Andre (Apr 11, 2003 4:33:16 PM)
Takeshi Saimoto moved out of his parents house in Japan and to
the US when he was just 15. Always on the move, rather than being
moored in high school, he took the GED and went to college. He
was first exposed to trading several years later when his father
in Japan asked him to do research different trading methodologies.
Andre (Apr 11, 2003 4:33:33 PM)
Though unsuccessful in his first attempts at trading, he started
studying, going through all of Gann's recommended reading along
with any topic he found relevant. Because of the large amount
of reading, he picked up speed-reading skills through Evylin Wood
Speed Reading seminar. This helped him understand mental awareness
of perception.
Andre (Apr 11, 2003 4:33:58 PM)
At 22, after a few broker and sales positions, he got himself
into a prop firm trading a basket of stocks using a system. He
soon moved to Chicago to work on the institutional side. Last
year, he left that firm and is currently trading for himself.
Andre (Apr 11, 2003 4:34:50 PM)
Takeshi has already put quite a lot of effort into this chat in
his companion thread found here: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16058.
Takeshi offered to do this chat because he think's Gann is misunderstood.
He contends it's really mechanical.
Andre (Apr 11, 2003 4:35:21 PM)
Takeshi? Thanks for join us today. I look forward to hearing your
ideas and interpretations of Gann.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:36:02 PM)
Thanks Andre
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:36:12 PM)
Hi, my name is Takeshi Saimoto aka WDGann in ET. After writing
a joke about myself doing a chat, Andre approach me to do a chat.
I'm not really sure if the topic really helps people's trade but
I'd like to start the chat about how I lost my virginity. I really
don't want to give out her name but she was a classmate in High
School. We took English and US History together. We had common
friends and actually her girlfriend and my buddy was going out
at the time. Because I was single and she was too, we got hooked
up. We were somewhat like a good friend before that so, it was
like a little extension of the initial friendship.... Well, anyways...
as a horny High school Freshman, I started getting tingles between
my legs and started to give her a more intimate hugs. She had
small cans, she's a cute Asian...
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:36:41 PM)
Sorry, wrong script
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:36:52 PM)
Well, I really would like to make the chat easier for me by asking
for a favor for people asking questions. I'd like to know how
well you understand Gann... The reason is because based on the
competency of the trader's skill, the answer changes. For example,
someone might ask, "How do you draw Gann Angles?" This
is too broad for me to answer in the chat... I can go on writing
a 20 page report on it if I'd like to. Or I can say, "I look
at the charts, then use the Sq. of Odd, Hexagon, and 360 degree
Master chart along with the Sq. of 9 and 12." This is going
to be too broad of an answer. Just how a training coach in sports
teaches clients in the professional level and elementary level
differently, I would like to ask you for your cooperation. So
I might ask you a question back to figure out the best answer
for the individual's question.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:38:27 PM)
Another point is, I hope you read the FAQ in the Announcement
section... I think you'll notice that a lot the questions are
more a personal preferences rather than the theory in itself,
so I just might say, "It depends"... and try to elaborate
on why, if it's possible. Also, because Gann-type Chats (or any
chat) tends to attract spammers from vendors and brokers so please
report them to Baron, Andre or me (Me first please... he he he)
for any suspective spammers... I will answer most questions from
a trader's perspective most of the time so please expect a very
offensive answer for stupid questions... Well, let me start up
by saying that Gann is BS. It doesn't help you make money trading
the markets or make you trade better. It's just like any other
analysis technique out there. It's more of a over-complicated
analysis technique that takes time to reach a level of competency.
If you are a beginning trader, don't even try going into Gann.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:38:44 PM)
Let me start up by saying that Gann is BS. It doesn't help you
make money trading the markets or make you trade better. It's
just like any other analysis technique out there. It's more of
a over-complicated analysis technique that takes time to reach
a level of competency. If you are a beginning trader, don't even
try going into Gann, it's BS... I use it because I was stupid
believing that there's a holy grail. By the time I understood
that fact, I was a Gann trader... If I had to re-do my career,
I'll use some analysis and become good at that... Questions?
bobcathy1 (Apr 11, 2003 4:39:12 PM)
then tell us about your trades today, and how you set your indicators.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:39:40 PM)
I traded the open using intuition and the range after that sucked
so I didn't trade the rest of the day
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:40:04 PM)
My indicators are a blank chart.... I use more of a candle like
pattern
bobcathy1 (Apr 11, 2003 4:40:15 PM)
On your charts, how did you express the the gann numbers? Horizontal
Lines on the charts or moving averages?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:40:30 PM)
For my Gann, the top of the day went through the Gann Angle and
came back so I went short
bobcathy1 (Apr 11, 2003 4:40:48 PM)
My experience is nil. I am just curious and wanted to add it to
my trading.
Brice (Apr 11, 2003 4:41:08 PM)
where was that angle drawn from?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:41:48 PM)
Opening price for today
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:42:21 PM)
I look at any gap as top as bottom... just a personal preference,
not really an original Gann stuff
pprib (Apr 11, 2003 4:42:31 PM)
I started to study gann related books, and I'm having problems
understanding the concept of squaring price and time. For example
a 45 degree means an advance of 1 point for every day (or week
or month), but 1 point move isn't the same in a stock priced at
5, other priced at 50 or and index at 8000. How to scaling properly
a chart?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:43:07 PM)
45 degrees are more from 45 degrees in the Master charts... I
take the 45 degree in the master charts and then use that as 1x1
angle. How to scale a chart is very hard...
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:44:19 PM)
When I started used tops and bottoms prices. Then I started using
Gann Wheel. Then I started using other Master Charts.
Brice (Apr 11, 2003 4:45:03 PM)
You mean a 45^ up-angle from today's open, and when it broke,
you shorted?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:45:27 PM)
Not the 1x1 angle, 3x1 angle.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:45:45 PM)
My decision is 1/2 discretionary and 1/2 chart pattern, especially
in the intraday... I hope to do a more thorough Gann Analysis
but can't do it so well, especially in the intraday basis.
bobcathy1 (Apr 11, 2003 4:46:04 PM)
The price at 9:30am EST or at 4:45pm EST do you consider the open?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:46:39 PM)
I don't use After hour data...
FienyxTrader (Apr 11, 2003 4:46:47 PM)
Do you find Gann useful in prediction Time turns ?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:47:11 PM)
Yes and no... as I said, there's personal preference.... I wait
for the chart pattern to occur, confirming that time or price
setup.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:47:32 PM)
Trading and Analysis is a totally but similar matter
losloslos (Apr 11, 2003 4:47:45 PM)
Does it make sense to use a parallel of a gannline to establish
a trendchannel?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:47:57 PM)
Yes, definitely. I use a lot of trendlines and see how they relate
to Gann
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:48:33 PM)
But I don't keep the lines there... just at spots.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:49:02 PM)
Also, Channelling lines are needed for Gann Analysis in gettting
tops or bottoms.
stefanoc (Apr 11, 2003 4:49:07 PM)
What type of trading do you prefer, failure swings or breakout?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:49:34 PM)
Trading I prefer... swing and trend following... contrarian entry
close to top or bottom.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:49:55 PM)
Cutting losses short and letting it ride
losloslos (Apr 11, 2003 4:50:06 PM)
If Gann is mechanically, what do you think about fibs?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:50:21 PM)
Fibs are BS... but it works... LOL
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:50:33 PM)
Gann is BS... but it works for me
Guest (Apr 11, 2003 4:50:37 PM)
I am confused if Gann doesnt work, how come you still using it!?
Andre (Apr 11, 2003 4:50:43 PM)
Ok. We have you on as a guest, you use it, but say it doesn't
work. Why do you use it then? What kind of edge does Gann give
you? What makes it mechanical, then?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:52:12 PM)
What makes it mechanical? The indicator in itself... the decision
of buying and selling is a personal preference because of how
you combine the specific setups.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:52:19 PM)
Setups can be mechanical.
apig (Apr 11, 2003 4:52:14 PM)
I just poped in but let me point out that the Gann 8 (deviding
by 8) are fib lines with two extra lines and Gann has one living
student left Joe Rondinone.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:53:01 PM)
I'm not sure if there's a resemblance in 8th especially with Rondinone...
bobcathy1 (Apr 11, 2003 4:53:23 PM)
Do you plot your own lines? Or use the fan that is in the drawing
tools, or a canned strategy?
Brice (Apr 11, 2003 4:54:20 PM)
Do you run numbers off the wheel from intraday swings for next-day
trades?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:54:22 PM)
No, I have the lines coded
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:54:38 PM)
No
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:54:47 PM)
They don't last so long, but last for the day
schulingkamp (Apr 11, 2003 4:54:58 PM)
I think i read -if I'm not mistaken- that you use only 4 charts
to trade?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:55:26 PM)
The daily prep. of Gann Resistance of the day is taken from my
daily charts... they tend to be stronger.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:56:42 PM)
Yes, I keep 4 charts on my computer, 2 with intraday chart that
has Gann Angles on...
Andre (Apr 11, 2003 4:56:53 PM)
Folks, I'm gonig to give WD Gann a few minutes to catch up.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:57:28 PM)
What I look for in these are a combination of strength and resistance.
I relate them with the actual market's chart pattern from blank
charts.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:58:26 PM)
Strength and resistance is taken from where the market is at relative
to the angles, like is it above or below some line like 1x1...?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:58:49 PM)
Resistance is more from the angle condition, like where the angle
crosses, time periodicity
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 4:59:31 PM)
Time periodicity with where the angle actually crosses at and
etc.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:00:10 PM)
/ga
Andre (Apr 11, 2003 5:00:23 PM)
Ok, that's my singnal folks.
MarkoFibo (Apr 11, 2003 5:00:32 PM)
I was once taught to use the first 30 min. candle of the day hi
and lo and then square that range on a 5 min chart from the hi
and lo. With gann lines 1x1 1x2 1x4, and then to trade the rest
of the day using these lines. Does this seem valid to you ?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:01:14 PM)
I think so... it's like a combination of Crabel material and Gann?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:01:49 PM)
I think the thought is rather than using a stretch, you're using
Gann figures for entry... (I think I'm correct here.) ...I would
look at where the angle crosses with opening price (especially
in a gap) and see the strength of the angles
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:03:36 PM)
But this depends on the strength of the opening gap top and bottom...
I wouldn't recommend just using that. /ga
PoundTheRock (Apr 11, 2003 5:04:10 PM)
Do you consider Gann to be a methodology like Drummond Geometry,
and did you discard Drummond in favor of Gann, or use both?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:04:39 PM)
Sorry, I haven't looked in the Drummond Geometry. /ga
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:06:01 PM)
All this typing and thinking doesn't allow me to joke around...
gawd...
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:06:13 PM)
So how is everyone?
Andre (Apr 11, 2003 5:06:23 PM)
Nope... this is serious stuff!
Andre (Apr 11, 2003 5:06:53 PM)
WD Gann on ET here, has a great sense of humor. Perhaps after
the chat, we'll get to see more of it.
Andre (Apr 11, 2003 5:08:05 PM)
There are several on time frame here:
Brice (Apr 11, 2003 5:08:11 PM)
What is your favorite time frame to draw the lines with?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:08:26 PM)
Weekly... it just works well. I usually do most of the hardcore
Gann stuff on there but it doesn't fit my trading time frame.
Also, my research in Gann comes from the Weekly charts. /ga
lingo480 (Apr 11, 2003 5:08:54 PM)
Is Gann analysis applicable to any chart? ie stox, futures, currencies
etc.?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:10:17 PM)
Lingo... yes... it's how you pitch the charts.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:10:43 PM)
But with currency, there seems to be problem with data, you don't
get to see all of the transaction occuring. /ga
apig (Apr 11, 2003 5:11:25 PM)
Reference Gann: The market moves from highs to lows to highs today
the short was at 9:51 the market moved to a low at 1:56 with a
20 point move for the E mini this is one gann tool that is easy
to trade.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:13:31 PM)
I'm sure it was... what do you want me elaborate on that?
apig (Apr 11, 2003 5:13:54 PM)
Have you tried just using that tool alone?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:14:12 PM)
???? What tool????
apig (Apr 11, 2003 5:14:29 PM)
The Gann 8, dividing the chart real time into 8 horz lines.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:14:53 PM)
Oh... the 1/8 resistance level.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:15:26 PM)
1/8 resistance is a hard topic. Reason is...
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:16:04 PM)
First, the prices don't actually react to the 1/8 too much...
it's more of how the get the signigicant basis. The basics for
the 1/8th division for me comes from squareing the charts
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:17:02 PM)
Like what Gann says, Square of High, Low, and Range... Angles
cross at these levels when you draw them.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:17:54 PM)
I look at more of the angles than the Horizontal aspect but I
don't ignore it. /ga
schulingkamp (Apr 11, 2003 5:20:13 PM)
Rather than asking for any specific question, or note that Gann
is bs, perhaps it would be helpful to all here if you noted just
a list of key points that youve found to be helpful to trading
that you've gleaned through your studies of gann etc...?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:20:29 PM)
Trading and Gann...
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:20:34 PM)
hrmm...
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:21:02 PM)
First, is the way I approach the market... it's more of a perceptional
thing but also with the research. One key point is the importance
of time. There are cycles in the market and after seeing them
in Gann Analysis, I tend to see when to get in the market. /ga
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:22:22 PM)
Actually, I have a question from the FAQ that I would like to
answer
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:22:31 PM)
It's the question about Angles and Cycle.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:23:04 PM)
First, Angles are just a proportion in both time and price. The
proportion is taken in different ways like trial and error fitting
angles, some technical pattern like snap back, Master Charts using
natural proportions and so forth.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:25:05 PM)
The proportion actually makes the charts give a square which can
become a basis of getting the time factor.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:26:22 PM)
Time factor meaning not only the cycles but the periodicity that
is created by the cycle in itself.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:27:26 PM)
Taking the periodicity... for example in the Sq. of Range... the
angles crossing in recurring time based on the time between top
and bottom.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:28:26 PM)
Looking into the strength of the market and where it relates to
the angles, allows you to get a clearer view of the time. /ga
Andre (Apr 11, 2003 5:29:04 PM)
Folks, before I got booted offline, we had several questions about
reading material. Takeshi has addressed this in his thread here
on ET: http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16058&highlight=Gann+chat
Andre (Apr 11, 2003 5:29:28 PM)
However, maybe you can address it here too. In regards to recommended
reading, you perfer the original source?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:29:56 PM)
Correct. Most of my studies are from Gann's original material.
Like everyone I got stuck with the material so I bought some books
by others that were written about Gann like Gann made Easy (Honestly,
it's worthless piece of %$#@.) Read the FAQ.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:30:12 PM)
Andre... can we wrap up... the moderation... I think I'll answer
better with open chat...I'll just keep on going...
Andre (Apr 11, 2003 5:30:19 PM)
Sure. An with that, we'll wrap up the formal portion of the chat,
folks.
Andre (Apr 11, 2003 5:30:43 PM)
We will have a log posted this weekend if you can't stay for the
whole chat, get booted off and miss part of it or want to share
it with another trader. You'll find it here: http://www.elitetrader.com/ch/index.cfm
Please feel free to stay and chat.
Andre (Apr 11, 2003 5:31:19 PM)
Takeshi... thanks for taking the time out today to chat with us!
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:31:23 PM)
Thankyou.
MarkoFibo (Apr 11, 2003 5:31:53 PM)
Is it true that price is attracted to the 1x1?
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 5:31:56 PM)
I'm glad you're wanting some "advanced" questions: I'd
like your comment on using a fixed square (ala Murrey Math) vs
a sqare based on (High - Low)*.125
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:32:13 PM)
OK, with the 1x1... the market is never attracted to anything.
It moves it's way, I think, and we are just trying to find the
tendency... the market comes first, then Gann.
PuffyGums (Apr 11, 2003 5:32:50 PM)
WD Gann, does Gann analysis presume a squaring of price? I mean
is a power law type of rise implicit in Gann analysis.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:33:39 PM)
1/8th of a square... right.... personally I think 1/2, 1/4, is
more important.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:34:38 PM)
Puffy, yes, Squaring the price is very important... Actually,
Square Rooting is too.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:35:06 PM)
It's the basis thought for the Square of Odd and Even and the
proportion taken from them are extremely important. Like the 45
degree division from the Sq. of Odd and Even. It's a 1/8 proportion
but placed at the 45 degree position
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 5:36:18 PM)
It seems that the square size, in conjunction with the total number
of bars in consideration, are the key factors. Looking through
"Profits in Commodities" it seems that Gann's primary
concentrataion was on a quarter (13 week, 64 day) cycle. However,
also considering that our universe is a proportional system, wouldn't
it also follow that fractal theory would pre-determine any sized
square from the calculation of one.
PuffyGums (Apr 11, 2003 5:36:22 PM)
Psychologically people are sensitive to changes in the square
of price, not a straight line rise.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:36:34 PM)
I think it's matter of Sacred Geometry. Greeks thought that the
beauty can be geometricized... they came up with Square Root proportion
from that... because Nature is the Highest form of beauty.
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 5:36:54 PM)
So wouldn't it follow that an intraday square could be derived
by simply calculating a quarterly square and reducing it by factors
of 2?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:37:00 PM)
Maceo, You've gotta consider that there is a time and price relation...
you can't take one and take the other out.
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 5:37:18 PM)
But time will determine price since there is a fixed hi low in
a given time
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:37:29 PM)
You can't separate them... Time Squared... Price Squared should
be and is taken the same way.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:37:50 PM)
Gann, do you use the physical wheel or a program ?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:37:58 PM)
One usage of the Gann Wheel is backtracing the Price and Time
factor. I use both.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:38:35 PM)
Gann is a very proportionating technique
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:38:39 PM)
Yes.
FishSauce (Apr 11, 2003 5:38:47 PM)
I agree.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:38:52 PM)
Did you buy or create your wheel program?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:40:09 PM)
I wrote my own wheel on a big chart and I use computer... computer(excel)
for Wheel that starts at low price, paper written wheel for natural
that starts at 1.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:41:19 PM)
ok, thank you
FishSauce (Apr 11, 2003 5:40:02 PM)
I want to get your input on EMH?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:41:26 PM)
Fish, what's EMH?
FishSauce (Apr 11, 2003 5:41:28 PM)
In your introduction, you alluded to the fact that if you were
to start all over again: Gann wouldnt be your choice of methodology.
FishSauce (Apr 11, 2003 5:41:37 PM)
Efficient Market Hypothesis
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:41:43 PM)
Yes, as a trader...
FishSauce (Apr 11, 2003 5:41:49 PM)
interesting
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:42:11 PM)
I know traders who doesn't know anything about or have a specific
market perception that makes more money and trades better
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:42:12 PM)
There is a major difference between analsysis and trading analysis.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:42:40 PM)
Yes, surf, Gann Theory is Analysis.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:42:50 PM)
Yes.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:42:51 PM)
Not trading... which I am not as well as I want to be. I make
stupid mistakes all the time trading.
FishSauce (Apr 11, 2003 5:43:16 PM)
In your opinion, is Gann preferable to other systems? why or why?
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 5:43:20 PM)
But doesn't Gann pre-suppose a defined quantifiable, predictive
even, methodology?
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:43:24 PM)
This is why the large banks employ traders and analysts
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:43:38 PM)
Oh... I didn't have time to answer that...
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:44:03 PM)
OK, I'm sure most of Gann Analysis tools can be mechanical. It's
a number games, in a sense and that can be implemented in a computer
code in some way. But the conclusion of the indications, which
would be Buying and Selling cannot.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:45:16 PM)
The execution of said analysis is trading.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:45:23 PM)
I have a code that take all crossing of Angles... but it doesn't
give enough to give me a trading opportunity. Though, coding the
analysis can make my analysis more stable and consistant
Wolf (Apr 11, 2003 5:46:34 PM)
Then what does Gann give you? Verification?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:46:36 PM)
That's my sense of mechanical.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:47:01 PM)
Gann gives you an overall concept or filter for viewing the market,
(in my opinion).
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:47:07 PM)
Wolf, it gives me a trigger to trade... a basis and bias for me
to trade.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:47:22 PM)
Yes, Surf.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:47:29 PM)
I also reduce it to a trigger level.
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 5:47:34 PM)
Quantum theory presents the idea that we have a probability map,
where an electron, for example, may be. Market prices are finite,
in that there are phyical limits to how far up and down they can
go. Shouldn't Gann theory give us an opportunity to mechanically
discard potential price moves to an exact number?
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:47:43 PM)
But that is not common Gann.
Wolf (Apr 11, 2003 5:47:52 PM)
But it works for a single equity right?
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:47:58 PM)
No.
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 5:48:01 PM)
I think I typed that too fast...
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:48:05 PM)
Maceo, yes and no. How should I put it...
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:48:08 PM)
Not in my experience, quauntum theory applies to group(index)
probabilitites. And in my view so does Gann.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:48:43 PM)
It's how we approach science as a usage with trading.
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 5:49:27 PM)
But think of this: All market prices reflect the price a group
is willing to pay for it. So any traded item will be the representation
of groups, some larger, some smaller.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:49:43 PM)
That is one way to look at it. But the group is focused on one
object, wherein the index is a group of objects.
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 5:50:18 PM)
If I were going to give you the representation of an electron
cloud, for example, that is the representation for a single packet
of energy.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:50:41 PM)
I don't want to use this but I think it's more of macro and microcosm
view... like fractals.
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 5:50:59 PM)
That is what I commented on above.
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 5:51:15 PM)
If it is a fractal that implies that all squares can be derived
from one.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:51:18 PM)
Yes...
Wolf (Apr 11, 2003 5:51:52 PM)
...so it validates your specific equity indicators only grossly,
being your equity is a member of a sector
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:52:04 PM)
Yes and no...
FishSauce (Apr 11, 2003 5:52:06 PM)
In terms of profitability, how much do you attribute to Gann and
how much to cut-loss/profit-run?
Wolf (Apr 11, 2003 5:52:13 PM)
...What is the Gann data?
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 5:52:36 PM)
One method, although complex, would be to determine the impact
of that one entity on the index and trade the entity based on
it's impact; given a chosen index strategy.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:53:03 PM)
That can and is done via weighting, tradermaceo.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:53:18 PM)
Maceo, you're questions are much like "Why Gann works..."
I really can't say but only elaborate it theoretically. I can
say... Sacred Geometry but it has levels of the objective
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 5:53:31 PM)
Well, partly. I'm a physicist by traing so I think in terms of
absolutely quantified data.
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 5:53:41 PM)
obviously I can't spell, however.
Wolf (Apr 11, 2003 5:53:51 PM)
...so you need to have whole sector's or the markets price movement?
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:54:07 PM)
That is a personal choice, I choose to use Gann and estoeric techniques
with indexes only.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:54:49 PM)
Hold on... I'm reading Wolf's question...
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:55:10 PM)
OK, I get it...
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:55:45 PM)
How should I start... Synchronicity... Mass Psychological Basis...
Hrmmm
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:55:52 PM)
The question is, can one apply physical laws and events to price
movement ? accelleration, etc ???? they appear to be corelated
but it may be illusionary.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:56:28 PM)
Wolf, they all work together... they are relative. It's astrological
influence... LOL... the question is too broad
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:56:51 PM)
If one can, everything is truly tied together hence the work of
Gann, et al.
bobcathy1 (Apr 11, 2003 5:57:28 PM)
Hmmmm...this sounds like you need an indepth study of his theories
in order to use Gann. And an advanced degree in Math. Not something
one can use easily.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:57:41 PM)
Somewhat becoming scientific... where I really don't know as much...
let's stick to his theory... I know much about it.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:58:08 PM)
I think you just need a broad concept of what it is... and then
it comes to how you relate it.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:58:22 PM)
Great point, Gann.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:58:29 PM)
It's like a analogical process
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 5:58:44 PM)
Sorry that I can't scientifically prove Gann
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 5:58:58 PM)
Its a tool, not magick.
bobcathy1 (Apr 11, 2003 5:59:11 PM)
And I thought I was hot stuff because I understand Fibbs.
PuffyGums (Apr 11, 2003 6:01:19 PM)
Sornettes book explains why there are cycles in time and price.
Concering time- groups of people need a certain amount of time
to process new events. In terms of price, people are sensitive
to exponential changes in price (squares)- its the way they process
data. No magic here. Fairly scientific foundation for the validity
of price and time cycles.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 6:01:45 PM)
Great point, Puffy
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 6:02:08 PM)
Nice Puffy.
PuffyGums (Apr 11, 2003 6:02:20 PM)
Sornette - Why Stock Markets Crash
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 6:02:40 PM)
Time for Amazon.com for me.
Wolf (Apr 11, 2003 6:02:52 PM)
I find that individual equity's are like children and have a mind
of their own irregardless of what their parents (market) say.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 6:03:15 PM)
Wolf... can you elaborate?
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 6:03:17 PM)
Wolf, cool analogy.
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 6:03:27 PM)
The nature of that perception is what I'm talking about. The issue
really is then: are people's perceptions a universal factor based
on some "genetic factor" or eductaion? Or is it simply
a representation of the way our brain is structured to process
information due to the physical construction?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 6:03:50 PM)
I would stick to Hume...
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 6:03:57 PM)
Potentially the "collective unconcious" TraderM.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 6:04:07 PM)
Colective experience.
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 6:04:58 PM)
But, given the huge sample of people, I would suggest that the
markets disprove the idea of a "collective".
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 6:05:19 PM)
I atttempt to use Gann and TA to exploit these persistant psychologically
biases.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 6:05:44 PM)
TraderM, what do you mean b y that ?
bobcathy1 (Apr 11, 2003 6:06:05 PM)
Over analyizing anything diminishes the returns you get.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 6:06:09 PM)
It takes a collective to move the market.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 6:06:24 PM)
Or should I say, to sustain a move.
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 6:06:34 PM)
But the collective, in a conventional sense, represents the sharing
of information.
bobcathy1 (Apr 11, 2003 6:06:44 PM)
I suggest that psychology plays a greater part in the market than
anything.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 6:06:45 PM)
Like the massive bull market.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 6:06:52 PM)
True.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 6:07:04 PM)
Information is shared just interpreted differnetly.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 6:07:26 PM)
Agreed.
bobcathy1 (Apr 11, 2003 6:07:47 PM)
It is all what gets you into the trade.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 6:07:48 PM)
But the purpose of TA or any analysis is to exploit a pattern.
Wolf (Apr 11, 2003 6:07:53 PM)
Now your talking about predicting momentum... up and down
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 6:07:59 PM)
I just read my reply to that Surf, and I think I'm getting waaaaay
off topic, so I'll refrain from posting it.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 6:08:30 PM)
Wolf, I use Gann to capture momentum by my channel figures, not
to predict it.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 6:08:55 PM)
Let me ask you then... is there a pattern?
bobcathy1 (Apr 11, 2003 6:08:58 PM)
I think the pattern we are trying to find is momentum.... I am
into trend lines and volume spikes.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 6:09:05 PM)
In time? With reaction to price?
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 6:09:13 PM)
Yes, absolutely.
Wolf (Apr 11, 2003 6:09:39 PM)
Me too...
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 6:09:39 PM)
I would go as far to say price is more important than time, from
a practical trading aspect.
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 6:09:53 PM)
Especially if you're trading April options on IBM!
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 6:09:55 PM)
They are equal in my opinion.
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 6:10:04 PM)
I would say, collective changes in price is from time.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 6:10:09 PM)
With time potentially being more important, that is why gann squares
price and time.
TraderMaceo (Apr 11, 2003 6:10:29 PM)
So, how do you prove that time outweighs price?
WD Gann (Apr 11, 2003 6:10:44 PM)
I'm sticking with Momentum but how it changes is more important
than price and time separated.
marketsurfer (Apr 11, 2003 6:10:44 PM)
Because of our finate lives as traders.
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