%. No surprise there.

However, they then turned around and eliminated all matching 401K contributions starting next week "until the economic conditions improve."

Not to fully complain, I am working on an exit strategy which involves taking a side job as well for extra pay, but spending as much available time as I can reading, studying, and applying all the learning bits to this field. I too, intend to take the chance and dive in entrepreneurial wise...at this stage really, I don't have much if anything to lose and could gain a lot!

Sadly, others will just sit there and toil, hoping things can get better yet not doing much to better themselves...

You’re exactly proving my point. We’re told to work harder, learn more, get a better job just so we can make the same money. It’s crazy. Nobody’s getting a 15% raise, so why do the health insurance company’s? I really hope your endeavors work out. You have to hit it big now to get ahead. Otherwise you’re stuck on a treadmill. As soon as you work harder they’ll just turn the speed up.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 02-15-09 02:32 AM:

Quote from MattF:
yea...80% in 6 years, 13% or so per year on average.

Many companies however held rates very steady or didn't raise them as we were in a "boom economy" (so-called)...so profits go through the roof...and even more so because pay rates were also held in check or minimized.

Now that growth isn't as big, or as much, suddenly not only are all the cuts being made, rates and costs are seeing double-digit "growth"...which could equate from anything as 30 cents for a food item to 30-40/month for a health plan, to thousands in education...

Well I think we’ve seen a huge inflation boom the past few years. Now that we are in a somewhat deflationary period, you’d think prices would start going down, but I don’t see that. Some of it may be justified. For instance restaurants were absorbing a lot of the costs in rising commodity prices. Now that they have crashed, you aren’t seeing the price drop that we thought would happen because they are trying to make some of that money back. Of couse their employees will never see any a raise from those higher prices.

Posted by karol88 on 02-15-09 02:42 AM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

My company doesnï¿½t provide benefits. Iï¿½m a loser pizza delivery driver in case you havenï¿½t read the rest of the thread.

stop calling yourself a loser or it will become true....your life won't change for the better if you don't change your attitude...sandythebestdog, you gave up before even trying...

Posted by nutmeg on 02-15-09 02:42 AM:

Sandy, I've been following a few of your posts.I have a suggestion. Learn the pizza business and open your own pizzeria.

"Learn more?" I suggest rudimentary accounting courses and keep two sets of books. This is the key to get ahead and Pizza joints rock because it is a cash business.

Diversify your life investments into three parts. Self employement (opportunity to write off everything), buy a piece of real estate and thirdly invest in the market.

Befriend an insurance agent, there are all sorts of vehicles to provide income years down the road. You are young and the products are cheap (time is on your side).

Posted by Sandybestdog on 02-15-09 04:22 AM:

Quote from karol88:
stop calling yourself a loser or it will become true....your life won't change for the better if you don't change your attitude...sandythebestdog, you gave up before even trying...

I think you know I was being sarcastic. I was just informing him of where I work before someones else jumps all over me ripping health insurance because I deliver pizza. Most other people on ET would classify me as a loser and I don’t really care what they think. I’m just like millions of other Americans trying to get ahead and finding it very difficult and can’t figure out why.

I never gave up before trying. My past posts explain plenty of what I’ve done. I challenge anybody here to tell me about a 24 year old that they know who has worked as hard as I have, who has saved and invested as much as I have before losing it all, who has played by the rules, not lived extravagantly and sacrificed so much today for the promise of tomorrow, who has toiled for thousands of hours just trying to find that one thing that will make it for them but has never found it. BTW I haven’t given up, I just want my health insurance to stop going up every year so I can have a chance at getting ahead, and for Chase to stop charging me 24% on a credit card that I’ve never missed a payment on in 6 years, so that I can try to pay down the balance.

Posted by forextrades on 02-15-09 05:18 AM:

Sandy, with all due respect, I think you're full of shit.

Why?

Because I'm 24. I went to school. I make a livable wage. I've had a Chase CC for 3 years, never missed a payment, and my interest rate is 8.99%. My health insurance rate hasn't gone up either.

BTW, I'm not that smart.

So, you're either lying or you're doing something wrong.

You make some valid points that I agree with. The gap between the rich and the poor is increasing. It's only going to get worse. If you don't do something about it now, you'll get left in the dust.

Ten, twenty, thirties years from now you'll still be bitching about it. You'll be kicking yourself for not doing something years ago.

It takes about five years before a small business turns a consistent profit. I know several contractors who can vouch for this. It's especially true in the food-service industry. Think of it like earning a degree.

If you're not prepared to stick with it, don't even bother.

__________________
"Mom, this is Mark Bingham."

Posted by Sandybestdog on 02-15-09 05:32 AM:

Quote from nutmeg:
Sandy, I've been following a few of your posts.I have a suggestion. Learn the pizza business and open your own pizzeria.

"Learn more?" I suggest rudimentary accounting courses and keep two sets of books. This is the key to get ahead and Pizza joints rock because it is a cash business.

Diversify your life investments into three parts. Self employement (opportunity to write off everything), buy a piece of real estate and thirdly invest in the market.

Befriend an insurance agent, there are all sorts of vehicles to provide income years down the road. You are young and the products are cheap (time is on your side).

Thanks for that. I’ll come up with recipes if you can co-sign the 250k loan!! No, seriously an oven by itself costs 40k. It’s no small task. It’s funny that you mentioned that. The past few days I’ve been thinking of a few recipes. Last night I tried chocolate popcorn. That didn’t turn out to great. Tonight I made funnel cakes, which turned out much better. I’ve been thinking about a bacon, egg and cheese breakfast pizza. That sounds yummy.

This would be an absolutely great time to start a restaurant. You could get a great deal on a lease or purchase. Driving down Rt. 355 where I live, I saw at least 2-3 empty buildings that would make great locations. The commercial real estate market hasn't collapsed yet, but I'm sure you can get some good deals. Build your business now when everybody else is contracting and you’ll take huge market share when the economy recovers. Best of all, you can have your pick of good people to work with now. People now are hungry for an opportunity if given a chance. The big 3 pizza chains have demoralized everybody. Their business is ripe for the taking.

I took accounting 101 a few years ago. I’m sure most things could be handled through Quickbooks. The key to running a seamless restaurant is a good point-of-sale system. You need to make it idiot proof and know how to get it working again very quickly in case it crashes in the middle of a Friday night rush. Proper inventory management is also crucial. Never run out of anything, you’ll regret it and it’s unfair to the customer. I am a licensed insurance agent, so I’m a little familiar with that. I’m not sure what areas you were talking about. Of course the key to having money is to have it make more money. I just haven’t figured out how yet.

This is a great story I heard the other day. Black Market Pizza, that is the coolest name ever. I hope those guys do well.

http://www.cnn.com/video/?JSONLINK=...rket.pizza.kcci

Posted by Sandybestdog on 02-15-09 06:21 AM:

Quote from forextrades:
Sandy, with all due respect, I think you're full of shit.

Why?

Because I'm 24. I went to school. I make a livable wage. I've had a Chase CC for 3 years, never missed a payment, and my interest rate is 8.99%. My health insurance rate hasn't gone up either.

BTW, I'm not that smart.

So, you're either lying or you're doing something wrong.

You make some valid points that I agree with. The gap between the rich and the poor is increasing. It's only going to get worse. If you don't do something about it now, you'll get left in the dust.

Ten, twenty, thirties years from now you'll still be bitching about it. You'll be kicking yourself for not doing something years ago.

It takes about five years before a small business turns a consistent profit. I know several contractors who can vouch for this. It's especially true in the food-service industry. Think of it like earning a degree.

If you're not prepared to stick with it, don't even bother.

If I’m full of shit, why do your statements pretty much agree with everything I’ve been saying? I read some of your posts and you are very aware of the state of the economy. We pretty much agree on everything.

If you want, I can show you a copy of my CC statement from 5 years ago and now and show you the rate. I can also show you a copy of my credit report showing perfect payment history. Your rates probably haven’t gone up yet because you don’t owe them like I do. As soon as they know you’re in trouble they jack the rate. Don’t take my word for it, google this. I am not the only one. I can also show you my insurance premiums going from $160 to $272 in 6 years.

I am not lying and I am probably doing something wrong. If there’s one thing in life I’ve learned, it’s that to get ahead, you usually have to screw other people to get there. If you play by the rules and work hard and expect to get ahead, you’ll probably be dissapointed. I just haven’t figured out a way to screw anybody yet, nor do I have the conscience for that. I’m sure a lot of people have made it by doing what’s right and following the rules, and hopefully I can too. But it sure seems a whole lot easier for the bad people to get ahead.

I’d suggest you read this thread through and some of my other posts, if you haven’t already done so, and see all the things I’ve done to try to get ahead. No, I didn’t go the traditional route like you and go to college (except for 2 semesters), but I’ve tried many things instead. I’ve been trying for 6 years. I don’t have time to go into everything, but I am the one who is most aware of how much I’ve wanted it and seen nothing. I know the world is just getting worse and I am trying to do something about it. But we have to recognize the problem before we fix the situation, hence the occassional bitching. We don’t solve problems by ignoring them. Good luck with your career.

Posted by hughb on 02-15-09 07:25 AM:

Quote from forextrades:

Sandy, with all due respect, I think you're full of shit.

Why?

Because I'm 24. I went to school. I make a livable wage. I've had a Chase CC for 3 years, never missed a payment, and my interest rate is 8.99%. My health insurance rate hasn't gone up either.

BTW, I'm not that smart.

So, you're either lying or you're doing something wrong.

You make some valid points that I agree with. The gap between the rich and the poor is increasing. It's only going to get worse. If you don't do something about it now, you'll get left in the dust.

Ten, twenty, thirties years from now you'll still be bitching about it. You'll be kicking yourself for not doing something years ago.

It takes about five years before a small business turns a consistent profit. I know several contractors who can vouch for this. It's especially true in the food-service industry. Think of it like earning a degree.

If you're not prepared to stick with it, don't even bother.

WTF???? I think YOU'RE full of shit!!! Your health insurance rate hasn't gone up?? Everybody I've talked to that has insurance has seen it go up over the last five years or so. Mine has gone from $9 a month five years ago to $44 a month now. I get it through my employer who is owned by Pepsico.

Come on man, your health insurance hasn't gone up? I'm calling bullshit. Who's your insurer?

Posted by Specterx on 02-16-09 03:20 AM:

Quote from Sandybestdog:

The title of this thread is “why don’t American’s save?” After 26 pages, just about the only thing we’ve established is that I’m a lazy Communist who wants everything given to me. I’m trying to talk about my and others issues on why we aren’t saving. I used to save a $1000 a month. Not anymore.

I think Americans don't save partly for cultural reasons (conspicuous consumption and ostentatious displays of wealth used to be prized in our culture; maybe not so much anymore). A documentary I was watching the other day interviewed this guy who was making over $100,000 a month for several years at the height of the credit bubble. Now his house has been seized, all cars sold off etc. etc. and he's forced to rent an apartment. Can you imagine somebody making >$1 million a year and being so stupid and shortsighted as to fritter away every cent of it? That's the world we lived in.

I think the other big factor is that wages haven't kept up with inflation. It's just not possible to fulfill the average American's material wants (and 'wants' easily become 'needs') on the average American's salary. People make up the difference by borrowing and refuse to give up "necessities" like $100-a-month cable service. C'est la vie.

In your case, the problem is that pizza delivery is a zero-skills job. It doesn't require physical labor, specialized knowledge, or experience. If you want to earn more (in preparation for going out on your own) I strongly recommend learning a trade like plumbing, electrical work, or carpentry. These jobs require more physical labor, but also probably pay more than an entry-level desk job where you'll be competing against people with college degrees. It's also easy to go out on your own once you've got the skills down and a few years' experience.

Alternatively, have you considering being a policemen/sheriff's deputy, prison guard, fireman, something like that? I know a guy who made 60-70k a year as an independent mover. You won't get rich doing these jobs but you'll be able to save quite a bit by living cheaply.

Posted by dave74 on 02-16-09 03:39 AM:

Quote from Sam Mcgee:

I've written it here before, the reason that Americans spend too much is because of the amount of television that they watch. Look up any statistics for the hours of television and you'll see that Americans watch almost double the amount compared to any other county. Why do Americans watch so much TV? It's because most of the best programs are made for the largest market place, the United States. Other countries are not as interested in American TV because it isn't made for them.

I lived in the United States for a while about 20 years ago and that was the biggest difference I noticed, after dinner just about everyone was planted in front of the TV there.

The other thing that leads to excess consumption in the United States is that their mortgages are tax deductible. What happens is that as soon as some equity is built up in a home, people use that as a source of extra money to spend. In a round about way, the American government is subsidizing excess consumption with these tax deductions. The amount of money that the United States government has given up for these tax deductions is roughly the same amount that the government is in debt.

Consumption is good to build up an economy but when it gets excessive you end up with a trade imbalance. The money sent out of the country eventually has to come back to purchase something from the United States. What's left to purchase? The United States doesn't manufacture much anymore. The only thing of value left in the United States are shares of stock owned by it's citizens.

In a round about way, the United States is being defeated in an economic war. Asia has no need to engage in a physical war with the US to take them over, they'll just buy them. I don't think that Asia planned it that way but they will certainly benefit from the situation. They would be wise to keep the price low for all televisions they send over.

Good point.

I believe television is the curse of a nation - especially America. TV will not only make you spend more, it will make you fat simply by sitting there for 3 hours, but also by the countless commercials for junk food. Never underestimate those guys on Madison avenue. They're smart enough to sell ice to eskimos and given enough commercial reps, you're gonna buy what they sell.

TV is bad enough for grown adults. But for kids, it's ten times worse. Smart people will get away from that idiot box and actually be constructive with their time. Really smart people won't even have a TV in their house.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 02-16-09 05:11 AM:

Quote from Specterx:
I think Americans don't save partly for cultural reasons (conspicuous consumption and ostentatious displays of wealth used to be prized in our culture; maybe not so much anymore). A documentary I was watching the other day interviewed this guy who was making over $100,000 a month for several years at the height of the credit bubble. Now his house has been seized, all cars sold off etc. etc. and he's forced to rent an apartment. Can you imagine somebody making >$1 million a year and being so stupid and shortsighted as to fritter away every cent of it? That's the world we lived in.

The media tends to overexagerate things and find the worst case scenarios. Anybody making 100k a month and not saving at least 10 of it is an idiot and deserves what he got. I have learned, like many others that things don’t always get better, sometimes they get worse, a lot worse.

The rich who have seen their lifesyles downgraded and portfolios lose 40% are stilling doing a lot better than the guy making $8 an hour who got his hours cut or maybe laid off. I don’t save $1000 a month anymore not because I don’t want to, it’s because I'm not making the money I used to.

Quote from Specterx:
I think the other big factor is that wages haven't kept up with inflation. It's just not possible to fulfill the average American's material wants (and 'wants' easily become 'needs') on the average American's salary. People make up the difference by borrowing and refuse to give up "necessities" like $100-a-month cable service. C'est la vie.

This is exactly the point I’ve been trying to make and people don’t want totalk about it. When the Man created the Federal Reserve, this was the means by which their wealth would continually increase while the workers wages are continuously stagnant. I think you might be confused as to which “necessities” people are borrowing to pay for. When my health insurance goes up $40 a month and I don’t get a raise to pay for it, I have 3 options. 1) Work more hours to pay for it or attempt to get a higher paying job through increased skills. 2) Borrow money to pay for it, or 3) Cancel the policy and go without health insurance. All these options benefit the rich at the expense of the poor/middle class. Do this year after year and you wake up and it’s 2008 and the economy is crumbling. BTW I don’t have cable, it’s a waste of money. $36 a month for Blockbuster and I get all the free rentals I want.

Quote from Specterx:
In your case, the problem is that pizza delivery is a zero-skills job. It doesn't require physical labor, specialized knowledge, or experience. If you want to earn more (in preparation for going out on your own) I strongly recommend learning a trade like plumbing, electrical work, or carpentry. These jobs require more physical labor, but also probably pay more than an entry-level desk job where you'll be competing against people with college degrees. It's also easy to go out on your own once you've got the skills down and a few years' experience.

Alternatively, have you considering being a policemen/sheriff's deputy, prison guard, fireman, something like that? I know a guy who made 60-70k a year as an independent mover. You won't get rich doing these jobs but you'll be able to save quite a bit by living cheaply.

I have already addressed this in the below post. The “zero skilled job” argument is just crap that people came up with to justify low wages. 50 years ago the creed was, “work and you deserve to eat.” Now it has turned into, “you don’t deserve to eat because we’ve deemed your job requires no skill.”

Still, nobody has been able to explain why pizza delivery used to pay so much and now it doesn’t. In another 5 years, those skilled jobs will be asking the same question. Why am I not making what I used to? I heard they are going to insource doctors from China and India now. I also saw how a routine doctors visit can now be done at Wal-Mart with a technician with a video camera. The doctor is somewhere else and looks at a screen and diagnosis it from there. Soon they’ll be outsourcing doctor’s visits. So soon doctors will be asking the same question. I wonder what the justification will be then. You gonna tell a doctor they have a no skill job?

http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showt...631#post2256631

BTW I found a big discrepancy in the forex market tonight. I tried it on my live account and it worked perfectly I got over 400 pips on 3 trades. Maybe I've finally found something.

Posted by Sam Mcgee on 11-22-11 08:48 PM:

Quote from Sam Mcgee:

I've written it here before, the reason that Americans spend too much is because of the amount of television that they watch. Look up any statistics for the hours of television and you'll see that Americans watch almost double the amount compared to any other county. Why do Americans watch so much TV? It's because most of the best programs are made for the largest market place, the United States. Other countries are not as interested in American TV because it isn't made for them.

I lived in the United States for a while about 20 years ago and that was the biggest difference I noticed, after dinner just about everyone was planted in front of the TV there.

The other thing that leads to excess consumption in the United States is that their mortgages are tax deductible. What happens is that as soon as some equity is built up in a home, people use that as a source of extra money to spend. In a round about way, the American government is subsidizing excess consumption with these tax deductions. The amount of money that the United States government has given up for these tax deductions is roughly the same amount that the government is in debt.

Consumption is good to build up an economy but when it gets excessive you end up with a trade imbalance. The money sent out of the country eventually has to come back to purchase something from the United States. What's left to purchase? The United States doesn't manufacture much anymore. The only thing of value left in the United States are shares of stock owned by it's citizens.

In a round about way, the United States is being defeated in an economic war. Asia has no need to engage in a physical war with the US to take them over, they'll just buy them. I don't think that Asia planned it that way but they will certainly benefit from the situation. They would be wise to keep the price low for all televisions they send over.

Finally here's the evidence:
http://www.businessinsider.com/watc...college-2011-11

__________________
There are strange things done 'neath the midnight sun
By the men who moil for gold

Posted by murray t turtle on 11-22-11 09:15 PM:

Quote from dave74:

Good point.

I believe television is the curse of a nation - especially America. TV will not only make you spend more, it will make you fat simply by sitting there for 3 hours, but also by the countless commercials for junk food. Never underestimate those guys on Madison avenue. They're smart enough to sell ice to eskimos and given enough commercial reps, you're gonna buy what they sell.

TV is bad enough for grown adults. But for kids, it's ten times worse. Smart people will get away from that idiot box and actually be constructive with their time. Really smart people won't even have a TV in their house.

===============
Good points;
Maybe thats why ,
they named it Eskimo Pie.

I heard on Christian radio recently;
TV time tends to encourage a lazy mind, if one watches enough of it. If one keeps a book handy, results may differ.

And not to play the blame game ;
but actually i think US A saved more when the ad agencys [for banks] did more savings ads

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murray t turtle,nickname,not an alias

Posted by RewriteQuran on 11-23-11 08:39 AM:

Unless USA aligns Immigrant & Non-immigrant Visas and Outsourcing to Caste system in India and Human Rights in China middle income Americans will be destroyed.
http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/...ights-abuse.htm
http://www.rediff.com/business/slid...ge/20110504.htm

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communal_Award

Posted by AKUMATOTENSHI on 11-23-11 03:29 PM:

Quote from Aaron Copland:

How would you feel if you worked all your life lived within your means? Saved a lot of money then lost it all in a failed bank, a bad fund manager.

Yes you are insured for 250k but what if you had 2 million in savings.

WELL WAKE UP! THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENING.

That is part of it. Alot of people have way too much trust in the wrong people. Scams are nothing new in human society the last mess with Alt A mortages and robo signing of loans and defaults shows what the system thinks of the average citizen. They are sheeple, fooder, plebs, and nobody will save them.
Alolt of people we lead down the primsrose path right into wealth destruction.
I elected not to by a house and I stand buy my decision. People are told it is a wealth building asset. If you take 100K and buy a house vs. buy 100K and buy 10 blocks of SPY. You will be ahead and more liquid by putting money into the SP500. A residence is a cost. People focus here in the states on all the upsides to home ownership. The state likes it and promotes it because it is a major source of revenue. Property tax,school tax, gargbage tax, water tax, etc.
The cost of home ownership are understated and sometimes not stated. Real purchasing power for people has dropped,incomes have dropped the cost of living is rising there is very little captial to put into reserves with this scenario. The media does help the issue by spinning the data to fit the agenda. If there is not another economic boom,reality will set in and is a vicious cycle in a stagflation economy.

All for One and Theft to All,

Akuma

Buy GOLD!!!

Posted by newwurldmn on 11-23-11 03:38 PM:

We don't save because we have access to credit and the ability to spend more. We have access to space to afford two cars, big houses filled with furniture, etc. And accumulating is a primal instinct.

If we didn't have access to credit (like in emerging markets) we would all be savers because we would have to pay for our stuff in cash.

And if we didn't have space to own two cars or a lot of furniture, then we would save more because we phyiscally couldn't spend. There is a limit to spending if you live in a 200 square foot studio.

Posted by Grandluxe on 11-23-11 04:01 PM:

Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from Debaser82:

I live in that pighole of a socialist europe where the government takes 50% of your salary, you don't get to work for your own pockets untill after the summer, and still people over here save more then 10% of their income.

What gives?

Is it because the FED has run a more inflationary course then the ECB eroding the purchasing power of the dollar causing people to search for alternatives?

Or is it the US spirit where people are always on the outlook for the next bubble to grow so they can hop on and become rich overnight?

Or is this how capitalism is supposed to work? If you can't cut it bad luck and good night see you in the souplines?

Because American culture is inherently individualistic, egocentric and based on temporary sensual self gratification, which is why most people would blow their paycheck on a holiday, flashy car, expensive clothes, ridiculous gadgets just for that moment of decadence with no thought of long term planning.

Look at steve jobs, he knew this very well, all his products are named I-something. The American psyche can be simply defined as "I,me,myself".

Posted by AKUMATOTENSHI on 11-23-11 04:38 PM:

Right on cue:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/45416482

Who is fooling who?

All for One and Theft to All,

Akuma

BUY DIAMONDS, GOLD AND IVORY!!!!

Posted by intradaybill on 11-23-11 04:58 PM:

If people save, then a lot of excess capital is created that causes imbalances, pushes down interest rates and creates bubbles. People should enjhoy life, spend a lot and just save for what they absolutely need.

Saving made sense when currencies were tied to a commodity. Now saving does not make sense that money is credit. The more you save the more credit is destroyed, i.e. when you save, money is destroyed and the economy goes down.

I guess two people here will understand this. One is trefoil.

"Savings" is a Marxist propaganda.

Posted by Ash1972 on 11-23-11 11:42 PM:

Saving is fundamentally about spending less than you earn. It is something you need to do to have any hope of succeeding at capitalism.

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Posted by Sikhinvestor on 11-24-11 12:03 AM:

To SandyDog

Hey Sandy,

I'll tell you my story, your complainning about working, dude from 19 to about 26, I am 2 years older than you, I saved up the equivalent of $150,000 working dead end jobs, living at home, working 2-3 jobs.

Dude, whats $25,000 thats nothing, if you want to get ahead, educate yourself in anything, start a business, work an extra job. You dont' get anything for nothing. Stop complaining and make it happen.

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urhomesold.net

Posted by Ash1972 on 11-24-11 02:11 AM:

Because.. saving is boring and spending is fun. Americans like to have fun. Cultures that actively promote self denial and/or delayed gratification tend to have people that are savers, e.g. India and China.

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Posted by Thermactor on 11-24-11 08:08 AM:

Re: Re: Why don't Americans save?

Quote from murray t turtle:

Then you have ladies that took $10,ooo out of FED insured bank, & goofed,put in in cracker box, accidently took cracker box to store for refund .......Ouch/pain.

Nice fictional scenario, I don't think that ever happened, ever.

Posted by Sandybestdog on 11-26-11 03:55 PM:

Re: To SandyDog

Quote from Sikhinvestor:
Hey Sandy,

I'll tell you my story, your complainning about working, dude from 19 to about 26, I am 2 years older than you, I saved up the equivalent of $150,000 working dead end jobs, living at home, working 2-3 jobs.

Dude, whats $25,000 thats nothing, if you want to get ahead, educate yourself in anything, start a business, work an extra job. You dont' get anything for nothing. Stop complaining and make it happen.

Well Congratulations! Mr Herman Cain, you are no doubt in the top 1% of people under 30.

I never complained about working. I'm sure most people who know me would classify me as a workaholic. If I could go to work on Thanksgiving, I probably would have.

You're right $25,000 is nothing. I have started businesses, invested, etc since I was 17. All of it failed. No problem. I'll start again. But even the dead end jobs are not paying much anymore. Even living at home and watching every dollar you spend, it's much harder now than it was 10 years ago. You need to have the ability to at least save a little in order to invest/start a business. The people under 35 are mostly screwed.

Actually, the past two years a lot has changed. I got a great job two years ago and have started making some good money. I bought a small townhouse this summer (saved about $20k over the past year). I think that there are only 2 other people under 30 that I know that own a house (own a mortgage I mean). This only happened because the real estate market crashed to more reasonable levels.

But my points remain the same. Nothing I have done in the past 2 years is any different than the previous. I worked just as hard then. It was really just luck. The job I have now really needs no more skills than my previous ones, just experience helps a little. I see so many other people under 30 that are barely getting by whereas I am OK now. I have not done anything more special than they, I am just a little more fortunate at this point in my life. I guess I'll try to make the most of it while I can.

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