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-- Russia Is Only Down 75 Percent YTD (http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?threadid=145614)
Posted by libertad on 11-21-08 01:15 AM:
Russia Is Only Down 75 Percent YTD
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/pa...d=topnav_2_3024
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libertad
Posted by GermanTrader on 11-21-08 01:22 AM:
Let Russia die.
__________________
Never argue with an idiot, people can't tell you apart.
Posted by axehawk on 11-21-08 01:52 AM:
Tim Seymour has been touting Russian stocks for over a year.
What a douche.
__________________
"The trader who tries to blame his losses on external events will never learn from his mistakes."
Posted by shortie on 11-21-08 01:54 AM:
Quote from GermanTrader:
Let Russia die.
it is russian winter, remember?
Posted by GermanTrader on 11-21-08 01:57 AM:
I have met hundred of Russians, and I have yet to meet one worthy of friendship and trust. Maybe it's just cultural, and maybe they feel the same way about westerners, but that is my experience.
Repeat, let Russia die.
__________________
Never argue with an idiot, people can't tell you apart.
Posted by IShopAtPublix on 11-21-08 01:58 AM:
Quote from GermanTrader:
Let Russia die.
Yeah and the resulting vacuum would be filled by china. Not a good proposition. Russia anchors a good chunk of (worthless) parts of the world. I would rather have China significantly weakened.
Posted by HGTrader on 11-21-08 02:30 AM:
In Russia, you don't play the market, the market plays you.
Posted by tu160 on 11-21-08 03:32 AM:
Quote from GermanTrader:
I have met hundred of Russians, and I have yet to meet one worthy of friendship and trust. Maybe it's just cultural, and maybe they feel the same way about westerners, but that is my experience.
Repeat, let Russia die.
have you managed to survive Stalingrad? amazing )))
ps
verpissen dich
Posted by HLB on 11-21-08 11:31 AM:
I'll be going long RSX calls when it will reach Sep 1998 levels (Russia's default).
What I don't get is: till recently Russia wasn't correlated with the oil or US equities and now it's correlated.
Damn Putin started war in Georgia to spike oil prices, but it didn't help.
HLB
Posted by zdreg on 11-21-08 11:47 AM:
Quote from HGTrader:
In Russia, you don't play the market, the market plays you.
have you invested directly in the russian market?
if yes answer please explain how.
Posted by Kicking on 11-21-08 11:59 AM:
I invested a small portion of my funds in a Eastern European fund heavily weighted in Russian stocks. It's been decimated.
I had great hopes for the future of the former eastern block countries and the relative strength up until summer was a good sign . I didn't have a clue. Lesson: don't invest on funnymentals and personal beliefs. I also got long MTL and rode it from the 50's to 5 , there's never been a decent pullback to sell . Since I am not completely stupid it was less than 3% of portfolio and I reduced after the Putin episode.
I guess I will never touch anything Russian again unless it's a lady or a gun.... even if I know only the gun is to be trusted.
__________________
"Nobody can catch all the fluctuations"
Reminiscences of a Stock Operator
Posted by gaj on 11-21-08 12:04 PM:
Quote from zdreg:
have you invested directly in the russian market?
if yes answer please explain how.
if i'm reading correctly, that was a take-off on yakov smirnov's jokes..
Posted by HLB on 11-21-08 12:04 PM:
I remember several year ago foregners weren't allowed to invest directly in Russian shares, only in ADRs / GDRs.
Then they had huge imbalances between ADR in US and original shares listed in Russia, for example Lookoil ADR had premium of +15-20 %%
Didn't checked what's the status today.
HLB
Posted by krazykarl on 11-21-08 03:22 PM:
Say what you will about Russia, but when there is a World War we've always fought with them and crushed pretty much everyone else on the Planet.
Seriously, Russia is good to keep afloat if for nothing but to call on when shit hits the fan. Their winters are almost as bad as ours in Detroit.... 
__________________
--
Posted by Mecro on 11-21-08 03:24 PM:
Quote from GermanTrader:
I have met hundred of Russians, and I have yet to meet one worthy of friendship and trust. Maybe it's just cultural, and maybe they feel the same way about westerners, but that is my experience.
Repeat, let Russia die.
Ahhh, you're just upset you got taken by a Russian golddigger.
Punk Bitch.
Posted by Mecro on 11-21-08 03:28 PM:
Quote from HGTrader:
In Russia, you don't play the market, the market plays you.
LOL!
My pops loves it, he is making a killing.
Posted by Imba on 11-21-08 03:31 PM:
Quote from zdreg:
have you invested directly in the russian market?
if yes answer please explain how.
Hmmm.... and whats you problem to invest onto it directly? Its way not so hard as you may think of it really. At least not much hrder then to open an account onto any US futures...
Im not a tax-breaker expert, but im absolutely sure, that if you want to invest any summ of money which is not a huuuge one for a retail trader ( like 5+ mln USD), its a easy one deal really.
And you wont need to pay 25% taxes in Russia, because your not a locale citizen. Ofc its quite iiligal, but still doable.
PS: Am speaking about direct accest to the both of russian markets, and not about some ADR and a-like stuff.
Posted by Fractals 'R Us on 11-21-08 03:33 PM:
Quote from GermanTrader:
I have met hundred of Russians, and I have yet to meet one worthy of friendship and trust. Maybe it's just cultural, and maybe they feel the same way about westerners, but that is my experience.
Repeat, let Russia die.
Charming, I'm sure people are seeking your company for advice and a great example of how to live.. NOT!!
Posted by GermanTrader on 11-21-08 03:38 PM:
Quote from tu160:
have you managed to survive Stalingrad? amazing )))
ps
verpissen dich
Nice invitation for your first post. Ask stock_trad3r, he seems to lean gay.
Welcome to ET, little one.__________________
Never argue with an idiot, people can't tell you apart.
Posted by GermanTrader on 11-21-08 03:39 PM:
Quote from Kicking:
I guess I will never touch anything Russian again unless it's a lady or a gun.... even if I know only the gun is to be trusted.
I keep hearing that about Russian girls... nice to look at but cold to the touch?__________________
Never argue with an idiot, people can't tell you apart.
Posted by ethos on 11-21-08 03:39 PM:
Quote from GermanTrader:
I have met hundred of Russians, and I have yet to meet one worthy of friendship and trust. Maybe it's just cultural, and maybe they feel the same way about westerners, but that is my experience.
Repeat, let Russia die.
I guess it's rather you who are not worthy for people of trust. So you mostly get to meet your kind.
Posted by Mecro on 11-21-08 03:45 PM:
Quote from Imba:
Hmmm.... and whats you problem to invest onto it directly? Its way not so hard as you may think of it really. At least not much hrder then to open an account onto any US futures...
Im not a tax-breaker expert, but im absolutely sure, that if you want to invest any summ of money which is not a huuuge one for a retail trader ( like 5+ mln USD), its a easy one deal really.
And you wont need to pay 25% taxes in Russia, because your not a locale citizen. Ofc its quite iiligal, but still doable.
PS: Am speaking about direct accest to the both of russian markets, and not about some ADR and a-like stuff.
There was and still is restricted foreigner participation. Quite a few brokers who can cater to foreigners but they don't offer the same flexibility as the locals have.
Only morons pay Russian taxes, and those rarely have the money to pay it.
Posted by Imba on 11-21-08 03:57 PM:
Quote from Mecro:
There was and still is restricted foreigner participation. Quite a few brokers who can cater to foreigners but they don't offer the same flexibility as the locals have.
Only morons pay Russian taxes, and those rarely have the money to pay it.
I know how its works here, you dont need to tell me :-)
But, who the hell forces you to register an account onto your own name? The easyes way... find a Russian person who will make it for you.
Ofc there is still some questions about trusfullness in that way, but they are also resolvable. Eletronic RSA keys... passwords... etc.
Second way. Open a firm in russia. DO nothing with it.(aka zero taxes), hire a "fake" director onto it (that persom might didnt even exist on the planet), register an trade account... and withdraw all profits onto some offshore zone.
So, to be short. There is really a bunch of ways to do it if you really need that. And they all only looks scarry and hard on da text.. but quite easy to do in RL.
The only question is only.. how much you really need it? And what for you need it :-)
PS: QUite interesting situation.. most stable-profit traders which at least i know move from russian market onto US-EU ones... and you want to move onto russian?
Posted by pavlov0032 on 11-21-08 03:58 PM:
Quote from GermanTrader:
Let Russia die.
F^&CK you NAZI!
let Germany Die slow death and you looser too!
You F&^%s still did not get over your guilt of starting WW2!
Posted by lachie74 on 11-21-08 03:58 PM:
Quote from GermanTrader:
I keep hearing that about Russian girls... nice to look at but cold to the touch?
Very true... Though to be fair I've only met strippers and hookers. Do their women do anything else?
Posted by pavlov0032 on 11-21-08 04:00 PM:
Quote from GermanTrader:
I keep hearing that about Russian girls... nice to look at but cold to the touch?
I keep hearing about German girls with liverwurst thighs.
My grandpa killed lots of you f^%$s, too bad he missed your grandpa!
Posted by GermanTrader on 11-21-08 04:18 PM:
Quote from ethos:
I guess it's rather you who are not worthy for people of trust. So you mostly get to meet your kind.
You assume things you do not know. No wonder you're stuck in the simulator. I have fried more Russians than you have met, and I loved every minute of it.
Ignored.
Quote from pavlov0032:
I keep hearing about German girls with liverwurst thighs.
My grandpa killed lots of you f^%$s, too bad he missed your grandpa!
Too bad for you that I am not German. I trade the DAX. Yet another papertrader who assumes instead of knowing shit that he posts about. Into the pit with your butt-buddy. Enjoy the mutual asswiping.
Second ignore for the AM. Next!__________________
Never argue with an idiot, people can't tell you apart.
Posted by pavlov0032 on 11-21-08 04:29 PM:
Quote from GermanTrader:
You assume things you do not know. No wonder you're stuck in the simulator. I have fried more Russians than you have met, and I loved every minute of it.
Ignored.
Too bad for you that I am not German. I trade the DAX. Yet another papertrader who assumes instead of knowing shit that he posts about. Into the pit with your butt-buddy. Enjoy the mutual asswiping.
Second ignore for the AM. Next!
take out your gerbel buddy out of your ass and stick you dax up in there!
Posted by scriabinop23 on 11-21-08 04:37 PM:
good old flame wars. nice.
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Posted by GermanTrader on 11-21-08 04:39 PM:
I enjoy seeing hairs of anger raised on the necks of those who claim to trade without emotion (those who ask for it, that is). It is excellent entertainment when Borsolino isn't trading (traders audio).
__________________
Never argue with an idiot, people can't tell you apart.
Posted by shortie on 11-21-08 04:40 PM:
Quote from GermanTrader:
Let Russia die.
i hope you are aware that some mods here are russian. they will report your ip to putin if asked to do so.
Posted by GermanTrader on 11-21-08 04:42 PM:
Quote from shortie:
i hope you are aware that some mods here are russian. they will report your ip to putin if asked to do so.
Bring it.
If they can navigate through multiple gateways and an IP changer across a community wifi, I'll buy them a shot of Vodka an then tell them to LET RUSSIA DIE.
Don't worry, be happy.
I like and respect all mods for what they do, but if a few mods cannot take cuts like this amidst the slew of cuts against Americans, they have no place in a global forum such as this, and have my permission to kiss my ass in the crack while I shit down their throats. Hope that answers your query of how I really feel about Russians who act like pricks. The Russian friends I have hate mother Russia and wish it would die a nuclear death. You be sure to let me know if you need more information. __________________
Never argue with an idiot, people can't tell you apart.
Posted by Cesko on 11-21-08 04:47 PM:
Quote from pavlov0032:
F^&CK you NAZI!
let Germany Die slow death and you looser too!
You F&^%s still did not get over your guilt of starting WW2!
RUSSIA IS DYING
They contract by 700,000 people every year. Good thing too. Fuck the scum.
Posted by Mecro on 11-21-08 04:53 PM:
Quote from GermanTrader:
I enjoy seeing hairs of anger raised on the necks of those who claim to trade without emotion (those who ask for it, that is).
At least they actually trade. As opposed to spamming their imaginary success & self-importance, you racist piece of shit.
Make sure you don't travel far outside your Bumblefuck trailer park.
Posted by Mecro on 11-21-08 04:54 PM:
Quote from GermanTrader:
The Russian friends I have hate mother Russia and wish it would die a nuclear death. You be sure to let me know if you need more information.
Stop lying, you don't have any friends. 900 number sex phone line operators don't count.
Posted by d08 on 11-21-08 04:56 PM:
Quote from pavlov0032:
F^&CK you NAZI!
let Germany Die slow death and you looser too!
You F&^%s still did not get over your guilt of starting WW2!
Now that's a real Russian for you. There are intelligent Russians but they are few and far between, they usually don't start a lot of shit. There are a lot of trash Russians who have emigrated. Personal experience, met thousands of Russians.
Germany has apologized for its wrongdoings, however Russians are still proud of their own own Hitler (Stalin) and I've never heard any apologies for Hiroshima/Nagasaki genocide on the US side. Sorry for going OT.
As for the Russian market - beware, when things are good there probably won't be problems getting the money out but if things get bad you might end up losing it all by some "special order" from Putin, that explains part of the 75% drop - the Russian market does not appear fundamentally secure anymore.
Posted by Mecro on 11-21-08 04:58 PM:
Quote from Imba:
PS: QUite interesting situation.. most stable-profit traders which at least i know move from russian market onto US-EU ones... and you want to move onto russian?
Uhm what? US-EU is like a ciesta comparing to emerging markets. Those who can't handle the heat go to US-EU and then get slowly chopped up.
The experienced traders have been shorting RTS since early summer. My dad has been talking about it since the start of the year, he smelled it coming.
Posted by d08 on 11-21-08 05:07 PM:
Quote from pavlov0032:
I keep hearing about German girls with liverwurst thighs.
My grandpa killed lots of you f^%$s, too bad he missed your grandpa!
Hmm.
WW2 Nazi Germany deaths 7,293,000
WW2 Soviet deaths 23,100,000
That's why you don't hear about "Russian efficiency".
Posted by dozu888 on 11-21-08 05:13 PM:
Quote from d08:
Hmm.
WW2 Nazi Germany deaths 7,293,000
WW2 Soviet deaths 23,100,000
That's why you don't hear about "Russian efficiency".
no wonder russian chicks are all so hot.... the ugly ones are all genetically selectively eliminated.__________________
Money CAN buy happiness
Posted by jem on 11-21-08 05:28 PM:
I thought I would comment about the apologies.
people do not have to apologize for for fighting back and ending a war.
It is a shame people die in war. The fault for those deaths lies with the side starting the war. Especially an unjust war.
Not many americans are stupid enough to apologize for ending a war started by the bombing pearl harbor.
Posted by Cesko on 11-21-08 05:58 PM:
Quote from d08:
Hmm.
WW2 Nazi Germany deaths 7,293,000
WW2 Soviet deaths 23,100,000
That's why you don't hear about "Russian efficiency".
WW1 German cost of killing one enemy soldier (average) $10,000(nineties $$)
Cost of killing a German soldier by enemies
$30,000.
LOOK AT THEM NOW.
Completely whipped and pussified nation.
Lazy beyond imagination. (Brother has some business there right now).
Viva socialism.
Posted by d08 on 11-21-08 06:41 PM:
Quote from jem:
I thought I would comment about the apologies.
people do not have to apologize for for fighting back and ending a war.
It is a shame people die in war. The fault for those deaths lies with the side starting the war. Especially an unjust war.
Not many americans are stupid enough to apologize for ending a war started by the bombing pearl harbor.
OK, you obviously don't know about history so I'll enlighten you.
Japan had surrendered before the bombs were dropped, the only discussion was about the conditions of surrender. Consider that it was an attack on civilians not an attack on a military target.
I wish Iraq would be technologically more advanced, the U.S. attacked Iraq (started a war) therefore Iraq has the right to drop a nuke on Houston and Los Angeles. This is all fine according to your logic. Considering how much unnecessary pain the U.S. has caused, my reaction to 9/11 is "so what, you had it coming" (if it happened as the US gov't says it did).
Posted by GermanTrader on 11-21-08 06:45 PM:
Quote from d08:
OK, you obviously don't know about history so I'll enlighten you.
Japan had surrendered before the bombs were dropped, the only discussion was about the conditions of surrender. Consider that it was an attack on civilians not an attack on a military target.
I wish Iraq would be technologically more advanced, the U.S. attacked Iraq (started a war) therefore Iraq has the right to drop a nuke on Houston and Los Angeles. This is all fine according to your logic. Considering how much unnecessary pain the U.S. has caused, my reaction to 9/11 is "so what, you had it coming" (if it happened as the US gov't says it did).
Waiting for you to post a link to the document authenticating your claim that the Japanese surrendered prior to Little Man and Fat Boy.__________________
Never argue with an idiot, people can't tell you apart.
Posted by d08 on 11-21-08 07:01 PM:
Quote from GermanTrader:
Waiting for you to post a link to the document authenticating your claim that the Japanese surrendered prior to Little Man and Fat Boy.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html
"In mid-April [1945] the [US] Joint Intelligence Committee reported that Japanese leaders were looking for a way to modify the surrender terms to end the war. The State Department was convinced the Emperor was actively seeking a way to stop the fighting."
"In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)
This memo showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms virtually identical to the ones ultimately accepted by the Americans at the formal surrender ceremony on September 2 -- that is, complete surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor."
Posted by GermanTrader on 11-21-08 07:06 PM:
Quote from d08:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html
"surrender overtures"
Doesn't fly. That piece tries to stretch comments into an official surrender, which never came pre-nuked Japan. Any one of our liberal Generals could have said things like that on their own, in Iraq. In fact, some in the military did make such overtures about what happened. Same thing in early-to-mid Vietnam. The commander of the Japanese armed forces never surrendered. Japanese failed to surrender until after they met both Little Man and Fat Boy. And even then, the military still did not surrender. Their Emperor did, on the deck of an American aircraft carrier.__________________
Never argue with an idiot, people can't tell you apart.
Posted by d08 on 11-21-08 07:15 PM:
That's like shooting someone who you've beaten to death because he can't mumble the words "I give up".
Posted by Kicking on 11-21-08 07:20 PM:
Quote from jem:
Not many americans are stupid enough to apologize for ending a war started by the bombing pearl harbor.
This is completely OT but I don't see how americans would be stupid for apologizing for the atomic bombs. This was most probably unnecessary but some scientists without conscience had built a bomb and then some politicians and the military wanted to try it on live humans. So that's what happened .
History is just politics anyway. I will venture to say that the truth is rarely told. Consider this : just as almost noone holds the US responsible for ushering the nuclear age and killing thousands of innoncent Japanese civilians, Bush and Blair and their clique will never be potrayed in history books as the war criminals and incompetent they are and they will never be held accountable for thousands of victims on both sides.__________________
"Nobody can catch all the fluctuations"
Reminiscences of a Stock Operator
Posted by jem on 11-21-08 09:58 PM:
Quote from Kicking:
This is completely OT but I don't see how americans would be stupid for apologizing for the atomic bombs. This was most probably unnecessary but some scientists without conscience had built a bomb and then some politicians and the military wanted to try it on live humans. So that's what happened .
History is just politics anyway. I will venture to say that the truth is rarely told. Consider this : just as almost noone holds the US responsible for ushering the nuclear age and killing thousands of innoncent Japanese civilians, Bush and Blair and their clique will never be potrayed in history books as the war criminals and incompetent they are and they will never be held accountable for thousands of victims on both sides.
They japs started the war - we ended - anyone who apologizes for ending that war that way is ignorant.
If you want to get into legal theory - you are allowed to step up force in the defense of life. They launched a navy at us killing a peace time navy on our homeland - essentially civilians. They opened the door for a massive attack on their homeland and thats what they got.
Posted by d08 on 11-21-08 10:33 PM:
Quote from jem:
They japs started the war - we ended - anyone who apologizes for ending that war that way is ignorant.
If you want to get into legal theory - you are allowed to step up force in the defense of life. They launched a navy at us killing a peace time navy on our homeland - essentially civilians. They opened the door for a massive attack on their homeland and thats what they got.
You're a bit thick aren't you?
Pearl Harbor was a harbor full of military equipment, it wasn't an attack on civilians. Basically you just agreed again that Iraq has the right to obliterate Houston and Los Angeles (for example) by nuclear means and the civilians killed would deserve what they get (since the U.S. is the aggressor).
Posted by jem on 11-21-08 11:27 PM:
Quote from d08:
You're a bit thick aren't you?
Pearl Harbor was a harbor full of military equipment, it wasn't an attack on civilians. Basically you just agreed again that Iraq has the right to obliterate Houston and Los Angeles (for example) by nuclear means and the civilians killed would deserve what they get (since the U.S. is the aggressor).
I can see that you are the type of person who has no understanding of international law or the reality of the situation. I suppose you get your arguments from nuevo pinko websites.
its funny that you could be so ignorant and so bombastic.
Someone less obtuse might have made some useful arguments and it might have been fun.
1. try thinking about what it means to be at peace.
2. try learning about international law and operating under international law or the color of international law.
Posted by d08 on 11-22-08 12:10 AM:
International law - that is the UN right? The US is currently ignoring every international law possible. I guess the rules only apply when the US gov't benefits, am I right? You might want to Google "double standards".
There was no imminent threat to the US (read the statements by the generals who were in the situation, not some politician who had very little real information) when the genocide in Nagasaki/Hiroshima happened.
Posted by IShopAtPublix on 11-22-08 12:49 AM:
Quote from jem:
They japs started the war - we ended - anyone who apologizes for ending that war that way is ignorant.
If you want to get into legal theory - you are allowed to step up force in the defense of life. They launched a navy at us killing a peace time navy on our homeland - essentially civilians. They opened the door for a massive attack on their homeland and thats what they got.
Look if a person is not naive he/she will realize FDR did everything he could to make Japan attack US. US was far from innocent in that regard.
Do you think it was a coincidence that all the aircraft carriers of the pacific fleet were conveniently away at a time of Pearl Harbor? NO it was not.
Truman nuked Japan to impress/intimidate Stalin. He even casually mentioned NUKES at the POTSDAM conference. Trouble for Truman was that Stalin already knew about the Manhattan project and infiltrated it with spies.
Posted by jem on 11-22-08 01:31 AM:
Quote from IShopAtPublix:
Look if a person is not naive he/she will realize FDR did everything he could to make Japan attack US. US was far from innocent in that regard.
Do you think it was a coincidence that all the aircraft carriers of the pacific fleet were conveniently away at a time of Pearl Harbor? NO it was not.
Truman nuked Japan to impress/intimidate Stalin. He even casually mentioned NUKES at the POTSDAM conference. Trouble for Truman was that Stalin already knew about the Manhattan project and infiltrated it with spies.
even if all the above was true - it does not change the fact that they attacked us at peace wiped out our fleet - left us vulnerable to an attack on our west coast and fought like hell every step of the way taking a tremendous amount of lives - and energy.
We had every right to bomb them with a really large bomb - if it could save our troops lives.
You pull a knife on a guy and stab him with it, maybe repeatedly - he pulls out a large gun and kills you. Was it his fault because he had just been showing off his new gun to his friends.
Come on let us all start thinking logically. I heard the same liberal revisionist history when I was in college also. It does not mean we have to go through life thinking like fairies.
Japan started the fricken war by bombing and killing our navy on our homeland. There were people on those ships. They killed 10s of thousands if not hundreds of thousands more during a war they started.
I think they should apologize again - not us.
Posted by IShopAtPublix on 11-22-08 01:54 AM:
Quote from jem:
even if all the above was true - it does not change the fact that they attacked us at peace wiped out our fleet - left us vulnerable to an attack on our west coast and fought like hell every step of the way taking a tremendous amount of lives - and energy.
We had every right to bomb them with a really large bomb - if it could save our troops lives.
You pull a knife on a guy and stab him with it, maybe repeatedly - he pulls out a large gun and kills you. Was it his fault because he had just been showing off his new gun to his friends.
Come on let us all start thinking logically. I heard the same liberal revisionist history when I was in college also. It does not mean we have to go through life thinking like fairies.
Japan started the fricken war by bombing and killing our navy on our homeland. There were people on those ships. They killed 10s of thousands if not hundreds of thousands more during a war they started.
I think they should apologize again - not us.
There is no liberal revisionist history there is something called a "pretext" and not being naive.
Now read this and grow a brain:
"The Tripartite Pact, war with China, increasing militarization and Japan's withdrawal from the League of Nations eventually led the U.S. to embargo scrap metal and gasoline shipments to Japan and to constrain its foreign policy actions and close the Panama Canal to Japanese shipping. In 1941, Japan moved into northern IndoChina.[3] The U.S. responded by freezing Japan's assets in the U.S. and embargoing all oil exports to Japan.[4] Oil was Japan's most crucial imported resource; more than 80 percent of Japan's oil imports at the time came from the United States[5] To secure oil supplies, and other resources, Japanese planners had long been looking south, especially the Dutch East Indies. The Navy was certain any attempt to seize this region would bring the U.S. into the war and was reluctant to agree with other factions' plans for invasion. The complete US oil embargo changed to the Naval view to support of expansion toward support for an invasion of the Dutch East Indies and seizure of its oil fields. In August 1941, Japanese Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoe proposed a summit with President Roosevelt to discuss differences. Roosevelt replied Japan must leave China before a summit meeting could be held"
Key points: US FROZE ALL Japanese assets in US (that is a belligerent act in and of itself) stopped all shipments of OIL to Japan, and started demanding that Japan leave China. Plus Roosevelt positioned the fleet in hawaii to act as a "restraint" on Japan.
As a general rule - if something has a lot of patriotism attached to it, take it with a grain of salt. It is so cool to think of the "dastardly" attack on Pearl Harbor but fact of the matter is Roosevelt knew full well what he was doing when he put US on a collision course with Japan.
Posted by SWINGTRADER77 on 11-22-08 02:52 AM:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g57WZ4zvHkI
The chinese- and the English
Posted by jem on 11-22-08 03:14 AM:
Quote from IShopAtPublix:
There is no liberal revisionist history there is something called a "pretext" and not being naive.
Now read this and grow a brain:
"The Tripartite Pact, war with China, increasing militarization and Japan's withdrawal from the League of Nations eventually led the U.S. to embargo scrap metal and gasoline shipments to Japan and to constrain its foreign policy actions and close the Panama Canal to Japanese shipping. In 1941, Japan moved into northern IndoChina.[3] The U.S. responded by freezing Japan's assets in the U.S. and embargoing all oil exports to Japan.[4] Oil was Japan's most crucial imported resource; more than 80 percent of Japan's oil imports at the time came from the United States[5] To secure oil supplies, and other resources, Japanese planners had long been looking south, especially the Dutch East Indies. The Navy was certain any attempt to seize this region would bring the U.S. into the war and was reluctant to agree with other factions' plans for invasion. The complete US oil embargo changed to the Naval view to support of expansion toward support for an invasion of the Dutch East Indies and seizure of its oil fields. In August 1941, Japanese Prime Minister Fumimaro Konoe proposed a summit with President Roosevelt to discuss differences. Roosevelt replied Japan must leave China before a summit meeting could be held"
Key points: US FROZE ALL Japanese assets in US (that is a belligerent act in and of itself) stopped all shipments of OIL to Japan, and started demanding that Japan leave China. Plus Roosevelt positioned the fleet in hawaii to act as a "restraint" on Japan.
As a general rule - if something has a lot of patriotism attached to it, take it with a grain of salt. It is so cool to think of the "dastardly" attack on Pearl Harbor but fact of the matter is Roosevelt knew full well what he was doing when he put US on a collision course with Japan.
and your point would have to be this justifies pearl harbor... is that what you think.... if so then you should have no problem with us dropping a nuke.
either way you are wrong.
This argument is like saying that we should excuse the guy who stabbed you in the alley because his mom was drank when he was a kid.
Posted by d08 on 11-22-08 03:49 AM:
Quote from jem:
We had every right to bomb them with a really large bomb - if it could save our troops lives.
So killing civilians is okay to save soldiers lives? wow, let's return to the middle ages while we're at it. The military importance of the two cities was low so it can only be concluded it was directed against the people.
A nuclear bomb isn't anything like a "large bomb" just FYI, I guess the 30something civilian in Hiroshima deserves to die from cancer caused by the radiation in 2008 because of a war maneuver in 1945 (30 years before being born).
PS. While I'm liberal on most issues I'm generally not anti-US. Anyway, people resort to designating group names "left-wing", "right-wing", "liberal" etc. when the arguments fail.
Posted by jem on 11-22-08 07:28 AM:
Quote from d08:
So killing civilians is okay to save soldiers lives? wow, let's return to the middle ages while we're at it. The military importance of the two cities was low so it can only be concluded it was directed against the people.
A nuclear bomb isn't anything like a "large bomb" just FYI, I guess the 30something civilian in Hiroshima deserves to die from cancer caused by the radiation in 2008 because of a war maneuver in 1945 (30 years before being born).
PS. While I'm liberal on most issues I'm generally not anti-US. Anyway, people resort to designating group names "left-wing", "right-wing", "liberal" etc. when the arguments fail.
The answer to your question is yes.
We were justified in doing what it took to end the killing of our troops and the threat to the west coast of the U.S.
There is nothing wrong about placing labels on people's schoola of thought if the labels are accurate. In fact it is liberals who frequently make the argument it is not fair to call someone a modern liberal. More than a few of the t.a.s working for my professors were hard core socialists. (this was back in the 80s in D.C.) You propose I can't call someone a socialist who advocated the take over of private industry?
Your argument has a little more traction now because of all the fake conservatives that infected the republican party - but humans communicate and think by creating associations. I will not let my associations be questioned by someone saying hah you are labeling. If you dispute my labels use fact not cheap devices.
The fact of the matter is you are advocating an apology is necessary for ending a war with two bombs. Your arguments were weak and based on revisionist history which lack support. In end I doubt you even believe it would have been better to let or even chance a continued deadly conflict. How many more dead troops would you have tolerated. If the west coast of the u.s. was attacked would that have been sufficient to merit an atomic bombing. Why should we have had to risk our troops and civilians lives to satisfy you . Basically you have no real argument. Just about of feelings based on conjecture.
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